BREAKING: ACLJ SUES VIRGINIA COUNTY OVER CHURCH DISCRIMINATION

Breaking news.

The ACLJ sues at Virginia County over church discrimination. The pastor joins us to discuss. Keeping you informed and engaged. Now more than ever, this is Sekulow. We want to hear from you.

Share and post your comments or call 1-800-684-3110. And now your host, Jordan Sekulow. Hey, welcome to Sekulow.

A lot to talk about today. We mentioned this case last week, but we are suing today, filing the lawsuit in the Eastern District of Virginia against Prince William County on behalf of a live church. This is the church that was told if you want to utilize your property at all, especially during the pandemic, so they had bought a property they hadn't yet built on the property, but to utilize the property for outdoor services, gatherings, because the school that they were meeting in also had closed down. So they weren't having outside groups in.

They weren't having students in. So they were just looking for a place to gather, and they were told by the county, well, you can gather if you get a liquor license. That's the only way, is that you'll have to, again, pay a tax, pay a licensing fee, which again, the county knows a church is not subject to any taxes.

It doesn't pay taxes. We've seen this in Northern Virginia. Often they have a hostility. It's a very expensive, it's a very well-to-do county. In Northern Virginia, right outside D.C., the property is expensive, and the city would much rather, if they had their choosing, have on these properties tax revenue, whether it was a personal home or a commercial business where they could get revenue from. So they've got this hostility towards churches, not seeing what the churches provide to a community, why they get that tax benefit.

And in this particular case, we talked about this the other day, but I think it's worth reiterating, the church was put in a very awkward situation. They were told basically if you get a liquor license, you can operate. Now, you've got all these other activities going on there, on this area of Prince William County, you know, venues, distilleries, wine orchards where they have events. So the church function of events and things like that, the county, you know, so we're not a problem with that, but to qualify as the same as any of these other enterprises, you have to obtain an ABC license, which is the liquor license for the state of Virginia. That's how Virginia regulates the sale of alcoholic beverages. The problem with that, of course, is it violates the church's conscience, but it also treats the church in a uniquely different way, and that, Professor Hutchinson, the Constitution does not allow. Absolutely. So in this particular case, the Alive Church is suggesting that there is a violation of their First Amendment rights, substantively and as applied by the county. And I think they are precisely on point here. I think it is clear beyond question that if you look at the documentation supplied by the county, if you look at the letter that they sent, they said you can indeed operate, but you simply cannot operate as a church.

That, in my judgment, violates the United States Constitution. The pastor will be joining us the next segment of the broadcast, Alan Perdue. If you're watching, he'll be joined by Skype, so you'll be able to see the pastor, but of course you'll hear him if you're listening on the radio broadcast as well. So unique to hear from the client and their experience with the county and how they were connected with the ACLJ.

We were talking to our client here. We realized this would be great to have on the broadcast, so that's coming up when we come back. We've also got a former Secretary of State, our Senior Counsel for Global Affairs, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo. He'll be joining a second half hour of the broadcast. We'll be switching gears a little bit, talking about what's going on with the Wuhan lab leak as well as COVID issues at the southern border as we're starting to see those cases again.

The numbers are pretty big when it comes to COVID and people are trying to figure out the fall back to school, so we'll talk about that with former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo. But when we come back, our client in the case, Live Church, Pastor Alan Perdue will be joining us live on the broadcast with us to discuss the case. And I encourage you, go to ACLJ.org. You'll be able to see what we have filed here in the case, the complaint, and what we are seeking for this church.

It is insane what this county has done to the church or proposed that the church do. As always, check out ACLJ.org. If you're watching on Facebook, Periscope, Instagram, YouTube, share this with your friends and family. We'll be right back with our client, Alive Church and their pastor, Alan Perdue. ACLJ would not be able to do any of this without your support.

For that we are grateful. Now there's an opportunity for you to help in a unique way. For a limited time, you can participate in the ACLJ's matching challenge. For every dollar you donate, it will be matched. A $10 gift becomes $20.

A $50 gift becomes $100. This is a critical time for the ACLJ. The work we do simply would not occur without your generous support.

Take part in our matching challenge today. You can make a difference in the work we do, protecting the constitutional and religious freedoms that are most important to you and your family. Give a gift today online at ACLJ.org. Only when a society can agree that the most vulnerable and voiceless deserve to be protected is there any hope for that culture to survive. And that's exactly what you are saying when you stand with the American Center for Law and Justice to defend the right to life. We've created a free, powerful publication offering a panoramic view of the ACLJ's battle for the unborn.

It's called Mission Life. It will show you how you are personally impacting the pro-life battle through your support. And the publication includes a look at all major ACLJ pro-life cases. How we're fighting for the rights of pro-life activists. The ramifications of Roe v. Wade 40 years later. Play on parenthood's role in the abortion industry. And what Obamacare means to the pro-life movement. Discover the many ways your membership with the ACLJ is empowering the right to life.

Request your free copy of Mission Life today online at ACLJ.org. This is unique because oftentimes we will bring cases where the clients will come on after the case and we'll discuss it if it's been resolved. But in this case we wanted to bring the client on when we filed the lawsuit which we are filing today in the Eastern District of Virginia. That's in federal court. The pastor, Allen Perdue, the church, a live church.

