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Different Perspectives on Trump, the Church, and Nationalism

Line of Fire / Dr. Michael Brown
The Truth Network Radio
December 23, 2020 5:10 pm

Different Perspectives on Trump, the Church, and Nationalism

Line of Fire / Dr. Michael Brown

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December 23, 2020 5:10 pm

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Dr. Michael Brown

Friends and about to have a friendly discussion with Pastor Shane Seidelman will talk about companies and Christian nationalism and loyalty to our country.

Loyalty to God what is been misunderstanding among brothers and sisters will will seek to model a discussion for you today. Right here on the line of fire stage for the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of ministry getting to the line of fire valves like always 866-34-TRUTH that's 866-34-TRUTH euro.

Jim is Dr. Michael Brown. If there's one thing that's clear in Scripture is that God is called his people to be gone. God's call this people to unite around Jesus and to unite around the fundamental truth that he is laid out in his word and the fundamental principles of life. Jesus prayed that we would be one Paul urges to be one. The psalmist talks about the blessing that comes with unity when God's people are together as one and we are right now in a tremendously divisive time in America, not just in America within the church as well, and many people who love the Lord and and seem to be fighting for the same larger goals and causes find themselves missing each other. Misunderstanding each other even dividing so the whole purpose of today's broadcast is to try to flesh out some of the differences similar perspectives. What I mean when I say something with someone here is when I say that so that we can unite around what really matters not minimize our differences, not discard them not throw away truth in principle and disable Kumbaya will all be one, but no one in a substantial way really understand the things that are most important to God and one another and by honoring one another and honoring him computers one because right now America is falling apart, but the church has the solution of the gospel, this is Michael Brown.

Welcome to the line of fire to bring on immediately with me a dear brother, a colleague finally got to meet face-to-face early this year, preach for him meet his amazing family and and I have been so inch for inch heart-to-heart with Shane Heideman for years now. Before he reached out to me and we got to know each other. I was a Manning his columns. I felt like I could just put my name at the end of his articles, which are the same hard for the purity of the gospel for repentance for holiness for revival for evangelism and then recently we seem to be kind of on an different sizes, different subjects, so that got us talking and chances what we have this discussion on here so Pastor Shane, welcome to the broadcast. Thanks much for joining us are welcome.

It's good to be back at this time we are and we are at odds a little bit like you said, but I think it's healthy because people especially right now they have to understand or learn how to have a healthy discussion without getting mean and nasty and angry, and not just be honest and transparent. I don't have any problem doing this you when you are in one of your emails.

You mention it, maybe I'm not looking at the other side of my articles and I'm not really relating to the other side and and I don't business or disagree with. I think if if I've something to work on. That's probably an area I have to work on for sure that it started I started thinking. Could you mention your distro down. We want to unite around important matters at the now searchable.

Why are we uniting what what's going on and I saw in your articles maybe you maybe a push against how I'm thinking and believing that you felt the same way.

So I say let's just get it out there for people to hear because this is a very important topic, especially right now we have the election, the fraud or the lack of evidence in all these different things and tromp a trump is a nationalism. Let's fleshes out a little bit. So Christians I think and better understand where were really coming from because we do, we do disagree a little bit on this issue yeah and and part of it is understand each other better notes. Let's find out where we do actually disagree. So we can have a discussion there is many times is just the way the word is used. I mean it.

