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How a Black Pastor and a White Pastor Became Welded As One

Line of Fire / Dr. Michael Brown
The Truth Network Radio
December 22, 2020 4:30 pm

How a Black Pastor and a White Pastor Became Welded As One

Line of Fire / Dr. Michael Brown

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December 22, 2020 4:30 pm

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It's an amazing story of black pastor a white pastor welded together as one to meet them today stage for the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of ministry get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown really is a great story's amazing story of racial reconciliation and learning to work and serve God together in the midst of very different cultures and backgrounds bottom of the hour.

I'll be joined by Mike to guest Jay Stewart Derek Hawkins is the talk about the new book welded and how God brought them together white pastor black pastor white church black church of the become one in the Lord's will be talk about that bottom of the hour. Think you beatified health data.

Atlanta asked some probing questions and in the midst of so much turmoil and controversy and division in America how to these men of God sort these things out walking to the broadcast. This is Michael Brown. So glad to be with you. Phone lines are open so what do the next 20 something 25 something minutes is answer your questions on any subject under the sun. Any thing you want to talk to me about theological, spiritual, political, cultural, linguistic, witnesses, Moses and Aaron, I can help you with anything at all. You want to ask about if you want to dispute something with me, 866-348-7884 that is the number to call for some of the comment on a couple things is the culvert vaccine.

The mark of the beast. No, no it is not now you see why on earth would anyone wonder if some vaccine is the mark of the beast.

You might say, is it safe should we be taking it.

Who should be getting vaccinated may be your concern that the government would require this sin, if you find playing at the facts that if you come into work at the vaccinated so as a part of a one world system as a bit of a leap to get there, but some Christians actually think perhaps because there were rumors that there would be a microchip that would be in in in part of the that the vaccine so we did vaccinated a chip would be put in you and this would ultimately get around the entire world and it would be vaccinated, so I will have a chip in and a one world government was able to oversee and see exactly what your mantra doing ago. Who knows what else. This is not the mark of the beast you so how can you be so sure can be so sure because the beast is not behind. Let me explain what I mean we can debate the meaning of the mark of the beast in the book of Revelation.

I remember hearing for years. I know people decades ago would not give their kids a Social Security number. They were born. Try to keep that from the government because they said that's the mark of the beast that puts us in the world system and others you know that you could use fingerprint for credit card things or fry idea. Know that we don't want to do that.

That's the mark of the beast raising your credit card information.

We just be casual because credit cards the market-based Americans different theories for years and over the centuries, before we have this technology.

There were various theories, but with the mark of the beast is and some take it very literally that there will literally be a physical sign that will be put on people. That's the mark of the beast, meaning that when there is an antichrist. One world ruler, then order the buy or sell under that one world ruler that you have to be marked and and is a little mark of the say no it is.

It is just a system. It is metaphorical. It is spiritual. It's just referring to it as a system we shouldn't take it literally. After this is the book of Revelation, which is written in an apocalyptic literature which is Philip full of symbolism, etc. but the reason I can just say so. Doug nothing. Though this is not the mark of the beast is because we are not being ordered to bow down to a one world government, or else you must have this and submit to this to be part of this one world order or else now. This gives us a hint of how something like that could happen. Follow. In other words, the culvert 19 situation gives us a hint of how much government overreach. There could be of how even churches sometimes can lose their way in terms of what's right and not right. What's being cautious and careful and and what's kowtowing to government overreach and unfair ways was loving my neighbor was walking in fear all kinds of questions that come up which are good questions to ask in process and work through my book, when the world stops within the midst of the culvert crisis. I try to address these issues. Practically, but this gives us a glimpse of how something could happen where there could be a one world government and the government says in order to participate in normal life you have to do certain things.

We have to get certain information about you and therefore we can control your lives, and if your religious convictions run against that and you have to choose between living or having religious convictions.

