Contemporary Prophecy: Discernment and Accountability

Prophetic ministry today. What's real? What's not? What's good? What's bad?

What about discernment? That's 866-344-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Call a friend, text a friend, message a friend. You do not want to miss a moment of this next hour. Tell everybody you know to tune in. If you're on the radio, if you're listening online, if you're watching online, however you're taking this in, spread this message. It's very, very important. Michael Brown here. Welcome to the line of fire.

Number to call 866-344-866-348-7884. We're going to focus the entire hour on discussing prophetic ministry today. Why we believe in it, how we discern, what role it plays, what about accountability, and what about all these prophecies about the 2020 elections.

And I couldn't think of a better person to discuss this with than my good friend, Dr. Joseph Matera. He's the founding pastor of Resurrection Church in Brooklyn. Oh, where do we start with credentials? Leads a number of organizations, the U.S. Coalition of Apostolic Leaders, Christ Covenant Coalition, written 11 best-selling books, Poisonous Power, the most recent, whole lot to talk about.

But if you have a question specifically related to prophetic ministry, we will take some calls as well as we go. Joe, welcome back to the broadcast. Thanks for joining us today.

Well, it's a joy to be with you again, my friend. Yeah, crazy times we're living in today, huh? Oh, yeah. There's pressure from within the church and outside the church. There's civil rights issues that are going out there. There's health issues, and then now we have a huge controversy with the body of Christ. Yeah, so not just the elections, but many prophetic words about the elections and a unanimous chorus of charismatic prophets all saying that Trump would be elected to a second term, meaning a second consecutive term for what we understood. And many saying, hey, God spoke it, we need to contend for it, it's going to happen.

Others saying they're false prophets, stone them. So we want to talk this through. But Joe, first, if you could give, in the simplest terms, your understanding of what we refer to as five-fold ministry and why it's important.

Sure. In Ephesians 4, verse 11, it tells us that God has given some to the apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, and evangelists, and they're given to perfect or mature the saints for the work of the ministry, so that we're not tossed to and fro, so that we mature, so that we come to the fullness of the stature of the fullness of Christ as a corporate son, not just individuals as a church. So without the five-fold ministry operating, it greatly limits the capacity of not only each individual believer, but also the body of Christ in general of maturing.

All right. And just to break down a few specific things, when we talk about apostle, this is not some highly exalted title. Many people here think of what you're like. You're like John or Peter or Paul or you're writing scripture of that kind of authority. So when you use the term, when we do in five-fold ministry, it's just it's no different in terms of another office or position of service. You know, pastor, teacher, evangelist.

We're just here to serve. But what's the difference between being called to to be an apostle as we understand the term, not one of the twelve, but like others, like Barnabas in the New Testament, recall the apostles. So a small a apostle. What's the difference between that and pastor? Well, Jesus chose 12 apostles to start the church because their gifting is one of being a pioneer, an entrepreneur.

They're constantly called to extend territory. It was used in Roman Greco culture. An apostle was someone sent to conquer territory for the Roman Empire. So is more of a military than a religious term that Jesus borrowed, which is nothing new.

He borrowed a term ekklesia, which was used since 687 B.C. as a group of people who came together to to lead a city in Greek culture. So Jesus regularly used a common vernacular to depict functions and descriptions of people that were going to be his followers, especially some who would lead.

All right. So and so someone called to apostolic ministry would be would pioneer new territory, would maybe birth a movement of missions or something like that. You know, maybe some of the founders of denominations, you know, that's what it became. But but they were really apostolic people like a John Wesley or a Hudson Taylor. Is that how you would see it? Yeah.

Yeah. And the funny thing is, while they were alive, nobody called them apostles. But once they died, they were called apostles.

So it's pretty funny. But yeah, John Wesley is a great exemplar of what an apostle is. And, you know, I would agree probably with you that we don't like to throw the title around. So we use it more of an adjective. So Paul, it's not called the apostle Paul in Scripture. It's more Paul and apostle.

So we feel more comfortable with that because that avoids unnecessary hierarchical titular kind of descriptions that could lift one person up over another. It's more of a way of describing how we serve based on the DNA ministry gift of Jesus. As you look in the five, I'm sorry, the four gospels, you see all fivefold ministry in its fullness.

And so people have a piece of that fivefold ministry. And it's not just limited to so-called full-time church ministry. There was no such bifurcation in the early church.