One way someone else means it another way, so just for the record, are we having a friendly discussion or friendly debate. Deftly a friendly discussion. I don't want to debate you. Okay, why just because you reposted like that and you been in California even I'm in North Carolina for New Yorkers. I put on my New York shirt just in case it was a debate but okay we have a friendly friendly discussion and in you that's that's what we need to select. Let's start here if you would to work, to say the things that most drive you and me were we have been soulmates and and where when I preach for you we we were heart-to-heart. What would you say are those most essential things that really join us together as one. Why think it's on the essentials you know Christ. The inerrancy of Scripture fighting against the evil agenda that is coming against our nation and the heart for revival. You know that those types of things really bring us together and then what seem to be dividing a lot of people. Is this this whole issue never talking about your draping the flag with the cross trump is in the nationalism and that's where I think there's a divide. Somehow I been man. I would like you praying and fasting and this morning, everyone. Or if I'm wrong or show me, I give you heart of compassion, show me what your word says and in seeking the heart of God. Here's what I found. The more I see God the balder I become on these issues. Go figure. So it's it's interesting, very interesting times and and you know you know me pretty well, but not not not totally. And when I sent something to you saying I think you're missing something. I then get on my knees and say father. What am I missing so that's that's art were both doing and that's what we have to because all of us have blind spots you I had on the show with me yesterday, a black pastor and a white pastor who come together as one in their churches working together in a close way and end there. As we talked to said no. The one thing that happens in these relationships is Rose blind spots. We have things we can see your or maybe where you live in America, how you're responding to something versus someone else. So let's let's start here then I think I can go ahead and release the support. I think God also raises that different voices so if you give somebody a bold prophetic Leonard Ravenhill heart. You can ruffle that nice quiet meat mild pastor you know it to be sandpaper and so that's why we have to appreciate different gift things in different callings but yet I think it started with really the Beth Moore tweet you know you said hey you know you you you would support that I was out absolutely not support out so that's kind of where I think the main thrust of this is that yes let's start there. I want to read the tweet I want to say this first. I know Beth Moore's very well known, but I've never heard her speak. I've never read to my knowledge a paragraph of what she's written. I know that there been accusations that she's she's become very quote Wolk and her views have become more liberal. I don't know these are just accusations. I just never followed her up plenty people out there, never followed, but she tweeted this out and if it got the time response over hundred thousand likes might seen it. She said I don't believe these are days for mincing words. I'm 63 1/2 years old and I've never seen anything in these United States of America.

I found more astonishingly seductive and dangerous to the saints of God than trumpets of this Christian nationalism is not of God move back from it. Okay you are so grieved when you heard that you put out a video strongly different with what you hear when you when you read that tweet what I should also say with you.

I've never really followed her on II don't like putting down and you notice my heart.

I don't like naming names and attacking people and you know my heart's not there, it agrees me but when they go public.

I feel have a responsibility to respond in public.

So what I heard is she just threw everyone under the bus. Everyone on his counsel from James Robinson to Jim Garlock's objectives always meant. I know I talked to Jack Graham at Jensen Franklin, myself all the solid Christians gluing go she just was all under the bus and I believe it's because they don't like trump they have to just throw this out there.

Dr. Ben we meet in Washington DC to have a rally and then she comes up next and throws it out. So I think it's you.

What you would do is say we appreciate your heart for for our nation and and God. We have to be careful with tropism. Here's what I mean she doesn't do that.

She just rose everybody under the bus, all 74 million voters in one fell swoop, and I think it's disingenuous. I think it needs be lovingly challenged right so here's the thing that baffled me, but this is why it's so helpful to flesh this out when I read that I didn't think Shane Ottoman. I didn't think James Robison. I didn't think Lou Engle I think any of my friends, colleagues, I I thought of those who have really look to trump in a dangerous way is the only man who can save America and God's anointed and Christian nationalism as equating the kingdom of God with America and I see the real danger among some trump voters and supporters and that's who are at. So why did you immediately hear that that's that's throwing everybody under the bus that unraveled for trump and strongly support his agenda. What you do what you did, why think I would even throw them back on you. How how would anyone assume that all know she can meet all these other people she just met those religious right, draping the cross. How would it help would be notably through the outside that you throw that back on you. It doesn't say that which you make such a broad statement abroad statement covers a large area of people so sheet the burden of responsibility to clarify her position is on her, not on me. So just throwing that out there.

After the Jericho March the next day and it just it should should she just doesn't. The bottom line is she doesn't like trump doesn't like it. There was a positive reelection. She doesn't like anything about him. She's never talk positive about him. She's never said anything nice about him on tweet so this is all her lashing out and that's that's just the truth of it. So that's why I went there with the right got it so I on my end because of the debate and apologist. I was qualify.

I'm not saying this I am saying this for those very reasons.

When I heard it.

I thought that was self-evident in terms of what it meant and in terms of trump is meeting a particular thing is, as I've described it in Christian nationalism, many preachers who thing out one at one of my screen collects John's Americas been writing articles about how the concept of Christian nationalism was being misunderstood and trash filled so everyone's hearing it differently.

But that's that's what we have to have the discussion.

