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Redefining Masculinity: Kevin “KB” Burgess & Ameen Hudson

Family Life Today / Dave & Ann Wilson, Bob Lepine
The Truth Network Radio
June 13, 2024 5:15 am

Redefining Masculinity: Kevin “KB” Burgess & Ameen Hudson

Family Life Today / Dave & Ann Wilson, Bob Lepine

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June 13, 2024 5:15 am

Rapper Kevin “KB” Burgess and Ameen Hudson examine the critical causes and effects of the crisis of masculinity--and the kind of manhood that changes the world.

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Your boys need to know that not only that you love them, which is important, they need to know that you think that they're strong. Now, remember those one time in particular, I pushed him to do something he didn't think he could do.

And he did it. And he walked to me afterwards and said, Daddy, you make me feel powerful. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at This is Family Life Today.

Today. Seven, eight years ago, we're doing a marriage conference in Dallas. My buddy John Kitten, who played for the Lions, is now a coach for the Cowboys. He finds out we're in Dallas for the weekend. They're playing the Vikings on Sunday night and says, Will you come over and do chapel for the Cowboys Saturday night?

Yeah, I'll do it. I get this message together. I'm driving to the facility. Chapel's in like 20 minutes, and John calls me and goes, Hey, here's what you need to talk about. I go, Dude, it's 20 minutes. And he goes, I'm a coach on this team.

I know what this team needs. I'm telling you what to talk about. I go, Sorry, John, I'm not switching it. I can't even write anything down. I'm driving. He goes, I'm telling you what to talk about. You're the you your stuff on manhood is what this team needs. Talk about that. I'm like, Okay, I'll figure something out. So I get there and I get up.

And my opening line was this. I've been in the NFL locker rooms for 30 plus seasons. NFL locker rooms are full of boys and few men. Men win championships, boys don't.

Let's talk about what a man is. And I could tell. I mean, everybody's there. Dak's there. Zeke's there. Everybody's there.

Jason Garrison coach. And I can tell when I said, locker rooms are full of boys, not men. Now the world outside of that locker room thinks all NFL players are men. But all the guys in that room, they were looking at me like this dude knows. He knows we're a bunch of boys.

We don't really know what manhood is. It was so funny. I get done and Jason Garrett, who I've never met. He's the head coach, comes up and goes, Dude, that was exactly what we needed. How did you know that?

I'm like, Oh, you know, I just felt like John's behind him. Like I told him, I told him. But anyway, we've got two men in the room today. And we had a discussion at lunch.

About this topic a little bit. Wasn't that a great lunch with these guys? Oh, it was awesome. And our last show we did yesterday, you guys were, I'm fired up. I am fired up. I love it. Anyway, so we got Amin and KV Burgess.

Amin, what's your last name? Hudson. That's easy. And you've got a baby due soon. Yes.

End of February. Shout out to my wife, Jasmine Hudson. I love you, baby. Guess what? When this airs, you're already a dad.

That's right. So shout out to my future self then. You're doing a good job and everything's going to be okay. You are up right now through the diapers. You're going to make it through that. Poopy diapers, get ready. A lot of screaming at night.

No sleep. Anyway, it's all great. So let's talk a little bit about manhood. Because we had, we started a discussion at lunch.

A lot of listeners, a lot of parents raising boys, a lot of women that are interested in this whole thing. Where would you start? Man, that is a very hard question.

Where you start? Yeah. I think if I had to take a stab at it, and I mean, please, he's more intelligent than I am. You can, more insightful than I am.

I'm just trying to rub two thoughts together. So one, I think it's important, like the sons of Issachar, to understand the times before you know what to do. You need to understand the times.

That's good. I think it's important to recognize that there is a boy crisis, a man crisis in this country right now that actually spans across every Western space in this planet, on this planet. Men, we talked about here recently, about last year, I preached a sermon on June 19th, Juneteenth, and I preached a sermon, and in the first six months of that year, there had been over 200 school shootings, and all of them were done by men.