There was no difference between the workplace and the church place. And so it tells us in Ephesians 4-7 that to each one of us is given a gift according to the measure of the grace of Christ. And the context of that is Ephesians 4-11. Thus, we can conclude that everybody in the church functions in at least one of these five gifts. Although not everyone's called to be a spiritual leader in an ecclesiastical body.

So there's a difference there. All right, so in other words, because Jesus exemplifies all these things and we're called to follow him, we're all called to be soul winners. And some really are gifted soul winners, but they work full-time vocational jobs. They don't have an evangelist title. And yet they're flowing as evangelists. Someone else, you're like the caretaker of your office place, you know, and watching over people. That's like a pastoral heart, but that person is not functioning as a pastor in a vocational way. What about profits?

Why do we need profits in the fivefold function? Where do they fit today? Right. Well, in the natural world, even if someone's not saved, they could have a prophetic proclivity. And those would be the people we would call secular prophets or futurists.

People with incredible insight that predict trends and help people know where to invest their money or governments to know what is going to happen in the military. So those kind of things are there. But when it comes to the church, God takes our gifts. He sanctifies it, He anoints it, and then it's used to His glory. And so in the New Testament, we do have people that are called prophets like Agabus, Silas, and others. And even the church in Antioch was not even led by an apostle initially. It said there were prophets and teachers in Acts 13.1 that were leading that church. So we do see a continuation of the prophetic ministry. However, there's a huge difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament, and that's where a lot of the church is confused today, even some notable ministers, in my opinion.

All right, lay out some of the biggest differences in areas of confusion that you see. Well, in the Old Testament, if a prophet made a mistake, he was called a false prophet. He could be stoned to death because there was a dream or a vision specifically from Yahweh that would come to them.

And there was no room for error, basically. But in the New Testament, there's more leeway. It tells us in 1 Corinthians 14, 29 that when someone gives a prophetic word, the other prophetic people should judge it. 1 Thessalonians 5, 19 and 21 tells us not to quench prophecies or to quench the Spirit, but to test all things. 1 John 4 tells us to test the spirits. And so we see very much difference in the New Testament approach seems to be that God gives us a little more leverage, because the Holy Spirit's mingling with our spirit. Everybody has the Holy Spirit in the New Testament, otherwise you're not a Christian according to Romans 8, but we're to be primarily led by the Spirit as sons of God. Romans 8, 14. But that could come out through prophetic words, it could come out through a word in our spirit, a collective word to the church as Jesus gave to the seven churches of Revelation in Revelation 2 and 3. But because the Spirit of God is moving through a human spirit, it tells us in 1 Corinthians 14 that we prophesy in part, and we know in part, which shows there are some limitations as opposed to the Old Testament, where believing in the prophets was akin to believing in God himself, because what they said generally be equal to Scripture.

So there's a big difference between the Old and New Testament prophetic function. So let's kind of use this analogy, which just comes to me now. You're defusing a bomb, and you either cut the red wire or the blue wire. If the red wire is the right one, thousands of lives are saved.

If the red wire is the wrong one, everybody blows up. So you have to get it right, because the stakes are high. That would be like Old Testament prophets, they were speaking words of direction for the nation, and the people themselves didn't have the ability to hear God. So they got it right, it was salvation for the nation. They got it wrong, it could be judgment, destruction, they could be led after idols. So therefore, if you spoke presumptuously, false prophet, you get stoned to death. In the New Testament, it's not like you cut the right wire and everything's hinging on the prophetic word, because all of us have the Holy Spirit within us. All of us have, of course, the Word of God first and foremost. We can discern, so if a prophet came to me, someone with a proven track record, and said, Mike, the Lord told me you're to quit this ministry here, relocate to this state, and start this new work.

If the Holy Spirit didn't speak that to me, it would be in one ear and out the other, because I'm responsible as a child of God to follow His leading. So we've just got 30 seconds before the break, but are you concerned that some brothers and sisters in prophetic ministry today are wanting to be followed as if they had the authority of Old Testament prophets? I'm not as concerned about some of the prophetic leaders, although I don't know each one personally, but I think that their followers, which are diffuse, I mean, we don't know where they're at, we don't know how mature they are, and it's easy for them to read the Old Testament without biblical training and think that, oh, we should believe the prophets, like it says in 2 Chronicles 20.

And if we don't, we're not going to prosper. They think they're supposed to be led by prophets, where it tells us in Hebrews 1 that God spoke in the prophets, but now He has spoken through His Son. Right, so the ultimate revelation comes through Jesus.