So again when I wrote my article agreeing with the words. I started by saying this, not about this more and I don't know where she's at and what her views are what her position is is will focus on this and then I tried to define things so so just tell me if you if you're with me on this definition will start with Christian nationalism and and I said you're not a Christian national simply because you love and appreciate American non-Christian nationalist because you're patriotic and serve in the military, not a Christian nationalist because you believe comp is better for American implied and not a Christian nationalist because you believe there was electrophoretic fraud in the junior best to fight for free and fair election, not a Christian nationalist because you believe America must protect the religious liberties not Christian nationalist because you believe God raised up America for special purposes in order to bless and help the world which you are the Christian nationalist if you confuse loyalty to your country with loyalty to the kingdom of God. You are a Christian nationalist if you wrap the gospel in the American flag. You are Christian nationalist.

If you merge Christian and American identities. So where are you with me and not with me on that will start here then kick it to after the break.

Go ahead know I'm I'm absolutely with you on all of those terms. The problem is most God fearing God honoring church members. People I know. You know they don't fit under that nationalism definition were not draping the cross with the flag were not trusting in the government morning we were to be reelected.

All help you break with but sheesh it's a blanket statement.

For example, let me ask you this government cost of trump were to pass away and it was parents. So what we recall. Would we be considered tenses him okay great. Perfect. Let's start there. On the other side of the break.

You will come back. That's will start right and and I want want you to flesh that out in the last question our people look with a look depends the way they look. Trump perfect way to come back will be right back to Shane Ottoman line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice is more cultural and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown is French for joining us take some classes with pastor Shane Heilman respected colleague of said this publicly, but if if I was looking for churches around American pastors around America that are hungry for revival and visitation that are willing to pay the price of having God come in their midst and and that would welcome the presence of God pastor Shane would be one of those on my top list, so I've got the utmost respect for him as a colleague of Amanda fasting and prayer stands burden for the same things that that so many of us do. And yet we seem to be coming from some different angles here in terms of concerns that that we have so Shane back to you. You said let's say it was parents that was an embattled right now and let's say there was the fear the election was stolen from Mike pence. Do you think that there would be the same Christian devotion around America today.

Evangelical solidarity with pence that there is with trump, or did you see any sign of of almost a fanatical support were dangerous support for trump again in my opinion. Of course there out there that have that that radical view but most of us are looking at the principles. So whether it's trump, whether it Ben Carson. Whether it's Mike pence. Whether it's Pompeo. We would be fighting over these these these issues, the direction of our nation, and I think that should be set look at who is putting around a Pompeo Kaylee Ben Carson Tony Perkins any wise none of this taken a consideration all about trump nationalism don't work work were excited about what God has done in our nation we want to make a difference want the freedom to preach the gospel and Beth Moore's going a very dangerous direction and I think that's work to your tweets are coming from that nationalism is coming from you and hear this 10 years ago while act action every I've been following this for many many years trump as much right right Bob Evans following the Christian nationalism thing for many many years and the merging of the kingdom of God with American identity. And even if you go back to the Moral Majority when it basically became an appendage of the Republican party. They were there were many concerns that were being raised.

Back then, but remember that that Donald Trump said that that his critics say he could chew some on the fifth Avenue in broad daylight, he would lose any of his followers and said it's an amazing thing. That's what has Chuck McGinnis not about about more than any of us to follow her. Either way, so if you want to come on the archer. Have you set that would be great, but just and in short what what I see day and night by the thousands of comments on social media is almost an idolatrous view of trump some kind of political Messiah, as is the all, the only one that can save America and save the free world. And if I fully recognize the issues of of if you have Joe Biden is inaugurated and let's say the two Senate seats in Georgia foot blue right so now you have a situation where you could potentially pack the Supreme Court could open borders and of a flood of immigrants that with the been here. Otherwise, tilting the voter base you can you can make DC into a state and now shift the electoral votes you renew the the nuclear deal with Iran came into China. I'm either potentially massive implications. I get that but do you not see, and it was a leading way to ask what I say do not do you not see any undue looking to compass some type of political Messiah that can be dangerous for Christians yet. I think again it's a heart of pointing it out in the heart of Beth Moore in these issues is not right.

Like you, just so you know I did as she recommended Jesus and John Wayne how white evangelicals corrupted a faith and fractured a nation. This is just divisive at its core.

So to answer your question, you actually said you not get all the stuff you just listed massive major things correct yet from importance LGBT not even talk about abortion. LGBT all the other things I'm just right yet all the other things a different concern us absolutely yes you said I get that but I think that's work ethic and it concerns me. Sometimes it's the blood site will judge a zero and everything you just said that's at stake. So yes, I see people on the far right acting weird, putting him, elevating him he's not Christ.

