Jennie Allen: Doing Life Together

Tell me a time when you felt really lonely.

Going through succession after 30 years leading a church. Interesting. That felt like I was walking down a tunnel alone. It was dark. You and my family was with me and I was alone. Where were your friends?

It was interesting. It didn't feel like they were there. I mean, my closest friends, you know, the couples that we do life with, we've done for 30 plus years. They were with me.

Everybody else was on the outside not understanding how hard it was. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson. And I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at familylifetoday.com or on our Family Life app. This is Family Life Today. I've always said the greatest gift in my life behind Jesus and you is the couples we've done life with for 30 years. Raised our kids together. I think I did all their kids' weddings, you know, officiated.

It was hard work, but it's the best gift we've ever done. So we're talking about that today, about find your people. And we sit here going, wow, we found our people. But Dave, so many people haven't and they're lonely.

Sometimes you really don't even know you're lonely till you hit something that, as you're saying, you've gone through something that you feel devastated and you don't even know how to get out and you don't have people. Yeah, so Jennie Allen is back again at Family Life Today to talk about find your people. Jennie, welcome back.

So good to be here. Now you're smiling because you found your people and you wrote a book that says, this is how God made us. We have to find our people, but we've talked for a couple of days now. It's really hard.

Well, let me ask you, Jennie, you're an author, you're a speaker, you're a mom, you're a wife. What has been the loneliest time for you? Moving to Dallas was a moment. I mean, we moved our whole family. We had a senior in high school at the time.

There was a lot of reasons for this move and it was hard, but he was on board. We had a sophomore in high school and then we had a middle schooler and an elementary school age kid. So I'm moving all of them into a new school district and it was just completely overwhelming. We had to start from scratch. And I remember just driving around and thinking, okay, am I going to ever have friends? Like the whole year, basically, we never got asked to do anything. We were all six together all the time. Like it was just, it was great for our family. We were all very bonded, but I was very isolated and lonely. Was it during COVID too?

No, praise God. It was before that. So we did make friends before COVID.

But I think that what you just said is really true for women. What we do, this is what I do at least, is I'm so concerned with my kids that I'll make sure they're all doing okay and I'll put myself aside. And then one day realize like, wait, I've been praying for their friends, yet I really haven't connected with very many people. Yeah, that whole first year really revolved around getting them set up and settled.

And so that was just a weird year. And I was meeting people, but you know, you don't feel known. And you're friend dating, right? You're meeting all these people. And we had been a part of a church plant in Austin. And so we had friends for 12 years there that we had done a lot of life with that knew us really well. So it was just starting over and it was scary and hard.

And we had to do all the awkward things you have to do to make friends. I feel like as I talk to women, there's two phases, two that can be really difficult. One is when you have young children and whether you're working and then you come home and you're just pouring into your kids or maybe you're a stay-at-home mom and your friends are working. And you're complaining because your husband's not helping enough.

Exactly. Your marriage is struggling because that's a really hard time in your life. Another hard stage that I'm talking to women my age, they're empty nesters. And whereas before their kids were in school, so they had all these people, their friends' parents, sporting events, all these different things, they're meeting people. Now they're not meeting as many people or they've moved into a new community and they don't know any people.

So let's kind of hit those two things a little bit. Let's talk to young moms because I know for me that was really, really hard. I felt like I was dying anyway. I was failing at every part of parenting and my marriage was struggling.

Yeah. No, that was our hard years for sure. I mean, that's a recent time I felt alone. In those years where my husband was a youth pastor, he was gone a lot of nights and a lot of days. You know, I was home with two toddlers and it was very, very isolating.

And I felt a lot of pressure to do that season well and I didn't have a lot of people helping me do it. One thing I talk about in the book a lot is that the idea of a village should be more than your two to five best friends. It should actually be a whole group of people that are helping you live life and raise kids and do all these seasons together. That village, they're not going to be your daily friends, but they're going to be in and out of your life. It's Sunday school teachers. It's friends that your kids play sports with. It's neighbors, right? It's all of these people that are just in our life anyway and might be different ages and life stages and all of that, but provide hopefully what village living has provided for people for generations, which is help, right?

And I think we all need it. And so to the mom that feels really isolated, I would say, first of all, just make friends with people that don't have kids. So singles, those were some of my best friends in that time. They would come over after I put my kids down and my husband was gone and we get to hang out.

And they were flexible enough to be able to drop by when my kids were napping or when they were asleep. And then I would say make friends with people that are older than you that will come over and say, hey, let me tell you, give you perspective that this season is not the end all be all. This is what's going to happen. And here's how I handled this. And here's what I did. And those people are necessary in your life.

