Jeff Norris: Rooted

All right. So if you think of a moment in your life or even our life where you felt like, I absolutely can't do this if God doesn't show up. What's the first one?

The first one that comes to my mind is the first one. Marry me. I know that. I should have thought that marrying you. This is Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson. And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us at familylifetoday.com or on the Family Life app.

This is Family Life Today. It was the first time I was speaking at a Weekend to Remember marriage conference, and I was 29 years old. And there were a thousand people in this ballroom, and I thought, I have no business being up there.

I have nothing to say apart from you, Jesus. And I was in the shower that morning on my stomach, on my face, begging God that he would use me. And the second thing that comes to my mind is when we came in to do radio. It makes me teary thinking about it because it was, again, that feeling like, Lord, we can't do this apart from your grace, apart from you, Holy Spirit. This is above our pay grade and our abilities and our giftedness. And so we got on our knees in the studio and said that, Lord, we can only do this empowered by your Spirit. What were you thinking? I mean, I don't want to make this about us, but there's a thousand moments.

But that last one was one of the first ones I thought of. How are we going to fill Dennis Rainey and Bob Lapine's shoes in a ministry they built over three decades that God bless? We have no right. We have not the gifts. And we're so afraid. We're going to wreck it. We're going to wreck it. We're going to ruin something that's great. And we got it on our face right there in the dark.

There's nobody there in the studio yet. And we ask God for that. And the reason we bring that up is we've got Jeff Norris in the studio with us today, who, Jeff, welcome to Family Life. You've never been to Family Life today, have you? No. First time. First time. I love it.

First impressions. Oh, just awesome. Yeah? Yeah. Everything from- What else are you going to say?

You're on air right now. Well, but I mean it. Yeah.

Gosh, the studio, the hospitality, you guys. Yeah, you're so nice. You've been friends with our president, David Robbins, for how many years? Oh, let's see. David and I go back 20 years, I guess.

Yeah. Hey, you know, if you go back 20 years, can you give us something? Something on David? Like a little dirt. Not dirt, but, you know, something nobody would know about this guy. Well, I don't know that I can do that on the air.

But tell us later. Yeah. Hey, did you ever see him dance? Oh, gosh, I can't count how many times I've seen him dance. Well, he can dance. Have you not seen him dance? No. No, I have. She missed it.

Okay. When he joined the Family Life speaker team, like Ann was just talking about, the weekend I remember speaker team, they have to do a skit to introduce themselves to the rest of the speaker team. Ann had to miss that little retreat, and he and Meg dance. And I was like, gee whiz, you can really lay it down.

Oh, they're incredible. Now, I mean, David's pushing mid 40s now, so I don't know if he has what he used to have, but back in the day, I mean, first time I ever saw David dance. He's going to kill me for saying this, but I was a student still.

He's a couple of years older than me. And I was a student in college, and I went to a CREW winner conference. And David was maybe a first or second year staff at that point with CREW, and he was the emcee.

And to open one of the meetings, he came out and danced with a group, and they had it choreographed, and it was just like boy band type thing. And I just remember thinking, wow. Did you think he was cool? I thought it was cool.

I also thought I could never do that. And so it was kind of like I was stunned and also impressed at the same time. I mean, little did I know that God would lead us to serve on the same staff team with CREW a few years later. And we got to be really close brothers in Christ, did a lot of life together, walked through a lot of hard things together.

And God kind of knit us, knit our hearts together during that time and our wives as well. And so it's been special. Well, hopefully our listeners will get to know that side of our president, David Robbins, the dancer, and Meg, actually, as well. But you're not here to talk about that. You're here to talk about a book you wrote called Rooted, which is the subtitle, A Lifestyle of Radical Dependence. Great book. As I was reading it, and you start right at the beginning where we were talking about this moment where you were like, I cannot do this. Tell us about that. Yeah. So as you guys were just talking, I mean, it resonated with me so much.

Even again, what you are all saying, just about stepping into this role, stepping into the shoes of Dennis Raney and Bob Lapine and feeling that so deeply in my own experience. A guy named Randy Pope is who planted a church called Perimeter Church in 1977. Outside Atlanta?