Of course, the Holy Spirit continues to speak in many different ways, but we cannot apply Old Testament texts if we don't want to use Old Testament tests. Just getting started. It's The Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. We are talking about prophetic accountability. Many of you don't believe prophetic ministry exists. That's a whole other discussion, and that's something we've talked about many times on the air and happy to talk about it again to those who question it or feel it's dangerous or unbiblical. Others believe in it, recognize it, have seen it work, see it as being totally scriptural, but are trying to sort out accountability, prophetic words today. We'll be getting to calls in a little while, 866-34-TRUTH.

For those watching, you can see I've got a New York shirt on in honor of, well, where I spent my first 32 years and where Dr. Joe Matera has lived his life. So, Joe, aside from scriptural testimony that we could use to argue for our prophetic ministry continually, not adding to the Bible, but the Holy Spirit speaking, Jesus said, My sheep, hear my voice. Could you give an example or two of something you've seen through someone or through yourself or experienced yourself that indicates the ongoing reality and importance of prophetic ministry? Oh, boy, I wish I wrote a journal of just incredible, accurate words. I have written words since 1980. Actually, I do have a journal, and it's filled with so many pages of accurate words. So I believe in the prophetic.

One example was in 1988 or 9, I believe it was, our church was really growing, and we were desperate for an administrator, but we didn't have the money, and I didn't know what to do. So I spent a whole day in fasting and prayer. Nobody knew about this.

I didn't even tell my wife. I was just spending the whole day. It was really burdening me. And three hours into my fast, my spiritual overseer, John Kelly, called me up, and he said, Hey, Joe, I was just thinking, do you need an administrator? And I said, yes, and he sent me an administrator that served free of charge for one year to get us off the ground. Another time I was fasting and praying whether or not I should start a network of churches. I got prophetic words from three different people, including John Kelly, and I didn't take their word for it. I said, Look, I'm going to set aside these days to pray and fast. And it was in the middle of January, and I started my three-day fast. And not even two or three hours into the fast, I get a call from an intercessor who godly knows me, who lived in Maryland. She prophesied that I was in the birth canal giving birth to something big.

Another intercessor called me from Texas and said virtually the same thing. And then one of my best friends, Lenny Weston, called me up and he said, God, show me you're starting a network. Why didn't you talk to me about it?

What's going on, Joe? This, within the first three hours that I set myself to pray and fast, to this day it blows my mind. I could tell you other stories.

Just incredible. You know, I ran into a guy in D.C., and I journal daily, but I wish I had noted more things before I started journaling years back and documenting more of the things I've experienced. But I remember running into a guy in D.C. I'd known him previously in different ministry work. He was always kind of jeans, t-shirt kind of guy and, you know, helped out administratively behind the scenes and no political involvement, anything like that. I see him in D.C.

He's wearing a suit and tie. What happened to you, man? He says, oh, it's an amazing story. Haven't you heard? He'd just gotten off the phone with several governors on a conference call. He was working with another major Republican candidate and their political campaign. I mean, a right hand man to this person.

What happened? He said, well, this one this one sister that he knew with a proven prophetic ministry had a word over him and how God was going to raise him up to work in D.C. and work in the political realm and that he needed three new suits immediately because they didn't have any for the job he was going to be doing. Right after that, someone contacts him.

The Lord told me, I'm supposed to buy you three new suits, get some of the suit. The next thing is connected. I mean, these they may seem small, but when it's year in, year out, year in, year out, you recognize the reality of this. And obviously we all have questions. So things we pray about for years without getting answers and things we go through that we don't have all the insight for. But so many times God does speak.

And yet we also see people get things wrong. You have a great article. It is on Joseph Matera. That's M.A.T.T.E.R.A.

Joseph Matera dot org. Eight reasons why some prophetic voices do not have 20 20 vision. All right. We're going to start going through that. But if in fact the Lord has spoken through a host of prophets that Donald Trump will be reelected and they're they're believing not just in four years, but now reelected and that there's been fraud and it's going to be overturned if that comes to pass. That's wonderful.

If you feel the content for that, do it. I'm contending for the will of God to be done for corruption, whatever is to be exposed and let God take it from there. But the question does come up because there were prophecies about covid ending in mid-April or dissipating that that did not happen. We've we've all seen false prophecies. We don't stone the people as false prophets. If they're a believer, someone who loves the Lord, a solid believer, but they prophesy falsely. We say they're falsely claiming to be a prophet or they're making mistakes and we we sit them down and they lose their credibility. A false prophet is a wolf in sheep's clothing. But you've been in this. You've taught in prophetic ministry, work with with many prophetic leaders.

