Tell Your Story!

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. So, here's the bottom line. The more the world around us wants to silence us, which is always going to be the case.

It's exaggerated in today's cancel culture. It's always been the case that the darkness will try to snuff out the light and that those who are testifying of Jesus will face opposition. We understand that. But the more there is an attempt to silence us, the more we speak up, the more we speak out, the more we shout our message with love, with wisdom, with truth to the world around us. We let our light shine. And if we do that together, we will not be canceled or silenced or muzzled or banned or banished. No one can bind the Word of God and stop it. Welcome, friends, to the Line of Fire broadcast. This is Michael Brown. Delighted to be with you. I am working on a book to come out early next year, a major book that really exposed what's happening in today's cancel culture and the attempt to silence us and muzzle us.

But well over half of the book is one strategy after another, how to push back, how to stand, how to fight. And one area in particular that has become tremendously controversial is the idea of someone being ex-gay. Used to be a practicing homosexual.

No longer is. We've been told for years that those people do not exist. Such people do not exist.

Why? Because if they do exist, then the whole idea of being gay as a civil right, just like skin color, ethnicity, you're born this way. You cannot change if someone can change. And that undermines the whole gay civil rights or trans civil rights argument. Doesn't mean that you mistreat people, but it means that you do not equate sexual or romantic desire or attraction or gender perceptions with skin color or race, because those things, gender identity, perceptions, sexual attractions, desire, those are not innate and immutable. They're not something you were born with and things that cannot be changed.

So if, in fact, someone can change, that's a threat to the whole narrative. And that's why there is such a massive effort to silence those who are ex-gay, ex-trans. Bottom of the hour, we'll speak with Ken Williams and hear his own story of coming out of homosexuality. 866-344-TRUTH.

866-348-7884. If you yourself used to be caught up in same-sex attraction, if you were caught up in homosexual relations, if you identified as gay or lesbian or bisexual or queer or trans, you suffered from deep gender identity confusion. If that's you and through the gospel, you are not who you used to be. If that's you and you have been changed, feel free to call. And if for some reason, because your testimony not being as well known or people you're close to not knowing a lot about your background, if you want to call them anonymously, you don't have to say where you're calling from. Make up a name if you like.

That's fine. Love to hear your story as well. Hey, I'm Jewish, so I had to turn away from the traditions of my family to follow Jesus. And I was a heavy drug user.

That was a bigger issue than me being Jewish. And to the core of my being, I wanted to play in a rock band like I was doing, be a rock star and get high and living an ungodly life. And to the core core of my being, I was prideful and full of sin. Jesus saves. He changes us from the inside out.

866-348-7884. Before we go further with that and share some more good news with you, some sobering thoughts. It is very clear that when you go in a wrong direction, when you start off a little bit off the path and you keep going, going, going, the further you go, the more heretical you'll be. So if you start with a theological error and don't correct it and then build on it and build on it and build on it and build on it and build on it, before you know it, you are in full blown heresy. So I have dialogue with people who say, oh no, I'm a Bible believing gay Christian. Or I'm an evangelical gay Christian. I believe in the authority of scripture. But you're misinterpreting the Bible. The Bible approves committed monogamous same sex relationships. It's the promiscuity and pedophilia and prostitution that the Bible is against. But if it's same sex committed relationship, you can be a gay Christian. God approves of that. So they start with this very serious fundamental theological error.

And then it gets worse and worse and worse. And they embrace all kinds of other heresies. They have a deficient view of who God is. They have a deficient view of scripture.

They will now open up to some type of a universalism that everybody gets in. I've just watched it over the years. A few years ago, I was invited at National Religious Broadcasters to be part of a dialogue with a couple of Christian leaders, a woman who's ex-gay herself, and then also there would be a couple of guys that identified as gay Christian. Justin Lee and Brandon Robertson had a meal with Justin before the event. Very gracious interaction we had. And then after the event, met with Brandon, sat and talked with him at some length. And he wanted me to know that he was evangelical. He wanted me to know he believed in the things of the Spirit. He wanted me to know he believed in the authority of scripture. I told him, you are going off the deep end. You will veer further and further into heresy.

So I want to play two clips. It's very sad. It's very sad. I prayed for Brandon many a time, and my heart goes out to him. But right now, he's not just deceived. He's deceiving others.

