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Janet - Mefferd - Today - Greg Koukl (Apologetics)

Janet Mefferd / Janet Mefferd
The Truth Network Radio
February 16, 2021 4:30 am

Janet - Mefferd - Today - Greg Koukl (Apologetics)

Janet Mefferd / Janet Mefferd

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February 16, 2021 4:30 am

Many think Christianity is just one among many religions in the world. But aside from Christianity being true, it is also a picture of reality that explains why the world is the way it is. Apologist Greg Koukl, founder of Stand to Reason, will join me to explain why. His book is called, "The Story of Reality: How the World Began, How It Ends, and Everything Important that Happens in Between." That's next time on Tuesday's JANET MEFFERD TODAY.

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This archived broadcast of Janet Mefford today is brought to you by Liberty health share liberty. Healthcare is a nonprofit healthcare sharing ministry that allows you to control and manage your own healthcare and choose any doctor or hospital in the nation. If your freedom loving American looking for contract free healthcare call now 855-585-4237 or go to liberty, health for more information liberty reference to our confidence is in Christ alone, before I got a set of soil is no that is one of the reasons I believe Christianity is a religion.

You could not have guessed, and this goes along with what many of us have thought when atheists or skeptics say God is a crotch that we've invented.

Why would we invent our own sin and need for a Savior, why would we invent how in fact, those things have been revealed to us by God himself. He is the one who has determined reality and from beginning, and reality is what we find in Christianity and my next guest has written a great book about it. I am delighted to welcome back to the show Greg Coco. Greg is founder and president of stand to reason and serves as adjunct professor of Christian apologetics up idling University's book is called the story of reality, how the world began, how it ends and everything important that happens in between and Greg.

My favorite guest.

How are you it's going to get a bad habit I would hear my favorite radio interview. Or, you know that I told you that before and you know this is the very first interview that I may have the story of reality and today is the launch of the book and I've got my favorite radio interviewer. You have your favorite guessed by now, I know what what a country great country is a great life Lord, thank you so much and I am thrilled that you're here, Greg. I'm honored that you here to to tell us about this book I have to say that is a pretty all-encompassing title. You have right there. It sounds like it would be like a 25 volume set with everything you got there. The story of reality. Yes.

Well, it the key word here. In the subtitle is everything important between answer and what I try to focus it on the course are the really deep important eternal issues so that allows me to get most of my comments into (200 pages of the books to recycle what is this all important question right at the outset what is Christianity which seems like a very basic question Christian should be able to answer that, but what you getting at their well. A lot of Christians are going to say when they respond to the question is, will Christianity is a religion or maybe they won't will see if not a religion to relationship or they might say it's a way to live a fulfilling life in those kind of things and I think all those are all true as far as it goes but notice that almost all the time when people talk about their Christianity there talking about it in a certain sense from the inside out. That is about their experience with God. Their relationship with God. Their personal convictions their own faith and Jesus actually saw it. Not first from the inside out, but from the outside in Jesus all the things that he taught in the way he characterized the world as a depiction of the way the world actually is and so in that sense Christianity is, is not just a relationship with God or with Jesus or to not just a religion or it's not. But it's rather a characterization of the world as it is, in itself, and what I'm trying to underscore herein and to deal with is the problem that people have consistently relative icing religion while your truth versus my truth.

But as they say in the book of the story is not really accurate to reality. It's not any kind of truth at all.

So it can never be my truth to your truth. Even though we may believe it can only be our dilution or our mistake or our error, but could never be our truth in that sense, so that the the title Schmidt underscore the notion that as a follower of Christ. I mean to be telling people the way the world really is talking about history, not fantasy, I'm talking about facts, not just leaps of faith. That's what you're really saying there, which I think is so significant is the objectivity of Christianity needs to be stress, not all the time, making it my subjective experience as a Christian, why in the world have we made Christianity overwhelmingly subjective. Chris certainly there's a subjective element to being a Christian but widely emphasized that more, sometimes to the detriment of the objectivity objectivity of Christianity. Why I think part of the Kmart of the movement where I became a Christian back in the 70s and it was a response to what some people called kind of a dead orthodoxy so people are going to church their sit in the pews, but that doesn't have any relationship to their daily life and so to combat that all Christians properly understood that Christianity is a relationship with God. There's a personal element there, but because it was the 60s and then in the 70s an hour into the 21st-century that whole thing. That relativistic or the subject of the stick element. Our feelings are experienced became front and center.