Let's go through some of the reasons that people get things wrong if they turn out to be right about Trump now. Awesome. Praise God. Wonderful.

I voted for him. Wonderful. Let it be. But we've seen this prophecies already this year with covid. There's a concern about lack of accountability in the charismatic church, which is a valid, valid concern. So how about we start going through your list of eight reasons why prophets sometimes mishear, get things wrong? Sure. But I want to make sure people know that I'm not taking away or disparaging those who believe in God for Trump to be reelected through litigation.

My main concern, though, is the church, the confusion, the division that I see, not the election in this article. So I just want to make sure that's clear. Got it. Yeah.

Thank you for clarifying that. Absolutely. And some of the people on the front line saying God spoke this is going to happen are personal friends of ours, people that we love and we know to be solid men of God or women of God. So we're not disparaging any of that. But because God didn't tell me the outcome, I can't contend as if I can't believe what someone else said. Even if it's 10 people, I still have to go by what I know in my own heart. OK, so let's let's go through the list. Eight reasons why prophetic voices sometimes make mistakes. You can find this at Joseph Matera dot org.

All right, go ahead. OK, so one is they prophesy out of their own human spirit. Jeremiah talks about that in Chapter 23, how they speak out of their own heart, but they don't speak the word of the Lord.

And that's a very common problem because it's hard to tell the difference between our soul and our spirit. That's the job of the word of God. Hebrews 4 11. It tells us that the word divides soul and spirit.

We know we're a tripartite being. It tells us that spirit, soul and body is what we're made of. First Thessalonians 5 23. So the trick is not to think God is speaking if you feel strongly about something in your emotions or your soul. Sometimes very hard to tell the difference between our human spirit and our soul and the Holy Spirit. And sometimes it could be our human spirit and not our emotions, but it's not the Holy Spirit.

So, yeah, let me give an example of when I experienced this in my own life and tell me if this is what you're talking about. A couple moved to Maryland to be part of our ministry in 1987. The wife became the secretary at our ministry school and her husband. They moved because her husband was diagnosed with inoperable brain cancer.

And when I first met her, it's like, no, it can't be, you know, the same age as my wife and I, that two daughters, same age as our daughters. So I was determined he's going to live. Michael's got Michael's. I'm going to die. And then just as I finished opening service at a major new conference or something, he have a seizure right there in front.

It was almost like a challenge right in our face. And as time went on, I really thought he's going to make it. He's going to live. And we saw some amazing breakthroughs and things that doctors had no answer for at a certain point.

I believe this was around 1989. Now, I believe that I stepped from my own fervent desire to see him live, to begin to say you're going to live. You're going to live, you know, in a prophetic way. You will be healed.

And ultimately, he died in 89. And I've never since then prophesied to someone that you're going to live because I just my own correction. I thought, OK, I somehow my intense desire to see them healed bled into now saying you will be healed. You will be healed.

And I know everything's conditional, but I didn't present it like that. Is that an example when we want something so bad that we now speak it as if it's a prophecy? Yeah, as a pastor for 37 years, the most common example, which definitely would correspond to what you just said, would be a man falls in love with a woman. And after he allows himself to fall in love with her, he goes and prays about it. And his soul is so filled with passion for this woman. He can't distinguish between his emotions and God's spirit. And he says, I have a piece about it. God has spoken to me.

This is my wife. Of course, I've seen the reverse as well. Women believing for a particular person, a man in the election. It's also possible some of us have had such strong passion for the reelection of Donald Trump that the same principle can apply where we miss it because our soul overrides the ability to hear the clear voice of God. That's also possible. Again, I'm not saying that some of our respected friends, those who are still contending, I'm saying it is a principle possibility.

Got it. And then the problem is, when it doesn't happen, instead of recognizing, OK, I really wanted it to happen, it didn't. Now people's faith is shattered because what God said it would happen. We mistake our emotions for the voice of God.

All right, much more to come. Go to JosephMatera.org. Check out the article right now posted eight reasons why some prophetic voices do not have 20-20 vision. When we come back, I want to bring on some of your calls to go through with Joe, and we'll keep going through his article. Also, my dear friend Craig Keener, one of the world's top New Testament scholars, has a great article on Christianity today when political prophecies don't come to pass. The Bible includes false prophets and true prophets whose words turn out to be false.