If you hear his voice, if you see his face, remember to pray as the Lord burdens you to do so. He is playing a clip of an extremist Baptist preacher they actually had on the air to challenge. An extremist who every Christian I know considers an extremist. And this guy was celebrating the massacre at the Pulse Bar in Florida where so many gays and lesbians were slaughtered by a fanatical Islamic shooter. So listen to this clip. Are you sad that 50 pedophiles were killed today?

No. In this video, a Baptist preacher is saying that he's glad that 50 LGBT people were killed in the Pulse nightclub shooting. He calls them pedophiles, and later he goes on to say this was a blessing because it helps make society safer. If you are a non-affirming Christian, if you are teaching that homosexuality is a sin and that you can't be gay and Christian, this is where your theology leads. It naturally leads to this kind of extreme speech.

It naturally leads to these kind of beliefs that it's better for there to be less LGBT people, that LGBT people should be marginalized and even killed. This is the natural fruit of non-affirming teaching. This is what you believe. Jesus says, you shall know the truth by its fruit. This is the fruit that non-affirming teaching bears. It does not bear the fruit of the Spirit, but of death and destruction.

So actually, of course, it's bogus on every level. So the guy preaching at the beginning is a fanatic who does not have God's heart whatsoever and needs to be soundly rebuked. Is every Christian leader I know on the planet would soundly rebuke that nonsense, rejoicing that gays and lesbians and others were mowed down in that bar?

That's the first thing. So to make that, that's the norm. No, if that was the norm, that's where the church would have been for 2,000 years. To the contrary, when you have a heart for the gospel, you want everyone saved. Jesus died for gay and straight just the same. Jesus shed his blood for every human being. And when you have God's heart, you weep for these people, whoever they are, be it an atheist, be it a Buddhist, be it a practicing homosexual, whoever it is, you weep for them and want them to be saved.

And that's the love that you show them. And if the fruit was otherwise, judge your tree by its fruit, Jesus said, if the fruit was otherwise, we'd see massive slaughter of gays, lesbians, we'd see churches all across the nation rejoicing at the news of a gay person being killed. It is quite the opposite, quite the contrary.

So the facts are 100% the opposite of what Brandon says. But if you want to see the fruit, here's what he said that's true, judge your tree by its fruit, you want to see the fruit of a faulty theology. Yeah, you see it with this one fanatical preacher rejoicing in the death of homosexuals. So that's the fruit of a hateful theology that's unrelated to the Bible, which offers repentance and new life to all. But here's the fruit of quote gay Christianity. You end up throwing out the Bible or creating a new Jesus and a new Bible.

So this is terribly sad. My heart goes out to Brandon. May the Lord bring him to repentance. He went to Moody Bible Institute. He had a foundation in scripture, but because he interpreted the Bible through the lens of his sexual desires and romantic attractions, he ended up rewriting the Bible.

Look at this. Did you know that there's a part of the Gospel of Mark where Jesus uses a racial slur? In Mark chapter seven, there's the account of the Saraphanesian woman, a woman who is Syrian and Greek, both of which there were strong biases against within the Jewish community. And she comes to ask Jesus to heal her daughter who's possessed by a demon. And what is Jesus's response? He says, it's not good for me to give the children's food, meaning the children of Israel's food to dogs.

He calls her a dog. What's amazing about this account is that the woman doesn't back down. She speaks truth to power. She confronts Jesus and says, well, you can think that about me, but even dogs deserve the crumbs from the table. Her boldness and bravery to speak truth to power actually changes Jesus mind. Jesus repents of his racism and extends healing to this woman's daughter.

I love this story because it's a reminder that Jesus is human. He had prejudices and bias and when confronted with it, he was willing to do his work. And this woman was willing to stand up and speak truth. So this is what happens, friends. And this is what we warned about.

I warned Brandon to his face. You will end up rewriting the Bible and recreating Jesus. So now the Jesus of this professing gay or queer Christian, however, he would identify and pastor the Jesus of this young man is now the figment of his own imagination, a racist who needs to repent of his racism. If Jesus was a racist who needed to repent of his racism, he was not the son of God. He was not the one of whom the scriptures spoke. He was not himself without sin. Therefore, he was not the sin the sacrifice for our sins. Therefore, he can redeem no one. This is the price you pay when you put whatever fleshly desires or theological error first and read the Bible through that lens.