We can see how something like that could happen and this is a glimpse of it again. What if your bosses hate for the safety of our employees have to be vaccinated. If you going to keep your job. Hate you have to fly for your job well in order to fly. You have to be vaccinated or the alliance will have you want with the local grocery store wants proof of vaccination before you can come in and shop notice. These are the types of potential scenarios that people could see based on which there could be some ultimate type of mark of the beast system, but this is not it. This is not it.

You should be evaluating the safety of the vaccine. Whether it is wise and prudent to take the vaccine based on safety issues and not based on concerns that this is the mark of the beast. This want to say that put that out and look, I'm not 100 years old, I'm 65 and I came to faith in 1971 at the age of 16, Silva been around out in the Lord. 49 years and I heard a whole lot and seen a whole lot of speculation. I can tell you is that all the speculation thus far has been wrong all the predictions and dates and thus far have been wrong.

I remember a sales call once talking to a woman and she said this during the days when Reagan was president she goes with antichrist brought Ronald Reagan. Ronald Reagan will be heard was Mikhail Gorbachev because he had the birthmark is the marks. These guys got some market will Ronald Reagan as we get that.

She said Ronald Wilson Reagan six letters in each of his name. 666 and she was dead serious friends. This is not the mark of the beast. Evaluate this based on safety and we feel there could be got government overreach than that's a fair independent question to ask. Just don't tie it in with the book of Revelation and the end of the world fair enough right.

Let's go to the phones and will start with Robert Mountain home Texas walking to the line of fire Inspector Brown have a pretty good working operational working of extra scripting. 26 healing are related to their my question is, and first Corinthians 15 first Quicken 618, referring to adultery. The only immoral person sins against his own body in which I am assuming that there are physical maladies that happen with that question and in spirit.

Psalm 1077 20 you know it in 19 than the crap the Lord in their troubled Savior expresses his word and healed them from their instructions.

Maybe my ultimate question is is is it exegetical way in hermeneutical unit what other principles of interpretation to say that Psalm 107 17 through 20 provides healing for first Corinthians 618 violations versus Exodus 1526, which is based on lines against brightness. If you obey right so I appreciate the questions.

First, I would say that first within 6018. Does that explicitly say that you will become sick because of the sin you get a sexy transmitted disease something, but rather your sinning against her own body. This is a bodily act of bodily violation were you rejoining your body with someone else's body and it is is not just thinking a wrong thought.

It's not just speaking a wrong word it. It's not like stealing something you are joining your body in a sinful way with someone else's body so therefore sinning against your own body. Now why would go with that is if there were consequences of that if if there were divine judgments or simply repeat what were sewing and in you contract a sexy transmitted disease, I would simply go to James Jacob. The fifth chapter where if you're sick you call for the elders and the prayer offer you their knowledge with all the person face to make the sick person whole and if they committed sins will be forgiven.

So the implication is they could well be sick because of their sin, but when they come in this posture of asking for prayer obviously apparent' dependence and repentance that if they have sin if their sin has contributed to the sickness will be forgiven in the same way yeah I would say that that Psalm 107, living with those wonderful words of a schlocky fire over your payment. He sent his word and healed them. There is, that would indicate that many times that there was sickness because of sin. If you think of the Psalms Psalm six Psalm 30 Psalm 38 Psalm 41 there is reference in those Psalms to sin and and pleading for mercy and in some of the Psalms is explicit reference to sickness so it's understood. I'm sick because I send, and I'm under divine judgment.

When I asked God for mercy. I'm also asking for healing as well as forgiveness so those things definitely go hand in hand, there's the promise of God, keeping us free from sickness and disease as we walk in obedience, a promise that was given to ancient Israel on a national level yet but and there are times when sickness is completely unrelated to said that many times it is really the first Corinthians 11. The fact that people died and others were sick was because of sin, and violating the integrity of of the Lord's table. So yes, in those cases we cry out for mercy and the mercy includes forgiveness of sin and healing of disease they they often go in hand and hand are good. It's a few more calls go to share another news item with you and then to a special guest at the bottom of the hour, 8663 fortress. Remember, if you don't get my emails every week you want to sign up. We got some special goodies that we sent your way when you do.