See what Craig has to say in Christianity today. We'll be right back. I just want to say something about the elections. If you've not heard me or not followed me, maybe you have this question. For example, Maya's asking on Facebook, she says the election's over, Biden's won. Will I now follow Trump in his attempted coup?

Here's the deal, Maya. Whoever the American people voted for is my president. Barack Obama was my president, although I didn't vote for him. George Bush before that was my president. I voted for him. Bill Clinton was my president before that.

I didn't vote for him. So let the courts go through what they go through, right? It's a fair process. The election has not yet been certified, okay?

And if the final decision is that Joe Biden won the election, then he has my prayers and he is my president. Period. No mystery there.

No mystery. In fact, I hope people will pray for him as much as they pray for Trump. And if Trump, in fact, won the election fairly and squarely and there's been fraud, then let it be exposed. That should be the position of every single one of us. Every single one of us. You say, we just want a truthful election.

That's what we want. And then whoever wins, let there be a peaceful transition of power without rioting in the streets, and let's pray with all our might for whoever that next president is. That should be the position of every one of us who's a follower of Jesus. All right. So I'm speaking with Dr. Joe Matera, leader, highly respected international leader and leader of leaders, his website, josephmatera.org.

We're talking about prophetic issues, prophetic accountability. And if you enjoy the broadcast and want to stand with us watching on Facebook, there's a dollar sign or donate sign. Just click on that. Stand with us.

Any gift of any size helps on YouTube. There's a dollar sign beneath the chat window. So thanks for standing with us and on the website, askdr.brown.org, the donate button. Hey, Joe, we've got a ton of things to go through, but folks have some questions about prophetic accountability. So let me bring some callers on and then we'll keep going through your article.

So we start with Brian in Cleveland, Ohio. Please ask your question, sir. How you guys doing? So here's my question. Enjoying the conversation.

You know, I'm definitely a continuationist. I believe it gives to the spirit and all of that. Affirm what you guys are saying.

So here's my concern. When you have prophets such as Jeremiah Johnson who are saying they're hearing God's audible voice. As opposed to a dream or a vision where there's some interpretation and he's going to it for me. Doesn't that seem a little different? You know, having a dream, having to interpret it through the flesh. We see in the mirror dimly.

I can understand getting that details wrong. But if I was to stand up and say I heard God's audible voice tell me Donald Trump's going to be president and then it doesn't happen. Why don't you guys agree that we should deal with that a lot more severely for the sake of the sheep who are being damaged by these type of prophecies? And I say this as a pastor, I'm a pastor in the Christian Missionary Alliance, and I've seen people get tricked up into this stuff. Even through Jeremiah Johnson, and I'm demonizing him, but I've seen some people be misled through his ministry and some of these prophetic words that don't come to pass. So as a pastor, I see the damage that this does to the sheep. Don't you guys, wouldn't you guys agree that we need to deal with this a little more severely than just, hey, they missed it? What are your thoughts? Yeah, you go first, Joe. Well, yeah, I don't follow the prophets.

I don't get on social media. My director does that for me, so I'm not sure what the context of it is. But all I could say is my position is because I fear God, and I'm not saying Jeremiah or others don't, and because there's room for error, as elucidated in my article, I very rarely say, thus sayeth the Lord. I only say I believe the Lord is saying this, and I submit it to respected leaders before I release it publicly. And I'm very, very concerned with people who say God has told them something. Well, the Bible tells us in 1 Corinthians 14 that we should submit it to other prophets, 1 Corinthians 14, 29. So how could someone judge it if it's of God, if you already said God told you?

We can't judge God. So I train in our School of the Prophets when I've done that in the past years, and all those I mentor. Please try to get away from saying the Lord told you this and the Lord told you that, because if you make one mistake, it's going to hurt your credibility. Say, I believe the Lord is saying this, and submit it for other people to pray on it and to try to weigh in on it and confirm it.

Thanks, Joe. And then, Brian, I know Jeremiah ministered for him many times. I believe he fears God deeply, and he said that if there are any errors in terms of what's happening now and prophecies about Trump, he wants to correct them.

So, you know, that's a bridge to cross if that happens. But I do believe that we are very much out of order today in a lot of the charismatic church that we kind of follow the prophets. It's not a biblical order.