You end up with full blown heresy. I warned about it in the forum. I warned even more strongly face to face with Brandon.

And now he had maybe he's made statements like this before. This was just brought to my attention this week, has officially shouted to the whole world that he denies the Jesus of the Bible in the name of gay Christianity. It's a pity, friends, but this is the way heresy works. Interpret your life through the word of God.

Don't interpret the word of God through your life. We'll be right back. We're going to take some of your calls.

It's 6634 truth. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural and spiritual revolution here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks, friends, for joining us today on the line of fire.

Bottom of the hour, we'll be joined by Ken Williams. Got his book right over here, The Journey Out How I Followed Jesus Away from Gay Friends. You might say, why is this an issue you've talked about a lot over the last 15, 16 years? Well, the Lord laid on my heart in 2004 that the great cultural and moral challenge that would come to the Church of America would be LGBTQ activism. And the word that God spoke to my heart was reach out and resist, reach out to the people with compassion, resist the agenda with courage, reach out and resist. We need hearts of compassion and backbones of steel. So with broken hearts, reaching out to those who don't know the Lord showing love, compassion, grace, sensitivity and standing boldly and firmly against an agenda is going to try to crush you and humiliate you and marginalize you and mock you, because it's not the two or three percent of Americans who identify as gay or lesbian. It's big business standing with them, corporate media standing with them, big tech standing with them.

So it is now the force of much of the society to marginalize and to silence and to cancel. And again, one of the most important testimonies to share is to share if you came out of homosexuality, if God delivered you from that, if he changed you. I've got a book here. Reach out and get it. Just a little children's reader.

The Gay BCS. We played a clip last week or so of a little child, maybe toddler memorized the pages, but I mean, it's D is for drag. How do you like that?

You can strut and dance and clothes that you love, dresses, heels or pants. Children's reader. C is for coming out.

Q is for queer. And on and on it goes. That's what little children are being taught. I'm going to respond to that. I'm going to grieve over that. I'm going to speak out against that. At the same time, if you're my next door neighbor, your lesbian couple or undo my best to be the very best neighbor, I can and genuinely show you the love of God as human beings that he cares for. Reach out and resist. Reach out to the people with compassion. Resist the agenda with courage. It's a way that we overcome cancel culture. All right, let's let's go to the phones.

We'll start in Frankfurt, Kentucky. Denise, welcome to the line of fire. Hey, Dr. Brown. Hey. Um, I just wanted to let you know about three years ago, you all did a debate. You and James White did down in Florida.

Yeah. And it was with those two ministers that were gay, the woman and the man. Mm hmm. And about a day after that, I was thinking about it and God took me to my knees over it because, you know, the Bible, some of the Bible didn't apply to me. You know, my ego was about as big as Mount Everest because, you know, the Old Testament was just the Old Testament. And actually, Paul, he hated women. So he had to write what he had to write and all this.

And we know so much more now and gay people weren't around back then and all this. So after I, after I watched your video, I'm like, does everybody think like I do? My ego was, my ego was still up there, you know, and then I saw Matthew Vines and Sean McDowell. Sean McDowell.

Yeah, Sean McDowell. And he was talking about how much of a curse it would be for all gay people who were born that way. God made them born that way for them to be abstinent.

It would be like cursing a whole community of people. And I'm like, okay, well, let's look at it this way. Justin Peters has, um, uh, terrible palsy. Does he really feel like God is making, being mean to him because he has terrible palsy?

No. Justin Peter says, you know, in this life, if he has had cerebral palsy, it's fine because in heaven, we want, he won't have, he will have it forever. So he won't have it forever. So if I have to give up sex on this life because it pleases God, then I don't have that.

That's my only worry now. So I'm just saying that anybody who says that God cannot take them out of this does not want God to take them out of this. So Denise, you're saying that you had believed some false talking points as well and that during that debate, God really opened your eyes to wrong beliefs in you and you had to get down on your knees and say, God, you are God. I don't judge you.