All of them, or boys. And a brilliant author talked about how our response to that is, well, it's the video games, it's the family values, it's the culture issue at home. But the author, he's the author of The Boy Crisis, he pointed out how our daughters are growing up in those exact same homes, with those exact same video games, with those exact same family values, and they are not killing us, our boys are. In addition to that, our boys are taking their own lives. It has outpaced any pandemic you can think of. We are leading the world, particularly young men, in taking our own lives.

Put all the wars together, World War II, Vietnam, the Civil War, we are outpacing them all in self-inflicted mortality. That's a pandemic in itself. It is. Awful.

Absolutely. And because the political, all of life is politicized in ways that perhaps we've never seen before, and I'm going to bounce past it to you, it's difficult to talk about it without sounding like you are scoring points for a particular side. So if you try to come to the aid, if you talk about toxic masculinity, which is a thing, clearly, we've talked about how you see men that are online all day talking about how emotional women are and how out of control they are of their emotions.

And I always say, I have never met a woman who had her shoe stepped on and she took the life of the person who did it over a basketball game or a spilled cup of juice. There's some emotional issues with our men. I don't see women getting out of cars and fighting in traffic either.

Where are those videos on YouTube? Anyways, there's clearly a toxic masculinity issue, but there's also a masculinity issue on the fact that men are, in a lot of ways, trailing behind in every arena and are suffering in unique ways that aren't simply because of some kind of misogynistic culture. Even you speaking to what is going on with men and our ability to be able to talk to it or not be able to really say anything about it because of the political discourse. I think that a big part of that is because the political discourse has become so polarized around several issues, but manhood being, well gender in general, but then manhood being one of them. We've addressed things in culture like toxic masculinity, misogyny, sexism, all of those things are things that need to be addressed. But you can't, like you said KB, really address the issue that is happening with men without it making men seem like victims. And then a certain political side will say, well you all are just painting men to be victims. So there's no sympathy for men because they run everything and they're ruining everything. But I think that if we cannot have a public discourse where we can admit to and actually recognize the reality of the trouble that men and boys are in, that we cannot do anything about the actual problem that men and boys are facing. As you said, the self mortality rates is high. Men are falling very far behind women when it comes to degrees in college. The fatherhood is being impacted.

So all of those things, it's awesome that we want to see women empowered and we fight for that. But there's also at the same time, both and, there is a problem with men and that problem is only going to get worse if we don't address it. And I think that because there is a masculinity problem and we are not really speaking to it as we should, there are other voices outside of Christian voices that are filling those spaces. Who's filling the spaces? Andrew Tate would probably be at the top of the list and y'all can edit him out if you want because I certainly don't want to introduce him to any more people.

But Andrew Tate was the most googled man on the planet for, he had a long run that spanned it over months. And there's been several reports even recently, particularly from Christian spaces, that there are young Christian men and women who are being absolutely dominated by this idea that masculinity looks like this macho sort of, you know, you are overbearing. You also, since you are the man, Andrew, I've heard this come from what's called the manosphere online, many times that men built the world that these women live in. And there's a kind of disdain for women. You can hear it in all of the conversation that there is a, I hate how they are outpacing.

I hate the ways in which we focus on their issues and I hate the way I feel rejected by them. And my reaction to that is to over-masculinize what it means to live among people in this world into something that is absolutely oppressive to women, but not just women, okay? It's oppressive to men. Because if you try to approximate a version of manhood that literally leaves Jesus out, we talk about this, there's a great book called The Warrior Poet where there's this dynamic of that God has called you to a level of strength.

You have muscles in certain areas on purpose, okay? And the idea is that you would use that for the protection of the group. There's value in that. Valor is important. Hard work is important. Lifting heavy things, I'm not talking about the gym, I'm just talking about, you know, Boy Christ talks about, you know, simply dudes on roofs putting together houses and these dangerous jobs.