We call them mentors or disciple makers sometimes, but whatever you call them, you just need people that have done this life stage before you. And then I would say get creative with your friends. So one thing I did with my friends when we had young kids was every Sunday we would cook for each other and we would deliver meals and see each other when we would deliver our meals to each other. That's so sweet. You did that every Sunday. Yeah, we would cook together.

Yeah. And we're about to start it again, actually, because our kids are now getting older and we don't have as many. When you've got six, it's kind of eat a lot. It's six people in your family. It's hard to cook for other families. But when your kids are little and toddlers, that's a great thing to do together where you make the meals for the week and you cook one big meal for all the families and then they cook one big meal for all the families.

It was so fun. And so just be creative. Another thing I've seen people do is meet at Costco, meet at Target, meet somewhere there's a playground, go to a park together, like push your strollers. I also want to say for those people that are just starting their life, do not be like Monica and Chandler on Friends where they have their twins and they move out to the suburbs. Like if you are having babies and you're thinking we need a yard, we need all these things, we need the perfect house, all that, be sure you're not leaving the communal system that you actually need to raise your kids. I would say be careful to take a job that pays more and leave your family.

Be careful in that season. Make choices that maybe bring you conveniences but take you away from people. I hope and believe people will, you know, certainly not everyone's going to go move because they read this book, but I do hope it brings into context, you know what, I need neighbors and I need people that know what's going on and that I can borrow things from and take walks with and be in each other's life. Which is so contrary because many times we make that move because of money, we have a better job status, kind of climbing the ladder, like of course we're going to do it. Well, I mean, I've literally sat with men who asked for my advice on a job change, often a city change date, and this, what you just said, Jennie, is way down on the priority list because I'll always be, it should be number one. They think it's not that important.

It's like five or six. If I only came on this show, if I only came to say this, the number one priority of your life should be the relationships in your life. There's nothing else that lasts forever. It's God and His people.

That's it. This is going to go into eternity with us and there's not a better investment of your life and you need it to live. We are just so arrogant in America that we think we can live without connection. But Jennie, the job that I'm being offered is double the salary. Take half the salary and live in a neighborhood with five friends that have less means than you, and that's the neighborhood they can afford. Make choices around this. This should be the guiding force of our life because it's the richest part of life, it's the most meaningful part of life, and it's the most essential part of life. So you've got that community. You're never leaving? You know, people are going to have to move. I mean, I hear a lot from military families, right?

And hopefully the principles in this book help you create it wherever you go. I just had to redo it, right? I had to do it in Dallas. And our move was to move closer to family. So she did do it.

I did. But certainly we left a lot of good friends and had to start over. But you can build it anywhere you go, certainly. But I think it should be at the top of the list of the choices we're making and why we're making them.

Sure, take the better job, but you better get busy right when you get there. And for military families, what I say is you can do all this. Like, be vulnerable, find accountability. Like, you can do all the things that I say to do in the book, but you just got to do it faster than other people because you're going to be off to the next place. And then you've got to pick the friends that you keep with you. I mentioned on a different show that I have a great group of friends approximate to me. They are the ones that pull me out of bed when I'm really, really down and they know I need to go out. And they will come over and get dressed and let's go. So I have those friends that can get in my face and are my day-to-day friends. But that other group serves a purpose, too. And they are deep, rich friends, too. And none of them live—well, one of them lives in Dallas, but most of them don't. And so we're doing and practicing depth long distance. You can do that, praise God, now through technology.

That's not enough. You also need someone that's in your day-to-day business in your life. I tell you what, one of our best friends that lived two blocks from us. They literally lived about 20 miles away.

They moved to be near us and we raised our kids together. Which I thought that was amazing that they did that. That's very radical. Everybody listening is like, that's crazy. Yeah, it was crazy. But tell me it wasn't the best thing they ever made.

It was incredible. We walked, my friend and I, we walked probably four days a week. Right. And this is a good thing, too. We ended up praying and fasting one day a week for each other's kids. And so we would walk, we'd go to this woods, we'd lay these rocks down, we'd build an altar for our kids, begging God on their behalf. We became sisters that was worth it. And he was my brother. And I mean, we've known each other decades.

And I'm not kidding, about five, six years ago, I don't know what it was, we get a text, our guys' group. Hey, anybody want our snowblower? And I'm like, why? Oh, we were moving. Like, what do you mean you're moving?

You tell us by asking if we want your snowblower. We all went crazy. Like, what do you mean you're moving? We were so mad. And they did. They moved to be near their daughters, which is awesome. And they wanted to be there with their grandkids. And we kind of had it out a little bit.