Again, this is in Prince William County, Virginia. We've talked about some of their story before but there is more to it. That's why we wanted to have Pastor Allen join us today. Pastor, thanks for being with us. We appreciate it and we appreciate you taking time to be with us but also appreciate the stand your church is taking. We've talked about this case a couple of times but it bears repeating here that you were trying to serve the community. The history of this is fascinating.

Talk a little bit about what led the church to this property to begin with. Absolutely, Jay. If I could, I just want to quickly say thank you to Mr. Ben Sisney.

How our paths crossed was a God thing. Jay, to you and the ACLJ. Since the beginning of my ministry, you have been with us. You gave us the roadmap for how to get into schools, giving students the Bill of Rights to do Bible clubs in their local schools. Jay, thank you and the ACLJ for all you do.

Thank you for taking on this important case. Jay, it really began because we are very active in our community. I'm very active in our business community and the business associations of our area who meet just in general for meetings and getting together in wineries. We have these business meetings there. Our board and our leaders here said, man, you go to these wineries and they have these really nice buildings but they're parking on gravel or they're parking on the grass. We simply went to the zoning administrator and said, why can't we do that? You've removed all the red tape for them but for churches, you've put up and placed this huge amount of red tape, this special use permit, by the way, which we have. We said, can we just build a venue like that? When I asked the question, she looked right in my eye and said, go get your ABC license. It was like, wow, we're a church.

Yeah, so for people to understand, and first of all, I didn't mean to cut you off earlier. I appreciate what you were saying but I think the Ben Cissney story is also interesting on how this is, folks, this is how it works. This is how God does these things.

This is how the ACLJ works. Ben, if my understanding is correct, was attending? You met at a... Yeah, Ben.

He and his family just moved to the area and they showed up to find a church and they showed up to a live church and told me that he worked for the ACLJ. Now, let me ask you a question on this. You mentioned, so for people to understand, the church had the right to meet constitutionally and statutorily under the same terms and conditions as anybody else. You cannot put the church in a situation where they are being treated unequally. That violates the constitution. You did obtain a special use permit so you were permitted to proceed.

Explain that. So, we purchased the property with a special use permit that we have spent literally over $100,000 to do engineering and do everything they've asked of us to do. We have permission to build the church campus under that special use permit. But what we were seeking to do, because of the COVID shutdown, because we were displaced from our Prince William County school partner, whom we love, whom we appreciate, and we appreciate their partnership, we as a church were displaced. And when the governor allowed with certain guidelines to reopen again in May for those ready to rejoin worshiping in public, we said to ourselves, man, could we just build one of these farm-like structures that wineries and breweries are building because it's completely void of the red tape.

There's no red tape for them. And so, we just wanted the same privilege. Could we build a venue and worship there, serve the community from there, and do so without having to be displaced and without having to pay rent or pay someone else's mortgage? And so, we were following the path for the special use permit, but we really felt like we were not being allowed access to cut through the red tape for an earlier structure to go ahead and get on our property. It's interesting, Pastor, as we're talking about Pastor Alan Perdue, this is the church we represent, a live church, and the new laws that we're filing today on behalf of the church versus Prince William County, it seems like we see this happen time and time again in Northern Virginia. It's expensive property. They want the revenue. They want tax revenue. And they kind of don't see the benefit of the churches and what they provide to the community and to civil society and to just, as you were talking about, being out in the business community, the outreach that you do, all these different things. And it's not so much, it's not the school administrators. They were shut down. I understand that.

They didn't have anything to decide there. But these county attorneys to come back to you and the planning boards to say, you want to build something like that structure? Go get a liquor license.

It's finding any way possible to get tax, it's like a tax, revenue from you even though you should be completely tax-exempt. And I think there was a time you even thought about, okay, maybe we have to do this because we need to operate for our community. Yeah, Jordan, we said, I mean, we're partners in our community, in our county here, and we appreciate the work that they've tried to do to help us. And we did say to ourselves, could we grow apple trees and just make apple cider that's non-alcoholic, which still happened to be governed by the ABC license. However, the optic of that really did not align with our deep core values and no church should be asked to get a liquor license.

It's not a good optic for any church. And so we did for a moment consider it. And then in talking to our district and our leadership, we said, no, we really don't think we should have to do that.

And I think Jordan, it's important to note that Alive Church and our board and our district gave us some grant money to help. We spent over $20,000 locally to keep it here in the family, working with a very good local land use attorney and the county attorney. And we spent the money to convince them of the Rupila issue and what we felt was a good Rupila argument. And the response that our attorneys got from the county attorney was, notwithstanding whether or not this long 13-page letter you wrote with Rupila and state statute in it, notwithstanding whether or not you're correct or we're correct, we're not going to change our mind or rewrite anything to your benefit unless compelled to do so by a higher court. And so we're here because it was the only recourse the county gave us. The statute that you're referring to, the Religious Land Use Protection Act, was designed to prevent exactly this situation.

That's the irony of this. We've alleged in the complaint that the church meets all the requirements and has all the necessary approvals to be treated by the county as a bona fide agricultural use, similar to the farm wineries or breweries to conduct agritourism, as they call it, meets all the requirements, but for its sincerely held religious beliefs, which meant they did not want to obtain a liquor license, Harry. That's exactly what the Religious Land Use Protection Act is all about.

Absolutely. So this case is directly on point. I'm very happy that we have filed this lawsuit today in order to vindicate the rights of the alive church within the meaning of the United States Constitution. On the other hand, Prince William County has engaged in outrageous decision making. In essence, the alive church, which has a special use permit, is being prevented from using the property that it owns within the meaning of the law.

