John Cooper: Awake and Alive to Truth

The agent and the promoter of the gig said, hey, we want you to know you guys could we think could be the next biggest band in the world. You've got to stop talking about Jesus. Don't do Christian shows. Don't do Christian interviews. Don't do Christian radio. And so we said, you know what?

Not only are we not going to deny Christ, we're going to get louder for Jesus. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson. And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us at familylifetoday.com or on our Family Life app.

This is Family Life Today. Okay, I got a question for you. Okay. Have you ever been in a situation where if you denied Christ, it would be a good thing?

Like it would be a gain. Like if you just deny him, like say I'm not a follower or whatever. Oh, yeah. Okay.

You know, the thing that just came to my mind, I don't know if you would describe it as that. I'm setting you up for something. I know I'm ready.

Okay. I don't know if you know what I'm setting you up for. I just gave my life to Jesus.

Maybe this is what you're thinking. I just gave my life to Jesus. I'm in high school.

I'm 16. And I know no other Christians. I'd never gone to church. And I start reading the Bible and it is changing my life. And so I go up to my best friend and you know, she's like, why are you reading the Bible? And I'm reading the Bible every day in this study hall. And so here I am again, telling her about what Jesus says in the Bible. And I push my Bible over to her.

And I said, read this, read this right here. And she looks at me and she goes, and she's whispering because we're in class, she goes, I am so sick of you telling me about Jesus and this stupid Bible. And she takes all these pages in my Bible and she rips them out and like, and I was so mad and so upset. And I thought, I'm going to lose this friendship.

I'm totally going to lose it. And I went home and I started praying. I said, Jesus, I must be messing something up because I wanted her to want to know you, but I must be doing something wrong that would make her not want to know you. And then I opened the Bible and I come to Matthew 5 where it says, blessed are you who are persecuted for my name's sake. And I was like, what? What?

And you know, I have my arms up like, yes, yes, God. But I lost that friendship. She didn't want to have anything to do with me. And I wasn't going to dumb down my faith and not talk about him because he was my everything.

But there's more to this story that we can tell later because she ends up back in your life later. But the reason I ask you that question is because we're sitting here with John and Corey Cooper. I was going to say the front men and women of the band Skillet.

I guess there's a front man, which is John. But you guys, when I even watch you on stages with looks like tens of thousands of people out there, pre-COVID, I'm guessing. It's so cool to see a husband and wife up leading all these young kids in songs that glorify Christ. That's got to be sort of fun to do that as a married couple, right? Oh, absolutely. I mean, it's fun for me.

What do you think? But it's totally fun for me. You guys have sold over 12 million albums. That's remarkable. It's really crazy.

And it's funny because, you know, most people still don't know who Skillet is. People come up to me sometimes and they're like, they have this look on their face. And I'm thinking, they're looking at me like maybe they think they know me. But I don't know what to say.

I'm never presumptuous. And I don't know what to do. So I'm just like, I just wish they would ask me. And so then finally they're like, are you who I think you are? And I'm like, probably not. But who do you think I am? And I'm telling you, they're almost never right.

Really? No, they always think I'm a baseball player. I'm an MMA fighter, which I like it when they think I'm MMA. I'm always like, yeah, that's me. They always think I'm somebody, but not me.

And then I'm like, no, I'm sorry. I'm actually playing a band called Skillet. And they're like, what's it called?

I'm like, don't worry about it. I bet a lot of people ask, why Skillet? How did you come up with that name? People do ask that.

And it's a question that I'm always asking myself too. Why in the world did I go with that dumb name Skillet? You know, when we first started, we were all from different bands. And it was actually my pastor. He said, hey, John, I think that you would work good with this other guitar player from this other band.

And he said, you should start a side project and write some songs, see if it goes good. And it'd be like cooking, taking all these ingredients from different things and throwing a big Skillet. And then somebody said, dude, you should call it Skillet.

That'd be funny. And I was like, yeah, okay. I mean, it won't last long. Twenty five years later, I'm like, I'm like, you know what? Don't be rash in your decisions. Think about the name of your band before you commit to a thing. Yeah, I think God's teaching me.

He's teaching me a lesson there about not being rash. And anyway, so I don't love the name Skillet, but it was the 90s. It was the 90s. And everybody listening that remembers the 90s knows the dumber the band name, the cooler the band.