And so this is the way the whole culture thinks so I tell somebody, as I did yesterday that I've written a book about Christianity, and though I told little bit about it, the personal talking to who I do not think was a Christian at all was saying to me why all good fine super as people usually do when you express that your religious person so let's fight for you are not saying wow you got it you got reality, they're just saying you've got your religious trip and other people have their it's good that people have something to hang onto. There's this relative icing impulse in the culture in general. While there is it's all around us were drowning in it at all times, but it is important to see the reality that is Christianity because you're right. Other worldviews try to explain the world and yet Christianity stands over and against all of the world. Use what you say. Aside from obviously the truth of Christianity sets us apart is a worldview from other worldviews, you know, might I have a 12-year-old daughter who was baptized as a Christian when she was six, but when she is about eight you started asking questions and she said Papa why do we believe God is true, and so on. The apologist I'm supposed to come up with something found right but she's only eight years old at the time so I thought about it for moment and I suddenly realize this is what came to mind. I said honey. The reason that we believe God is true is because he's the best explanation for the way things are. Just think about that statement for moment I realized after I said it that this is really the way I conduct myself as a Christian apologist or case maker. I think Christianity has tremendous explanatory power. We are able to take the teachings of Christianity and show that this makes sense of the way the world really is like talk about some of those themes in the book about that. The problem, something is wrong with the world. You know, everybody knows that something is wrong with man. Everybody knows that to and but something beautiful about man at the same time there's a purpose for our lives.

We all know that as well and we explained that if you look at other worldviews.

They are not adequate to explain those things in a way that resonates with our deepest intuitions about the world. Christianity does. It explains it has tremendous explanatory power and this is why think it's so compelling to quote CS Lewis. He says I believe and I believe in Christianity, like I believe in the sun, not just because I'm aware of the sun, but by the sun. I can see everything else. I think this puts Christianity head and shoulders above the other world worldviews. Well said, you note that the Christian story began long before Jesus. Many people might point to the birth of Jesus of Nazareth is the starting point of Christianity. How do you explain to a non-Christian now. Now we have to go way back before Jesus to understand Christianity well when you think about it if you're going to have a worldview of the worldview is going to have to explain very foundational things. The most important things and characteristically all worldviews he dealt with for issues creation fall redemption restoration. In other words how things began to what is the fundamental nature of everything. What went wrong fall, how you fix it redemption and what things look like when you put the fix in place in every worldview. Even secularist worldviews humanist worldviews to follow that pattern. Even though they would use maybe the religious language so if I were to talk to an atheist, for example and and and and tell him the story of Christianity in the story reality I'm telling the best place to start is at the beginning, and here's the way our story starts in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth becomes a launching point for me to make sense of the rest of the story look at a few jumping in the middle which a lot of people do it, Jesus. I mean you can do that.