You know what I'm saying? That all the ministries flow together and are submitted one to another. And you don't have the independent prophet ministry that's outside of the body, outside of other ministries, outside of local churches that, you know, can kind of just give a word to the whole church. You know, for example, William Branham, who had a powerful healing ministry and word of knowledge ministry, began to feel that he was Elijah, that he was the last end time prophet. There is no prophet on the planet today that has the word of the Lord for the whole body. The word of the Lord for the whole body is the Bible. That being said, there's no question that God has supernaturally worked through many prophets.

I think we've let things get out of order. And if so, this is all hypothetical. OK, if someone claims that they heard the audible voice of the Lord, so not a dream where they got the interpretation wrong and not a sense of something that they put their own two cents in. But rather, they claim a revelation on that level and factually, undeniably, when you went through all the options, it proved out false. Then there has to be some very serious soul searching, very serious discussion of how the error or the deception could be on that level. And then we just have to have built in accountability within the body. Look, I I strongly differ with my cessationist friends that say the things of the spirit are not for today and prophecies not for today. And, you know, ridicule, prophetic gifts, some I call hyper critics that I think are doing terribly destructive work.

But I totally agree with many of them. There is a massive lack of accountability amidst my book Playing with Holy Fire deals with the lack of self policing. Joe Matera and I, Bishop Matera and I were involved with the whole Todd Bentley situation and trying to bring some level of discipline and accountability to a situation there. So a very, very serious, important question, how exactly it's handled.

We have to look at exactly what happens. All right. Let's grab another question here.

Timothy in Houston, Texas. What's your question for Dr. Matera and me? Hi, Dr. Brown. Thanks for taking my call. First time caller and I'm really excited to talk to you here. I was turned on the ministry by Dr. Heiser.

He's just tackled me quite a bit via the Internet. And I was interested in politics. I'm really passionate about this topic. In my younger years, when I was a kid, I'm 34 now, but I worked with a well known high profile ministry. But involved in the prophetic and, you know, interacted with the church and politics and social issues and whatnot.

You know, I really got a little bit kind of burned by a lot of this environment. You know, I still believe in the gifts in the prophetic. I operate in my own spiritual life, you know, fasting, listening to the Lord, discernment. But, you know, I guess I've always kind of wanted to address this and trying to figure out, you know, what you guys thought practically or some things that, you know, essentially the church can do when, you know, ministries are operating in this way. I don't know if you'd call it church discipline or accountability structure. Yes. Well, we have abuses.

Just to jump in for time's sake. And thanks for calling in, Timothy. So, Joe, there are abuses. What do we do in the local church and then on a national level where there are abuses? And there are abuses with, you know, each aspect of ministry has its abuses and we have to deal with them. So in the local church, Joe, how do you deal with abusive prophetic ministry? And then as a national leader, how do you address these things? Well, in the local church, really, personal prophecy should never be done except in the presence of elders or mature Christians that can judge it.

And that will spare the one giving the word from being taken out of context and the one receiving the word from only hearing what they want to hear and or getting a false word. Nationally, I'm very, very concerned. I've written many articles on the danger of the Internet prophet, on social media, you know, without. We don't know their marriage. We don't know if they're in a local church. We don't know who they're accountable to. But they go on Facebook Live and they start dropping all these prophetic words.

Next thing you know, they're 50,000 followers. And it totally violates First Timothy three. There's no grid for them being raised up or nurtured through the character qualifications and ecclesial protocols of what an elder or deacon or even a any leader should go through, as it's noted in First Timothy three.

And so without any grid, they're dropping these words. And people who do not know the word of God and or are not submitted to a local church and or are not discipled by mature leaders in the church are going to just follow these people. Because again, they don't know the difference between Old Testament New Testament prophet is sincere, and they think they're hearing God through this person, and they have not yet been short enough to hear God for themselves or know the word of God for themselves. So I'm very concerned. I think it could be a blessing, but it could be a curse. The internet and the garnering of all these followers without knowing who these people are. And there needs to be a demand by the body of Christ that each pastor and or prophet or anybody should show what collective they're part of, who they're accountable to, what group. It doesn't have to be a denomination. It could be a movement.

It could be association. But there needs to be some kind of collective and a presbytery that people are accountable to, whether formal or informal. Otherwise, they're just somebody who could be a train wreck waiting to happen, and they'll bring down many in the body of Christ. Thanks for the words of wisdom there. And Timothy, thanks for the call. And again, if you're just tuning in, Joe Matera and I believe in prophetic ministry today. We have been personally blessed and enriched by prophetic ministry that we've received in our own lives. And some of the ones that people want to stone today as false prophets are friends and colleagues of ours. And we've seen them used by the Lord many times over the years. So our goal is to be constructive.