Right? Nirvana, that's not a great name. Pearl Jam, Korn. And then all the bands with the numbers. There was like, I don't know if you remember that in the 90s, but it was all like Third Eye Blind, Blink 182. It was like random numbers or letters, Blue 286.

So you just say stuff and you put it together. So it's like, you know, Plank Eye. There was a Christian man called Plank Eye. Yeah, I remember Plank Eye. Remember that? Yeah.

It's Matthew six. I got the log in my own eye. That's right. Yeah. I used to sing a song called Log Eye. You ever sing Log Eye? No. You want me to do it for you?

I'm not going to do it for you. It's a fun little country song about, you know, the log. But, you know, as you start out, you know, with the band Skillet, did you know then you would end up selling in, selling out arenas? I mean, was that always the dream?

Did it happen quickly? I mean, we certainly, you certainly hope it will, don't you? You're very optimistic about where you could go. Though, I mean, he had just given up playing music, so he was just happy that got to give it back to him. And yeah, you think you're going to kind of rule the world because you think this is what I'm called to do, like be a world changer, which means, you know, X, Y, Z. Yeah, you always have an idea of what you mean. Then after a couple of years in the van, you're like, maybe this is what all that was, is just me being faithful and playing for like 25 people.

Yeah, it's like, oh, Abraham never saw all those descendants. Exactly. So then you think, okay, this is fine. Like, I'm content.

Whatever God has for me, he'll open doors. And then it starts getting big and you're like, what's happening? Is this for real? So when we finally got to a place where we were big, it took us years to catch up with it because we were still in the van mentality of like, this is going to go away soon.

I don't think this is going to last. You like to believe it. You know, it's like they say like ugly duckling syndrome.

You hear people say that, you know, about like the girl that wasn't pretty and then she was really pretty in college, but she never believes it. That was like us with rock music. You know, people are like, you know, you guys are so a lot. And I'm like, I don't think anybody knows who we are, but it kind of got big and we still didn't believe it because we'd had 10 years of album. I think we had five records out before we sold a lot of records and 13 years before we had a radio hit, you know, and still to this day, we've never had a Christian AC radio hit, not a single one. I think they only played two of our songs. Even our biggest song, Monster, was never a number one.

Yeah, even Monster wasn't. It just kept growing and growing and growing, didn't it? We're like, we don't know. So it's kind of been a funny story, but I think it's just for us, of course, you hope it's going to be big. But for us to be 100 percent honest, I didn't even mind being in the van. I didn't love it. But it was like, it's not about that. It's about the message. And I know that that sounds easy to say, but it was true. It was about the message. It was about the fact that God can use music to change people's lives because music softens people's hearts because it gets into your emotions. You know, it makes you open to hearing what that person has to say, which is why music is so dangerous as well. We have kids listening to the most God-forsaken, lawless music there is, Sexual Revolution music. And they're like, I don't even know what the words are.

It's like, yeah, but it is getting in there. I absolutely believe that the enemy works like that through art. But art does not belong to the enemy. Everything belongs to the Lordship of Christ. So we should be making art that brings the art world back into subjection to the feet of Christ, right? So I do believe that music can be used like that.

So we didn't really care that there was only 30, 50 people coming to shows. And because some of those people were getting saved and some of these people were, they were the people that you go like, I don't know if the Lord can break in on them. Guess what? He can.

You know what I mean? And he did. And it was so wonderful to see it happen.

And then God just kept blessing it. It was kind of weird. I'm the guy that was in the band that, you know, never made it. Yeah, I'm the frontman of the Daydreamers. Right. It's not Skillet. It's not the Beatles.

It's the Daydreamers. That should have told you everything you need to know. I thought you were super hot, though, when I was in middle school.

She was there with four other girls and, you know, flipping my hair over playing my guitar and singing. So we never made it. So, you know, as I pick up your book, which is just an awesome book, Awaken Alive to the Truth by John Cooper, you open, I think you call it pre-show, where you tell this story about an agent who came over to you as you were starting out. You weren't big yet. Well, I guess you're sort of big. But, you know, it was an interesting discussion that he says, if you deny Christ, you're really going to be rich and famous.

Right. Tell us that story because it's really interesting what went through and it was the both of you making a decision. Yeah, I think what was interesting about the story, I did decide to open the book with it because I was thinking, a lot of people, maybe they get their hands on this, won't know who I am.