Yeah, just northeast of Atlanta, a suburb called Johns Creek, Georgia. He led it for 42 years. God used him. He's just incredibly humble. The church grew significantly, but he's probably the farthest thing I could imagine from a celebrity pastor. It's never been about him.

It's always been about the kingdom. And in so many ways, words really fail me to express what I think of him, how much I admire him, what a mentor he's been to me. He's mentored you since college, right? Since you were in college.

Yeah, many, many years. And so back up six years, and he invites me to come be on the staff at Perimeter Church as one of the assistant pastors. I had been on staff with CREW for 13 years at that point. And so after Rachel, my wife, and I prayed a lot, we felt like, yes, this is what the Lord is saying yes to. And so we made the move. And fall of 2019, I'm taking over as senior pastor, following in his footsteps. And what you guys opened the show with, I mean, I'm just reliving what I was feeling at the time and still feel all the time. Who am I?

I mean, who am I to step into this role, to lead this church? We feel our insecurities so deeply. The enemy, of course, comes at us so strongly that you can't do it.

You're not able. But then the Lord reminds us in a very gracious way. Yeah, but my powers may be perfect in weakness. And so I say all that to say that there was a moment in my life, and there have been many others, that was the most poignant, the most significant, the most just overwhelming moment of, Lord, I have to be radically dependent upon you. That was the phrase that came to my mind.

I have to be radically dependent upon you if I'm going to do this, if you're going to do this through me. And so that's kind of the genesis of the book. What ended up happening is that the very first sermon series that I did as senior pastor in the fall of 2019 was this, was essentially what this book is. We just talked about, OK, moving forward as a church, who are we going to be?

And even more significant and broad than that is, as a people of God, who are we to be? We have to be radically dependent upon Him. And it's not an optional thing. It's what He's called us to.

And yet it's one of the hardest things to do because we just so easily default into our own ability, our own power, our individualistic mindset that we have so deeply in the West. I think we just want to be safe. I just want to be safe.

I want to be happy. And that part of like to be radically dependent on Him requires like jumping out of the boat. And that's a scary place for us to be.

So as I'm thinking about that, is it a necessary place for us to be, do you think? As I've shared this with others in even thinking about that word radical. Yeah. I didn't love that word, but it's just been used so much. And I wrestled with, do we even name it that?

Do I name the series when I taught it that? Yeah, like it's lost its meaning. Yeah.

It used to be a euphemism. Oh, that's radical. Right.

Like what's that mean? Right. It's lessening in the meaning of it. But I kept coming back to it just because I think that is the word that we need. Yeah.

Because it pushes us towards something that is so very uncomfortable. So that's how you define it? How would you define it? Yeah, well, the irony of it is that what we're saying is radical is actually normal in the kingdom of God. Yeah. You know, but the title normal dependency just doesn't catch us the same as radical dependency, right?

But that's it. What we say, oh, man, that is radical dependence. You read the pages of scripture and you go, no, that's what God calls you to.

That's normal dependence in His economy and His kingdom. But because of our sin nature, because of our struggles, because of our doubts, our fears, and because of our sin, we feel as though, wow, that's radical. But radical would be, okay, I'm going to walk in what God has called me to walk in, in the way of self-sacrifice, dying to self. You know, when Jesus said, if you want to follow me, you must take up your cross daily, deny yourself, follow me. What does He mean by that? And does He mean what I think He means? And on one hand, it's like, yeah, it's just that simple.

You died to self. But on the other side of the coin, it's, wow, there's a lot to that that I'm not sure I want to sign up for. Jesus didn't mix any words as it came to what it meant to follow Him. You have to count the cost of discipleship. So being rooted in discipleship that's also anchored in self-sacrifice. But there's a beautiful, I think, I try to paint a picture of a beautiful dependence that's not only vertical, of a vertical dependence upon the Lord, first and foremost, but a horizontal dependence upon each other. That we're not going to radically depend upon the Lord unless we have that body of Christ surrounding us and we're doing life deeply together, helping each other be dependent upon the Lord and leading us each other to the cross. So, so many things I walk through in the book about, well, this means that we are not just thankful, but radically thankful. We're not just people who pray, but we radically pray in the sense of prayer is the ultimate expression of dependency.