Those things are important for our society. But if you think that just acting as a warrior, and oftentimes it's just a warrior in people's minds, in men's minds, I'm a warrior on Call of Duty when I'm playing PlayStation. Or I'm a warrior in the gym because I drink a lot of protein. I am a fighter. Believe me when I tell you, you are not more dangerous because you have big muscles, okay?

Oftentimes you're less dangerous, actually. But the idea is that if you try to center masculinity on just being this strong warrior presence, you miss that there's another side of what it means to be a man that is personified perfectly in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was the 100% man. And that I am strong, but I'm also meek.

I am generous, but I'm also faithful to my bride. I am, I'm wise, but I'm also able to be humble and told that I'm wrong. I feel emotions of righteous indignation.

I'm ready and willing to march and to stand, but I also am ready and willing to listen. It's a warrior-poet balance that if it is not present in our men, we're not solving our rank depression. The studies are showing that men are not even talking to women anymore. So when I want to go, as a young man trying to pursue a marriage, men aren't doing it the regular way from which men would normally do it, like, hey, my name is. Even that is being shut down.

Hey? And they don't even know how to do it. They don't. That's true. They're shooting a text or, I mean, it's crazy. Okay, so you have an eight and nine-year-old boy. Is that right, KB?

I do. That's correct. So here they're being bombarded. Our world is bombarding these boys with these false images of what a true man is, a biblical, godly man.

You've got the world pushing in on them. I'm thinking of all of our listeners with teenage boys. How do we go against that? We don't want to be the parent, you know, like, just take them to church like what you guys grew up. What are you doing as a father? Absolutely.

And it is perhaps my favorite thing to do in my life is to father my children. The biggest advice that I would give, at least it's what comes to mind right now, I'll probably drive home and think of something better, but you can't just simply say, don't listen to these guys, right? That is a part of it.

Yeah. You need to say some no's. Certain voices will never be allowed in my home.

But I talked about this earlier that one of my favorite preachers said that rules without relationship equals rebellion. So if I am being given a set of fences, right, and I have no idea what these fences are for. See, a fence exists to keep something out and to protect what's in. An actual home that we've built that we work hard for to pay these bills and property taxes.

And we have great lives and families here. There's actually something beautiful inside the gate. And what I would say is for my parents is that we want to be able to, you know, swipe away the foolishness of some of the things that are arising on these alternative views of what it means to be a man. But in our homes, we have to work hard to present a more beautiful, more glorious, more convincing, more perfect imagination of what it means to be a man in the way that I treat Michelle in a way I care for her.

I love the way I love the way I listen to her, the way in which I organize when I am. I'm given tasks at my house. I have a job there. I have a duty there. The way I carry that out in the way that I show that my manhood isn't merely victories.

This is what you see online from guys like Andrew Tate. It's private jets. It's a harem of women, which I would not call victory. But I'm just saying you've been able to have these moments of success and opulence. One of the things that my family here at Family Life has been very gracious to me in allowing us to leave a little bit early because my son has a performance tonight at school.

And it's really important for him that I am there and I want to be there. Last night, my son had a little breakdown and he said simply, I'm going to fail tomorrow. And I was reminded of a conversation I had with a brother a few months ago when I was talking to him about how does he wrestle with his children not wanting to attempt things unless they're good at it. So that's what I'm saying. My boys are like, one of my boys in particular, it's like, I'll do it if I know I can kill it.

If I'm not going to kill it, I'm not going through that process where I look silly for six months. And I said to my friend, I want them to know that they can fail. And my friend said to me, have they ever seen you fail? And I stepped back and I thought, man, what they see from daddy is awards and albums dropping and concerts.

They see victory, victory, victory, victory. I don't think I've sat down with them and said, you know, daddy gets nervous every day, every day. You know, daddy sometimes is not sure if he knows what he's doing. And sometimes he knows he doesn't know what he's doing.

Right. You know, the daddy has moments where he weeps when he realized he's done something wrong, or he is rejoicing over the accomplishments of a new friend, of a friend's bringing a new baby into the world. Do you know that daddy is not perfect?