You judge me. That's what happened. Actually, he took me to my knees because I was watching something on Twitter and it was a lesbian from Canada and I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, and she was talking to me about it, you know, and then God took me to my knees and I was actually on my knees, Dr. Brown. And I had, I deleted all of my friends on Facebook, all my friends on Twitter, all my friends, you know, that were gay. And I used to watch videos on YouTube. Now I only watch debates and all that. Now, did you yourself ever identify as lesbian or you just were friends and you changed your theology because of that?

Oh, no, I've lived a lesbian lifestyle since I got out of my parents' house for years. Really? Yeah. Wow. So that was the turning point for you?

Yeah, seeing that debate. Incredible. What, what an amazing story. And yeah, it was, you know, the truth is so obvious when you watch that. And, you know, we felt bad for those on the other side, praying for them to come to repentance.

So you're in. So it's not just the sex part, it's the romantic relationships and things like that. And you're saying that Jesus is more than enough for you right now?

Yes. And the thing is, I was involved with somebody when I was watching that. And they're supposed to be a Christian, just like me. And I told them what happened. And they said, no way. And I'm like, yeah, way. We got to break up.

That's, you know, we got to break up. So anybody who comes to me and tells me that they're a lesbian Christian or a gay Christian, I'm like, no, you're not. You're either Christian or you're not. Because either you respect Scripture and do what Scripture tells you to do, or you don't.

And if you don't, then you're not a Christian. You know, there's a gentleman who identifies as ex-gay follower of Jesus now. And he was asked, can you be gay and Christian? He said, not for long. Meaning if you really get saved and converted, you're going to change. So Denise, are you enjoying your relationship with the Lord? You said no to these things.

You came under conviction. Can you talk about what your relationship with the Lord is like now? Well, I'm in the middle of the book of Isaiah, starting at Genesis. So, I mean, I'm back in my, back in Scripture again. And to tell you the truth, Dr. Brown, he just didn't take, he just didn't take the sexuality away.

He took all desire. I can look at a woman now and not even feel anything. Come on. He did make me straight. He did not make me straight. I understand. Because I'm still not attracted to women. I mean men.

But I can look at a woman and do not, my mind does not even go there. You know, sex has been taken completely out of my life. Amazing. And I'm happy about that.

That's the power of the Gospel. Hey Denise, can I ask how old you are? Yeah, I'm 54. 54. So you're talking about decades of living the way you were living. Yeah, I started it when I was 27. Wow. All right, so that's half your life.

27 years. You lived that long in sin and, quote, lesbian Christian, gay Christian, whatever. And then the truth of the Gospel set you free. I bet people were praying for you also, because that's... Yeah, my mama, my mama, before she died, that's the sad thing.

It was because she died before I could let her know that she was telling me the truth. She had all the scripture. I mean, because I said, prove it in the Bible, the scripture that applies to me, that says that I can't be this way.

And she, okay, well next time I saw her, she brought me a whole list. And I'm like, okay, that's just Old Testament, that's New Testament, that's Paul. None of it is Jesus, you know, so no, you know, unless God tells me that it's wrong, I'm not going to believe it. And whenever you say that, God tells you. Well, you saw the sincerity of your heart also.

Hey, Denise, that is amazing and wonderful news. And I'm going to let James White and Sean McDonald, they were part of this. And listen, do you have my book, Can You Be Gay and Christian? No, I swear I don't.

All right. We'll tell you what, stay right there. And Rachel is going to get your contact info, which we'll keep private. And I want to send you a signed copy of my book, Can You Be Gay and Christian, just to celebrate what God has done in your life. Hey, friends, that's the power of the gospel.

That's the real deal. I heard it for the first time here from Denise, just as you did. Great news, Denise. So Rachel is going to get your info. We're going to send you that book, Can You Be Gay and Christian?

Friends, here's the good news. Jesus said that if you continue my word, you'll be my disciples indeed. And you'll know the truth, and the truth will set you free. Everyone experiences things differently. Some instant transformation have literally gone from gay to straight. Others, they just have victory now to say no to the desires and attractions. Others, little by little, see change come.

Others, delivered from the attraction to one, but don't get the attraction to the other, and they're quite fine. Let God be God. Let God be God. But let us rejoice in the life-changing, transforming power of the gospel of Jesus. He is always making intercession for us.

He saves to the uttermost. You'll hear another testimony when we come back. I'll get you some more calls later in the show.