Why? Because the county says you need to get a liquor license. So in essence, the church is being forced to confront a Hobbesian choice. Either we become basically an alcohol establishment or we can operate as a church but with an alcohol license or we have to shut down. This is outrageous. It is so absurd when you think, Wes, really quick, and Pastor, we're going to keep you for the next segment of the broadcast. Wes, you're of course not only retired colonel from the United States Army, but you're also a pastor or chaplain. Putting the church in this situation, it's really absurd. It is absolutely insane. And if you didn't really realize it was actually happening, you would think someone made this up.

And Alan, it's so good to have you on the show today. I'm not a member of your denomination, but I did go to Trevecca Nazarene University for my bachelor's degree, so we probably know some of the same people. My understanding though is that you actually rented a winery brewery for your services for a while when the school closed down. And I think it's true that if a winery or brewery, they can rent to a church and the church can actually worship there so they can do the activity that's not allowed on your own property if you'll rent it from a winery. Is that true? Yeah, it's just so ironic.

That's absolutely correct. They can do weddings, which 90% of the time are religious events. We as a church have utilized agricultural and winery-type structures in the pandemic to continue functioning in those early months. And for them to be able to operate and worship and do what they do and host churches who worship, and that we could not do that on a regular, every-week basis on our own property, it's just mind-blowing. It really is. Pastor, we've only got 40 seconds left, so stay with us.

Join us for the next segment. Fascinating case. That lawsuit is about to be filed really any minute now.

That's right. It'll be filed in the Eastern District of Virginia. That's in federal court.

Pastor Alan Perdue joining us on the broadcast today. Support the work of the ACLJ, ACLJ.org. And I encourage you, you'll be able to see this too on our website later today. We'll have this up so you can see what we've filed in Prince William County in the Eastern District of Virginia. Also, if you've got questions, comments that you want to get on Facebook, YouTube, Periscope, we have our team watching that, monitoring that.

We can get some of those in as well. We'll be right back on Secular. This is a publication offering a panoramic view of the ACLJ's battle for the unborn. It's called Mission Life. It will show you how you are personally impacting the pro-life battle through your support. The publication includes a look at all major ACLJ pro-life cases, how we're fighting for the rights of pro-life activists, the ramifications of Roe v. Wade 40 years later, play on parenthood's role in the abortion industry and what Obamacare means to the pro-life movement. Discover the many ways your membership with the ACLJ is empowering the right to life. Request your free copy of Mission Life today online at ACLJ.org slash gift. At the American Center for Law and Justice, we're engaged in critical issues at home and abroad, whether it's defending religious freedom, protecting those who are persecuted for their faith, uncovering corruption in the Washington bureaucracy and fighting to protect life in the courts and in Congress. The ACLJ would not be able to do any of this without your support.

For that, we are grateful. Now there's an opportunity for you to help in a unique way. For a limited time, you can participate in the ACLJ's matching challenge. For every dollar you donate, it will be matched. A $10 gift becomes $20.

A $50 gift becomes $100. This is a critical time for the ACLJ. The work we do simply would not occur without your generous support. Take part in our matching challenge today. You can make a difference in the work we do, protecting the constitutional and religious freedoms that are most important to you and your family. Give a gift today online at ACLJ.org.

Welcome back to Second Hill. We continue to be joined by our client in this case with a live church in Northern Virginia, Pastor Alan Perdue. It's interesting, Nancy on Facebook wrote in the county, was probably betting on it costing the church too much money to fight.

They didn't count on the ACLJ stepping in. And what I think is important here is remember the last thing the county said to the pastors, we were first talking, was we're not doing anything different until the court tells us we have to. So pastor, you said you spent, the church spent with local lawyers trying to get it resolved about $25,000 or $30,000. As Nancy's comment from Facebook suggests, as the expectation was, they figured you weren't going to have the resources to move this forward into court.

Is that what your sense is? Absolutely. We had actually, we did contract with someone, our denominational headquarters and general counsel had sent us to someone with 24 years of Rupal experience in the courts. They're still on our team working with Mr. Ben Cissney. But literally, Jay, just within a week and a half of signing that agreement with that lawyer, we met Ben. And then Ben and I went to lunch not too long after that. In less than just a few weeks after meeting Mr. Ben Cissney, ACLJ so amazingly said yes to join our team and join with us and take this on.

We couldn't be doing this without you. Yeah, so the fact of the matter is this. The issue is very, very significant, pastor. Yours is a case, you know, you're looking at it as a case affecting your church. But any time that government tries to treat the church distinctly or differently is something that we have been fighting, and you know this because you've been following the ACLJ, it sounds like, for a long time. I mean, one of the first cases I had which allowed your church to utilize the school facilities was the Lamb's Chapel case. And in Lamb's Chapel, in that particular case, the church was denied the right to use a school facility to show a film series by Focus on the Family. Every other conceivable group was allowed access to this school, St. Mauritius Union Free School District.

And except for Focus, they targeted the religious group. And what's happened here, it seems like, is the county's treating you, first they said, well, it almost sounds like a wink and a nod. I know it wasn't, but like, well, if you were a winery, we'd let you do it. So you're going to operate like one, but you still have to get the liquor license. And the question is so ironic here is, why did they care whether the church has a liquor license when you're not selling alcohol?