So it's not to be a statement of condemnation. Well, I don't pray much, so I guess I'm not dependent, but more of motivation of, okay, well, if I want to be dependent, if that's what God's called me to, that His power is made perfect in my weakness, then weakness is an advantage. And therefore prayer is what I long to be true of me more and more.

And so I want to pray not out of guilt, but out of desire and longing in that even pursuit of dependence. It's interesting, even as I hear you say, you know, weakness is almost an advantage because it forces us to be dependent. Everything in my human DNA is like, no, no, no, no, we hate weakness. We like strength. We celebrate strength.

And yet you're exactly right. It's all through scripture. The only way we're going to even need to be dependent is we got to have to be weak. Yeah.

Well, and just even talking with you before, you know, earlier today, we're getting to know each other just a little bit today, and I'm already picking up on your story. Football, athletics, man, that was my background as well. And man, what have you taught me? You can't be weak. No way. You never show weakness. Right.

You'll be on the bench. Yeah. And there's so much that's just pressed deep into our DNA through not only what we're born into with our self-sufficiency of who we are spiritually, we're self-sufficient, we're independent. I mean, that's Adam and Eve.

Well, none of us want to be needy. Right. Right. And so we inherit that nature from Adam and Eve. We have that, what I call the Adamic residue in us of, I got this and I'll pursue my own glory and my own story.

I see what you got for me, God, but I want something better. And so we have that in us anyway. But then there's these things culturally, whether it be football, whether it be anything in life that produces and values and glorifies that, man, I can't show weakness. Now, here's the interesting piece.

And I don't want us to get off on a rabbit trail here, but I think it matters. I'm Gen X for however many years, over a decade, I invested in millennials. Now I have kids who are Gen Z and have teenagers in my home. Well, what's become incredibly attractive to millennials and then even more to Gen Z is vulnerability.

I knew you were going to say it. Weakness. Weakness. Talk about your weaknesses.

Show me. And for me, Gen X, I'm like, okay, I kind of get that. I'm an in-betweener, right? You know, boomers and what like, I probably am way more vulnerable than they want to be. But point is, now we're dealing with younger people who say, yes, be vulnerable. Yes, show weakness. But to what end?

That's the question that I ask younger people is, okay, why? I love it. Be vulnerable. Please be vulnerable.

Please be weak. So that what? And the answer to that from a biblical kingdom mindset is so that we can fall into the strength and the power of Christ. It's not just vulnerability for the sake of vulnerability. It's not just weakness for the sake of weakness. And it's not just, hey, I can't get it together, so I'm just going to wallow in my weakness and sin. But it's so that we fall into the strong arms of Christ so that He is the one who is powerful through us.

You know, it's interesting. You know this as well as anybody. As a pastor of a church, you set the vision and mission and core values, right? Right.

So I'm a founding pastor 30-some years ago. And when we were writing a core value around this very one, Ann probably doesn't even know, like, she wasn't in that meeting with, as we were debating, how do we, you know, words matter and words have power. So we got to say this right.

I'm not kidding. This is how the conversation went. Somebody said, we got to talk about this weakness thing that, you know, points to the strength of Christ.

OK, right. You know, so we write, here's what we wrote. We want to be a church where we recognize and reveal our weaknesses. And everybody's like, yeah, that's really good because so many places, you know, pretend and they only put up the thing. So not only are we going to reveal it, but you got to recognize it in yourself.

I am a sinner. And then we're going to not hide that. We're going to reveal that. And they're like, done. I'm like, I'm not kidding. I'm not like patting myself on the back.

I was like the guy like, wait, wait, wait. It's not done. Yeah. No, no, no. That's really good. I go, just what you just said.

I didn't use your words. But to what end? I'm like, that's only half the story. Right.

Yeah. Why are we going to recognize and reveal our weakness? So here's what it ended up being. We recognize and reveal our weakness to point to the power of God. Because it's got to be both.

I mean, even Janet Z would tell you, yeah, I don't want just the end of the story to be I'm weak and I can't do anything. I want it to be, yeah, but is there victory? Yeah, there is victory. It's not in me.