I did. Because they also said, you guys, you're gone all the time now. Yeah.

You are constantly on the road. We're traveling, doing marriage stuff. And their kids, two daughters, moved away. But they're listening right now, Rob and Michelle. And they're like- Because they listen all the time. It was so hard. Because it's everything you're saying.

They were our people. And we should. Right.

And everybody probably listening has heard this before. But God's got to be the center of your relational activity, or you're going to be a real drain on your friends. Exactly. That is very important.

And it's an important thing not to miss that principle. Because ultimately, people will die. People will move. Like, our hope is not ultimately in people. They do not meet all of our needs. No.

And they will certainly be transient. I'm just suggesting what you all just said, which is that was a radical thing. That shouldn't be radical. We should make choices like that all the time. And the church should be making choices like that all the time, that we choose to be near family. We choose to be near good friends.

We make that a priority in our lives. Will you be able to hang on to them forever? No. And will there be a sense of they won't ever meet all your needs? Absolutely.

Yeah. And that's why it's so precious about having godly friendships where you're all going, you know what? My needs are getting met with God. And I, out of obedience, want this to be part of my life in following Him.

And so, we're going to do that together. But we're not asking each other to be each other's end-all, be-all. Because we have a God that is the best of friends, right?

I mean, it says Jesus is the best of friends. And so, we get to walk with Him and have a relationship with Him and then that bleed into our relationship. And at the same time, even though they're in Atlanta, now we just have to work harder. It isn't like we're done.

You don't lose that. It's like, you've got to come down and see us. We're going to go see you. It's going to be work.

We're going to Zoom. It's harder work. They're not a couple blocks away. But you still have to do it because your people are your people. What I've realized with her being gone, with Michelle being gone, is she's my therapy person. Yes. You know? You're talking. You're sharing. You're kind of doing life with somebody.

And you're working out things as you're talking. And I realize like, oh, I'm not doing that as much anymore with someone and I need that because it helps me when I can say, Dave is really bugging me right now. It's why proximity is the first thing. Now, you don't have to have it, but man, didn't that make a special friendship because you were walking four times. So everybody listening that feels lonely, look at your neighbors. Like maybe you have them, but maybe you don't. And maybe you do need to make a shift. And I know that sounds radical and crazy, but people move for crazier reasons.

Let's just say that. And this is a priority. And so I think finding those people that it's easy to see in the years that your kids are young. And I told my daughter the other day they're talking about setting up their life and what's that going to look like? And I said, listen, pick a street. Like if y'all are going to be the first ones to have kids and then basically you make friends with all your neighbors and just start getting everybody's phone numbers because be the person that creates it.

Right. And so maybe that's your street. Maybe you stay exactly where you are, but you start like getting people's phone numbers and saying, hey, if you ever move, talk to me first and sell it to a friend.

Like there's ways you can do this without moving. But I do think proximity does matter. We've crawled out of a pandemic where you talk about loneliness and isolation was built into it.

I'm not saying it was only there because of the pandemic, but it heightened that because we had to pull into our little homes. We interviewed a pastor from Missouri, Don Everts, and he talked about chronic loneliness. And he had an interesting perspective. We'd love to play this clip and just let you respond.

So I want to know what you think of what Don had to say. In our research, it came out that a quarter of people in the United States that live alone live by themselves. A number of people say that no one comes over to their house ever. So in the medical field, they talk about there's a chronic loneliness is sweeping the country. And the interesting thing is in the medical literature, they prefer to call it depression. But the doctors are like, it's chronic loneliness.

Like you have no one in your life, and humans aren't meant to live that way. So just to knock on someone's door, just to say hi, in our current context, it does not take much to be heroic. Wow.

Yes. I'm so glad for people like Don that are doing that research. I interviewed a guy that probably has a similar focus on loneliness right now. It was absolutely depressing because this is the disease of our day, but we're not able to really quantify it or talk about it because we haven't made it an acceptable thing to struggle with. And I think people feel a lot of shame.

If you say depression, that's kind of more of something you can't control, but loneliness feels like something you could. And so there's a lot of shame around it. But also praise God, it's something that we can change, right? It's something that I believe right now my job is to trumpet this in the church, write to the church and say, hey, I don't think we've been doing this as well as we could and I think we could do it better. And then they start to go, you know what, I'm going to live differently. I'm going to start to know my neighbors. I'm going to start to have people over for dinner. I'm going to notice that single person that I've never noticed that's across the street that I don't even see very often and invite them over. One of my good friends, she's got to know the single person across the street that is in his 80s and he's very cranky and the street really doesn't like him because he's always complaining about things. And she was like, you know what, he needs God.