Maybe they won't understand why I'm writing this. This was the first and best example I had of when I started realizing really how deceitful the enemy is and what I think the enemy has really done a good job, unfortunately, in our culture, in Christian culture right now, twisting the truth. And basically we were, at the time we had a song that was just hitting at radio, our first one, 13 years in our career, and it was starting to hit. We were on a massive tour. We were the opening band.

There was three other bands, all platinum artists. And so there was an after show bowling party and they said, hey, all the bands are invited. And truthfully, I didn't want to go because we had kids and they would wake up at 6 a.m. and we couldn't hang out. But I didn't want to be the Christian band that never has any fun with anybody. I was like, I'll go bowling just to show them that I want to be buddies and I'll leave early. But while I was there, somebody said, hey, John, they called out to me and I could not believe they knew who I was because these were big, important people in the rock world. These were radio people there, promoters, agents, and this was the agent and the promoter of the gig. I didn't know they knew my name, you know, and they said, hey, we want you to know, watch the show, you guys could, we think could be the next biggest band in the world. And I was flabbergasted. Wow.

I think you could be the next biggest band in the world. You guys need to strike while it's hot. He said, OK. I said, all right. What were you thinking right then?

I just I was just like, wow, that's just crazy. I don't know what he means by strike when it's hot, but I'm here. Yeah. I'm not bowling when he strikes, but I'm ready to strike, baby.

OK, sounds good. And he has this look on his face like, I don't think this guy gets it. And he's right. I didn't get it. I just was like, cool. And he's like, do you understand what I'm saying? I said, yeah, yeah, man. You know, he could tell I didn't know what he's talking about. And he goes, look, I'm going to say it to you straight because nobody else is gonna.

He said, here's the deal. Skillet, you have the songs, you have the look, you have this uber positivity about your music. Rock and roll is just now looking for positivity and you guys have it. He said, to be honest, spirituality is, people are looking for that in rock music for the first time in decades. Everybody's faking it, but you actually have it. You've got girls in your band that used to not be popular.

Now it's popular. And you've been doing it for a long time. He's like, I'm telling you, you could be the biggest band. You've got to stop talking about Jesus. Don't do Christian shows. Don't do Christian interviews. Don't do Christian radio. Don't talk about being a Christian band because it makes you seem like fake rock and roll, not a fake Christian.

It makes you seem like Diet Coke instead of Coke, right? I was sitting there staring at him like, oh, wow, OK, I see what he's saying. But then he went into this, the last thing I'll say about it, he went into this sort of thing saying, but look, I'm not saying you have to deny Christ. Just deny Christian music as a title.

Don't talk about it. And then he said, think about the good that you can do in the world. If you don't talk about Jesus, you can help the poor.

You can be positive. You can tell people to be good people. And he actually said to me, he's like, everybody likes Bono. Do what Bono does from YouTube. Everybody likes Bono. And he said, imagine the good you could do for Jesus if you had a lot of money.

You can do that later. And so this is why I started the book with this, because the book is about relativism. It's about the absolute truth of Jesus Christ that never, ever changes. The world is telling us that truth is not absolute.

And this was the first time that I had heard that sort of, man, I mean, that was deceptive, right? And I was like, he kind of is true. I mean, I could just be positive and then later talk about Jesus. He's not wrong in what he's saying.

I could just gain a bigger platform. There's so many ways that you could think through that. That's right. And he was giving me, quote, good advice. It might not be godly advice. It was good advice. So I started that story to say that basically that was a life-changing moment for me, not because it changed who I was, it was life-changing because it made me aware of what the enemy was doing.

And we made a decision, Cory, and we talked about it. We just knew right off the bat, this isn't the Lord. God brought back the scripture to my mind. If you confess me before men, I will confess you before my Father.

But if you deny me before men, ooh, that's frightening to me. And so we said, you know what, not only are we not going to deny Christ, we're going to get louder for Jesus. Because this thing that's happening that the devil is doing is ripping our young people off and to such a degree that there are so many people that say they're Christians who I think think they're Christians, but we don't know. Do they actually know Jesus? Do they have a relationship with Christ?