Absolutely. I mean, for us, it was just a simple matter of if, you know, I said to a group of business people, imagine there's a business next to you building something and the county cuts all the red tape for them. And you go and ask to do the same thing with a few nuances.

And they say, no, here's this stack of red tape you've got to go through. To us, we just couldn't believe it. And I want to say, Jay, I do believe that the initial feeling of it was that they wanted to help us. And of course, we were trying to work with, keep a good relationship because we care about the county, we care about our community. We wanted to keep that good relationship because we do have a much larger campus to build in the future, Lord willing. So we were working with them. We felt like their attitude was that we want to work with you. But then all of a sudden, just the red tape started coming again.

Instead of getting the letter in two months as we should have, it took almost four months and on and on. And so, yeah, for us, we're thankful to God for ACLJ coming with us and coming beside us on this. Pastor, we're glad to be of assistance. See, that's what we do at the ACLJ. And as we tell people on every broadcast, whether it's the Supreme Court of the United States, the International Criminal Court in The Hague, dealing with complex issues on Capitol Hill, or representing a church in Northern Virginia.

That's what the American Center for Law and Justice does. And our donors allow us, our supporters allow us to do that for you at no cost, which we're thrilled to do. Pastor, thanks for being with us. We look forward to a successful resolution.

We'll have you back on. Thank you so much. Thank you, everybody. And then again, I think this showed right away, if you're ever in this situation, we always have an ACLJ.org right at the top of the homepage.

Get Legal Help. It's at the top of the page. It's a very quick way for you to put in the information if you need assistance or if you're the pastor of a church that needs assistance. So if you believe you're in a similar situation where your church is being mistreated, your organization being mistreated by a government agency or official that you're trying to deal with in good faith, like this church was. They were trying to resolve this at the local level, at the community level, but they couldn't. And the county dared them, ultimately dared them to file a lawsuit. Well, they're, you know, dare accepted lawsuit being filed.

And that is key. Most people, understandably, they get to these points with these counties where they got to operate in and deal with and live with. And they say, you know, sue us or goodbye. And, you know, you've already spent money with local attorneys.

A federal lawsuit is very expensive. You don't, you know, you may not know where this outcome will be. That's why we exist. So that when a county says to a church, sue us, we can say, all right, let's sue you. So what's also interesting here, Thanh, is that this was a combination of, if you look at what happened here, so our Ben Cisney happens to go to the church.

You know, these are God moments. He goes to the church. The church has a legal issue. We're going to court, but we're also relying on legislation we worked on.

I'm trying to think 20 years ago almost, maybe more. The Religious Land Use. It used to be called the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act, which was to protect religious liberty on land use and also folks that were in prison. So the statutory basis is something we worked on, which allows us to go to court here.

There's almost always an overlay here, isn't there, Jay? I mean, there's the constitutional provisions. There's the statutory protections. There's the regulations that are put in place by the federal government and the local governments. And then there's the litigation that has to take place.

And, you know, Jay, as you were having that conversation with Pastor Perdue, I so appreciate the spirit that he has with this. But let me tell you, I am always worried about the potential for future regulation, especially when you're talking about something like a liquor license. I mean, how often, Jay, do localities do things like, say, schools and decorators and even churches can't be placed, or liquor stores can't be placed in close proximity to those? So what happens, Jay, if Prince William County or the state of Virginia says that anybody that has an ABC license can't operate near one of these churches?

What would the church do in that circumstance? So you've got to look at all layers of that, and we're uniquely situated to do it. You're absolutely right. In fact, one of the folks that helps on our securities matters, CLJ, one of the sheriffs, said to me when we were going out, she was listening to the broadcast, she said, you know, a lot of counties, you have to say a certain amount of feet away if you've got alcoholic beverages being an establishment.

Another business has to say a certain amount of feet away. Here, all the church wanted to be was treated equally, and they were denied that right. And because they were denied that right, the county was figuring, just as I am sure that, as Nancy Rogen from Facebook said, they were not counting on the American Center for Law and Justice to be able to stand with this church and to stand with the congregation and fight for this. This is what we do with the ACLJ. Like I said, it could be the Supreme Court, it could be the International Criminal Court in The Hague. It could be complicated international matters involving foreign policy, or it could be a local church in Northern Virginia that needs help.

Yeah, that's right. And this is why you support the work of the ACLJ, all of you. You may not be in this situation right now, but you understand that we will be there for those churches, for those people who do need our help, and it doesn't cost them anything because you support the work of the ACLJ.

You can do that at ACLJ.org. But let me encourage you again, just to kind of the breadth and the scope of the ACLJ, Ben Sisti walking into a church with his family, coming out representing a client, at the same time coming up in our second half hour, our Senior Counsel for Global Affairs, former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo joining us. All work that we do under the ACLJ, all work we do together at the ACLJ, and all just as important.

Like Ben was talking about, the idea that the single church represents lots of churches to make sure they're not being mistreated. We'll be right back on Sekulow. Second half hour coming up, we're going to get into the crisis at the border, as well as the Wuhan lab report from the House Foreign Affairs Committee. At the American Center for Law and Justice, we're engaged in critical issues at home and abroad. For a limited time, you can participate in the ACLJ's Matching Challenge. For every dollar you donate, it will be matched. A $10 gift becomes $20.

A $50 gift becomes $100. You can make a difference in the work we do, protecting the constitutional and religious freedoms that are most important to you and your family. Give a gift today online at ACLJ.org. Keeping you informed and engaged, now more than ever, this is Sekulow. And now your host, Jordan Sekulow. Welcome back to Sekulow. We are taking your calls as well as comments on Facebook, Periscope, YouTube, Instagram as well.