And I had that convo with my son last night and I saw his little eyes open up. Hold on, hold on. So you are like me. Yes. In some ways I am you.

Now, I definitely want to be a picture of where you need to go. Right. But make no mistake. We are humans.

And that is what I would argue. The prerequisite of the presence of God really being something that is honored as it should in your life. When you realize your dependency on it.

Yeah. You need your humanity. And if your children don't see it, they see you as a ruler. They see you as an authority and they see you as someone who doesn't make any mistakes. Then they will continue to see you not like Jesus, who was the high priest. But don't get it twisted.

I was made like you so I can sympathize with your weaknesses. That's good. Yeah.

This is the kind of high priest I am. Yeah. You know. And I think too like we've got some grandkids. We've got seven.

There are going to be seven grandkids. But I was amazed the other day when I was talking to them about my failures. Yeah. They wanted to know more. Yeah. More and more.

They know that we've done some things but they are like, tell us again the time that you were so scared and you totally messed up. I am like, what? Yeah.

I was surprised. But it gave them, I was watching like why do they want to know about my failures? I think that's it, KB. Yes.

Because they experienced the fear, the fear of failure. Yes. The rejection. Yes.

And they want to know how do I get beyond and through that? Yes, yes, yes. That is right on. I think that's good too because, and especially even what you're saying about the manosphere.

If you have kids that are learning this, these kind of unbiblical, this kind of unbiblical masculinity from the manosphere, all they are seeing is W's too. Yeah. So they're also, these guys in the manosphere are not talking about any of their failures. What is going on?

Where's my private jet? Right. What they're looking at is the distance between what that guy has and what I don't have. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? And a lot of times what that guy has is actually not really what he has.

It's just, he's just fronting for the internet. Yeah. But I think that that vulnerability is important. Yeah. And I think that even as a man myself, another thing that I think is important is affirming your sons. Yeah.

Like saying, I am proud of you. Yeah. You are doing a good job. Yep. Right? You see what the father does to Jesus, right? Yeah. He affirms him in front of people. This is my beloved son with whom I am well pleased. Yes.

In front of everybody. Yes, yes, yes. That's what a father does.

The goosebumps, bro. Right? That's what a father does. Yeah. And I think that your son may only see you also.

Yeah. Think about yourself. Does my son only see me as an authority? Mm-hmm. I think that one of the things is I need to let my son know I love you. I'm proud of you. I'm here for you. Mm-hmm. You're doing a great job. Yep. And thank you for being my son. Yeah, yeah.

Thank you for being here. Or thank you for doing this for your mother, right? Yep.

They need to know that you are not just an authority. Mm-hmm. But that they are loved, cared for, and that they are seen. Yeah. And I think that if you are affirming your son, then that takes a lot of the need for these other men. Right. Yes.

Who are not real men to affirm them. Yeah. And your daughters.

And your daughters. Yeah. Same thing.

Because they're going to go looking for it from another man. Yes. And you know, tonight, here's what I know as a dad now of adult sons and grandkids is your son's going to look out in that audience and you're going to be his strength. Amen. The strength of his father being there. Oh, I love it. Not only that he knows your weaknesses and your failures, but just sitting there. And I thought when that happens, he's getting strength from his father.

Same thing happens for us. Yes. Absolutely. I mean, it hit me.

I was like, well, that's how we get our strength, too. Absolutely. Our Heavenly Father applauds us and we're like, I can't do this. I can't do this. I can't do this. And I will give you strength in that moment to do it. Absolutely.

I watched my youngest son play college football and then a little bit in the NFL and he played at my, not for my college, but against my college. Okay. Gotcha.

Gotcha. And I remember the first time he scored three or four times in the stadium that I used to score multiple times. You had to throw that at him.

Yeah. But I was a quarterback, so he's a receiver. But I remember the first time at Ball State before I played, he scored and I remember as he was handing the ball to the refs, he just threw a glance right up where we're sitting.