Is there fruit of repentance or not? And it's a scary place. And so it's time, I believe, for Christian platform people, celebrities, artists, influencers, it's time for us to be very clear about what the gospel is. And that's why I wrote the book.

Yeah, that's a beautiful story. Cory, do you remember that conversation? I mean, was there any temptation like, yeah, maybe we should? Or was it just as soon as John came in and said, here's what this guy said, was it an easy decision?

Yeah, I would say it was an easy decision. If somebody says to you, yeah, just deny Christ, it's obvious. And we would be like, no.

In fact, now we want to shout out louder because you're trying to get us to deny it. You know, it's sometimes it's the subtlety. It's what John was talking about. It's like in Genesis, like in the garden, when the enemy comes to Eve and it's like, did God really say?

And he kind of spins it to where she believes that God is withholding something good from her, even though she's walked with him. And I think that's kind of like a message for us in our daily lives. If it was obvious, we know we wouldn't do it probably. But he comes in subtly and we're called to daily obedience, right?

So I think we'd be like, is it really that bad to, you know, I don't know, look on Instagram today? Well, it is if God's led you to just today's a day not to look at it, right? So the daily obedience of things is how you grow in your relationship with God.

And you have to be super radical in the daily stuff because to disobey is sin. Like if there's good that we know we should do and we don't do it, that for us is sin as well. I don't want to stand before God and have regrets, right? Because when you stand before him, everything's going to be clear. Like, why didn't I do that? Or why did I let, you know, that anxiety rule me or define me?

Or why did I, why was I still bitter towards my husband because he did hurt me? Like there's stuff you just got to let go. And it's in the daily, call me before God, the daily repentance, you know?

So something like that. I mean, for us, we knew even doing music in the rock world, it's like, all right, you're going into enemy territory, period. So even us going on rock tours, it's like some of these people have gotten as far away from God as they could. And then you show up and they're like, oh, there's a Christian man here. Or a lot of times we get, you know, players in the bands will be like, I saw you guys when I was like in youth group, you know?

And you're like, okay, now you're on a rock tour. They've gotten as far away from it as they can and you show up. That's how God does, you know? There's not darkness that's too dark for him to show up. And so like, all right, we already know we're on enemy territory. We just need to be very, very clear and we need God to lead us and we need wisdom. So when John came back, it was like, all right, this smells like the enemy.

Because he's even trying to paint it in a good way. Like, oh, wow, you could have way too big of a bigger influence. And then you can come out with the Jesus stuff.

You're like, no, this feels like compromise for us and we're just not doing it. Who would you be had you made the decision to be famous? Someone we hated? Yes, someone I hate. It's okay to say that when it's in terms of your own flesh, isn't it?

For yourself, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I even said that in the introduction of the book. It was like, what if we didn't make that decision? You know, what I think honestly could have happened is, unfortunately, what I see happening with so much of Christian leaders right now, which is very much a watered down gospel that is so tame that the world doesn't hate it. It's just friendship with the world. I obviously want to be friends with sinners, but I'm not looking to make peace in terms of what I believe. I'm not looking to say, hey, don't worry about what Jesus says about A, B, or C, or D, because I know that feels mean to you, so we ignore it. I think what we have now is such a watered down version of the gospel.

I think the best way to say it is that the world is kind of comfortable with Jesus as Savior, but they are not comfortable with Jesus as Lord. I think we could see that happening by the grace of God that didn't happen, which I'm so very thankful for, but I do have a load of friends that have fallen into that trap, and it just happens with a little bit of, as Corey said, just like Eve in the garden. It happens with a little bit of, I think my ideas might be a little better than God's. It really is what it is, isn't it? I think it might be a better way to evangelize than what the Bible says.

I think I have a better way to show what sin really is than the Bible, and it just takes you down a bad place. And we are seeing the fruit of it now in the church today. You're listening to Dave and Anne Wilson with John and Corey Cooper of the band Skillet on Family Life today. We'll hear more of their conversation in just a minute, but first, as you can imagine, we've had to make some tough choices again this year like everyone else. We're hoping that through the generosity of people just like you, we can continue to reach your home and all the homes that need help and hope for the relationships that matter most. This is an especially unique and critical time of year to donate because we've had some friends of the ministry come alongside us and offer to double your monthly gifts for 12 months up to $300,000. It's when you become a monthly partner right now. So that means if you give $25 a month, the impact is actually $50 a month.