Stay right here. It's The Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into The Line of Fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. I want to encourage you, friends, if you have a testimony of transformation in your own life, tell your story, especially if it's established, especially if the change has been there long term, you've been walking it out. Don't be ashamed of Jesus. Don't be ashamed of the power of the gospel. Don't be ashamed to tell your story. It's how we overcome the silencing and the intimidation and the canceling of our witness by speaking out all the more loudly and clearly.

Michael Brown, welcome to the broadcast. Just moments ago, got an amazing call from Denise, 54 years old, from the age of 27 on. She was living as a lesbian, claimed to be a lesbian Christian, had all the answers, all the talking points, rejected the arguments that her mother would bring to her. And then while watching a debate with Dr. James White and me, her eyes were opened. God literally brought her to her knees in repentance.

Then watching Sean McDowell, Matthew Vines, interact further solidified. And God has delivered her from same-sex attraction, sexual desire for women. She's not attracted to men, but free and clear and Jesus first and loving it. How amazing.

Well, what a great call to get right before I bring on with me Ken Williams. I've got this book right here, The Journey Out, How I Followed Jesus Away from Gay. This is what I said in my endorsement of the book. Ken Williams's inspirational and brutally honest story describes how God's grace is powerful enough to overcome any obstacle. Those struggling with same-sex attraction are those with loved ones who are will be encouraged to know that change and transformation are possible through the gospel. The world says people like Ken do not exist.

His testimony shouts back that all things are possible in Jesus. Ken, thanks so much for joining us today on the line of fire. Are you there? Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm here. Hey, Dr. Brown, how are you? Good, good.

Great to talk with you almost face to face, at least by phone. So, Ken, like many others who identify as gay, you never felt like you fit in with the boys. How young were you, as far as you remember, that you felt like you didn't fit? I remember being very uncomfortable walking into kindergarten and feeling like the other kids were making fun of me. And, you know, it wasn't typically the boys who made fun of you. It was the girls.

It was the other boys that would make fun of you. So, I didn't fit as early as kindergarten. And did you wonder, did you try to figure out what it was? I don't know if I did at that time. I don't remember exactly what that was like, but I can tell you, I just felt like I'm an outsider and I wanted to be in. Of course, when you're five, it's not unless you've been sexually violated or something, it's not a sexual thing. It just was an inability to bond with those that were like me. It wasn't, you know, all the boys over here doing this. But I mean, I was skinny, scrawny, short kid. And so it probably some of it started there, Dr. Brown. It was like, you know, boys that age, it's like or almost any age. It's like, oh, we were a little competitive. We want to conquer.

We want to build something or knock something over. And I wanted to talk deeply about feelings and opt out of the whole, try to be stronger than the other guy thing. And were you raised in a religious home at all? I was.

I was. I got saved dramatically at eight years old, in that it was an emotional experience for me. And I remember weeping, having seen a Jesus video over what Jesus did to purchase, you know, to set me free from my sins as an eight year old. But we had no understanding, though, of, hey, the Holy Spirit is present today to heal, to comfort, to counsel. I had no idea that I might be able to hear from the Lord personally. So, you know, I had, I had, quote, fire insurance, you know, in my mind, but I didn't know there was, he was an ever-present help.

So when you began to realize that you were same-sex attracted, I imagine starting to come into puberty and these things become real to you. It's got to be a bit of a crisis. Big time. I remember the major crisis was I've just been babysitting this kid and I watched this movie while he's asleep. And the movie is the story. It's my story. I was, I was in my early teens at that point.

So was this boy. And he realizes he's gay. And as the Hollywood story goes, you know, well, there's nothing that can be done. We're all just going to have to embrace this life of yours. And I was, I mean, I was, I was literally traumatized, Dr. Brown, because though I realized, oh my gosh, this is my story. I can relate to his story better than any other persons I've ever heard.

This is not what I want for my life. Yes, I'm sexually attracted to other males. However, I don't want to have sex with one. So you must have prayed. Did you talk to anybody about it? Did you talk to anyone about it? You couldn't.

No, no. Yeah, not at that time, because, you know, how many, how many messages had I heard either on television, just, you know, secular television, or even at church here or there, or in the hallways after church, you know, about how, you know, homosexuality is basically the worst sin. And so when you find yourself with same sex attraction, the church is not a safe place, if that's the environment you've been raised in. And if God's not present to actually help you, why even discuss it? You know, so, no, I was very depressed. And then a couple years later, was suicidal over it.