That's called one-step method but it leaves a lot of questions unanswered, and I find that if you start with the two-step word that is you start with God and then go to Jesus. You are able to lay a foundation that allows people to see what I think a moment ago how the story of reality. The Christian story is the best explanation for the way things are very well said Frank will be back with Greg Koegel. His book the story of reality stay with us will with everything going on in our world today, life can seem pretty dismal. We have a pandemic, riots, racial tension, you might be asking how can we make any difference will here's one way you can make a huge difference in someone's life to the ministry of pre-born pre-born is dedicated to saving babies lives from abortion through offering free ultrasounds to pregnant women in crisis. And when women in crisis pregnancy see their babies on ultrasound and hear the heartbeat. 8/10 times they'll choose life for their children, born is the largest provider of free ultrasounds in the USA and pre-born sinners are often situated in the highest risk abortion hotspots competing with Planned Parenthood for babies lives. The mainstream media doesn't want you to know that Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood had a racist legacy stemming from her well-documented connections with the eugenics movements. If you want to help make a difference in the midst of chaos. Please support pre-born one ultrasound is just $28 and five ultrasounds are $140 saving five babies lives 100% of your donation goes to saving babies lives. Please call 855402, baby. That's 855-402-2229.

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That's 855-402-2229 or there's a banner to once again, 855402, baby. That's 855-402-2229. You're listening to Joe that Mefford today and I'm delighted to have with me Greg Koegel, founder and president of Stan to reason and the author of the Brandon book the story of reality and it is looking at Christianity over and against other views, because it is the best explanation for the way things actually are. This is a great approach Greg. I love the way that your approaching the truth of Christianity, and in kind of a broad-based way and we were talking about the different stories how the Christian story differs from other stories. The fact that we need to go back to Genesis 11, where it says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

What we learn in the early chapters of Genesis that really so clearly lays that foundation for everything else we need to understand about God and his saving power right in the opening lines of any book or a movie story are meant to tell you the basics that the basic stage.

In addition to the characters tell you what the world is like that you're dealing with here.

Our story starts not with stuff but rather a person, God himself does that for a couple reasons. One reason is because the story is about God. Yes, it's not about you know we have the tendency to go to the Bible as Christians and and think will. This is about you know God's plan for my life instead of all that really it's about our lives for God's plan. So it starts with God because he is the key is the main character.

Secondly, it identifies synthesis God created the heavens and the earth. Notice how it identifies two types of things God is an invisible, immaterial spirit, but the world he creates, includes physical stuff so it turns out that in our world. In our story the way we understand reality. We have two different kinds of things that are completely at home in our story. We have invisible things and we have visible things we have God and a whole bunch of other things that he made that are invisible mind if you will souls, but you also have physical things as well. Both are at home in our story, so when we start talking later on down the line about about spirits or demons and evident hell with all kinds of other things that are not part of the natural world. People take offense. They say a little crazy. Well, it's only crazy if you look at it from inside their worldview.

But if you see it from within our worldview. It makes perfect sense. Just like if you go to the Lord of the rings of the hobbit tour Chronicles of Narnia. Those are different worlds that run by different rules and so we need to assess the Christian worldview from the world that is presented there. So that's another thing that we get 1/3 thing that we get as we got God making everything else and that gives us an indication if you make something, it's yours. In other words, he owns everything, including us. That's right there.

The first life, but you also have Janet you have the theme of the whole story that's really captured there you have in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. You have a king that creates a domain or you have a king and a or a kingdom. Yes, the story is about God's rightful rulership over everything that is his, which is everything and so that's the foundation that is late for everything that follows's that's important because if we have the worldview that says on the center of my universe is in modern American culture. We like to say whatever is true for me is what works and I am the you know the only person I can really determine what that is. This shifts the focus to say the one who created the heavens and the earth is the one who rules his kingdom. It reminds me of what Romans nine says about. He is the Potter and we are sorry but we don't think that much about that very much these days that there seems to be more of an emphasis on I'm important and it's all about me right in it quite subtle, sometimes in the church and so you go to church and her all the triumphalism and everything is wonderful and everything is great because God made relationship with him. Wonderful. What turns out there's probably 85% of the people in the congregation that are not experiencing that they are going through difficult times and hard times and they sometimes feel blah.