Plus will keep you informed and up to date to go to asked Dr. SK DR sign up today. We'd love to be in regular contact with her plan and gives the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown transferred joining us on random questions into a special guest at the bottom of the hour. A couple Facebook comments showing glad you get to see me with. I can sit on the TV today. Always great to be with him.

David commented about the mark of the beast does not refer to Nero if it doesn't directly refer to Nero elusive. If the book of Revelation was not primarily referring to first century events. It still had to have application to Nero. In other words, what would be the equivalent of the mark of the beast, then it would've been basically that you you swear loyalty to Caesar or you die that year when you're told to sacrifice to Caesar that you do and you thereby deny your faith would be that kind of principle and and then Travis for to be the mark of the beast you need to know who the beast is read your Bibles again is not just an abstract thing is anything government imposes on us becomes the mark of the beast, but this is what I be concerned about putting the vexing question aside in a daily basis my trigger my faith or do I deny my convictions in order to fit that's the bigger issue is that's what it's ultimately going to come down to okay I saw this news item posted today and it was about aliens and it said this, that the headline said this, that it could be that the Milky Way may be full of baby aliens who annihilated themselves.

Read that again. Milky Way may be full of aliens who annihilated themselves, study says research suggests intelligent life may have emerged 8 billion years after the Milky Way form but then the and somehow annihilated themselves and are no more now. I am not a scientist, I do not have strong scientific background that's an understatement above explain why. But here's the history when I was in high school and we started to get to the more serious signs classist of these and I can prepare the way for your college studies and more advanced studies I was paying no attention because I was getting high.

Okay then I got radically born again, but by the time I get radically born again. I had helped Aleta strike in our school where we ended up advocating for our own school within the school, which we got strikingly enough called safe school which stood for student faculty education with about 67 the most radical kids in school with four radical professors or teachers and we we got out of school.

We started school the same time in the morning but we got out at noon. Everyone else get out at three take subjects.

We want not take subjects so II had no formal education must years of high school other than band and orchestra.

Everything else was pass fail show up or not it was so I had no signs classist and and then once I got to college.

End of specializing in languages and things ought no science classes really from midway through high school, paying serious attention. So, I've read some, and learned some but obviously I have I have no way in my own scientific background which is almost nothing to evaluate arguments like this and post like this, but here to me is the irony right and I know there must be more to this and something they allegedly discovered somehow right but here's what this is what it feels like to me.

Okay so in terms of being a scientific layman. This is what it sounds like to me.

We we look at the universe right and science can give us no good explanations for the origin of the universe or the origin of life or the origin of DNA and then many would say well for our universe to come together just completely by chance to end up with what we have with an earth that sustains life is just random chance.

Even if there was somewhere with the material came from right and somehow that the thing got started. You, my friend Frank Turek says I've got no problem.

The big bag. You just need a big Bangor Wright who who may the thing happen that there scientist to say you know 14 billion years is not enough time for this to happen and and you know to just get it right where you it, the chances are our almost infinitely low soul. There must be many many many many many universes multi-verse. This an endless number of other universes and ours is the one that happened to get things right so we ended up with life on earth, but will have to is there actually any evidence of the existence of any other universe outside of our universe which we keep learning about no, no, it's posited also. In other words, in other words, because there is no scientific explanation for the origin of the universe.

There is no scientific explanation for the origin of life is no scientific explanation for the origin of DNA having plausible scientific explanations and it seems implausible or unlikely that in 14 billion years, things could just happen to evolve to end up with us here that there must be all these other universes with its most basic to Haifa read and take the logical explanation which is that an intelligent being eternal being created all this no negative or positive, something entirely different.

So what I see headline like this.

I'm thinking okay there is no actual evidence of life out there so it must've all been out there and then disappeared and that's why it's not there is, is it strike you as a logical as it strikes me. I remember Nancy and I were visiting some friends and their daughter was about two years old and we got over there and were hanging out talking with them and they said that house you drive over here was thought this is no problems, no, no accident.