He's not a Messiah he's part let's say we both can agree that God put him in office right God raises the king up so so if he was God's sovereign plan in 2016 wise all this critiquing of him. Now we knew we are getting a billionaire from New York to come in and drain the swamp and and bring back people in positions of leadership who have godly values. Yes, his character, yes I got it but were looking at the whole nation political nation where where where we going what direction we going so yes I see the the my my point would be. I've been saying the exact same thing from the start of the same the same thing for four years I could give you article after article referencing the same thing. Now it's just be read differently potato it up and then respond more, but our dear friend Amanda.

We both respect deeply.

James Robison is on the line so Dominic give the airtime over to my brother James, thank you for taking time to call in so good to hear from you. You're my hero. My life kingdoms are is the point of the greatness of God, even the members of the body to all over me and never even noticed her and you and Shane are beautiful for you love God with all your heart loves you and you want the best for everybody interested in office he was better more we we had $40 million. To get women into the word of God, of the word of God and the women for many many years and not communicating with the law, but but right now it's very very I happen to be one of those individuals who the last 40 years the power and and and they always heard his story know I've never been part of. I've never been sick. I've never been covered by denomination. I don't want any covering only are the Christ. I'm not a nationalist and I'm certainly not one that's going to prove that which is improper. Like previous lifestyle in many things.

It is like that still need to be home. Just as many of you wrote the great books in the Bible and Solomon was never not ideal example getting Davis probably is, and Peter make a pretty big view of the described but the Lord told they could hear the truth. They could be correct about the trip but in what I have done for four years thing. I think everybody needs to hear. I happen to know the 20 or 30 leaders who were willing to tell the unadulterated truth. They never waved they were never parts they were never nationalist.

They were biblical principle, individuals who understood the strength of our Constitution was based upon biblical truth that was greater than all of the man who pinned them to repent correction. But the point is that man.

Amazingly true and actually told me the surrounding with print wisdom I don't everybody forget and I can tell you hours of the day for years he would take virtually every call that I was speaking and many have been more serious reprimands, and no one is ever heading one more forceful interface. But this man did with me and there were plenty of witnesses on numerous occasions to hearing many times it was just the two of us never once did he push back every single time he heard and where is it began to have an affect on this man lead in decisions, but no one ever believed he could possibly understand is me an important, and I have tried to tell the church that he was the answer to the prayers of God's people who were asking God sincerely and to correct in the areas of our wickedness, which in difference in salt losing its effect on the light being covered was one of our wicked way, and I began to seek Christian leaders come together, the way Jesus Breitbart base 20 to 30 church leaders, the most influential power in the country came together in a supernatural unit that was the most amazing that I have in 60 years of public ministry. I watch these great leaders love God with all their heart and put their arms around others who were so far from where they believe they should be and they begin to watch God change event they amazingly want make decisions that literally stunned everyone. So here's the great teaching on the bank.

Daniel had five kids we would call.

Anything less than ideal.

He oftentimes received appointment in leadership roles under the every time those kings received the wisdom from God. Just like Pedro when he listened to Joseph, the people benefited every time the leaders received the truth that the prophets delivered fearlessly unwaveringly people would benefit and I am saying. In answer to the prayers of the remnant of God. Those who want the will of God love him with all their heart and love their neighbors as themselves. Those people pray for God to heal a very sick makeshift and the healing process miraculously took now, but the disfavor of the father of lies and to see the big egos along with all malice, all that and the future of American people believe no meaningful principle number biblical principles no historically conferred principle the quinces of the five are undeniable. The result of obeying those principles are undeniable in the positive affect I am saying that we have seen empirical that the answer to the prayers of people who love God with all their heart and hope the best for their neighbors and these leaders every one of my heart. They never compromised and never wavered. They had nothing to do with partisanship. They are not nationalist they love God with all their heart and they were willing to risk their reputation to tell a man that was unpopular with all five including the benzo telling the truth of God, and they watch that transforming troop have an impact and affect the so I'm simply saying don't throw Daniel under the bus. Don't throw payments don't go to the kings that were not like my hand is on the site is not just just just hundred thank you for lifting God I got a break. Thank you, thank you for lying in right back and it's the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown your voice and more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown is Michael Brown. Especially this past draw attention to the books in a moment but I'm I'm so glad that my dear friend James Robison just called in because many a time he's called me immediately after talking with Donald Trump just got off the phone with Pres. and and he'll tell me why I spoke strongly to him and he listened and you could you could hear a moment ago that that James can be very forceful and very clear and he's told me from the first time that they met together for over an hour in the days of the primaries, and that was that meeting alone to the countless times of spoken that he spoken plainly to him. He said to me of this and like you have no idea what I have said in terms of the level of strong correction and James a said one time he rebuked the presence of strong. He called back to because he felt he was too strong and an presence wont tell he loved them so you may not hear James speak that out to the general public because he has access in private dislike in a family situation.

