More Than A Carpenter (updated): Sean McDowell

For years, he wanted to be a speaker, and he tells the story of like Billy Graham coming to, I think it was Arrowhead if I remember correctly, someone drags in like mud. I just get emotional thinking about it. And they're like, Josh, you got to clean that up. And he's like, I'm not going to do this.

And then finally he had a thought of like, if I'm not willing to do this, you don't deserve any platform to reach people for the kingdom. Welcome to Family Life Today where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Shelby Abbott and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson.

You can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today. So we've got Sean McDowell sitting across us in the studio. What are you thinking? I love it when he's here. I feel like we have great conversation.

There's something too about legacy. When I see Sean, I think of Josh, his dad. And here's what I'm thinking about you. Me?

Yes, you, because I think Josh's work, More Than a Carpenter, the book that he wrote, Evidence that Demands a Verdict, were pivotal in your walk and journey with God. No question about that. We'll talk about that in a minute. But Sean, welcome. I wonder what you think when you come to the Crew Headquarters. Probably a bit of the headquarters a few times, but I've been coming to Crew events and where it used to be in Fort Collins, every two-year training. I was born and raised through Crew, so I feel at home here in that sense.

Family life obviously is on the grounds of Crew as well. And you probably don't know this, or maybe we've mentioned this when we've had you on before, but I came to Christ my junior year in college. So it was late, non-believing home, divorced family. Long story short, but Ann and I started dating, get married two years later.

So I'm still pretty new as a believer. We come on staff with Athletes in Action, a branch of Crew. They sent us to the University of Nebraska to be the chaplain for the sports teams there. So we're both working with all the collegiate athletes at the University of Nebraska.

Yeah, and I don't think it was three months where I wake up one day and said... He drops the biggest bomb. I walk in, I had just met with some woman on an appointment, some athlete, and he's sitting in the living room. He has his Bible on his lap. He goes, I don't even know if any of this is true. Oh my goodness. I said, what?

He goes, all of it. Bible? Jesus?

Resurrection? How do we know it's true? And I was like, we've devoted our lives to telling people about this and now you're doubting it?

Well, here's the good part of that story. She looked at me pretty shocked and she said this. Do you remember? She said, well, I know you need to find out. Go find out. Find out if this is true. She had no doubts about it, but she didn't say you're crazy. She just said, do the homework.

So guess what? I picked up Evidence in Man's Verdict. I picked up the book we're going to talk about today that you've revised and redone and you're now part of this with your dad more than a carpenter. Those were two critical resources that helped me. Literally, you know, I think I read every outline point in Evidence. Well, he's taught a class at the Institute of Biblical Studies, IBS at CREW that we took that class. Dave was so excited and Evidence in Man's Verdict. It is a textbook, man. And I was depressed.

Like, are you kidding me? We're going to have to go. But what it did is it gave us confidence, confidence of how to share the gospel of we're like building our lives and foundation on these principles and truths from scripture. And I guess you've heard stories like that many times.

So I have. Almost everywhere I go and I speak at a church or conference, somebody will talk about either more than a carpenter or evidence, one of two things. Either helped solidify my faith during a period of doubt, like you said, or it was a tool that God used to draw him to the kingdom in the first place.

And I tell you, Dave, I never get tired of hearing it. I don't. I'm so proud of my dad.

I'm amazed and humbled how much God has used him and he's used this book and others. And so I don't think you shared that. Certainly not in the depth you had before. That's just amazing. It shows that our heritage goes back way before the first radio show a few years ago and we met. Yeah, right. But there's real history there.

Now, did you have any of the same kind of struggle? I went through a period of doubt and this was probably mid 90s when I was freshman or sophomore in college. And it was the first time we had this new invention called the Internet.

And people are getting email addresses. It was pre-Google, but I was just searching around. I don't remember what I was searching for, but came across like the skeptical atheist web. And a lot of it was built on at that time because evidence was one of the only apologetic resources going back then.

Chapter by chapter, doctors, historians, lawyers responding to it. And this is just the first time I had really come across smart, intelligent, educated people who had good reasons why they weren't Christians. And it's like time froze and it was really the first time I thought I could be wrong about this. I know my parents mean well. But it was also the existential sense of like, wait a minute, what does this mean for my life and the afterlife and what I want to do? I mean, all those things, it was an emotional kind of experience. Had a conversation with my dad and same thing, kind of similar to your response, he didn't freak out. He's like, I love you and you got to find out what's true and, you know, just stayed calm.