You said no you weren't almost an accident knowing thank God because her daughter.

She just kept praying for you all pray you know no accident that help them no accident in its two years old.

She said thank God answered her prayers like maybe the contents of her practice. Or maybe there was no problems with little two-year-old got this thought in your mind the regulars.

It wasn't that she miraculously stop it from happening.

Reminds me of another story. This guy standing on a street corner in Manhattan and is clapping his hands is clapping his hands clapping his hands and someone comes up to assist Mr. what are you doing, he said, I'm keeping the crocodiles away and says guy looks insists Mr. Dano, crocodiles for like 200 miles emergency. It's working. That's I read this article again with my lack of scientific knowledge. That's what comes to mind right 866-34-TRUTH that let's go to Greg and High Point, North Carolina. Welcome to the line of fire. You're welcome. Okay yeah you speaking right into the phone, sir. Yeah all right, go ahead and other preachers talk about Judgment Day. Everybody have to answer prayer, whether good or bad.

I can't tell the answer God you're so yeah so so for believers right when not being judged in terms of what it was saved or not, but we are getting account for our lives and just say in Romans 14 that will give account to send second Corinthians 5 that will give account for good or bad to say in Matthew 12 that will have to give account for every idle word that we speak so I understand it Greg that it's not going to be that I have to explain every sin that I've committed as much as give account for my life. Give account for my actions and and here's the deal, God being God to do everything in a completely cerebral cerebral way.

In other words, and in a split second. Our entire life could pass before us in a split second, God could into it.

Our response before we even say a word in a split second, we can feel rebuked and corrected in and weep before him, and then from there every tear removed and we go to the eternal age. In other words, it's it doesn't have to be a process where we sit and review every single item because it helped long as I can take in the motor the same as God can bring up every unclean and sinful memory but it is something sobering. It is something serious and and Leonard Ravenhill, dear friend. The last five years of his life he would preach on the judgment seat of Christ. It was an overwhelmingly intense and serious message and it's one that we really don't hear about me more.

We hardly preach about because we just want everyone to feel good so we we need to be secure in the father's love and know that the blood of Jesus has washed us clean before the Lord and in that sense when not giving account for sin that we been cleansed of, but rather give account for a lawsuit look at it like this, let's say that for years I was drunk and never showed up at work and that I get radically wonderfully saved and when I stand before the Lord is not to say what about your out there drinking but let's say he had called me to the business world, and call me to raise money for the poor in my community, and instead I spent all the money I had a luxurious living but I was still a believer, then I'll have to give account okay you gave that assignment.

How did you do in that assignment and and it is going to be a sobering time related Ravenhill September 1994 at the age of 87 had stroke and never came out of it until November. Around Thanksgiving when you want to be with the Lord and I remember his wife, Martha sinks me will it's it's good.

It gave him time to prepare before going to the judgment seat. I thought wow that's is very serious so we go secure that we loved by the father but just like the boss calls and says okay as you during your quota. We will give account and there will be rewards and ultimately the words we want to hear or well done basis or I right back with a special guest file line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown I'm holding in my hand in amazing well racial bonds that last Eric Hawkins and Jay Stewart and Bennett withheld the book in my hands.

They are both right here with me these two passages. These two men of God that God has joined together, we get to hear their story today so brothers great to have you with us on a lot of fire the rubric so was remember this. I'm telling one of most humble movement of government. I forget thank you for the invite to just appreciate the honor being with you were friends we go way back, but buoyant to be here with you today is awesome what what it what a joy. I am so thrilled to be able to have you both yourself Jay have known you for a while how is it that you and Derek connect and and you just give it it's as a basis for a long story about how I want to get your each of your perspectives are and then once we lay that out. Talk about legal we were all Americans live in the same country love and the same God is believers, and yet sometimes our perspectives are so different unless we really get welded together will never know. So has to restore from your perspective, Jay Turley goes back to 2014 walked out into our concourse. After one of our services.