You sit down and discuss it in private and publicly you do your best to stand together so that's what happened. There was one what he's been mending too many of them have spoken strong as they can to the president and many of the good decisions he's made is made because of that, so coming back to Shane now. I will pick up on something and thrown over to you for for clarification get our goal is to try to flesh out where we may be different with each other. When I gave the list of all the concerns I have about where the left of the radical left could take us which of one's about for many many years and my vote for Donald Trump in 2016 to 2020 was very strongly about against Hillary Clinton and the Democrats and against abide in the Democrats and the agenda has gotten even more extreme.

So there many many reasons to consider and so I stand with you on that hundred percent and if there's been fraud. Let it be exposed.

Let the truth come to light lit. Let the upheaval calm so that we can free and fair elections in America. At the same time. I'm concerned that many of us who voted for Trump support him are looking to him too much, believe him and almost no one else will know matter what he says or does will somehow justify it, and I find that unhealthy and my thing is, if we really want the blessing of God, we gotta fix that. Otherwise, when I can be on God's side. That's the button that was yet we said we together stand against the radical left agenda.

We together stand for free and fair elections in a righteous outcome of the election hundred percent. At the same time, I have grave concerns about where many of the elements at the Jericho march that good of the militia calls things like that where things could be going. Can't we have both at the same time concerned about an idolatrous view of Trump standing strongly out with him in the in the principles for which you he ran the course. I think that's the heartbeat of all of us. We don't put Trump on a pedestal. He's not our Savior. I think what happens in electrifying to speak freely please see his what what happens a lot of times is you're trying to you know speak to a group of let's say the far right that idolizing trucker speaking that group, but inadvertently were all thrown into that camp were all thrown in under the bus. It feels like for example when you said and Beth Morse tweed Shane.

How did you read into that that she was throwing you and Jim Lingle and Jim Barlow what Jim Garner wasn't was upset by the tweed jacket was upset by the tweed. I'm sure Jacaranda like the tweed sissy were all were all filling because we don't feel the camaraderie we feel it's a lashing out a going against traffic going if anyone supports tromping and like I said before, NT 5 George Soros Hollywood kind of the abortion industry is on is on your side. Are you sure you're on the right side so that your question it just feels like some these articles are are going against all of us that are supporting the president and I don't know how to make that differentiate different.

The difference her nonchalant difference, but that's how many people are feeling and I think also, if we look at the conflict it's creating. For example, you look at your post you said comments of truck the Savior.

But I've also seen 1000s of post-yes thousands of last couple months were grouchy hurting believers because we we were not that per se my article that I probably do the opposite.

I don't see the other side like you like you mentioned, but somehow in some way. For example, the article today on on Flynn when you quoted Flynn in the habit of the heart was about draping the flag of the cross with the flag and I didn't get that from Flynn statement. I got it from a very man. He's very upset the direction of our country and I think we just need to be careful because were thrown at ourselves under the bus boyfriends under the bus by not clarifying really well, our positions right okay so that let's do our best it to clarify better. Okay because again that's people always get mad at me for all my caveats.

I'm not saying this.

I'm not saying this I am's but I'm trying be precise because I want the point that I'm making to to be heard in the I'm always writing, hearing all the opposition in my head and trying to factor that in so that I can overcome that and write with clarity. Michael Flynn immediately after the Jericho march event which again had speakers get up and talk about. We need to form militias. Now we don't need to to wait the militias ready president. Its goal you had that in the in the midst of it and shofars with USA on them and chance of USA side-by-side with cancer. Jesus Michael Flynn federal Flynn said we the people are proud to proclaim the United States of America is one nation under God in this public profession of faith in God we recognize his Lordship over a country and we proudly stand beneath the banner of Christ and our flag which millions of sacrifice their very lives for inscriptions to the strength to quit the Matthew say whoever is not with me is against me so it's basically saying that you're dividing the country into the left and the right that the left is against Jesus. The right is with Jesus in your equating the banner of Christ with the American flag, which I'm seeing day and night.