Wherever you watch the show, of course, if you're listening, you can call us at 1-800-684-3110. We'll be joined in the next segment with former Secretary of State, our Senior Counsel for Global Affairs, Mike Pompeo. But I do want to update quickly, because the brief we filed in Georgia yesterday, I'll be on One American News later on this afternoon, discussing this. We filed the brief yesterday, 57 members of Congress, including Republican leadership, the entire Republican delegation from the House of Representatives in Georgia.

It's significant. It's already made national news, because these members of Congress are saying this is not the federal government's job to step in. Georgia, this is not correct, with the Department of Justice alleging that this is a violation of the Voting Rights Act and a racist law. And these members of Congress, from coast to coast, standing with us at the ACLJ, signing on to that brief as we represent them. Well, I'm glad you mentioned the coast to coast, Jordan, because just like the church case we're discussing, this is going to have ramifications in states all across the country. I mean, Article 1, Section 4 of the Constitution very clearly gives states the authority to set the time, place, and manner of federal elections.

That's at stake in this case, Jordan. The Biden administration has challenged Georgia's right to pass this law, which sets the time, place, and manner of their elections. And by the way, Jordan, this is just sort of anecdotally, it's not required in order for us to defend Georgia's right to do this, but their law, it's right in the mainstream. It's not nearly as restrictive as plenty of blue states out there, but either way, Jordan, you can agree with the law, you can disagree with the law, but either way, the Constitution gives Georgia the right to set their parameters.

That's what they've done. The Biden administration has stewed them. We're now representing 57 members of Congress in this brief. You rightly said Rick Allen from the state of Georgia leading, as well as all House Georgia Republicans on the brief.

Also, Jordan of note, Whip Steve Scalise is on the brief, as is Conference Chair Elise Stefanik. So a very good showing, and members across the country standing with the state of Georgia. You know, it's very important, too, because the issue at play here in the Georgia case is not only the constitutional provision of what the state of Georgia has the right to do, which they clearly do under the Constitution, but the fact is that this has been so politicized that the Department of Justice has come in, Harry, to say that the state can't do what the Constitution says they are doing, because in their view it's discriminatory, and as you pointed out on yesterday's broadcast, it is much more giving than, say, Delaware.

Absolutely. So essentially what the Justice Department is saying is that we get to decide what is racist. We get to decide what violates the Voting Rights Act. Clearly, and unmistakably, their analysis is inconsistent and it is highly discriminatory, paradoxically enough, with respect to red states. So essentially they're saying a red state can offer greater voting access to its citizens than a blue state, but then we are going to charge the red state with discrimination on the basis of race.

This is turning the world upside down. So in the last two days we filed a complex case, a brief, in Georgia in the district court dealing with elections. The next day the ACLJ goes to federal court on behalf of a local church who's being discriminated against. That shows you the scope and nature of what the practice of the ACLJ is and what it's all about. So when you stand with us, you let us do the complicated case in Georgia involving election law and representing that church in Northern Virginia. Support the work of the American Center for Law and Justice. Alright folks, ACLJ.org, that's ACLJ.org. When we come back, former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo is part of the ACLJ team as he serves as Senior Counsel for Global Affairs. We're going to get to what's happened in our border, but also this new report out of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, very similar to the report out of the State Department where Secretary Pompeo served as the head of the State Department as Secretary of State.

Pointing the finger not at this theory of some kind of wet market where the virus originated, but that it was a lab-created virus. So we're going to be talking about that as well when we come back on Secular. I'm covering corruption in the Washington bureaucracy and fighting to protect life in the courts and in Congress. The ACLJ would not be able to do any of this without your support.

For that, we are grateful. Now there's an opportunity for you to help in a unique way. For a limited time, you can participate in the ACLJ's Matching Challenge. For every dollar you donate, it will be matched. A $10 gift becomes $20.

A $50 gift becomes $100. This is a critical time for the ACLJ. The work we do simply would not occur without your generous support.

Take part in our Matching Challenge today. You can make a difference in the work we do, protecting the constitutional and religious freedoms that are most important to you and your family. Give a gift today online at ACLJ.org. Only when a society can agree that the most vulnerable and voiceless deserve to be protected is there any hope for that culture to survive. And that's exactly what you are saying when you stand with the American Center for Law and Justice to defend the right to life. We've created a free, powerful publication offering a panoramic view of the ACLJ's battle for the unborn.

It's called Mission Life. It will show you how you are personally impacting the pro-life battle through your support. And the publication includes a look at all major ACLJ pro-life cases. How we're fighting for the rights of pro-life activists. The ramifications of Roe v. Wade 40 years later. Play on parenthood's role in the abortion industry. And what Obamacare means to the pro-life movement. Discover the many ways your membership with the ACLJ is empowering the right to life.

Request your free copy of Mission Life today online at ACLJ.org slash gift. Welcome back to Sec Hill. We're joined now by former Secretary of State and our Senior Counsel for Global Affairs, Secretary Mike Pompeo. Secretary Pompeo, I want to get right to it. So we saw the Biden administration.

They have actually renewed taking some advice that you've been talking about. A lot of people have been talking about this idea of, hey, if you put back in place the former administration's rules and regulations as it came to the border, things would be better. You've created this, they've allowed this crisis to continue, but they have started to rely on Title 42 of the U.S. code, which allows the federal government to expel migrants due to COVID concerns. At the same time, we know that there was a record high, Secretary Pompeo, of nearly 190,000 people that they had encounters with.