Yeah, and Ken, it's so important that we hear this, because we must create an environment in our youth meetings, in our homes, in our church services, where someone struggling with anything is able to come and say, hey, I'm struggling with it. I don't know what to do with this. This is who I am. And people are like, oh, I can't touch her. You?

I can't. It's like, all right, hey, let's talk about that. And hey, every one of us has fallen and needs a Savior, needs help, and God can change and do anything. So let's sit down and talk.

Love you, man. And we're here for you, you know, parents with your kids. And we get so spooked and we react, and it's almost like you've got cooties.

And if I touch you, I'm going to catch something. And it's terrible. And it's been the way, even if people have love, they just don't show it, or they don't know how to respond. And because we see the activism and the bad stuff in the society, well, we're fighting that, but it gives you the feeling we're fighting you.

And so we've got to do better. And it's by sharing these things openly and honestly that this happens. Friend, again, get hold of this book, Ken Williams, and the title, The Journey Out.

Read it. If you yourself are struggling with same-sex attraction, gender confusion, get it. If you've got a friend or loved one, family member that's struggling, this will give you hope.

And it'll also help you understand some of the journey. So was there a point in your life where you thought you could be a practicing gay Christian or you realized it's one or the other? No, there really wasn't. I know that for some people that happens.

For me, it's like I always had a pretty clear dividing line in my mind of what God wanted from me and my behavior. So it just never was. I was looking for a better me.

It wasn't even at its root. Usually homosexuality at its root is not sexual, it's relational. It's about an intimacy deficit.

So I was looking for a better version of me. And so, did it go sexual? Yeah. Did it become porn and some sexually acting out?

Yeah, it did. But even if I obliged those temptations, it still left me wanting 30 minutes later. So it never scratched the itch. So how is it now that you are who you are today? Obviously, again, it's in your book, The Journey Out. And we could talk for hours about the whole process of how you got where you were. But you were living in sin.

It's inevitable. This is who I am. And God is not active in my life to do anything about it. There's no one I can talk to. So you go the way of the flesh.

But that does not scratch the itch, as you said. You act the thing out and you're still hurting on the inside. So how old were you when the journey back to the Lord began? I was in my early 20s, probably 24, 25. This is an hour-long story, I'll say in a few seconds. But basically, I had a radical physical, a supernatural encounter, a healing in my physical body that I had for five years. A friend laid hands on me and bam, pain left.

I had a full-on deliverance experience. And I realized, my takeaway was, I can't believe that God did this for me, because I got that illness by drinking five beers in 20 minutes and passing out in my fraternity. So who is this God that is good enough to excuse my sin and heal me when I didn't deserve it? Oh my gosh, that must mean that he's good. And furthermore, this must translate to my sexuality, because if God says homosexuality is sin, he's not diabolical.

He's actually good, so he must have some solutions for me. Yeah, so encountering God. There's no substitute, friends. You can see doctrine is foundational. Doctrine is critically important. The Word of God is eternally true. But the Word of God tells us about a God who is alive and whom we encounter in a living way, so that we have fellowship with the Spirit and experience the life and power of the Spirit. So that touch gave you a revelation of the goodness of God. And if that sickness was a bad thing that he took away, then it could be the same with same-sex attraction. What a glorious hour-long condensation into a few seconds. But again, that's the power of the Gospel. That's why we must preach the Word and the life-giving power of the Spirit. So Ken, what happened to get you from there to now being an open ex-gay leader?

What was the process that took place? I fell in love with God. I had to have more of him, you know?

I was like, oh my gosh, there's more. And so I just camped out at the Bible bookstore and stuff like that, just devouring all of these truths that my mind had been blinded to. I had not been able to see how good God was. Even in Scripture, there was a veil over my eyes.

And once that was removed, I pursued him. At every revival meeting I could find where people were being touched by God. And it was basic discipleship, really. I mean, I had done five years of weekly Christian psychology, and as much as that helped me grow and become healthier, it never touched this issue directly for me. But discipleship and being in a loving community of faith-filled, Spirit-led people, and being mentored by men who treated me just like every other guy but had grace for my struggle and all that, you know, eventually won out. Yeah, and I've talked to others, ex-gay, and they said the bottom line is discipleship and really knowing the Lord. All right, listen, if you can just stay over another minute on the other side of the break, there's more to the story, like a wife and four kids and an open, unashamed ex-gay leader. Friends, get the book The Journey Out by Ken Williams. All right, a couple more minutes with Ken on the other side of the break.