I'm always out there greeting people and a tall young African-American man comes up to me and introduces himself so sorry I'm about to take over church could possibly meet with you for some coaching and mentoring, and you've done that with her the past I have and that's my hard and so that was an easy yes for me and so I was leaving for sabbatical but we connected right after that began meeting and met consistently for about the next 18 months, and God just formed this very special relationship between us. It was really a Holy Spirit thing that happened with us and Derek. How did you get joined or drawn to Jay in the first place where piggy was my wife who asked me to do something on a Saturday morning leave the compass among my very comfortable, cozy, comes this Saturday morning to take my daughter to get her hair down in downtown Salisbury and their pastor Jay has a mother campus, Salisbury location. I called the number one assessing the few sentences refutable technical resources. This is called a house of refuge delivers ministries and ironically there is a sinuses refuse really. Dr. Brown really just intrigued by the silent except when I called the number doesn't lead me to Salisbury leads me to become apples location just outside of Charlotte. So when I pick up the phone and the reception is on the other hand connection with the graphic designer who dances a unwillingness and I meet with you. His name is Marcella. We meet in the Mozart coffee. This is out of our campus and I can apples location we need. He says you need to be pastor Jay Stewart is an apostolic father. And there's something that you need to get from him.

I would back next. Molly was at that time had do you mind if I go check out the service and they gave me the permission to do so, and I was this man blown away by the presence of God that I felt inside of the service that the Sunday morning banning leisure was there preaching a revival.

I never felt the presence of God, so is pressed today and ejected earlier that we disconnected for 18 months, but on the way home that day I remember crying just the present Garfield my car. I could feel the tangible presence of the Lord, I knew the other guy was at the something I just didn't know what it is up to write so you forge a relationship there there plenty of relationships multiracial relationships multiethnic relations with with leaders men and women of God that happens all the time but something deeper happens between your your two churches so Jay what what what happened next. That makes this such an amazing story. So, about 18 months into us meeting and it wasn't just Derek and I that were meeting his wife would come, he would bring other leaders and actually the founding pastors was about to take over for they started coming out so we met every single month and really my goal was to help the kingdom get better. We save the refuge all the time were not trying to build a castle. We want to build the kingdom. So there was never thought of a merger that was never thought of.

Hey, there's a book commitment you at some point I just wanted to help them and set them up for success with this beautiful relationship but one day while we were meeting about 18 months into it. I hear the Holy Spirit suddenly asked him if I've ever talked about becoming a campus of the refuge and Dr. Brown I said in that moment internally to the Lord. Imagine this.

I have the audacity to tell God know I will not do that because I didn't want them to think I had an agenda in this and so this battle goes on inside of me for about five minutes and finally yielded to the Holy Spirit and I said I am a – you guys a question. You know my heart but have you ever had conversations about become a campus of the refuge so so this would some might think okay. Leslie corporate takeover right or the white churches that incorporate the black church summing all the stuff that was for your heads but you felt the Lord was saying to do it yes answer when I asked the question they all started laughing which really caught me off guard and then by subtle pastor.

We talk about it all the time. It was probably at that moment we realize it was something bigger unfolding that we just did not see coming, and then it was set to the backdrop we made the announcement sent to the backdrop of of great division in the city of Charlotte. It was on the national news because of the police involved shooting in the midst of that. It was like God said I'm going to write a better narrative in our story went national with that as a backdrop with the shooting in the division, the rioting, all that was going on. This was 2016 in Charlotte and it we just became aware there something bigger unfolding licensor, Derek, from your perspective. On the other side of this was the bigger saying that goblins wanted to do. Through this and nothing now that I think about it. Think racial reconciliation and unity is on the heart of God and I knew that that now I conceded that that was the big American at that time for me. I was looking for mentorship and coaching and pastor I share the story before but I was seeking for so wanted to support me about my identity and what guy was, me into as a young pastor. It didn't matter to me to pass it. There was a white middle-aged guy this matter to me that if a man was concerned enough about my soul and my leadership development.