That's what they know that they've had encounters with. Do you think that the administration will stick to their guns here, actually implement the Title 42 power that they have, or is it too little, too late? Well, Jordan, America's health and security both depend on them actually executing what they've now said they're going to do.

Look, I always want to give credit where it's due. If they've now gotten it right and said that they're going to reinstate that part of the policy that our administration had, I'm happy about that. It's all about implementation because folks will see very quickly as they're coming up, they will call their friends and they'll say, yeah, they actually said it, but they're not enforcing it and that the onslaught will continue. This matters an awful lot. We can't have people who are coming in who have COVID while we're setting up a different set of rules and constructs here inside the United States for Americans.

It makes no sense. My last thought there, Jordan, is we talk about them going back to the policies we had. This is just a fraction of the work that we had done. They need to go back to all of the policies that we had in place, all the ones that had turned the spigot off.

You talked about these record numbers. This wouldn't have happened if they would have just stayed the course, treated people humanely, stopped this terrible human crisis of these people crossing this desert, especially in the peak heat of the summertime, remained in Mexico, a good policy on asylum, a set of rules about people who are coming here who may well be contagious, all of those form an umbrella that had truly gotten control of our southern border for an awfully long time. They ripped the Band-Aid off and the United States is now suffering for that. I want to follow up on that, Mike, because one of the things I'm concerned about, you look at 42 USC Section 265, so this is the federal code, folks, that is the provision that the Biden administration is now utilizing, which was put in place by the previous administration, which, of course, Mike Pompeo served as Secretary of State as well as a director of the CIA. And the section is entitled Suspension of Entries and Imports from Designated Places to Prevent the Spread of Communicable Diseases.

Obviously, we're talking about COVID there. Now, the ACLU has already said that they are going to bring litigation, file a lawsuit as soon as the policy is implemented. And then my concern is, as you said about implementation, my concern is about the defense of that policy because that will now be defended by the Department of Justice, who I suspect the sympathies lie with the ACLU.

Jay, it's a real risk. Of course, there'll be litigation. There was litigation about nearly every immigration policy that we set forth early on. We had district courts grant injunctions, we had the Ninth Circuit do some things that were frankly inconsistent with the Constitution. But nonetheless, those were things that held up our policy. I am confident those lawsuits will be filed if they already haven't been in very short order. And it will take a DOJ that is prepared to go actually defend what is absolute common sense. Can people with communicable diseases shouldn't be admitted to the United States?

Who can disagree with this? You're right, it is common sense. It's been also immigration policy since my grandfather came over to the United States in 1914. They checked for the same things. I mean, this is not some new policy in one sense.

I will tell you this, though. The ACLU said they're going to file suit. We know they will. We've already authorized our team at the American Center for Law and Justice, the team that you're a part of, the ACLJ, to enter a brief in support of the enforcement of Title 42 because I want to be able to bolster whatever the Department of Justice puts in place here. That makes great sense, and it'll be really important. And your voice will be heard, and the judge or series of judges who hear those cases will need that voice.

If the DOJ doesn't make all the right arguments, doesn't defend this as both constitutional, consistent with U.S. law, and common sense, I'm counting on others, and the ACLJ will be a big part of this to make sure that those voices are heard and the arguments made. You know, Secretary Pompeo, you referenced this before. We're still dealing with this in our own country. The world is still dealing with this. The House Foreign Affairs Committee, the Republicans in the House Foreign Affairs Committee, they released their report in which they conclude, similar to a report out of the State Department, that the virus leaked from the lab in Wuhan, that that is the leading theory.

It's something you've discussed for a long time that you have said is the leading theory. I think we're all starting to see now, as this is, you know, we're starting to see the second round and the country trying to figure out what to do next, how serious this virus is, and the way it attacks people, how serious it is. But yet, again, the public pressure would be to hold the Chinese Communist Party accountable, but the Democrats on the committee said they wouldn't even be involved in looking into this because they want to wait for an Intel community report out of the Biden administration. I don't mind other reports on this, as long as they're not politically motivated, but I am concerned that the administration, regardless of whatever the conclusions are, won't actually hold the Chinese Communist Party accountable.

Well, Jordan, two thoughts. One, first, it's really sad to see Democrats, duly elected Democrats in the House of Representatives, unwilling to at least opine. If you disagree, make the case for why you disagree, but of course they don't disagree. It's now, it's now commonly understood that the most likely place that this virus came from was this laboratory, the Wuhan Institute of Virology, and I think the Democrats know that, and so they're playing political games, trying to satisfy someone. I couldn't tell you who, maybe it's the Chinese Communist Party itself. Second, with respect to accountability, this is an even more important question, although the question of origin matters a lot more important. Whether it came from the lab or somebody who ate a bat, the Chinese Communist Party knew they had a contagious virus, they knew the virus was pretty lethal, and they sent people, thousands and thousands of people all across the world knowingly, recklessly, to infect people and kill people all across the world. Accountability has to happen no matter where that virus came from. We know it came from Wuhan, and I pray that this administration will be serious about this. If you'd killed several million people around the world through any other mechanism, I promise you there would be accountability and nations would respond. The whole world needs to unite and make the Chinese Communist Party pay the price for the damage they've done across the world. Mike, if you were President of the United States, how would you hold them accountable?