And if you can still hold, I want to get to a couple more calls before we're done, so stay right here. It's The Line of Fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Get into The Line of Fire now by calling 866-342. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Friend, this is one of the most important things we can do, share stories like this because the world says Ken Williams does not exist. The world says he's just faking it because to acknowledge that you're not born this way, that this is not innate and immutable, to acknowledge that change is possible is to undermine the whole LGBTQ civil rights movement that says this is who you are, just like race and ethnicity.

This is the power of the gospel, friends, to transform. And there are so many like Ken, he's written a book, he's actively involved, he has a public voice, so many others that are serving quietly and that's fine. They don't want to share as much of their background.

But if you have a story that you can tell, tell it. There's an attempt to silence. Books like this get removed.

Yeah, removed, banned. So it takes courage in today's world to stand. But hey, bottom line, Ken loves Jesus enough that that's all that matters. So Ken, in your own journey with the Lord, it doesn't end with you getting delivered and having Jesus as your best friend and God as your Father and all that. That's the beginning of the amazing journey. At what point did you realize that you were attracted either to the woman you married or to women in general?

What point did that happen? Yeah, it snuck up on me. I did not expect it, but I just started noticing this young lady that was in the young adult group that I was helping lead at my church, and I'd gotten to know her in the group of friends over the last year, and I just respected her so much. I was like, man, this woman is righteous and pure and lovely. And then one evening, I just found myself keeping looking over there at her, and I noticed that she had beautiful long hair and this sparkly belt on, and I'm like, gosh, she's really beautiful. And then I realized, I don't do this. I've only been tempted to do that with other guys. And so, yeah, I think it was 10 or 11 months later we were married, and that was in 2006, and we have four children together, and I'm living the life that I knew would never be possible. It was just unfathomable, because I wanted to be attracted to ladies, but that could never be consistent.

I broke so many, not tons, but several girls' hearts trying to date them, and had just worn off until I was like, Lord, unless this is genuine transformation inside of me, I'm not going to mess with another girl's heart. But it caught me off guard, and I fell in love. Yeah, that's just so heartwarming. And to hear the life in your own voice, the life, the joy, the reality of Jesus. Friends, it's not just hitting people over the head with the Bible, you have to change, this is sin.

It's saying, yeah, this is sin, and this is destructive, but Jesus transforms us. He's a living savior. You know, the revelation I got of the love of God after months of conviction because of my drug use and living as a rebel, hard-hearted rebel, full of pride and anger. When I got a revelation of the love of God, that's when I said, I can never touch this again. And in one moment of time, I said, I'll never put a needle in my arm again. When I was 16 years old in 1971, it's just amazing to see what God can do.

And I've been and obviously your wife and kids are thrilled as well with God's amazing power. What would you tell someone? Obviously, it's in the book. Friends, again, get the book, Ken Williams, The Journey Out. But what would you tell someone right now that's struggling to say, hey, man, I tried. I tried. I went to therapy, and I went to counseling, and I prayed, and nothing happened to me. So maybe that's your story. It's not mine. What would you tell that person?

Oh, man, I'd be looking for a mentor around that I could trust. I'm not one to preach at them, but really listen. Because I'm telling you that by and large, people that find themselves with LGBTQ feelings are in pain.

Lots of times immense pain, and it's been there so long, they may not even be aware of it. But when we really do what Jesus did and come close to the one in pain, and we listen and we care, then we can start to hear from God and just from their story the keys to their heart, the keys to offer healing. It's amazing what God can do when we lean in rather than try to preach at people, which is what the Lord showed me as far as that discipleship model that's in the book that he downloaded to me while I was in the shower one day. He showed, hey, this is the things I took you through, Ken, and this is how you were healed, because it was so gradual.

I had to look back on it to figure out how he did it. But one of the keys was walking with other believers and being valuable to them so that I could start to see, wait a minute, I can fit among other men. It's not that I'm different from them.

I'm actually more different from the females than I am from the males. Yeah, so that's my thoughts on that. Amazing.