Not only that my personal development as a husband and as a father, so I never looked at the backdrop of the story that Hagar will utilize the story to help get a message out to the world but you know it was just mean really just trying to get guidance from a mentor for from a personnel's become a spiritual father to me and so is always been about relationship is never been about the narrative that I got with the release of book to us or give us opportunity to speak and use. The story was always about relationship or from that the Holy Spirit breathed on it is become so much more than I frames that the book welded forming racial bonds that last Derek Hawkins and Jay Stewart both in the studio with me Derek what's mature hope for this book. What did you and Jay write it what you hope will happen to those that read it prayer, crazy prayer God if it if it never goes anywhere, but it goes to the people that you desire to have a heart to see change and transformation in our nation to God. Let the book go go there some prayers that that when people read this book that there will be a perspective changing awareness change, but also that we have the ability to make changes, etc. churches, businesses set of our world that can make the world a better place by doing our part and so all we want to do is create an awareness, but we know that we can't create unity, but we can particularly according to Ephesians 43 so our job is is that this will be just an eye-opener to people that don't know the consequences are just the decisions that we make every day that there is a ripple effect to obedience and disobedience is passages. She is one of our chapters that this just being obedient by reading the ending when you read it acted out live it out inside of your own echo chambers in your own communities. God, seltzer, J with a one the largest churches in our in our area here at some Charlotte and with the demographic that would be largely white, what, what have you learned as you work with Derek and and this church is not become part of the larger refuge family. What have you learned what what perspective is changed on your end. One of the great lessons I believe and we write about it in the book. There's a chapter entitled, we are better together, and I've learned more than I knew before that there's this divine orchestration of diversity that causes the body of Christ to reach its full potential. As Lord brings us together and in order for that to happen. One of the things I've learned is we have to learn to appreciate our differences not just tolerate the differences that we really are better together.

That's the beauty of covenant goes all the way back to Genesis 15, where families would come together in covenant because I recognize another family attributes that they did not possess an oblique that happens in the body of Christ you go you look at acts chapter 2, there was multiethnic representation in the upper room with her came together, and then out of that flow.

This great revival and that's what we desire to see happen. We write about the last chapter of the book that there is a revival is at stake. Unity is always a prerequisite for revival. If we want to be the fulfillment of the last prayer that Jesus prayed before going to the cross. In John 17, then we've got to learn to come together and it's not just you know Kumbaya wash each other's feet have one service.

It's much more than that and we talk about the struggles and the challenges but David the psalmist paints a beautiful picture in Psalm 133 about brothers who dwell together in unity and that's our desire and God's teaching us to walk the sling out now for the last 67 years – from your perspective got about 1/2 minutes before before the break up what you say have been some of the most interesting challenges that you and your folks have had to overcome in working together as closely as you have a look at it in the same perspective of the look emeritus of his challenges of growth opportunities gives us an opportunity to learn from each other so learned from each other that you learn what works and what doesn't work. You also get to learn a person for who they are as so just for me.

It's been a chance for me to learn different worship styles organization and leadership, teambuilding exercises, but also I learned how to be a better pastor by the leadership of the refuge and pass today so some of those contests and income for that we see inside of our Christian women coat church demographics you don't understand what we can do when he says that we are better together we really are better together sublet a lot, but I can take this from him just learning how to be prioritizing family and that is not just you know doing this thing that we can do this thing, but no man we can actually do it. The leading of the Holy Spirit and God is raising up this search to do something amazing that I would've never thought even possible without this man's God is the leadership of my life have learned so much from him and leaving the church and become a healthy church. We had no divergent flow talk about 0.30.1 percent diversity, but now our church is becoming multiethnic family that more diverse than it's ever been. Because of the leadership of the rift amazing in an image of a marriage. The goal is not to get the husband to become like the wife or the wife and husband, but to find that loving union but one you can do you think you continue know what my friends white pastor New York was meeting with like pastors, Hispanic pastors and other white pastors and he said okay what spirit when you meet like what your number one value most important thing in the white pastors like bottom line get to the bottom.