What's wrong with me because I'm not experiencing that what they term as a kind of a trial for life and the reason that there discouraged is because they don't realize that it's not about them it's about God and God has his own purposes and suffering is a main part of the Christian life. Read the book of first Peter, for goodness sake, it's all about. First Thessalonians, or second Thessalonians, or the book of Hebrews. These are all books that were written to suffering Christians. And so if we if we don't get the perspective from the outset correct. It's going to create a lot of struggle in our Christian life. If we get the yard are dominoes in the right order, so to speak, God first and second will that changes everything. It sure does. So when you come to these questions.

People will raise about God which we hear again and again and again, you point out these two obstacles. The world isn't as it should be, which a lot of people say most people say and if there were God and if he really were good.

Any really were powerful the world would not be the way it is right when you take the reality of its what's the response.

Well, these are what I like to tell people is preeminent in the book is that the problem of people what you just described is not foreign to our story. In fact, it is central to our story. The problem starts in chapter 3, and it goes through 66 looks all the way to the end. Our whole story is about resolving the problem of evil in our story is not over yet. So what I want people to see is that the problem of evil fits in our story in our story.

It's intelligible because we have good and evil opposing each other in the atheist materialistic story. The problem of evil is not even intelligible. They have just molecules clashing in the universe. They have dominoes falling. There is no good and evil in the ultimate sense so you can even make sense of the problem of evil on a materialist view of the world. Christianity, we can make sense of it. That's part of reality, we don't have to deny reality we say, yeah, we got a handle on that and here's how God solves it. That's our story. This brings up another point Janet is not just the problem of evil. It's a stumbling block for people it's also the Jesus is the only way of salvation go like that is mildly counterintuitive for them politically correct. But these two issues are connected, they are they are joined at the hip. The problem of evil and Jesus being the only way and when people begin to see their connectedness and this is what I develop in the book. We realize that this is not a problem that for Christianity the way some people think it is the problem of evil and Jesus being the only way they are really one is the appropriate answer to the other steps so well said that the whole story is about resolving the problem of evil something else strikes me to Greg and I did I'd be curious for your response on this. The same people who often objects to evil and say there's evil in the world. Therefore, there couldn't be a God would be the same people who would demand freedom from being God's puppets.

In other words, they want freedom, but I don't want evil, but it was the very freedom that Adam and Eve had that led to the choosing of sin in the first place. So that part of the story is critical as well Janet, that's a very good observation and a lot of people don't see especially the ones that are holding that view that this internal contradiction there.

Yes, I want God to deal with evil but not my people, not me. Nothing with me and one thing I point out in the book is that the thing that went wrong with the world was caused by what went wrong with man man broke the world and man was able to break the world because he was given a valuable liberty by gap by God that we all consider important and if we would if God were to take that liberty away at me. This is exactly what is being fought now in the culture. Think of the gender issue.

It used to be.

I want the liberty to have the kind of sex that I want to help.

Okay, now it's I'm taking the liberty to these effects. I want to be six cases of radical autonomy.

People love their liberty. But there's a cost that's involved. God does give liberty, but that creates problems in God's could have the have the final say in the end on that one, that's for sure.

So when we talk about another line that you have the book.

I think this is really critical and talking about man and falling into sin you see in about God's goodness made possible a world that could have badness. What is that me well I think would simply God. God wanted us, I think it is some speculation here, but it is pretty safe.

God wanted us to be happy. Okay he wanted us to share in his happiness, but the happiness that God has is because it is based on his goodness.

You cannot be happy if you're not good.

That's the way God made us all right.

How could we be good in any meaningful sense. God wanted us to learn it goodness to develop virtue over time in order to do that he had to make us the kind of people that could choose goodness over badness but that also meant that we could choose badness over goodness so something good that God did, which is making creatures that could develop virtue and share in his goodness and therefore his happiness is the thing that made possible the kind of bad that we see with the problem of evil. It was a good thing that made a bad thing possible, not inevitable but certainly possible show commands evil is tied actually to a good thing that God did, which is giving us moral freedom of people say will of God will really good.

He wouldn't let us do evil bows just the opposite is because he's really good that he gives us that liberty. There's other good things that are at stake in the process.