You get the idea. On top of all that I've just mentioned, when you give this month as our thanks to you, we'll send you a bundle of resources, including two books. One is called A Lifelong Love by Gary Thomas, and the second is called Not Part of the Plan by Kristen Clark and Bethany Beale, who were guests earlier this week on Family Life Today. So become a monthly partner, have your gift doubled for a year, impact families for the glory of Christ, and get a bundle of books.

It's a win, win, win, win, win, win, win. You can give right now at FamilyLifeToday.com or by calling 1-800-358-6329. That's 1-800-F as in Family, L as in Life, and then the word Today. All right, now back to Dave and Anne with John and Corey Cooper and the temptation to hide our faith as Christians.

Here's Dave. All of us, followers of Christ, are tempted almost daily to be quiet or deny. I mean, we're not going to have an agent come up to us and say, hey, this is your future if you do this.

Oh, just a compromise. But sitting on an airplane, I don't know how many times, sitting beside some guy I don't know, and he asks this simple question, so what do you do? And there's many times it goes through my mind. I could say for years I'm a pastor or I'm the chaplain of the Detroit Lions. There's been a time or two where I didn't want to offend a guy, so I'm like, ah, I do marriage stuff for pro athletes, which is true.

But I'm afraid to acknowledge in front of some guy I don't even know and will never talk to again. Sometimes we, in a subtle, small compromise, deny, and who knows where that little thing will lead. I was thinking of a story when I was in seminary. President Ron Jensen told this story I'll never forget.

This is decades ago about being on an airplane. He's the president of this theological seminary. He's sitting beside some guy, a businessman. They're just hitting it off, talking, having a great time, laughing. He said, man, we're 20, 30 minutes in.

We're really enjoying each other. And all of a sudden the guy asks Ron, hey, so what do you do for a living? And Ron says, oh, I'm the president of a theological seminary in Southern California. And the guy goes, what? Tell me again what you do?

I'm the president of a seminary that develops Christians that go into ministry. And he says, this guy looks at him and goes, you mean to tell me you're a Christian? And he's all mad. Like, dude, I liked you. You're cool. We were hitting it off. You're not one of, it was all in one statement.

Oh, wow. You mean to tell me you're a Christian? And I'll never forget, Ron just says, I sat there and I looked back at him. And he goes, I turned to him, I go, you mean to tell me you're not?

And the guy looked at him and I'll never forget, Ron just went on. He goes, I turned to him, I go, do you realize I'm forgiven of all my sins? What do you got?

Do you realize? And he goes, I have a purpose and a destiny in my life. That's what Jesus has given me.

What do you have? Do you realize that my marriage is based on a rock of Jesus Christ? I know why I'm married.

I know where we're going. What do you got? He goes, I just went on for like four or five minutes. And he wasn't combative. No, he was just saying, this is why and this is what I got.

What do you got? And he goes, literally the guy after about a minute of that looked at him and goes, wow, I guess I really don't have much, do I? And I've never forgotten that because I thought so often we're so soft and we want to be gentle and I get it. We do. And we want to be tactful and loving to people, but to be bold and to stand up and say, I'm going to do the opposite of deny. I'm going to proclaim boldly who my Lord and savior is. And like you said, John, not just my savior, but my Lord who's in control of my life. And man, I want to compel you by the love of Christ to the same guy. I mean, that's pretty powerful what you've done with your platform. And you guys are compelling. I'm listening to you. And a lot of times we hear stories even in our own lives, like man, when I gave my life to Christ, even like me, like I'm going to follow Jesus no matter what.

If my friend doesn't like me, I don't care. I'm going to follow him. You guys still have that white hot love and passion for Jesus. Why?

How is that true still? May it never end, right baby? May it just increase.

Yeah. And I think people are listening like, how are they still like that? You've been believers a long time, most of your lives.

Well, thank you. And likewise, I've been meeting so many people like you guys, like us, so many people with this same fire and this same zeal, and it's been so amazing. I think the times we're in also are making more people aware. You know, it's almost like, you know, you had just said a second ago, we do want to be nice, of course, but we are, Christians have been kind of playing by rules in a game that the world is not really playing by right now, right? I'll sit down on a plane, the person next to me in no way is embarrassed to tell me about how much they hate Christianity or how much they hate traditional marriage or how they hate X, Y, Z. They're not embarrassed at all about pushing what I would call is like a humanistic, atheistic agenda. And I'm playing by these rules like, I just want to be nice and love people.