So what what doesn't concern you. And that statement what you think I misunderstood their well long story short, take me a minute to practice but when I read this statement we have dual citizenship we would agree to correct so I can say the Lord Jesus Christ one nation under God the cross of Christ save me at the same time appreciate the flag appreciate the millions of lives who gave their lives for the freedoms we now enjoy, appreciate what God has done in our nation. I think we sometimes what happens is maybe indirectly issue or not you per se, but others put down that site as if that's bad Honor and appreciate what God is done. It's not you think you gotta find this mushy middle that doesn't even exist. So I think we can have both wheat we got draping the cross with the flag were acknowledging that the crime the flag.

The cross is above all and Jesus is Lord of all. But the same time I citizenship in America, thanking God for what he is done and wanting to make a difference one to stand up against the LGBT agenda. Like you said before, wanting to bring right you suspect think about this the mocking trumpet.

He's putting Christians in all areas of office Ben Carson overhead. I mean sometimes it is people just lost her mind to hate Trump so much that they're coming up with this fake nationalism and tribalism that is there there. But this much in the making of this much central effect.

A lot of people Isis salute, let me ask this because I start my article by saying it's one thing to be a patriot, even a Christian patriot. It's another thing to conflate the American flag with the banner of Christ so I'm saying it as plainly as I know how I'm watching with astonishment as is people I've known for years are basically equating loyalty with God with loyalty to trump. For example if I say I voted for him.

I support him and I was on Mike Huckabee show.

He said it's the clearest statement is ever heard by an evangelical explaining why we should vote for trump. Is this the same person write the moment I warned about looking Tim in the wrong way and make them into political Messiah. I today have been accused of being a Mossad agent. I was accused of being a flaming communist liberal leftist secularist psych.

So hang on. I'm preach Jesus loudly and clearly. But the moment I just say don't look to Amanda Floyd Manatt that a man with all the good he did did mass is massive collateral damage with the don't now somehow makes me disloyal to God that does not concern you that those types of attitudes are there in the body of this action might help. Like when someone dies, you don't go immediately. Quote Romans 828 correct all all things were correct. Good.

It's great.

It's time, Dr. Brown, our nation, the very fabric of our nation is being destroyed and it's a very serious issue and I think it was and I asked a half-dozen people.

They all felt it was a skit against Flynn not the right time.

Not good timing.

It is hauling down when we need to be united now the valve. The concerns are valid, but it's a shot against Flynn a shot against this or it's like were at work versus a coming from right now this is not the time or not you think. Why would you think I'm writing you know me pretty well. Why just yet. I'm writing it, probably to relate to that group that is elevating the Nyack now than I I'm I'm my whole goal is not to be popular with people but to honor God and I 100% sure in my own spirit, that just as dangerous as what the left is doing is where the wrong emphasis in the church is going right now that that that if if there's any way that God is going to put us in the right direction and pushback against the radical left agenda. To the extent we go in this wrong direction and God will not be able to bless even here, even if there was electoral fraud and gauze ready to bring it up okay and expose it the way the church is gotten so militantly nationalistic trump center an end to the point of dividing against France tearing down, slandering, attacking an enemy and from masses of people say amen petite, can keep saying it but I was sure that the blessing of God will not be so I'm trying to get us in a position where God can bless us and they seem describe it in less we see this, we will be just know I guess here's this this a good point that I'm getting a little more clarity could you just at the church right will the church you just you just threw me and all all of us into this thing that were going the wrong direction you're having prayer meetings every morning. Many are seeking God. Millions of people are not falling into this worship of trout made it so it's it's almost like again were or were thrown, all under the bus for having a love for our nation love our country, wanting God to bring righteousness back whether to trump pants reverence through I learned a very serious time like I don't imagine Dean Dietrich Bonhoeffer being very trying to find the mushy, the motion middle that in the 1940s Nancy Mark Martin Luther in front of the what was it the Holy Roman Empire. I went out be half the signers of the Declaration of Independence were ministers of the gospel. But today's out.

I know you're getting political number living out the gospel.

No say so here's what I'm thrilled it's going to stretch because really bring this out. You see when you would actually say to someone I know you respect that I'm looking for the motion middle.