And that's why he did that, as you said before, Greg. It often is the case that people who complain about evil in the world are looking in the mirror there looking out the window.

That guy down there really needs to get it not understand why he gets away with that and she gets away with that in this government does this well is what was it Chesterton who said what's wrong with the world. I am was not Chesterton who said you also the one that is one thing that I want Christian doctrine that empirically provable and that's the fallenness of their original any world worldview has to deal with you to think about human beings, one that human beings are reported are as beautiful Greg got around to a brakes.

This archived broadcast of Janet for today is brought to you by liberty.

Health share liberty. Healthcare is a nonprofit healthcare sharing ministry that allows you to control and manage your own healthcare and choose any doctor or hospital in the nation. If your freedom loving American looking for contract free healthcare call now 855-585-4237 or go to liberty, health for more information liberty Janet Mefford and here's your host Joe Carmack on Santa for today talking about the story of reality.

The new book from Greg Coco from and the reason it's always it's like to have my favorite guest here with me talking about the broad important issues of life and what things you were talking about before we went to the break. Greg was the concept of original sin and people who struggle with the world, being evil, but they don't necessarily want to struggle with their own sent this also confirm the narrative of Christianity that that's part of our problem yeah absolutely true. I know I was lecturing at Berkeley. A number of years ago to a large portion on Christian audience and I said or something I know about every single person in this room that you you know about yourself, but you want other people to know that if you have a bad self-image.

How I know that because everybody does.

That is, we look down inside of ourselves and we see something that we don't like that thing is broken is something moral. There's bad in their okay and we have a feeling about that and the feeling that we have about our moral brokenness is I actually asked the audience what is the word that we use to describe the feeling that we have when we realize that were morally broken and you start your start to say it killed the Sagal Celts. What we feel guilty. Well maybe because we are guilty of this is a universal Christian human experience. I should say that that there something that is wrong.

Okay, we all know something is wrong. This is one reason why people raise the problem of evil there something wrong with the world, but it's not just the world or something wrong with us, but there's also something else we are not that we are not just broken but we are beautiful wheat we stand above everything else, even though there's a trend now to try to make us mere animals. We actually know better. This is what we we should be guessing Jews, but we can gas termite we tell people don't treat each other like animals as we realize, were more than animals and so these two features of the world.

The beauty of man and uniqueness of man and man's brokenness are something that every worldview.

If it purports to tell you the truth about reality has to deal with many worldviews. Ignore those things. Christianity is a worldview meets. It had on explains why were beautiful were made in the image of God and that grounds all of our obligations morally towards each other ground all of our rights. Whatever rights we think we have. We can only have those because God has given us those right, which by the way, our founders understood which his wife.

He wrote that in the Declaration of Independence, so we all know that there something beautiful about us, but we all recalled know that there's something broken. Christianity explains that as well and that is that we have fallen from grace.

We have rebelled against our sovereign and now we are criminals in his creation and we have to deal with that problem and that's how the story unfolds and brings us to the person of the rescuer Jesus of Nazareth, exactly. Now for a lot of people. They will acknowledge Jesus as a great moral teacher or somebody who really has good things to say about feeding the poor and whatever social justice issue happens to float your boat at any given moment. But fundamentally, Jesus is not about his teachings. Christianity is about Jesus. That's right.

Great way putting forth a social justice is concerned, I get so annoyed at people characterizing Jesus in that way, as this was the assumable the greatest good that you decided to start reading to the Gospels and quantifying his references to things that might be called social justice and and I think if I if I forwarded help people that you can take out every single thing Jesus ever said about the poor and not compromise his main message of one single bit.

They would think I was out of my mind. But this is exactly what one of Jesus closest friends.

John the beloved disciple did you can start in John 11 you could take it all the way to the end of that glorious gospel and you will not find a single word related to helping the poor or anything I can to social justice know that Jesus care about those things.