And that's exactly what I needed to hear. So some of the backbone of the work I've done with my dad comes from my own sense of going, I need to know for myself if I can bank my life on this. Now, how much has your dad and his life and his work influenced what you're doing? I mean, you're a Christian apologist. You teach, you write, you speak basically in this same sort of area your dad worked in. Is that a big influence on your life, obviously?

I don't even know how to calculate that, to be honest. Now, there's no doubt that he has shaped my thinking and my life more than anybody. No question about that.

That's like tier one. But I tell my wife sometimes I say, you know, I get some amazing opportunities, but maybe I've developed and be a good speaker and writer and do these other things. But so oftentimes I hear stories like that and it just reminds me, you know what, this is a trail that's already been blazed and I've been given opportunities other people don't have. So in some alternate universe where I do what I do, but I'm not a McDowell, does my platform and opportunities look remotely like this?

Probably not. And so I don't even know how to calculate that, which is fine with me because I gave up long time ago trying to compete with my dad's influence in any sense. First off, it's a losing game. But second off, none of that stuff matters. All that matters is are you faithful to the opportunity that God has called you to?

And there's just a contentment and peace that comes from seeing it that way. What's it been like? And what's your relationship like with your dad now? Even to write with him? Because you guys have done several books together. You know, when I went through the questioning period, I didn't go to my dad for answers. I needed to go to other people like Mr. Miyagi and your Yoda and your Gandalf, people like William Lane Craig and J.P. Moreland and others.

You got to hear the same thing from somebody else. And he wasn't offended by that. Oh, my goodness.

He was thrilled by that. That's what he would want me to do. We had some conversations, but it wasn't like I just need to read evidence. I just had to hear from somebody else.

And that's also a popular level book. I needed to go back to some of the original sources and really dive in myself. But I asked my dad, I don't know, maybe five years ago, I said, what were you really thinking when I said I had doubts? And he goes, I really was not, I wasn't worried.

I said, why? He said, because the depth of the relationship you and I had, I knew you were going to come full circle. In other words, he knew I wasn't reacting out of anger, wasn't trying to prove him wrong. But because of our relationship, I could really follow truth where I felt that it led. And he said to me, he goes, you know, Jesus is the truth.

If you really seek after Jesus, I'm confident you'll be in the truth. So my dad's my hero. I mean, he's human like everybody else, but he's the real deal.

The way he treats my mom, the way he has a grandfather, his heart and his life just gives me nothing but profound respect for him. So talk about More Than a Carpenter. How'd this project come about and why? So he wrote it first in 1977. Now he wrote Evidence to Demand's Verdict.

That's how long ago it was? I think it was 1972 he first wrote Evidence to Demand's Verdict. By the way, you picked the right book to sort of do a, if you're going to do Evidence, I can't imagine how much work that would be. Well, he typed it out all himself on a typewriter initially. Evidence? Evidence, yeah, like on a typewriter.

This is the early 70s. No publisher wanted it. They didn't think he was going to sell. And that was really the result of him trying to disprove Christianity, being surprised by the evidence. And he started speaking on it and he made these little notes that he would carry around and they'd sell like gangbusters. So he's like, I'm just going to put this into a book.

And it's sold like wildfire. And that book, like you said, is a reference book. The latest update, we did an update to that in 2017, but the latest edition was 700 pages. And I think the footnotes are even longer than that, if I remember correctly. It's not meant to be read straight through, although like you, I meet a lot of people who read it, you know, cover to cover.

People kept saying to him for years, oh, I just wish I had a summary of that book. I could give you someone. That's what I said.

Yes, because you want to give it to someone. That's exactly right. Now, some people want the big book, other people like just give me the cliff notes, so to speak. And so that's why he wrote More Than a Carpenter.

He actually had, I think he had one or two or maybe three legal pads at one of the like famous McDonald's in Chicago. He went and just wrote this straight over hours, like his first draft, never dreaming that it would become one of the most popular Christian books in history. One of the most Christian books translated into other languages. And now, I don't know, 17 million plus copies in print. I don't think he ever dreamed that this book would be one of the greatest tools of impact that God used in his life for the kingdom. So how did you guys decide to update it?

And what's that look like? He wrote it in 77. I think he updated himself in the 80s, maybe, maybe again in the 90s, little tweaks. And then in 2009, we did a first update together. So I was getting ready to start my PhD.

I had a double masters. I had been teaching high school maybe five years at that point. And I think he felt like I could bring you on as a co-author and asked me to help him update it in 2009. And so, you know, wrote that in 2008. So that's what, 16 years ago, roughly.