It's in Christ who lives in me. Right. Right. As I read through your book, I'm like, that's what rooted means that I'm rooted in radical dependence. And that dependence forces me to glorify and have power that I don't have, but that he has.

Here I am trying to tell you what your book's about. Yeah. No, no, no. But you're right.

I love it. Keep going. Yeah. Because it's radical dependence in who? Right. I mean, because we're dependent on what do we, oh, it's Jesus.

It's him. It's his strength. It's his power.

It's the Holy Spirit within us. We can be dependent on all kinds of things. I mean, this gets back into the classic idolatry and I talk about idolatry in the book, but there's all kinds of things we can be dependent on. And there's all kinds of things that our weaknesses can lead us to, independence. And so how we finish that sentence, radical dependence on what or who, and fill in that blank.

What's going to fill the blank? It makes all the difference in the world. Yeah. And I want to hear your thoughts on this because you're leading us somewhere that we got to answer. And for some reason, this came to my mind, my youngest son's in ministry. He was preaching with me at my church for seven years. And there'd be moments, you know, when you're sitting there like, oh my goodness, he just said something profound. You know, it's like, that's my kid? Really?

That came out of me? And I don't forget, Cody said one day in a sermon, he said, if Jesus is enough, I don't know him enough for him to be enough. In other words, I've got to know him better. And you were just talking about radical dependence on Jesus. I think often we get stuck because we don't know him well enough for him to be everything.

So explain that. Well, you know, I want to be careful to say, man, we're all in this journey, right? I mean, I feel that often, what Cody said. I mean, there are days where, more days than not, where I feel that, man, I was dependent on so many things other than Jesus today. And that's the beauty of a daily walk with Christ of repentance and faith. And his grace covering us every day and not presuming upon his kindness, but also knowing that his kindness leads to repentance.

And being able to just be honest about that and keep coming back to the strong arms of Christ. But when you say that, I think, OK, the very first thing that popped in my mind is I started walking with the Lord in college through the ministry of Crewe. And fairly early on, someone handed me the book, Knowing God by J.I.

Packer. Back then, I was still this way a little bit, but back then I was not a reader. So I think I read like the first two or three chapters. But what I read really changed me. You're listening to Dave and Anne Wilson with Jeff Norris on Family Life Today. We'll hear what it was in the little he read that changed him. But first, I wanted you to hear what one listener said about a recent Family Life Today episode.

She said it was refreshing and a gift. The conversation that the Wilsons had at the end of the podcast was so real and personal, and I needed that today. I pray other couples hear this today and let it bless their life like it has mine. That's great.

So awesome. When you support Family Life Today, you're blessing other families with that same encouragement. If that's exciting to you right now, you can donate securely at familylifetoday.com. And as our thanks, when you give today, we'll send you a copy of Michael and Melissa Kruger's book, Five Things to Pray for Your Spouse.

You can get your copy when you give at familylifetoday.com or by calling 800-358-6329. That's 1-800-F as in Family, L as in Life, and then the word Today. All right, now back to Dave and Anne with Jeff Norris and the important difference between knowing about and knowing. I'll never forget reading at the very beginning of that book where he talks about the difference between knowing about God and knowing God. And I think when we talk about dependence, we have to be very careful because we can know how to talk about dependence upon the Lord versus being dependent upon Him. But even then, OK, what does that mean? What does it mean to be dependent upon the Lord? It starts, in my opinion, and in my own experience, with creating habits that often outpace my heart. And what I mean by that is this.

I've never been a person who is just naturally prone to spiritual disciplines. And you're a pastor? What's happening? I know, I know. And I'm following a guy. Randy Pope is one of the most disciplined people I've ever known, ever.

If he puts his mind to it, he does it. And so, again, I'm walking into those shoes thinking, my goodness, who am I? But what I've learned over the years is that I kept waiting. One of my tendencies is I want my heart to be in it. And we wait to be dependent until our heart is in it. Does that make sense?

So what I'm getting at is this. I failed for so long to have good habits, good disciplines, because I thought, well, my heart's not there. And so I just wouldn't pray a whole lot because I want my heart to be, I want it to be genuine.