I've lived on the wrist that might know I I'm not saying that's what I just heard about me. I wrist my life, literally, for Jesus and would do it in a heartbeat as the greatest joy not I have lost everything I lost friends I have lost you had at times because I would not there's not a drop of compromise, not a eyedrop of compromising my entire being. And when I risk alienating people by speaking the truth and then someone here as it is looking for the motion. Middle not even believing it is true that it may seem, this is why we got here each other better and work you do it. I'm committed to here and honor my brother Chris were on the same side right that it's the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 8664 through here again is Dr. Michael Brown as per the clarity honest as I sought to be as well so let me lay this out and throw it through it back to you when you talk about motion middle. I don't know anyone that fits in a because no one I'm relating to is that fits in that I know people who have wept and wept and wept as they seen the personality of Donald Trump. The words of Donald Trump. The style Donald Trump bring deep division deepen division and pain in my coming godly people that have wept in and wept over this.

At the same time they voted for him and I've been the site. Same message from day one. He's not my Savior but he's my president, Jesus gets my heart my life my soul present gets my vote. II wanted the whole world to identify me with Jesus at an end to the extent you identify me with Trump that I've got off message and I've I've watched our elder evangelical witness get crashed in America and around the world because many of evangelicals have become apologists for Trump. We have been the character counts morality matters people for years.

The values voters seem to of compromise so I've been able to say no is what we voted for him.

Six essential issues that we believe that he's the better man for but here's where we differ in where we grieve and for spouse in that position now. Somehow we become the the mushy middle site that baffles me. Man I honestly don't get where that's coming from, what do we get part two Callisto don't give a talk about the election fraud or near that stuff anyway let Miguel any this time.

Yeah well here's here's it's frustrating thing for me and many people are for example in your video. You mentioned you know, you kind of baby then fill another some apprehension about Franklin Graham endorsing Trott because the people saying I could never follow Franklin Graham again I'm not enjoying it, just to be clear when I said that when she tweets out.

I believe the president etc. and then refers to one days, Joe Biden present like that then basically just as Joe Biden said hey he's he's Frank Greg's office prestigious Christian leaders in the world,doing, however, as an evangelist, when people hear his message now one of them won't listen because they think he's a trump defender trump supporter, etc. as opposed to hey, he's just an evangelist for Jesus and he may vote a certain way. He never optically and endorsed that I endorse one candidate wants was it's a mistake you can't do that because then people get to hear that when I try to bring a larger message so I just said when you do it. If you feel to do. He's Franklin Graham on the here to instruct 10th, but if you feel to do that and said I believe in the president. I stand with the president when you go to preach Jesus to someone there also going to have to have that baggage. That to me creates of the public but focus on the motion. Middle please help me understand that it's all connected. Because that's the point of getting out and I get emails you know changes stick to the word know those kind of thing. So what I mean by you know, for example with Franklin Graham at you.

That is one.

One example you don't don't don't think that present trunk of them. I heard the gospel and so he asked. So that means you need to be silent that's only by the motion middle. There's no he's not going to please these people and I would say is it more on the person who's these people hate trump and so the amount of Franklin posted out. So now they say Franklin I like to follow you anymore really that's the person's issue, not Franklin's issue number granite we don't want to hurt damage gospel we don't want to but it's almost like polarized in the end, and you know what, let's let's be Christians but let's also not be promote truck too much or support took too much and that's on me by. There's a mushy middle that people want us to try to find an end will what's what's mushy about saying my messages Jesus to cross the Bible scriptural principles.

I believe Trump is the best man for the job now between him and Joe Biden and I support the Republican platform, but I messages Jesus the where is there a mushy middle. There, I'm I want to be very conical in an open about who I voted for him and why.

And yet I've also overwhelmingly said yeah I don't like when he said that John will have access privately to the president to speak to into share thing so for my own integrity when he says something vicious and insulting and ugly about someone offer integrity as a trump folder and say hey I don't like that I differ with that.

But here's why has my vote house at a motion middle one that situation. It's not my my point. When I mentioned the motion middle again. Gotta keep this in context, I'm talking about different issues. One, when people are in over the whole issue is on Beth Moore and Greene seen the other side saved saved the liberal side. The left sightseeing the other side is not agreeing with the other side.

It sounds like people want to not only see the other side.