Our goal is if there's criticism, it's constructive. Those of you who are sure that God has spoken to you or to many that Trump will be the next president, then you believe for that if you're sure of it. He didn't speak that to me. So I'm saying, God, your will. Bring about your will.

He'll fill in the blanks. It's The Line of Fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural and spiritual revolution. Get into The Line of Fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks, friends, for joining us on The Line of Fire. All right.

Because I want to get to some more questions and calls. We won't be able to go through this full article. So go to Joseph Matera dot org.

That's Matera, M-A-T-T-E-R-A, Joseph Matera dot org. Read his new important article, eight reasons why some prophetic voices do not have 20-20 vision. He is not saying that people have not heard from God about Trump. We shall see.

All right. He's not discouraging you from believing what you believe God's put in your heart. Others may be praying in a very different direction. But he is breaking these things down because already we've seen with covid certain prophetic words that didn't come to pass, et cetera. And either way, prophetic ministry is just one part of the whole body doesn't lead the body.

So some of the other reasons. So one reason you can prophesy wrongly. You prophesied of your own spirit and that you prophesied to your base. You know, the people that follow you and that you prophesy beyond your level of faith. So read the whole article. All right. But let me ask you, Joe, some questions.

For time's sake, I'm not going to bring the callers on, but Ariel from Palatine, Illinois, has been holding the whole show. Is a prophet a role or an office? Well, I'm more comfortable with, in the New Testament, not saying the apostolic is an office, the prophetic is an office.

I look at it more as a function. I think the original 12 apostles were an office of apostle, because they were institutionally the foundation of the church until Jesus comes back for the church. But everybody else builds upon that foundation, and it's not that you're an apostle everywhere you go, because you only have apostolic ministry according to the measure of rule that God has given you geographically or to certain kinds of networks. Prophetically, I would say that some move in the gifts of prophecy more often than others, but it doesn't mean that they stand in a five-fold ministry, prophetic role, because everybody could prophesy, it tells us, in the Bible. 1 Corinthians 13 and 14 tells us all could prophesy and edify the church. But those who are leaders in the church, who have a strong prophetic proclivity and bent, which goes beyond just mere prophetic words, it goes beyond prophetic analyzation, perspective, foundational roles needed by the church. They could oversee churches, networks. True New Testament prophetic people are very hard to discern the difference between them and apostolic people. Usually, the way I discern the difference is what apostles will speak in principle, prophets usually prophesy it.

They need inspiration. The apostolic usually speaks out of a wealth of wisdom and experience in governmental understanding. So there is some nuance there, but I'm comfortable more with a function, if anything, to stop a lot of the abuse that takes place in charismatic circles. Got it.

Hey, thank you for the question and for holding. So would someone who functions prophetically, not just gift of prophecy, but as we're talking about leadership role in the body locally or nationally, would that person be the one that's more likely to see where the train is going off the track, where there's sin in the camp, where there's a certain jealousy for the glory of God and departing from that? Or is that taking an Old Testament function in your view and putting it in the new? No, I think there's a similarity between both covenants.

I'm not hyper-dispensational, so I believe that there is a continuation of understanding. We could understand, for example, the personality type of prophets in the Old Testament and understand how they could function in the new. The biggest difference, though, is that in the Old Testament, if you made a mistake, you were a false prophet. New Testament, there's room for judgment. But other than that, there's a lot of similarities, and both Testaments have prophets who are concerned with, and of course the First Testament would be Israel, and they were covenant prosecutors upholding the covenant standards and the ethics and the law of God, and coming against the kings and the priests and the other prophets if they broke or violated the covenant in the New Testament. They're also motivated by the glory of God. Jesus is coming back for a glorious church, and so they're motivated about correcting the church or making sure it's at the right place, making sure that the gospel is not watered down, and yes, being jealous for the glory of God. That's what a true heart of a prophet would be.

They're first and foremost God-lovers, not man-pleasers. So that's the similarity between both Testaments, in my opinion. Yeah, it's scary how much we see things alike as we compare notes, but a good scary positive.