And I knew it was sort of, hey, dad, I'm better than you, but better than that, it was like, I think I'm here because something you, it was one of those just seconds, like your strength is helping me do what I'm doing right now as a college athlete. And I thought that's going to happen to an eight year old boy tomorrow night or tonight. Yes, tonight. Tonight. Tonight. Amen.

Pretty cool. And if I could add to that, I'd also say what you just said is a great example of even what some of the research is showing that it's for boys in particular, that from their fathers and the effects that a father's presence in his son's life has unique benefits that you don't even see in your daughter's life. There's one study that the boy crisis pointed out that children that are born boys that are boys that are born prematurely, whose father is at the hospital regularly while the baby is growing to a place where they can leave, that if the father is present, the baby leaves the hospital faster. That there are things that happen when you are wrestling your boys, that their levels of testosterone and different reactions and emotions are leveling out and maturing and strengthening through your just wrestling with them regularly.

And one of the most powerful moments, I get a little emotional as you was talking because, you know, one, I see this being, I'm going to cry. So my son, Keanu, quiet, probably a quiet boy, introverted, cool by himself. We went and celebrated his sister's birthday, my daughter's birthday yesterday. And we would look up and like, where's Keanu?

He's just around by himself having a great time. And one day he told me after there was something hard that needed to be done and I pushed him. I said, you can do it. And I'm here for you to catch you if you can.

If you don't, I'm sorry. But you can, it's in the attempt. So I told him last night, son, you can't control how the audience is going to respond to you or what your classmates are going to control. But what men do is they give their all regardless. I give my all when I'm scared. I give my all when I'm unsure. I give my all when I don't know what the outcome is going to be. I give my all.

And I remember those one time in particular, some, this is a little like probably like six months ago. And I, I pushed him to do something he didn't think he could do. And he did it. And he walked to me afterwards and said, daddy, you make me feel powerful. And I, and I later read, read, uh, um, this, uh, some research was done on what boys need to hear from their fathers. And they talked about how there's a good argument to be made that they, that they're, your boys need to know, not that you just, not only that you love them, which is important. They need to know that you think that they're strong. You want them to feel strong and respected. You have what it takes to hear those words.

You have what it takes. And I mean, alluded to it in Jesus's life, there's two massive moments once before he goes to the cross and the other at the beginning of his ministry. And those are the only two times we saw God step down and speak audibly men, fathers. He didn't nod it. He didn't say, Hey, I see you are right job champ or I might get you ice cream after this.

No, it was very specific. This is my son and I, he hadn't done anything. He has not yet saved the world in time, but he's my son. My love for him is not only in what he does or will do, but who he is. He is my son and I'm proud to, I try to tell my boys often, I am honored to be your father and this is my son in whom I am well pleased. He makes me smile. You make me smile, son. That kind of affirmation is what boys need, particularly from their fathers, but when they are about to go do hard things, scripture gives us that as a blueprint before he starts his ministry, before he goes to the cross, the father steps in and says, behold, I love this guy. This is a sermon, man.

This is so good. Yeah. And as you're saying, I was thinking when a son, and it's true for a daughter as well, but we're talking about boys right now, when a son understands his identity from his father in that sense, it breeds a confidence, even in the middle of a valley of fear. When he's standing on that stage tonight, there's a confidence down in there because his dad sort of said it and gave it to him, which you think about this, when they become, and you guys know this as teenage young men when you were in high school, they walk in a room now as a 15, 16, 18 year old or 30 year old. If you know your identity as a son of a dad and a son of a heavenly father, you are no longer pulled by who's in that room.

Yes. Like these guys want me to do this. Like, no, I'm not doing that. That's not who I am. But if you don't know that or your dad bailed out on you years ago and you don't have a sense, you're going to be pulled any way it goes. And you're going to give into things. Before you walked in that room said, I won't do this and you find yourself doing it because you don't know who you are.