And then I came to him and the team maybe a year or two ago and just said, it's been 15 years. So much has changed in culture. We need to take this from, it was a little bit more of a timely book to make it a timeless classic that could outlive if we never had a chance to update it again. Almost like a mere Christianity, make it a little bit more transcendent. And given that it had been 15 years, now I have my doctorate, have my own platform.

It's like it was an easy yes to get him on board to updating it again. So is it any different? It's different in a few ways. So in the 2009 version, we added a chapter on the new atheism because everybody was talking about Christopher Hitchens and Daniel Dennett and Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris. So the section on science, we added like the fine tuning argument and other arguments.

Well, that conversation has shifted since 15 years. So we took that chapter out and trimmed up the one on science. Where the Carpenter's always been the kind of book you could read in probably two to three hours on a plane ride from California to Dallas or something like that. We made it even shorter and tighter. So I went through the book and I thought, anytime there's a double quote where you don't need it, I'm taking it out.

So I haven't done the math, but I'm guessing we trimmed it up five to 10% from what was already a short book. So that's one change. When you have a book like this that works so well, you don't want to tinker with too much. Anytime I thought, you know what, this is a better idea.

I go, you know what, it's probably not. So it's really just not the skeleton and the meat, but just like some quotes. There was a quote that was like an updated quote on psychology and the Lord liar lunatic argument. And it was like, I forget the title, like the new, you know, psychiatry manual.

And I looked on like, okay, this is 1978. I think we need to update this. So we updated a few of those kinds of things. And there's some new arguments that have come out positively.

There's a handful of objections we needed to respond to. But the one piece we added, this was in the 2009 version, is my dad frames the story with his, his testimony, but in 2009 added the sexual abuse that he had been through. And this is before the me too movement, by the way, he took a gamble in a sense and started publicly talking about that when it was not like you kind of get victim status today in people's minds right now, interestingly enough.

Now it was the, it was the opposite at that point. And he's like, I need to share this. So we added, just made sure his story was really kind of up to date with things that had been public and some of the research had been updated.

But it's even a shorter book because I think attention spans are even less than they were. Hey guys, we just wanted to take a quick minute to jump in and say, whatever you're going through today, you aren't alone. Dave and I have a team at Family Life today, ready to pray for you. And it's this incredible honor and a privilege to lift your name up to God. So if you need prayer, please don't hesitate to reach out to us. I really mean that. Head on over to familylife.com slash pray for me.

We love to do it. So go to familylife.com slash pray for me and submit your requests. And I mean, do it right now. We would love to pray for you today. Sean, can you give our listeners just a little taste of maybe they haven't heard your dad's story? Sure.

Just a quick like wet our appetites for a little bit of the book because I think people are going to want to pick it up. So my dad grew up in about as broken of a background as you can imagine. My dad's dad was a town alcoholic.

My dad's older sister took her own life. My dad told me not long ago. He told me he goes, man, I get just thinking about it. He goes, I'm walking outside of the barn with my dad. And he says to me, he goes, you know what, son, you weren't even wanted.

You were a mistake. I mean, can you imagine being told that? So my dad was so embarrassed in a small town having this father was just shameful.

Everybody knows your business. And he was sexually abused by someone on their farm tells his mom, nobody believes you in the 40s. Didn't believe in the 90s, let alone the 40s. And so he just met some Christians who were different, had a love and a contentment about life. And he asked them what made their lives different. And they said, Jesus Christ.

My dad thought it was a joke. So he had money from a painting business. He'd just been successful in everything he touches like Midas Touch.

Just money and sports and politics. And he set out to try to show that Christianity was false. So he traveled to Europe, to Middle East, museums, libraries, meet with professors, and ended up being surprised by the evidence. The way he frames it, he goes, the evidence got my attention, but it was the love of God that really drew me. And so that was the heart of his ministry. How old was he when he gave his life to Jesus?

I feel like I should know that question, but he was probably in his lower to mid 20s, somewhere in that range would be my guess. But you got to realize at this stage, there's obviously no internet. There's no apologetics movement. No one had ever talked about it, had they at that point? Nobody had like C.S. Lewis, Francis Schaeffer, and my dad. Norm Geisel was starting at that time.

But there was no John Montgomery. I mean, there's a handful of people. Now it's a dime a dozen.

You can find on the internet and there's movements and conferences and master's degrees. He was really a trailblazer in this. And this book just took off for other reasons. But other than the people are like, wow, there's evidence you can actually have.

And I can read it in two or three hours and share this with somebody. It just was unheard of at that time. I mean, did he immediately start traveling and speaking about this or was it sort of a grassroots? I mean, we got William Lane Craig, you know, debating atheists all over the Internet.