I'd start with lots of, there's lots of things you could start with. You could start with sanctioning every decision maker. They're wise, like to shop in America, we should stop that. Their kids want to study in America, we should stop that. We shouldn't attend an Olympics where they've not only posted this virus, but now conducting genocide.

There are things we can do that are connected to more kinetic activity as well that would send a message that says, this is not going to be free for you. And finally, there are Chinese assets all around the world that I am confident that there are legal theories we can get to them. And we should go recover at least some of the hundreds of billions of dollars in economic wealth destruction that took place all across the world. You know, you mentioned the human rights abuses of China, which are unfortunately legendary. We're still dealing with a case involving a pastor who is a Chinese citizen, but American was here, American green card, wife and family.

The kids are all Americans. He's been detained now for three years, Pastor John Saul. And the tragedy of this case is with China is their non-response, even when we go to the UN, to the Committee on Unlawful Detentions and get rulings that say China should release Pastor Saul. And of course, we don't have the access that we had when you were the Secretary of State in the previous administration, but you would think, I would hope, that the administration would still be concerned about the human rights abuses going on in China because they are outrageous. The religious freedom, lack of religious freedom there is legendary. Well, Jay, they started off on the right foot with Secretary Blinken confirming the genocide that's taking place in China and its ongoing nature early on in the administration, but they've not taken the action necessary to defend that, to back that up. Your point about detention, wrongful detention of Americans, they're also holding Canadians, they're holding others.

This is a rogue regime that is not a rights-respecting regime. And I regret that the Biden administration hasn't placed religious freedom at the same priority that we did in the Trump administration, and instead has elevated climate change to their number one priority when they have conversations with the Chinese Communist Party. It's incredible to me, but I just want to say a huge thank you for your service and your continued service and working with us here at the ACLJ. And Mike, your insights are great, but your advice is strategic.

And folks, those of you that are members of the ACLJ, we have the former Secretary of State of the United States of America as a senior counsel to the ACLJ because of you, and we really appreciate that. So from all of us, Mike, also thank you for your insights on the program, but also your insight and advice on so many of these issues. Thank you, Jay. Thank you, Jordan. So long.

Thank you, Secretary Pompeo. You know, this is key because we just had on the first half hour, a local pastor ends up meeting one of our attorneys, Ben Sisi, who is in our D.C. office out of Northern Virginia, you know, takes his family. They're looking for a new church home. They just moved. And the pastor says, well, let me tell you what's really going on with our situation.

And at the local level, we're fighting in federal court on behalf of a live church in Prince William County. Globally, we have the former Secretary of State on our team, someone who has dealt with all of these officials, as most recently as anyone in the country in the United States that you could have on your team, has dealt face to face with the good guys, the bad guys and the guys who are somewhere in between with all the countries. He knows the actors.

He understands. See, he understands their mindset. What would get at the Chinese? What would really upset them? Their wife's shopping sprees, their kids' education. That's and of course, money, their bank accounts.

That's where to get them. That's the former secretary of state telling you how to handle these problems. Only when a society can agree that the most vulnerable and voiceless deserve to be protected is there any hope for that culture to survive. And that's exactly what you are saying when you stand with the American Center for Law and Justice to defend the right to life. We've created a free, powerful publication offering a panoramic view of the ACLJ's battle for the unborn.

It's called Mission Life. It will show you how you are personally impacting the pro-life battle through your support. And the publication includes a look at all major ACLJ pro-life cases, how we're fighting for the rights of pro-life activists, the ramifications of Roe v. Wade 40 years later, play on parenthood's role in the abortion industry, and what Obamacare means to the pro-life movement. Discover the many ways your membership with the ACLJ is empowering the right to life. Request your free copy of Mission Life today online at ACLJ.org slash gift. At the American Center for Law and Justice, we're engaged in critical issues at home and abroad. Whether it's defending religious freedom, protecting those who are persecuted for their faith, uncovering corruption in the Washington bureaucracy, and fighting to protect life in the courts and in Congress, the ACLJ would not be able to do any of this without your support.

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Give a gift today online at ACLJ.org. Please join us live from a live church in Northern Virginia where we are filing a federal lawsuit today against Prince William County where that church is operating. Again, they were told by the county, if you want to use your property, build an outside structure like you'd see at a lot of these wineries, breweries, and other parks that you have, barn structures, looking structures. Yeah, you can do that if you get a liquor license. That's your only option to utilize your property right now.

Remember, this is during COVID. They were utilizing a school, but the school shut down. The school didn't have any choice. It wasn't the school trying to shut out the church.

They weren't open at all for any kind of meetings, including school itself. So then they say, how can we utilize? We've got this piece of property we can utilize.

Why not do like the wineries do? They've got music. They've got a little stage set up.

They have a little bar set up. And the county said, yeah, you can do that if you get an ABC license from us. And of course, the church after thinking about that for a second said, well, that's not really proper for a church to obtain a liquor license. That's what that is in Virginia. So they told the church, get a liquor license or sue us because unless a court tells us otherwise, we're not changing our mind.

Well, today the ACLJ representing the church is suing Prince William County. Then we were joined by former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo. And I think, again, when we talk about who to hold accountable for this virus, this idea that you just have to throw your hands up in the air, that you can't hold the Chinese accountable.