You don't know who you are. That's what a dad and a mom, but a dad can really do. Way to go. Absolutely. They're doing this.

Guys, I know we're out of time, but I'm just thinking of all the single moms that don't have a dad or a husband in their home and they have these sons and like, what do we do? Can you just give us, give a minute to give them encouragement? Absolutely. First of all, there is equally great content on the importance of a mother's presence in their boy's life along with their daughters. But this is a, we talked about it from one angle largely, but let's make no mistake that this was designed to be a tag team effort for the building up of whole men and women in this world. I think for one, one of the beautiful things about the grace of God is that the grace of God is a gap filler. In the book, Boy Crisis, that was written by an author who he's not, it wasn't a Christian book and I don't know if the guy is a Christian, but he certainly doesn't talk about his faith if he does, if he is publicly. But this gentleman had done research on this issue for years. And in the book, the Boy Crisis, there's this little chapter called Can God the Father Heal a Wounded Son? And in this little chapter, he talks about this research that he found largely coming out of inner cities and not to say the fatherless is just an issue in inner cities, it's a national international issue. But he's found, he found that boys were finding God the Father in churches, Christian churches and finding healing and wholeness that was matching what you would get from having a father in the home.

That's encouraging. This is secular research. And I think that there's something to that, that our, this is why we need healthy churches that are filled with men who love God's people, that love the fatherless. I have no ears for anybody coming from a, I won't name any names, but you're coming from a perspective where you are talking about fatherlessness, particularly in the inner city, yet you do not have any plan of addressing that fatherlessness outside of talking about his political point to score points against the liberals that you don't like. Because the fact of the matter is, what is the phrase that is attributed to God more than almost any other phrase in the whole Testament? It is that he is a father to the fatherless. The target of God's love throughout the OT is fatherless individuals. Job says that if I have not cared for the fatherless, the fatherless with the food of my own house, then I should be judged by God. It is important to the people of God to be fathers and mothers for that matter to the fatherless. I think there is much hope in that and where there's grace in the church, and if there is not that in your church or in your family, and maybe there's more of a communal kind of family, like the one that I grew in where my uncles would approximate fatherhood in my life or my grandfather's.

If that's not there, know that the power of prayer, the power, like that's what I saw in my life. Did you both have, did either of you have fathers in your home growing up? Not really. I didn't. I mean, I saw my dad once a year.

See, I'm looking at both of you, you didn't have your dads, and neither did Dave. And I look at you godly men who are impacting and changing the world for Jesus. Amen. There is hope. There is. Amen.

Absolutely. And that, you said that much better than I could have. That's what I would tell. What she said is what I would tell.

That's exactly right. My single mothers. Amen. We're Dave and Anne Wilson, and you've been listening to Family Life Today. We've been talking with KB and Amine Hudson, and KB's written a book called Dangerous Jesus, why the only thing more risky than getting Jesus right is getting Jesus wrong. And you can get a copy at And you might not know this about family life, but we're donor-supported. That means that conversations like today's get into people's homes and cars because of financial partners who believe in reaching others with God's plan for families. And right now, when you partner financially with Family Life to help more conversations like today's get into more homes, we want to send you, as our thanks, a copy of Cissie Goff's book, The Worry-Free Parent, sounds like a good book, doesn't it?

The Worry-Free Parent, living in confidence so your kids can too. You can partner with us at or by calling 800-358-6329. That's 1-800-F as in family, L as in life, and then the word today. Or you can mail your donation to Family Life, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, Florida, 32832. Make sure to let us know you'd like a copy of The Worry-Free Parent by Cissie Goff. And let me say thanks for partnering with Family Life. And if you know anyone who needs to hear today's conversation, would you share it with them from wherever you get your podcasts? And while you're there, you can help others learn about Family Life today by leaving us a review. We're Ann and Dave Wilson, and we'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a donor-supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry. Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.
Whisper: medium.en / 2024-06-13 07:27:46 / 2024-06-13 07:41:09 / 13

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