It doesn't mean we're right on everything, but we're very much in harmony in our understanding of this. What about conditionality? Joseph in Miami is asking about prophecy being conditional. We know Jeremiah 18 lays out a principle that when God says he's going to bless a nation and they turn to sin, then he'll turn the blessing into a curse. If he says he's going to judge them and they repent, then he'll turn that judgment into blessing.

We see that Jonah proclaims Nineveh will be destroyed in 40 days, the people repent, and God rescinds the judgment. So how does conditionality play into the current discussion about the elections and the broader question of prophecy? When we use Jeremiah 18 or Jonah in the book of Jonah with Nineveh, that was all part of Scripture, so God gave an overview of why the prophecy didn't come to pass. So there was a lot of context there to avoid confusion, and I'm sure that the prophets brought out those facts in the context of those words. But in the New Testament, if I prophesy to someone that God has raised you up or is calling you to be an apostle, we know that that's conditional upon your obedience. But when we prophesy other things, we have to qualify it by saying there's conditions, or we run the risk of being judged as making a mistake. For example, when people said that God was going to raise up Trump and he was going to win in a landslide, some prophets did say that. How could you say that that was conditional? I mean, Trump's character was always the same.

I've never seen so much fasting and praying in my life in the body of Christ. I mean, I don't know how the conditions weren't met for a Trump landslide, if that's what you prophesied. So to me, it's a way of getting out of facing the fact you made a mistake. And unfortunately, after COVID and the mistake, I was on a panel with probably 20 prophetic people, and all of them thought that COVID was going to be lifted around Passover.

I was the only one who didn't think that was going to happen. I haven't heard one person apologize for making a mistake. So I think we have to be very careful that we don't try to make excuses based on the conditionality of prophetic words. Some are clearly conditional, others are not as clearly conditional. And we have to take each one in its context. Appreciate that. Thanks, Joe. And thanks, Joseph, for the question. So we understand that there's conditionality on a certain level built into everything. You know, if we do the opposite of what God wants us to do, we can't expect to get the intended results. But if, again, why even prophesy anything if it's conditional on all kinds of circumstances that we don't even know about? You know, if I say, the Lord showed me it's going to be 90 degrees in Alaska tomorrow, and then it's 30 below zero.

And I said, well, that was only if there was 24 hours of continual fasting for the moment I said... Well, I didn't say that. I didn't build that in. What's the use of predicting anything? And the reason, and I share this with you, the reason that I feel so confident that God's will will ultimately be done, whether it's President Biden or President Trump, and God knows what greater purposes he's going to bring out of all of this, right? He can use anybody and surprise us, and sometimes the worst thing becomes the best thing, and all that. My hope's not in a man or a party anyway. But the reason I feel confident that if there were conditions that have been met, because I've never seen this much prayer for an election in my life either to this moment. And I'm hearing from people literally around the world who have been fasting and praying for the outcome of the elections and massive prayer gatherings and everything else, you name it. So one prophetic leader said to me, Trump will be re-elected if the church has prayed. Well, the church has prayed. So that's why I don't think we can fall back on, well, the conditions weren't met or you didn't believe hard enough. And look, I guess the bottom line for me, if you want to have Old Testament prophetic authority, then you have to take Old Testament prophetic accountability.

You know what I'm saying? If you want your words to be held to on that level, then if you miss it, you get stoned to death. Well, that's not New Testament prophetic ministry. Having said that, do you see, we've got a minute, do you see how God could redeem this whole difficult situation for his great purposes in the days ahead?

Sure. I mean, it could be a learning experience if the prophets made a mistake, prophetic housecleaning, so to speak, in terms of new levels of accountability. And if Trump doesn't get re-elected, I think there are a number of reasons why, and I'll be releasing that next week. But one of it is, I do believe that too many people look to Trump as their savior, provider, and guider.

Yes, sir. He's almost like a pseudo-messiah, even, you know, people who are first conservative, secondarily Christians. Well, I'm first a Christian, secondarily conservative, and secondarily a U.S. citizen. And I don't wrap the gospel with the American flag, and people are too tied to the USA and the destiny of the USA, as opposed to understanding a proper ecclesiology, eschatology, and the purpose of Jesus is coming. So I think God will wake people up with this pseudo-messiah thing. It also will discredit Q. Annan greatly with their false cultures decoded.

In fact, Joe, a colleague of mine has just written what is going to be the book on Q. Annan. All right, Joe, we've got to continue the conversation. I love you and appreciate you. Thank you for your wisdom. Friends, let's sift this through, and let's be wise. God bless you, my brother. Thank you so much.