Yes he did but the point I'm making is it wasn't the reason that he came he came for another reason. And if we reduce him, his work to those teachings of social justice. We have missed it completely.

The story of Jesus or the part was about Jesus as you pointed out, Janet. It was about him. He drew attention to himself.

I am the way the truth and the life I am the living water.

I am the bread of life. I am the resurrection of the life and the life. And if he wasn't right on those things. He wasn't a good man and he wasn't a good profit. As CS Lewis points out, Jesus did not leave that option open to us said so, Jesus of Nazareth, who should has been obscure and forgotten in the annals of history that became the most important man who ever lived and it was this central claim of Jesus that he and the father were one that angered the Jewish leaders that he was a blasphemer they put him to death put it all in contacts for somebody who doesn't understand why did Jesus, what was his primary objective in God's plan.

Well if you think of the order of the story I used five words to capture the backbone of the outline in those five words are God, which we've already talked about man which we talked about Jesus cross resurrection to hear. I'm in the final resurrection to rewarded judgment.

So I got the beginning and the end and the important things that happened in between when when God created man to be in friendship with him and man rebelled. This created a huge problem and God could've just judged him.

Just then, just like he did the Angels but he chose not to instead he chose to become hate to initiate a rescue operation and he did that by becoming a man himself walking among his subjects serving them and then giving his life a ransom for the others know what to ransom. It's a payment in which you buy something what to Jesus by he gave his body to buy other bodies. He gave his life to buy the lives of those who put their trust in him and so you that there's kind of a sense of sensibility to the arithmetic here. Human beings incurred a debt they rebelled against God. They owe him obedience. They were the they deserve punishment, cheeses paste the debt takes the punishment lives the perfect life that man should have done, and it puts him in a unique position.

Janet now to be the sole rescuer of humanity. And that's why Jesus is the only way of salvation. He's the only one who solved the problem.

He did, yes, how was One Life sufficient to make payments for many lives that as well. How how how come he didn't have to be a one-for-one life trade. Well, if it was you or I doing that it would be that a life for life, but this is one of the reasons in the kind of divine arithmetic why it was so important that it was God who became a man, and it wasn't just some other person who said all dive my friend. It was because God became a man. There was a there was a quality to this in the God man Jesus of Nazareth that was capable where one man for God man was capable of rescuing for all time.

All of those who put their faith and trust in him. I love that while the promised Messiah who takes away the sin of the world is announced by John the Baptist. I'm also intrigued to at the other point of it all. Where Jesus died on the cross but was raised to life for our justification and in fact fulfilled the law on our behalf. What about this aspect of the gospel that Jesus fulfilled and obey the law and obeyed God and way you and I could never do. Janet is really important like you brought it up because a lot of times as Christians properly. We focus on the death of Christ, but we we don't always realize that the life of Jesus that is the life he did the merit he obtained through his perfect obedience to the father is just as important for us as his death because his death dealt with the sin, but it doesn't just bring asleep even with God. We see not only cook our punishment. We get his merit. We get his righteousness into her account. This is what justification is called the apostle Paul put it this way.

Integrity is five he said he the father made him Jesus, who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in him.

The reformers called that the marvelous exchange and understanding that we can be forgiven is only half of the story.

That's the death of Jesus understands is that we have Christ like you did to us was added to her bank account that God sees us in Christ that way. That's the other half is fabulous insert is over and come back to Greg Koegel. The story of reality hi this is Janet matter here today with Matt Ballis with liberty help share a national nonprofit healthcare sharing ministry. Many people today are confused about their options for covering their healthcare expenses as liberty healthcare different from insurance will we don't want to be insurance at all. We are called to help clear sharing ministry just meaning that as men and women. We are voluntarily sharing medical bills with one another. But that means that insurance does basically two things that we don't do one we don't share risk. We don't try to take risk and spread it out amongst as many people as possible. We are each individually responsible for our own. The second thing is that we don't pool our funds. We don't put our money into a big bureaucratic blackhole and hopefully someday will be able to get some money out of that. Those are the two main differences we don't spread risk and we don't pool our funds.