It's like, you know what? Maybe it's not time for that. Look what it's producing in this, especially our young people. Our young people are completely untethered from any sort of absolute truth, any sort of absolute morality.

And what is okay in terms of the culture? What they are told is right and wrong changes on a daily basis, according to TikTok, according to the most unimpressive people and most immoral people on the planet are telling all of our young people how to live. So I think for us, it is the passion of the word of God of if you adhere to the word of God, you're not just pleasing God, there are benefits. Your life is stable because it is covenant blessing. It's covenant law keeping.

And then God gives you covenant blessing because you are living in accordance with the design of God. And it's such a peaceful place to be. And I meet these young people at shows and they are completely chaotic. And they are, I'm sure you've seen all the same stuff I am, young girls, suicide up 51% year to year, depression rates up, anxiety rates up.

People are pulling their hair out, these young people, because they are not tethered to anything. That's what gets me going is, oh, if you only knew how wonderful it was to know Jesus. And so we both are passionate about that, right? Yeah, and I would say for me, you know, obviously by the grace of God who chose you and made himself known to you. For me, I'm like a very deep person. So you know, for me, I have always felt that very deep ache of like, something's wrong if I don't know him. And the great thing about God is that if you seek him, you'll find him when you seek him with all your heart, right? If it's like the treasure in the field, like, if you're willing to give up everything, you will find something that's so far beyond what you could ever get on your own. And I'm like, that's what I want.

I don't care about anything else. I just want him in my life. And the more that I have of him, the more I want of him. It's like the crazy addiction of like, I'm just so passionate for you. I can't believe you chose me. I can't believe you love me. And the idea that you love me and have broken into my life just, it just gets me, you know, and I want to live for you. And I want other people to see you and know you like this, because it's the greatest, most deepest fulfillment, just knowing him.

Period. You know, so, so I don't ever want that to not feel like this. You know, I didn't used to cry when I was younger. And around the time I was about 13 years old, I was at a youth retreat. And I knew Jesus as my friend, you know, I would journal all the time, like, Lord, you know, what's going on?

And, you know, whatever. And these are the things I'm feeling, blah, blah, blah, very, very much so, you know, open with him. And just praying that he would do something in my life more. And I went to this youth retreat and, you know, one of my friends wanted to go up and get prayed for. I'm like, yeah, I'll go up with you because everything's cool with me.

I was always like cool and not emotional. And so I go up with her and suddenly somebody comes up to me like, I just feel like I need to pray for you. I'm like, that's cool.

Like, I don't want her to feel like embarrassed that she missed it because I was totally fine. And so she starts praying for me and I just start weeping. It was like one of the most intense God experiences for me. And God just started doing stuff in my life. And since then, every time I talk about him, I cry, which, you know, reading the Bible to your kids, reading a psalm to your kids and you crying. And like, my son's just putting his arm on me like, it's okay, mom. I'm like, I know, I feel love for him so deeply, such gratitude for him so deeply.

And I just want to know more and I just want to serve him with my life, you know. You know, and that's the beauty of as a parent trying to reach your children for Christ when they see it's real in mom and dad. Like, we're not doing something we're supposed to do because the pastor of the Bible said it's an overflow of what God's doing right now in me. And our child sees that. That's something hard to walk away from. You know, they can walk away from the commandments and things we say. But man, when they see mom and dad and it's real, it draws them back. And so I'm sitting here just, I'm inspired by your life.

Me too. Thinking, man, you know, God's called you to be on stages and on buses and in cities. He's called us and our listeners in different ways to do the exact same thing in the way God has made us and gifted us in our cul-de-sac or apartment or cubicle at work to fall in love with Jesus and then shine in whatever way.

You're doing it through music. We're doing it our way. Man, whatever God's called you to do, follow him absolutely fully and watch God use you in a powerful, powerful way. It's not going to look the same as your life or our life, but it is going to be a legacy that changes the world. Amen. I believe that. Amen. Amen. We'll be back next week along with welcoming the uncomfortable works of God as David and talk with David Mathis about humility in the Christian life on behalf of David and Wilson. I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Today is a production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.