I'm going to love him and pursue him. She takes him flowers all the time, takes him food all the time, invited him over for his birthday and said, bring any of your friends you want. He brought one friend and the two of them sat there and told stories for a long time and he complained the whole time about things. And the friend was hitting him and saying like, stop complaining. Like this is so lovely.

I can't believe you got invited over here. Like you need to be nicer. And yet she is determined to make that man fall in love with their family and then hopefully fall in love with God, right? And we've just got to be people that notice. We have the answers. We have a relationship with God and we have hopefully local churches where there is some sense of connection, even if it's not a village-like existence. We have those connections to that potential. And so how do we invite people into it?

How do we pursue it and prioritize it in such a way that we look different? Because contagious Christianity begins with contagious community. When you see people loving each other well, and Jesus said that. That's not my words. That's his. He said, they will know you by your love for one another.

That's how everybody would know. You're one of mine. We're not great at that, you know, but I think we could get better.

And I think we're all craving it. And I hope what the pandemic has done has given us a distaste for that isolation. In the middle of this research, I pulled aside one of my friends that was moving from a group with roommates to an apartment by herself. And I, with tears, said, I do not know if that's the best idea. And I know some people listening live alone, and some people can't. That is just their lot right now. But I would challenge every presupposition to that, because I believe it is not good for man to be alone.

God said that. And so what does it look like to maybe take, you know, one of my friends, what she did as a single, she still wanted to live alone, but she moved into a little complex with other people that she knew. So she has a town home, and she got to know all her neighbors, and they have cookouts at night, and they all spend time in their little courtyard together. She made a choice about where she would live alone, that she wouldn't be alone. I just think we've got to make choices that we have to realize there is nothing worse for our health, and science has proven it.

I can show you the statistics. It's in the book that smoking, overeating, lack of exercise, none of that is more dangerous than loneliness. Loneliness is the worst thing for our health. And so if you just do it because it's not good for you, that matters. I mean, you said that I have a part of a book from John Orberg years ago.

They wrote, did you ever see this? He said, this is a study done, just what you said, people who had bad health habits, smoking, poor eating, obesity, alcohol, but strong social ties lived significantly longer than people who had great health habits or were isolated. In his commentary, in other words, it's better to eat Twinkies with good friends than to eat broccoli alone.

Another study in the Journal of American Medical Association, 276 volunteers were infected with a virus that produces the common cold. The study found that people with strong emotional connections did four times better fighting off illness than those who were more isolated. These people were less susceptible to colds, had less virus, produced significantly less mucus than relationally isolated subjects. He said, I'm not making this up.

They produced less mucus. That means it's literally true. Unfriendly people are snottier than friendly people. So anyway, I mean, it's just a cute way to say it, but here's what I'm hearing. You know, as you listen to themes that God brings into the church and the Christian community, you start to notice, you know, a few years ago, I'm like, wow, every worship song that I love is about identity right now. It's like who we are in Christ, which was beautiful.

And you notice another one, another one, sermons as I was preaching. I think this is something God's bringing to us right now. I hope so. Because we need it. We need it, and we're all aware we need it. We all did quarantine together and it didn't go well, right? And none of us are like, man, I want to go. Okay, some introverts are like, I want to go back to quarantine. But most of us are not actually thinking that that would be good for us to do. We're pretty aware like, gosh, that was not my healthiest moment in life.

And I think we're ready for this and we're craving it. One of the things you said, Jennie, was you and your friends, this is kind of beginning to get to know each other. You did your, I call it a timeline.

You told your life story in about 20 minutes. That's something that we've been doing too, and it's a great way to start. I did that with my friend Michelle. We would just go out to dinner and I would say, tell me your story. And there's something about revealing who you are and what you've gone through that makes you really see the person. And in that, like we've done that recently with a new group of friends where they just told their story. And as we listened, this is kind of a small group of couples. And as we listened, then what we did was we spoke life into them after they shared it.

And even empathize with their hard points. And in that timeline, in like 20 minutes, you're sharing your highs, but you're sharing your lows. And so to say like, wow, I can't imagine how hard that was for you to experience that.

And thanks for going deep and revealing kind of those pains and struggles and the hurts in your life. It was amazing, wasn't it, Dave? The guys did it too. Yeah, but it's scary.

Yes. A lot of people hear that and they're like, well, I'm not going there, you know. That's David Ann Wilson with Jenny Allen on Family Life Today. We'll hear about what it is we really want from other people, whether we know it or not. But first, in such a connected world, life can feel isolating, right?