They want us to agree with the other side and agree with the right so agreeing with the left and the right or not. If not offending anyone. And there's that mushy middle that it feels like sometimes were trying to find that balance in in just to be with you not in your case, but in a lot of cases. I'm wondering if if people whose ministry are mainly supported you know because of both being conservative they're kinda worried about upsetting caper to block my YouTube there goes Facebook is my source of income, and they're not standing for the convictions, but they are trying to find out mushy middle of trying to get up. He's a Christian audience, but also not upset the left too much because I my platform and that's what it feels like right now as well that might be happening so hope that clarifies the mushy middle. They did let me know okay that that's what you get on and I did it so far into my thinking. I need even easy to just describe because I can't even imagine it relate to it or think of it. It's just so bizarre to be that anyone would calculate the supposed co-pay the Lord let the chips fall where they were. They made so so here's the question that I want to see us blessed right almost the American blessed and that means the church has to be revived in the silly way the nation to be awakened to the political process is important that the biggest thing that's important. And if there's been the stealing of an election. It's this massive massive massive issue. If we keep praying for it for truth to it to triumph and come to the light, but since ultimately if you want this in the room and we were just told to pray for the next 48 hours.

Probably 99% of her preference would be identical we be saying amen to each other.

So how do we how I have your back. What I need to do so that you know and perceive that I have your back. As we move forward and that I'm not undercutting you of certain undercutting James or Jack Graham of the southern dear fine brothers that I know esteem. What I need to do or say, so that you know I'm not undercutting your heart and your stance. Why think what is happened you number you mention that I don't I don't hear the other side as well. Right. I'm just eyesight, which is probably true self assessment something I need to work on but on the other side. Maybe in your case, what we were trying hard to not only hear the other side but agree with the other side to it weekly, throwing things that you know about the other side that may be to appease them in the end is that it ends up hurting those of us who are solid believers. So I don't know what that looks like. I know sometimes when I read the articles lately. They become just cut her just heard a little bit can break my heart.

As far as you know, that might be me give-and-take into prayer and found them to the Lord and Gilbert talk with James talk with these other leaders in and I know Lou Ingle felt this way as well with other things of death in there somehow were or were not, but how you get on the same page with differing views on enough you need expressed triumphalism of nationalism. I guess we just don't see that in the sense that is real. There are people making trump Savior, but it's a very small fraction of the Christian base yeah it feels like it's becoming the whole base and not only that it's not like doing that, here's what's to me more more dangerous is it's actually dividing the Christian base even more and yet just say this to jump in. I've never it's never dawned on the to try to appease because the other side, why, why, what, I spent my whole life trying to speak the truth regardless of cost or consequence and have the other side knows I exist within the inside it's against Beth Moore August dealing with was words wasn't Beth Moore for against anything whatsoever that was never on my lunch out I'll know she even knows I exist nor do I want her favor or anyone's favor.

Norma try get the ire of Michael Flynn but I as a servant of the Lord with the prophetic word that he lays on my heart is one that first and foremost sees needs within the church and the idea that if worshiping trump. It's not that it's making them into a political Messiah. It's Outlook I iron from major Christian leader colleague of mine talk to major Christian leader and and this this Christian leader asked him just yesterday who tell me one person that you trust.

Right now in Washington is who do you trust he said is only one person I trust one only, that's Donald Trump that that stuff scares me into it and when it's the department. Real William bars a bad guy now with whoever it is that the now that the bad guys in bars been courageous and it's been a hero in so many ways so I see it is pervasive. I will see his little friends I see is pervasive that there is a tremendous looking to a man and I don't believe there would be this much fervor if the fight was for for Mike pence so I am I'm standing side-by-side with you against the radical left, side-by-side, to pray that where this fraud. Let it be exposed side-by-side of praying for awakening in the society and revival in the church in that sense on I got your back on him your ally. Your friend, what I say is there something I'm seeing there's something dangerous and if we want God to bless us. Just like when there is junk in Israel going to bless Israel with the had to deal with that. I'm desperate to see the church bless America can be bless out and have to speak to those things. But hey, you got the last 30 seconds so over to you 30 seconds well now I think it was we would have more time to flesh everything out with our stay in the fraud election. I think I think were ended on a good note that you know just beeped seeking God. The heart of God. Make sure the elevating man and make sure communicating with others. Yes, you know, and he wanted you mean by that her so I took in a set of you know, just getting in and holding it in and that's that's why this conversation was so important, so no, I thank you for that and I hope you absolutely, and I want the whole world to know Shane item is a friend, colleague, man I am. I'm in your camp, I got your back when this together and by God's grace to see revival sweep this nation. God bless you man I love you. Thanks thank you,

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