I didn't read the Word a whole lot at certain times in my walk with the Lord, because like, well, I just feel like I'm doing it out of duty. I want it to be delight. And of course, yes, please, God, make it delightful. Yes, Lord, I want it to be because I so desire it. But human reality, our life in the battle against sin and darkness in this world is that there's so many mornings where that's not there.

So what do we do? Well, a lot of times dependence flows out of the habits that we create, and then our heart catches up. So in the book, I call it the lagging heart syndrome or something like that. But I find my heart lagging a lot of times. And so I fail to depend upon the Lord because my heart's not in it. And I feel like God has shown me over the years, OK, if I can create habits, those habits oftentimes will outpace my heart, but my heart will catch up. And as my heart catches up, then I find myself very naturally living out a faith lifestyle that is very dependent upon the Lord.

Now, the habits aren't the focus. Jesus is the focus. But how are we taking those steps to say, OK, if I want to be dependent, I want to be in prayer. And so let's pray. I need to be in the Word. So let's get in the Word. Let's get in the Word individually.

Let's get in the Word corporately. Now, you guys have been around family life, crew, church. I thought you were saying we're old there. You guys have been around for a long time.

No, but you've been around crew, family life, church. I mean, these are things we've talked about for so long. So much so that, again, the younger generation feels probably at some level that we made it legalistic.

We made it about the quiet time. So I want to be careful with that. But I also feel like it might be time, generationally speaking, to come back around and push those things in again. To say you may not have liked how the older generation made it legalistic.

If some were guilty of that, I'm sure we were. But let's just stop and think about what are the means of grace that God has given us that draw us into a deeper dependent relationship upon Him. And it's those things. It's prayer. It's the Word. It's the gathered body. It's the means of grace. It's disciplines. And so those things help us be more and more dependent.

Yeah, and it's interesting if you think about our generation or any generation, especially the younger generation. If there's one thing they do understand, it's that if I want this body that I don't have right now, I've got to work for it. I mean, nutrition and exercise is at an all-time high, and they do understand.

We all do. Man, if I don't feel like working out, guess what? I'm going to work out anyway because I want that body and my heart's going to follow. Same thing. It's just what you're saying. It's no different spiritually. I've always said, it's not the size of your faith that matters. It's the size of your God.

But here's the thing. We don't know who God is. How do we get to know God? When you open His Word and look at it, even when you don't want to, you start to go, oh, my goodness, I forgot. This is who He is, and that's the kind of God I'm going to be radically dependent upon because I see Him in all His glory.

I forget when I'm not there and I'm not reading and I'm not looking, but I read stories. I'm like, I forgot that's who He is. Why would I settle for anything but radically be independent upon that God because I know who that God is? Amen.

And the more we get to know Him, the more we see how big He is, how majestic He is. And we end up, at least in spirit, maybe not literally, but maybe literally, on our faces like Isaiah. You know, woe is me. I'm a man of unclean lips. I'm a people.

I'm part of a people of unclean lips. And that's not just this beat yourself up condemnation thing going on with Isaiah. It's what happens when you're in the presence of God.

You see your inability and His ability and you go, I want more of Him, not me. Man, we all struggle with pride, all of us. It's part of that Adamic nature. But if we have people who are perpetually prideful in the church, then that gives me indication as to who's not been sitting in the presence of God. Because you show me a prideful Christian and I'll show you a Christian who's not sitting in the presence of God. Again, not making a condemning statement. I've seen that be true in my own life. Right, right.

Of just, man, when I'm prideful, oh, there's a connection here. I haven't been in the presence of God. I haven't been sitting with Him.

I mean, based on all we've talked about, I would think the next step for me and anyone else is get in the presence of God immediately. Yeah. Even when you don't feel like it. Right now, today.

Yeah. You've been listening to David Ann Wilson with Jeff Norris. His book is called Rooted, A Lifestyle of Radical Dependence. You can get a copy at FamilyLifeToday.com. If you know anyone who needs to hear today's conversation, be sure to share it from wherever you get your podcasts. And while you're there, a simple way you can help more families discover God's plan for marriage and families is by leaving a rating and review for Family Life Today. Tomorrow, we'll be back with Jeff Norris to talk about how refocusing on Jesus can be the cornerstone to building your children's faith. That's tomorrow. On behalf of David Ann Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.