What's the bottom line in the black pastors, honor, honor the Hispanic pastors. Let's have a party. I will be right back. It's the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 6634 through here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Okay, I'm looking at the endorsements, which is looking itself front of welded forming racial bonds that last pastors Derek Hawkins Jay Stewart I'm in your your time of people like Tony Evans and Robert Morris with some of the leading pastors in America. Sandra Rodrigues is there if you've got lack white Hispanics of the top names in America endorsing this book. It's it's not just edifying but it's practical.

It's inspiring. It's practical and it's so absolutely critical and our day again. The book well that you can check it out on on Amazon or is there a Derek's website. Folks can go to Jericho.

It will you can get a will to and order a copy of a copy of the book or Christian to order a copy, but where it basically said of everybody and was gone at Amazon right now and then what we are asking people to do is not this order one copy but order two copies.

We want you to so a book in the somebody of a different ethnicity you and spread the message of welded across the world. I got it so two copies when your order right to copy so that we go over to you for a moment we live through a very tumultuous year in 2020 and one of the great great challenges has been the Dessa people like George Floyd and and and with our Berean others and and and then the protests and then riots so there obviously causes that deserve attention. Then there things that just become causes for disruption, etc. to sort that out.

You know the statement apply because matter versus the BLM movement are tremendously controversial moment and then the elections when you have white evangelicals tend to vote only black evangelical central another way, how did you process this in your relationship between the churches use men of God. How did you process difficult times like this you just avoid the issues which you speak into them. Nothing that we been very hittable about the issues we had a racial reconciliation a few months back and we really hit the tough issues because a lot of you know why people come up to resent him if you guys hate cops. And that we don't hate cops.

Is this anything that you see this negative we want to make sure that we get good cops in this the same thing to say it does black lives matter and I said is the president, hashtag. I don't have but to be has a lot to quote a hashtag. I am a black live and I know my life matters, but that doesn't mean that I support the organization right that allows men and there's a difference and so you have to draw a line between truth and I think that we have to stand on truth and I think most people don't have an understanding of what we mean or different. They succumb because there's not relationship anything about us that messed not just my pastor is a spiritual father so there's been times in our conversation when we sit down and we just have heart dialogue.

It may be schismatic know that our maybe he said, and I never heard that passage that we actually watch the amount Arboretum video together.

That was his first time seeing it my first time seeing it at the same time and then add an action have to put a post about it. He knew that resonated with me as an African-American son, so the thing is, do we need to hate the spirit of riot because I think it destroys our communities that they get in the flames what so many have hard-working African-Americans and white Americans are built together to so many different ethnicities that have helped build our country such a magnificent way so out I bumped protests a different spears than the rest am totally against the right. I think of the flames. What we work so hard for to build our country in the right with God. It said the key thing is to have the conversations and that's why I benefited just by being on talk radio and having people call and share their life experience is so different than my really helped shape my perspective and an inner JII did a little Twitter poll the other day and I said, when did you learn that the southern Baptist convention, said that this denomination was formed specifically to break away from the northern Baptist because the southern Baptist wanted to keep their slaves exit when did you first learn this and that the options were just now within the last year. Within the last 10 years or always knew it, and the largest percentage was just now so two of a black American Christians like what is learned now to why Chris is like I had no idea what there's there's a lot of learning experiences that we both have gone through this OJ, how did you process this on your end as a white Christian leader in the midst of the riots protest what you feel your responsibilities work. I felt as a leader and a pastor special is a white influential leader that was very important in imperative that we can constantly point people back to the gospel. That's the great uniter. The Holy Spirit is the great uniter so we can appoint people back to the gospel but we were not afraid to speak had only some of the issues that were so pertinent you know in our culture and in our day. We felt like it was important that we courageously address those things where here's a principal we've tried operate under nexus that we seek to understand more than we seek to be understood. So when we sit down at the table and we have uncomfortable conversations. Most of the time people come with their agenda and they want to make sure when they walk. Agenda table that personally oversaw the table understands them.