I want to go to Harry and Wes with this too. I think Secretary Pompeo made a good case of how you actually can hold them accountable and actually inflict some punishment on their leadership. I think you're precisely correct. I think Secretary Pompeo is precisely correct. But I think what is lacking within the Biden administration is the will. And one of the other points I would make is that the Biden administration refuses to put America and American interests first. Because if they did so, they would actually engage in affirmative action, which would be designed to reduce the power and influence of the Chinese government throughout the world, but clearly and unmistakably within the boundaries of the United States. China gets away with so much with impunity because the world lets China get away with these things.

And the COVID thing is at the top of the list right now. But you look at unlawful detentions, you look at the genocide that's going on there, the way they are violating international law by building military bases on man-made islands in the South China Sea and violating the territorial waters of other countries down there. They have to be made to pay a price, Jordan. And the things that Secretary Pompeo brought up are excellent ways to start. Because unless we make the Chinese officials and the Communist Party pay a price, they will continue to flagrantly violate human norms and international law as well as human rights. You know, again, I just think that we always, it can be a situation where you see China and you think, how do you hold that country accountable for anything? I mean, Secretary Pompeo said the Trump administration designated them as committing genocide.

The Biden administration agreed. But yet, how do you actually not just use words but take actions that they will respond to or that will be a punishment for what they have unleashed on the world intentionally or not, the way this virus continues to wreak havoc in our country and in the entire world? It doesn't matter where you are on this issue and the politics of all the other things around the virus, it is wreaking havoc, economic havoc, havoc on our communities, uncertainty about the back to school still when we're getting very close to back to school, and things change day to day.

You can agree or disagree on all those different things, but what we can, I think, agree on as a country is that someone created this likely, I mean, that's what is likely, and that it was unleashed on the world unintentionally through some act of either extreme, what would be criminal negligence in the United States or worse, or intentionally, which would be war, a declaration of war against the world to do something like this. And do not take for a moment this idea that China wouldn't allow this out because it could hurt their own people. It's not how the country operates. They don't value human life the same way we do. They don't value individual rights and freedoms.

That individual right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is not part of their thinking and mindset. I'm not talking about the people in China, ordinary people, I'm talking about the Chinese Communist Party leadership. So, again, we will continue to update you on all of this, the cases out of Northern Virginia, the work we're doing as well, which we are involving the Wuhan lab theory. We filed the FOIAs there. So, there's a lot to talk about, but then I do want to get a quick Washington update too. Where is the infrastructure bill? I mean, there's a potential August recess, a lot of senators wanting to get back home to their states. This is key for the House as well, House members, but is it moving forward like we were told it was moving forward?

There's a lot of distractions every day because of the COVID issues that keep arising. So, where is that huge piece of legislation? Yeah, Jordan, there's a lot of moving parts on the infrastructure bills, I would say.

It's more than just one. I mean, there is a bipartisan infrastructure bill on the floor of the Senate right now. They're literally going through an amendment process. This is the $1.2 trillion bipartisan framework, the deal that was agreed upon between senators from both parties. Jordan, it's a 2,700-page bill that just came out yesterday, so they're still finding things in it that need to be stripped out.

And I think this goes back to a conversation that we've had many times. If this was the whole game, Jordan, I think what would happen, they would get this bill to a place where both parties would more or less agree on it, and it would be passed into law. But currently, Democrats in Washington are really holding it hostage for a larger $3.5 trillion bill that they want to pass through reconciliation. So, when the smaller package comes to a final vote, I think many Republicans are going to view it as a vote on the entire package because Speaker Pelosi has said she is not going to move one without the other.

The way this should have worked, Jordan, this should have been the compromise. And we've said it many times on this broadcast, there was a deal to be had on a bipartisan basis. I think you see essentially what that deal is now in front of you. It costs $1.2 trillion, and it's mostly roads and bridges and waterways, broadband and other infrastructure. But Jordan, if it's tied to another $3.5 trillion of wishlist spending from the left, then I don't think it gets enacted.

And quite frankly, if that's the deal, I don't think it should get enacted. You know, again, I think we're going to follow all that very closely. Our government affairs team is following that closely. And then finally, we filed our brief yesterday. I just want to remind people, because it just shows the breadth of the work of the ACLJ from representing the church, to having a former secretary of state on our team as a senior counsel, to representing 57 members of Congress. And if we want to have integrity in elections, Jordan, we need to maintain state control, control close to the people where if there are problems in the states, people have an ability to right those wrongs. Georgia is trying to do that as we speak, passed a very common sense mainstream law. The Department of Justice under the Biden administration is challenging it.

Jordan, 57 members of Congress coast to coast. Other states that are going to be impacted by the outcome of this case filed this brief with us. Hopefully, we'll get a solid outcome. Very excellent showing on this brief, though.

Yeah, absolutely. I'll be talking about it on One America's News in just about two hours from now. So again, support the work of the ACLJ. All of this that we're talking about is available at ACLJ.org. You can dig in deeper if you want to see the brief, if you want to see what we're filing. It's all there for you at ACLJ.org. You can support our work there as well. We appreciate all of you and we will talk to you tomorrow on Secular.

At the American Center for Law and Justice, we're engaged in critical issues at home and abroad. For a limited time, you can participate in the ACLJ's matching challenge. For every dollar you donate, it will be matched. A $10 gift becomes $20. A $50 gift becomes 100. You can make a difference in the work we do, protecting the constitutional and religious freedoms that are most important to you and your family. Give a gift today online at ACLJ.org.