Yeah, so friends, practical steps in the book as well. Ken, we haven't met face to face, interacted with your colleague Elizabeth, some via email as well, but one of these days, either in California or some other place, we'll get to meet face to face and rejoice in the goodness of God. We will help shout your story out to the world. God bless you, man, and thanks for being who you are. Thank you so much. God bless you. All right. Well, that's refreshing, refreshing and life-giving. I hope you're encouraged, friends.

It's 6634 Truth. Let's go over to Granite Falls, Washington. It's a nice name. I've never heard of it before. But Royce, welcome to the broadcast. Thank you, Dr. Brown. First-time caller, long-time listener.

Well, thank you. Enjoying the show. Interact with you a bit on me, we and Facebook. And are you on par as well, I think. But yeah, we've interacted just a tad bit.

I'm enjoying the show. But I wanted to inform you of something, make a quick comment and then ask you a question because they're related. Yeah. Are you aware of an individual by the name of Cremaine Booker? No.

Well, he's known, evidently, as the cello guy. And a Facebook post showed up on my wall, and it is a picture of a woman's hand with what looks like an engagement or wedding ring. She's covering her name, but she shows Church of Christ and what follows. And I won't read the whole thing, but it basically just says, for the past several weeks, we have made several attempts to contact you. And the short of it is, evidently, she is living with another man in an inappropriate relationship. And this letter appears to be the final request, actually pleading for her to, you know, to leave this before they take her before the congregation and excommunicator.

The post has garnered over 4,300 comments and replies. And I will tell you, they run about 99% to one on a biblical nature. Obviously, this is hateful. How dare they? This is why I don't go to church. I mean, the full gamut from obvious God haters on there that, you know, just are rabidly anti-Christian, anti-church, anti-God, to many pastors, the same-sex-affirming churches, all of, you know, the love and everything. So I'm having a hard time here.

I always get nervous. Yeah, all right. So bottom line is that this is something you're coming across and wanted my input or comment on. Look, here's the first thing. I don't know the person, the situation, and anything whatsoever, so I'm just hearing what you're saying. All we know is the letter. We don't know anything about the church or what they did or anything.

Right, so just... The question that I have for you is, when you talked about sitting down with Brandon Robertson, doesn't there come a time when Paul tells us and actually calls out, I believe it's seven or eight heretics, and he says, mark them, avoid them, don't even eat with them. Doesn't there come a time when the loving thing to do is to tell Brandon and those who are leading people on the wide and easy road in the name of love and in the name of Christ, which is the most evil thing I can imagine, I'm sorry, but you are not a Christian, and if...

Right, right. So let me just jump in only because of time constraints here before the show ends. So number one, I told him in the clearest possible terms that he was in sin and deceived and was not right with God, in the clearest possible terms, and told him he was heading for destruction and that he was deeply deceived already, and made it clear in the public forum that he needed to be quiet, get low, get low, study the word, find out who he was, find out what God said, become a real disciple, as opposed to trying to teach the whole world. And I've warned him since, in even stronger terms, privately, and then had to cut him off because of harassing posts and things like that. But this was the one and only time that we met, and I met with him and made clear that he was in sin and not living rightly and warned him. So here's the deal, if there's someone within the body that claims to be a follower of Jesus, they're part of your local church, and they're living in open, blatant sin, not struggling and saying, hey, I need help, but unrepentant sin, so you meet with them privately, two or three witnesses, bring before the congregation, if they refuse to repent, then yes, the loving thing to do is you excommunicate them, you put them out. Now, perhaps the people on that website or the Facebook page or social media, they're not even saved, that's why they're reacting the way they're reacting.

But a true believer would recognize if someone is claiming to be a follower of Jesus, this guy leaves his wife, he's sleeping with another woman, they're both coming to church in adultery, claiming to be followers of Jesus, they won't repent, of course, you excommunicate them. But you better believe before that, I'm going to sit with them face to face and give them the loudest, clearest possible warning I can, as I sought to do with Brandon years ago, may the Lord have mercy and grant repentance. Hey friends, did you get my emails? Be sure you do, go to askdrbrown.org, take you 30 seconds or less to sign up and you'll be blessed with what you get, askdrbrown.org, join us there. Another program powered by the Truth Network.