Was any of that happening then? Even William Lane Craig, who did his doctorate on the resurrection, would talk about evidence that demands a verdict being one of the first times he heard it defended. Now, that's a popular defense. And Craig went and did an academic defense.

But even defenders like Craig, who are a decade plus younger than my dad, J.P. Moreland, Greg Kochel, Frank Beckwith. They'll attribute my dad as just saying he was a trailblazer doing it before anybody was. So he still wanted to become going to politics. He had a 10 year plan written out and he would have accomplished it to become the governor of Michigan. And he also wanted to go be a senator. He's one of the only people in my life. I didn't know that about Michigan.

Oh, yeah. He had literally a 10 year charted out like month by month how he would become the governor of Michigan. And I have literally zero doubt that he could have pulled off. He's one of the few people I know that actually could have been president of the United States and done well at it.

He just could have. And so he was planning on going to politics, went to Wheaton College. And that's where it really started to shift some of his thinking and then ended up going to Talbot School of Theology, not wanting to just kind of showing up. There's a whole back story to this, but showing up and like, I really don't want to enroll, but I feel like God is telling me to.

Classes start like tomorrow or something like you're in. He's like, OK. And then, you know, started eventually he was recruited personally by Bill Bright. He was. I was not because my dad was anything special at that point, but because crew was so early. And Bill would go around and go to Wheaton.

He'd go to these different places. And at least he he was one of the people that my dad met early, because that's how early crew was. And then he went on staff.

And even with staff, it was years before he was able to speak. Oh, really? Oh, my goodness. I remember hearing stories about your dad cleaning toilets. Oh, you've so this is a separate issue, but my all time I've done hundreds, if not thousands of interviews, all time favorite story is interviewing my father. He is truly a modern day Apostle Paul, supernatural experiences that only happened to him. But for years, he wanted to be a speaker. And he tells the story of like Billy Graham coming to I think it was Arrowhead, if I remember correctly. And he's like so jazzed to meet him because he wanted to be like Billy Graham.

Someone drags in like mud. I just get emotional thinking about it. And they're like, Josh, you got to clean that up. And he's like, I'm not going to do this. And then finally had a thought of like, if I'm not willing to do this, you don't deserve any platform to reach people for the kingdom.

So it took him a long time. And frankly, God picks people with certain skill sets and paths for certain seasons to speak on the free speech platform to debate Marxists and Muslims who tell you they're going to kill you if you come back to your country. You have to have a level of confidence bordering on hubris.

And my dad naturally has like, let's go. And so I think God had to sufficiently humble them by a lot of this. And that was a humbling moment.

You refer to cleaning toilets, cleaning up dirt and not getting to see Billy Graham. Like there's a lot of moments like that. Were there years of that?

I didn't recognize that that took a while. He was on crew for years. He went to Canada. He was down in Latin America debating Marxists and getting thrown in prison. And I mean, it's like he was thrown in prison. I don't even know half this stuff.

If you really, if you just search Sean McTale, Josh McTale YouTube, he shares stories on this and they will blow you away. So he enrolled into a Marxist school because he was debating Marxists and wanted to learn firsthand. They learned he had infiltrated him and what he was doing. So they threw a 12 year old girl in front of his car. Nothing he could do. Ran her over and then arrested him. Threw him in prison.

That's awful. Yeah. And he's like, I remember hearing people getting tortured from his prison cell. He goes, he actually, he has a lot of stuff you see in the movies of like prisons in Latin America.

He goes, that stuff was not too inaccurate. At least this must have been, I don't know, the sixties or something like that. Early sixties maybe. Now when you hear that story, you're tearing up.

What are you feeling? You know, my dad's 85 and he's, he's retired. He's not publicly speaking anymore. And so writing this book is probably one of the last public things we'll probably do together. Yeah.

What a beautiful legacy. So that also makes me want to hear all of his stories. Are those on your YouTube channel that you interviewed him with those stories?

I did twice. And I mean, I could tell you stories that are, I mean, literally supernatural, like. Tell us some.

Well, I'll tell you one. He's at Talbot and he was really bothered by, his mom had passed away. He knew his dad had become a Christian because he led him to Christ, but his mom had died years before.

He was a believer. Thank you. It's been a long time since someone gave me tissue in an interview. Notice I didn't get one.

I need it. He was walking out of the Santa Monica pier. He was, which is not too far from Biola and Talbot. And he said, I was standing at the end praying. I just needed to know if my mom was saved or not. And somebody walked up thinking he was like, maybe going to jump and commit suicide or something like that. And ends up having a conversation that if I remember correctly, this individual knew my mom, my grandma from Michigan. And was at a revival and went forward with her to accept Christ. I mean, this must have been, I don't know, 20s or 30s.