We are all, each individually responsible for our own healthcare and healthcare bill and we share our money whenever we need each other as it pertains to our healthcare bills so that's why were not insurance and we couldn't be more proud. Not to be insurance. Why would you say that healthcare sharing is a great option. Will it really does set people free within the confines of the community that helps you in times of need.

Were here to support each other in a community and help you during those times that are unexpected and unaffordable, but you have the individual have the ability, responsibility, and the freedom to make decisions within your healthcare that pertains to you and your family. Thanks Matt more information about liberty healthcare is or their phone number is 855-585-4237 you're listening to Medford today in the years Janet and Janet Mefford today. I gotta tell you, Greg Koegel. I never get tired of hearing the good news do you no matter how he times a hear Jesus paid for my sanity rose from the dead, and he justified me and he gave me his imputed righteousness. I am not in trouble anymore even though I'm a sinner I'm gonna go to heaven because of Jesus. It just never gets old so rich and one thing though is that sometimes we say those things over and over in it does get a little stale in our minds and was trying to accomplish with the story of reality which by the way people can get at the website. The story of so it's all laid out there. The story of, Amazon, etc. but what what what I am trying to do in the book is to communicate this all in a kind of a fresh way and that's always a challenge for a writer. How do you take something that's been around for long time and people heard so many times in one way that is a little bit stale in their mind, even though it's wonderful how I find a way to say at that is refreshing and palatable and easy to pass on to non-Christians. For example, I'm actually hoping a lot of people who are not Christian read this book were a lot of believers handbook to them because I've tried to take these concepts and put them in a very very accessible way in a friendly fashion.

A genial conversation as I step to tell the story of reality in a way that may make a huge difference on the non-Christian friends of your listeners. Well, I think you've done a very very excellent job of making it a fresh story once again because you know I don't often think of it in terms of Christianity is not just my own worldview. It's the worldview that makes sense of everything around you in a things from your mind and your soul and your body and matter and all the questions I have the beginning and the end and you talk about the end this fifth point that you mentioned in the book resurrection.

What about resurrection is unique in the Christian story well. It think there's a story there that is a part of that that that you, a person is not can invent all right and that is that that theory is there two things that are everybody lives forever.

That's the first thing everybody lives forever. Now that's good news and bad news. Good news is, everybody lives forever with Abaddon as well.

The bad news is, everybody lives forever because it that's bad news because for something that their story doesn't. And they lived happily ever after The final judgment and there will be a final judgment that is part of the story of reality Jesus who came first as a lamb will be there as a lion, and the judge and he came to distribute life but at the final judgment. He will distribute that to many people and one of two things is going to happen and either perfect mercy which is forgiveness for everything that you ever done wrong and God misses nothing or punishment for everything you've ever done wrong and God misses nothing.

You see, this is where justice is finally accomplished people are shaking their fist at God to say, why don't you do what's right. Do just as well that time will come.

But when that time comes, is not to be a pretty picture because, as Lewis points out, when the author walks out of the stage. The play is over and the time for mercy will be done for those who have not put their trust in God's rescuer and that's when the final. That's when the problem of evil will finally be resolved. Evildoers will be punished. Those who have repented will be forgiven and the world will be restored in the magnificent way so that this kind of darkness will never prevail on God's world ever again.

And if you put your trust in God's rescuer. You get to participate in the kind of world. Your heart is always long for going back to the issue of personal autonomy and how much we tend to love. It's it has its limits, doesn't it. When you start to talk to non-Christians about you want autonomy. One autonomy sexually one autonomy in terms of deciding what you want to do with your life etc. etc. etc. but your autonomy can be your undoing as well. I will give it this way, you know, nobody is ever free and I think this is what Paul's developing and in Romans chapter 6.

No one is ever free. You are either a slave to God or your slave to your fall itself, yes, but you never free us all gotten us out of it least.