What do we do about it? Jenny Allen was on a mission to search for that same answer and wrote all her insights in a new book called Find Your People. And when you give today at Family Life, we'll send you a copy of Jenny's book as our thanks. Your gift helps others pursue the relationships that matter most.

You can give online at familylifetoday.com or by calling 800-358-6329. That's 1-800-F as in family, L as in life, and then the word today. All right, now back to David Ann's conversation with Jenny Allen and what we actually want from other people. The science says that what we want from people, we actually don't want answers, we don't want to be fixed.

That is not what we want. We want to be seen, soothed, and safe. And that right there is excellent marriage advice. If you're listening and you're like, we have a hard marriage.

If you just make your spouse feel seen, soothed, and safe, that goes so far. Most people think what they want and what they want to give is answers. And we want to fix people. We want to, when someone says something hard, we're like, but dah, dah, dah.

We're immediately giving the positive. And I've learned from counseling, someone is sharing something with me. Not because they need me to fix it, but they're probably sharing it with me because they don't want to be alone in it. And so when we can be with people in difficulty, it's why the Bible says mourn with those who mourn, right? There's a gift in just being with someone that is in their struggles and in their disappointments.

I mean, one of the best pieces of advice I've ever gotten and will give till I die is when someone shares something with you, to do what your friend did. To listen, to say what you hear back, and to say, I'm so sorry. Hey, men.

Just that. Men, are you listening right now? Because I've blown that some way times. I do it too, Dave. I try to fix. I mean, I one time, Jennie, we've said this here before, and we probably won't even keep this on the broadcast. But a long time, and I'll keep it really short.

She was, you know, kids were little, sharing with me how hard it was. I had a bad day. I literally go upstairs. Wait, wait, wait. I have to tell Jennie.

So I'm sharing all that. Dave goes, I'll be right back. He goes upstairs. He comes down with a little piece of paper, and I thought, he wrote me a love note. He's thankful. Yes, he's going to share all the things he loves.

Look, you guys already know. And so it's numbered one to ten, and I'm thinking, oh, these are the ten reasons why I'm a good mom. And so I pick it up, and I look at him like, thank you.

And I say, I read it out loud. Number one, and I look at him, get more organized. Oh, dude, I'm going to throw this one.

And number two is use your time more wisely. That's enough. That's enough. I said, what is this? You don't need to read the rest.

There were ten of those. And so, you know what I did? I rip it up like, you think this? And he goes, I prayed about this. I said, you did not pray about this.

This is from Satan. And I ripped it up and threw it in his face. But, I mean, again, 40 years ago, what did I ask her? I'm like, that's not what you want. She told me just what you said. I want to be seen, soothed.

What was the third one? Safe. Safe. Yeah, she didn't use those words, but that's exactly what I'm like, really? What's that look like? I think we missed that. The book I wrote before this was called Get Out of Your Head, and I did all this research. Which was really great.

Oh, thanks. I did all this research on the brain. And our brains by God were built this way. We actually were built not to need information. We were built needing connection.

It was why this was the next book that I had to write. Because when I did all the work on the brain, I realized this is the greatest healing tool we have. This is the greatest gift we have on earth, right? It's God first, but on earth, it's God through people. And so, I think that is the way he built us was to require each other, to belong to each other. That is how he built us. And so, it is actually built into our brains.

Guys that need some science behind it. Because I know what you're thinking, because I think it too. How does that help? Your brain decompresses. All the little pathways reopen when you feel understood and seen and known. And there's something in your brain that begins to heal. And so, that's why for trauma, you go to therapy. Because not so that you can get fixed and hear advice, but so that you can process that story and feel in a safe environment and feel soothed and seen and understood. That is why therapy works. It's a relationship where you get to talk about the hurts that you've had.

So, it's worth it, guys, that are out there diminishing this plan. You've been listening to Dave and Anne Wilson with Jennie Allen on Family Life Today. Ever wonder about where that line is between what's constructive criticism and what's actually tearing others down? Well, Anne Wilson's words feel so relatable to me. She says, how many times have I used my words to tear Dave down and destroy him thinking I was helping him and doing good? When all the time I had this power of influence to be able to speak life into him.

That's a good quote. Could your relationship use a shift towards using words to respect and cherish each other? Well, check out our marriage studies at familylifetoday.com and use the code 25OFF to save today and beef up your communication so your marriage becomes more life giving to both of you. Now, tomorrow, Dave and Anne Wilson will be joined in the studio with Sho Baraka and his wife Patrice to talk about dealing with children who have unexpected special needs. On behalf of Dave and Anne Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.