Really? So how we possibly knew this person at Santa Monica at that moment, like, I'm sorry. That's just clearly supernatural. It's so crazy. And he's the only person I know that this kind of stuff has happened consistently over and over again to his life.

So that's one example. I mean, I could tell you more. I want people to go, listen, because it's my all time favorite interview. But there was a time when he was speaking for crew.

I don't remember where it was at. He would remember and they were in a big outdoor college campus kind of presentation. Somebody was revving their engine and trying to distract everything and nobody could hear. And he just turned. He goes, he says something. He goes, I learned about the authority of the believer. I was like, in the name of Jesus Christ, be silent.

And the engine blows up. He's like, that's where I gained confidence in the authority of the believer. I didn't think I'd have the guts to pray that.

I just wouldn't. Did he pray it out loud? Oh, I don't remember if he did.

I think he did. And it was like, these are just the kinds of things. Stop conceiving doing that, couldn't you? It's like storm, be still. We're all teary. I mean, I think we're teary because of the move of God. Amen. And your life and your legacy and your dad here.

I mean, we didn't know those stories. And I think it gives us all hope that maybe our kids will question. But I love your dad's confidence in his God and Jesus that you'd come back. Just makes me hopeful for our legacies. It feels like the world.

I think it can feel crazy for all of us. And I think more than ever, we're worried about our kids and our families and our grandkids. And I think you guys, you and your dad, your family, Sean, they give us hope that the gospel will continue and Jesus prevails. I mean, you know, we got to wrap up. But if your dad is listening to this program and you were like, Dad, I want to say this to you, what would you say to him?

You know what? I can honestly tell you. I think I've told my dad everything that I want to communicate to him.

That's awesome. And that's only because for the last five years, I think since he turned 80, every time we hear him on the phone, I always, the last words are, I love you. Because I want that to be my last words to my dad. So I've thought about a lot. Are there any questions I haven't asked him that in five years I'll think, oh, why didn't I ask him this? I feel that way about my grandpa who served in World War Two. I'm like, I was such an idiot. Why didn't I ask him these questions? What on earth? I don't want to feel that way about my dad.

We had a big event with JMM, I think it was maybe two summers ago. And I thought, what's the last thing I just need to say to my dad that I would regret not saying? And the only thing that came to mind was I said in front of his staff, I said, thanks for not ever pressuring me to go into ministry. Thanks for not ever putting any expectations on me other than just use your gifts for the kingdom, whatever they are.

So I can't think of anything other than I just tell him I love him again and I'm proud of him. Yeah. And I would say, you know, on behalf of Ann and I and hopefully thousands of listeners, thank you. He is impacted and you are now impacting us and thousands, hundreds of thousands, maybe possibly millions of people. What a legacy.

I mean, I think I'm really sitting here. And I didn't really know your dad, I just met him a couple of times, but because of his work, it reignited a faith. And here we are, 44, 45 years in ministry, when in year, in month two, I almost said, we just made the dumbest mistake of our lives and here we are.

And I was so thankful there was a resource for a person like me. And we're going to talk tomorrow a little bit more about more than a carpenter, because I mean, it's so simple. But profound. Profound. You know, and I think our listeners need to know a little bit more about more than a carpenter. You know, Josh McDowell has been so influential in countless lives, mine included, because of his faithfulness to Christ and advancing his kingdom. And Shawn is a living testament to that. It was so encouraging to hear this conversation with you.

And I think it's a great honor to be here with you. I'm Shelby Abbott, and you've been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Shawn McDowell on Family Life Today. Shawn has been an instrumental part in helping to create and rewrite more than a carpenter, originally written by his father, Josh, but they've worked on it together. And you can get your copy of the brand new edition of More Than a Carpenter right now by going online to familylifetoday.com, or you can look for the link in the show notes. Or feel free to give us a call to request your copy. Our number is 800-358-6329.

Again, that number is 800F as in family, L as in life, and then the word today. Hey, do you follow us on social media? If not, you can head over to Instagram and look for our handle at Family Life Insta or find us on Facebook. Just search for Family Life. That way you'll get more regular encouragement from the Ministry of Family Life Today. Now coming up tomorrow, Shawn McDowell is back, and he's going to talk about the new edition of More Than a Carpenter. This book examines arguments for Jesus's resurrection and divinity and addresses contemporary questions and challenges in Christian apologetics. So check that out tomorrow when Shawn is back. On behalf of David and Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a donor-supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.