And so if we are freedom now looks like I'm to do my own thing.

But the thing that is our own thing is destruction and this is what happens in people's life and they follow their own nonsense ideas, destruction, God has a better plan. Dennis is right, and using Jesus and his assent to set you free your free indeed were free in a different way than people might imagine the coming promise Greg and I'm glad that you talk about the end of all things, and the judgment is coming and there is a heaven and there is a hell. What about the promise of the resurrection of the dead, meaning our bodies. This is something I have not heard a whole lot of emphasis on in churches over the years that I've been a part of, but is such a matter of hope for the Christian references to the dead in Christ will rise first and then those who are alive will be caught up together in the clouds at famous reference picture.

First Thessalonians 4, but what about the resurrection of believers gives you hope will you know right now struggling with really bad back problems.

You know six of the body start to go me lots of people have a lot worse than I do. But even if you're you know you try to pump iron you to your exercises you will sooner or later the body goes, that's just part of the fall and we become more and more aware of how how finite and fallen. Our bodies are to and so when our natural state is to have our souls with our bodies. That's the way God wanted it. When we die. Our souls are torn from our bodies, and even when we go to glory after we die and be with the Lord. We are still in a somewhat unnatural state at the resurrection. God joins us once again with our souls in our souls with our bodies so that we are clothed, as Paul put it, we are not naked and we are in the fullest, most satisfying situation that God intended for us and those bodies will be perfect and they will have all kinds of what we would consider now to be supernatural qualities in his heart even to describe Paul stumbles in first person within 15 try to make sense of it. Explain what it's like. It's a mystery it's beyond us, but it's going to be wonderful, far beyond what we could ask or even think it's so true you know when you talk about the story of reality sound decently being built upon the truth that God is ruler and raining over his creation that it's his kingdom. It's a story about God. It's not a story about us how you tied it back in at the end of the story well I mentioned the theme of the story being the kingdom of God okay and that's his rightful rulership over all that it is when he made everything everything was just right.

It was all the way he wanted to be everything working together beautifully. That's what the text means when the story says everything that God made was good.

Okay Melchor since the fall. That's not been the same.

It's been good everything's been messed up. Of course that's what people's complaint is okay at the final resurrection. All of that's going to be restored.

All that it's going to be good again.

We are going to be naked and unashamed so to speak. Once again we are going to be in that rightful friendship with our father and all the rest of those who put their trust in God's Redeemer and you know it is very difficult. I talk about this at the end of the book. It's hard to describe what a perfect world is going to be like because we are so used to it and imperfect world, but I will say this, that God will be in full rain again on meaningful practical right no rebellion, no sent no darkness at all.

No night you know every tear wiped from every online all city raced in all the effects of city ration. Not only that all forgotten and we will move forward into a wonderful world it got house rush and the most valuable thing that we have of that world is him he will be his and he will be ours. We will have returned from that far off country and be restored to home and in a way that could get. That's a somewhat abstract way of putting it, but it it's the best I can do you know that thing that our hearts have always urine for will be ours and that the little glimpses we get in life. Of these, that this transcendent moments we get little tastes of of transcendence and tears all kinds of things could cause that. But that's just a taste. I think what is going to be like an eternity with God. It's going to be wonderful in your backspin to be all better. Yes I'm to have good eyes. Finally, I'm looking for but it is just such a great promise, and I love how you tie it all together because Christianity is not just one choice among many, many religions, but it is the only story of reality because we worship the one living and true God, the ruler and the king over his creation, who in his mercy sent us his son Jesus Christ to die and to rise again and it is the greatest news the world will ever hear. I highly recommend this one of this story of reality said it's the story of Also, the website) right right you can pick it up and Greg Koegel always love your work. I guess tear it out or stand to reason wonderful ministry and it was just great to talk to you again.

I think I am honored to have you be the first interview means a lot. Thank you so much for being with us. Greg really really appreciate God bless you and thanks for tuning in for today,

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