We should lay that down and come to the table with the goal of understanding the other person more in the second thing Dr. Brown is that we have valued relationship more than we value being right that relation. Everything flows out of relationship and we said you know what, if we can agree the thing that's most important is that we guard the relationship.

That's what the Bible calls for us to do this to protect unities dirt mentioned earlier, only the Holy Spirit can create unity. Our job is to protect unities to fiercely fight for that.

So we we try to lead people and say look, we can have tough conversations but here are some things we have to keep in mind when we do if were going to be the fulfillment of John 17 ever gonna find that place that the Lord commands his blessing on someone 33 talks about probably will have to operate under those principles and and obviously things do come back to simple gospel truths and and ultimately love and it's not about trying to be woke or trying something is that the people and see through that. Anyway, it's so superficial right, but because you generally love you. I get this right and it was a tractor with a black friend the other day and he said you know he said we see as as knowingly as Jewish person. He said we look at slavery, segregation, the way you look at the Holocaust. He said how as a simile white Christians constructor shows a bus pass this out the way things are anymore and end but many times it's not because of a racist attitude simply based on ignorance, not having information and in this thing is okay we have to have let let our worlds be rocked, but let them be based on truth and love so soon. Derek, what would you say has been eye-opening for you to learn with your greater interaction with white Christians. My church maybe ever had in your life if you like a minute what you say is been maybe the most eye-opening thing from your perspective splenomegaly as deep as you think about why people can cook residents and visitors of my life. I love you so this is a matter of learning the system family and really community been around passage of the passes from the refuge they really taught Mrs. a family and because of that, and that there in the word of God may really devoting themselves are famous man get up every morning for 5 o'clock in the morning and and devote himself to reading the word and praying is life a consecration to see so many similarities in the face of the loan is woven aside of my heart and my life and this is a mark admirable for me to be able look at that is the master DNA they can erase. Was going on in the election of politics or anything of that nature.

We get back down to the core of things we both want to see the same thing our love for Christ of our love for God and family in our church supersedes the divisiveness that the enemy will use you to separate us and so that's what they some of the most awesome awesome yeah it's so so critically important healthy delay these things out in NJ I will if you have anything as profound about the cooking, but that what one minute.

What would be the most eye-opening thing for you will pastor Derek is elevated must you gain for sure, but I have such a great appreciation and love for the prayer life of many African-Americans goes all the way back and we write about the history of why they're such a prayer anointing on African-Americans. We write about it in the last chapter, I do. And I've really been challenged by that of been provoked in a good way by the depth of their prayer life and how the press into the presence of God. It really has made me a better person pastor. I am such a better man because a pastor Derek Hawkins and all of our people in our Greensburg campus yeah and let me let me say something from the heart here and this is not manufactured focusing on the air every day and it's 12 years of daily radio, but I generally feel from the heart.

Just sitting here with my two brothers and having this conversation. I feel like a better person for nightlife. Feel personally enriched by by their love for one another love for God and just laying out what really matters. These fundamental truths of some friends. Here's the deal. We've only got a minute left in with two preachers react thoroughly without rights revert to him interviewing so I could say you don't closing word with your list, let's let's try this right. 15 seconds Derek what are you hoping will happen to readers of this book that their laws will be transforming the presence of the Lord will break out any state was any racial barriers anything that will prevent the gospel from spreading awesome J when but you 15 seconds are gonna learn things about history: theology and I believe they're going to be provoked to hunger for revival like never before.

Awesome, right. Here's the book welded. This is the name of the bucket and go to or their church you just go to Amazon I get two copies. You got doctors orders there.

I get two copies of the Derek Hawkins and Jay Stewart and then listen as an author I can tell you it's a real blessing if the book blesses you tell the friends of social media take a picture of it put a link to Amazon post review this get the word out. It is a career I don't know a more important message for the body right now is really something. God bless you

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