Kevin DeYoung: Time to Step Up

All right, so here's a question. I think I know your answer, but when I am leading you and our family well spiritually, how does that make you feel? Amazing. Well, maybe we should define.

I was just going to say, a better question is, what's that look like? When I'm leading you spiritually and leading the boys, again, they're grown men now, but what was I doing that you said, yes, I love this? When you're initiating prayer. Like, I love it if you lead us in prayer as a family. Which was every day, every hour.

That's what I did. But I loved that. I loved when you were reading something in the scriptures and you're like, oh, this is so good.

Like, look at this. I felt like, oh yeah, we're one spiritually. When I'd hear you talking to the boys about spiritual matters, and not in an awkward kind of way, but just everyday life kind of, hey, have you thought about this Bible verse when you're talking about something they're struggling with? And that gives me security, gives me hope, gives me joy, and it makes me feel like, man, we're together in this. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most.

I'm Ann Wilson. And I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at familylifetoday.com or on our Family Life app. This is Family Life Today. I feel like almost every marriage asks the question I just asked. What's it look like to have Jesus at the center of your marriage? What's it look like for a husband? I just talked about leadership.

What's it look like for a wife? I think it's a really confusing question. I don't think a lot of men who are followers of Christ or women would know exactly, like I literally wasn't sure exactly how you're going to answer what it looked like for me to lead spiritually. Everyone has a different idea and expectation of what leading spiritually should be. And my idea of you leading spiritually at first may have been a little... We can talk about that later.

You're laughing because you put a burden on me that I could never reach. You mean when I wanted you to be like Dennis Rainey in all aspects? And you told me I wasn't Dennis Rainey.

Dennis Rainey wouldn't do that. And you wanted a family altar in our house every night. Anyway, let's talk about that later.

But we've got Kevin DeYoung with us in the studio in Orlando. Welcome to Family Life Today, Kevin. It is great to be with you. I'm just looking forward to hearing about all your problems. I saw you over there smiling like, okay.

And you've been on Family Life Today many times. Yeah, right. And you and your wife Tricia are here without nine kids.

Yeah, that's all of them. We don't have any more that we're without. We're without nine kids.

In Orlando. And your oldest is 17. 18. 18. Oldest is 18. Youngest is one about every two years.

Yeah, do the math. I got to ask you, are you done or are there more coming? Only God knows. Yes, I hope we're done. I mean, every child's a blessing, but I think I'm feeling old. And you're feeling free right now. I know.

This is great. We could be doing anything. We are states away from the children.

Of course, we love them, but sometimes you love them far away. Yeah. And I can't imagine how busy your life is. I mean, you're a pastor in North Carolina now at Christ's Covenant Church in Matthews.

And also you do work with RTS and seminary work. You've written how many books? I don't know.

12, 14, 15, something. Isn't that funny when you ask an author, they don't even know. We're like, oh, we've written two. You've written multiple. When they say I don't know, you know that you've written a lot.

And they're all, you're a fabulous writer and we love what you write. And you've written a book recently called Men and Women in the Church, a short biblical practical introduction, which is really comprehensive beyond just marriage. But there's this couple chapters in there where you talk about men and women and roles in marriage, which is where we're going to go today. So let's talk about that.

Great. Where would you start? Well, you could start a Genesis. A good place to start is in the beginning.

Someone once said all good theology starts in Genesis. You can start there at the beginning of the Bible because you see how God made this pair. And from the very beginning, he made them to be a complement.

Complement with an E. You also should complement, you know, say nice things. But they each for each other. They're a pair. So that when God said it's not good for the man to be alone, it wasn't just companionship. That's part of it. It wasn't just he was lonely. God could have given him, you know, 100 golden retrievers or could have given him a literal man cave with buddies to hang out in. But that's not who he made. He made a woman for the man because uniquely the man and Adam and Eve would come together in this covenant of marriage and they would fulfill the creation mandate, be fruitful, multiply, have dominion on the earth. And everything starts there in Genesis with God's design from the very beginning to create a man and a woman.

And just that is sort of controversial today. Yeah, actually a man, actually a woman and that those two for each other. So that in marriage, when we come together, it's not just the union of husband and wife.

It isn't a profound way a reunion because she was she was taken from the side of man. And when you're joined together in marriage and one flesh union, that's coming together. God's design for a husband and a wife. And so it starts there. And of course, we Jesus reinforces that. And then there's lots in the Bible. And Ephesians five is probably where we want to land at some point because that's one of the typical marriage sermons. And that's where Paul gives the most detailed instruction about marriage. And it's still relevant 2000 years later. And even as we talk about that, Kevin, you talk about in one of your chapters of how a husband is to lead. He's to serve and he's to care. And you got that from Ephesians five. Yeah. So I think Ephesians five is in this part of scripture that sometimes scholars called the household codes.

It's Paul just giving. I'm going to talk about marriage. I'm going to talk about kids. And that context is slaves and masters.

We would say, you know, employers, employees. But he's giving instructions. And part of what he's doing is he's trying to address men and women at their unique area of fallenness. So that's why I said it starts in Genesis because, you see, what was the man supposed to do? The man was supposed to be a loving, sacrificial leader. He was the one who got the command in the garden when Eve sinned. Isn't it interesting that even though Eve was the one who sinned, Paul in Romans five says sin actually came into the world through Adam because God held Adam responsible for Eve's sin. And so you see from the beginning that the man was supposed to be this leader. He was supposed to care for and protect his wife.

But what do we see in Genesis? He's he's blaming his wife. God, you made this woman. And so I would say men have a tendency because of sin to either be dictators or doormats in marriage. Either, you know, cruel, harsh, even abusive, authoritarian, or I think just as often the problem, maybe even more often in a lot of Christian homes. The wife is off doing the Bible studies. The wife is really on fire for Jesus. The wife wants to pray and the husband, when it comes spiritually, is a doormat. And what Paul is saying here in Ephesians is, okay, men, I know what your weakness is. God knows what your weakness is.

You're prone to get this wrong. So let me tell you what you need to do. And you need to love your wife as Christ loves the church. And that means leading. And one of the things that I'm sure I got this, maybe John Piper first said this, but I say in the book, part of leading is the husband is the one who says the word let's. Oh, that's good.

Yeah. Now, of course, the wife can. These are we're not talking about rigid, you know, definitions, but general postures that the husband is the one who say, honey, let's pray. Let's go to church. Let's read the Bible and not just spiritual, but let's go on a date. I'll get a I'll get a sitter.

I'll fly you to Orlando and we'll leave all the kids behind. Let's go do that. And let's talk about this. We're having a big conflict. Let's sit down. Let's work through this.

Let's pray together. That's the husband leading as Adam was meant to lead. And sadly, because of sin, how we often don't know how to lead. And so often, you know, that simple phrase, I read that in your book.

I thought, wow, that is so simple. And yet that's often where I was passive, you know, where I was the doormat. In your words, I was not being the one to initiate. That's what you long for. I'm just thinking that right there, that could be one of the biggest takeaways I feel like for men. I feel bad for you guys because when you hear you need to be the spiritual leader of the home. I think a lot of men are thinking, what does that mean? And you simplified it. It's taking the initiative with the word, let's.

I like that. Let's go to church. And I think where I failed, and I blame this all on Ann because I'm just like Adam. You know, what are you talking to me for, God?

Talk to Apple Breath over here. But it's like, you know, I kept thinking she doesn't want the way I lead. She wants it to be like Dennis or somebody else. And really what she was longing for is just lead, just initiate. And when I started to do that, like even another way to say let's is I'll be the first to forgive. I'll be the first to step towards you in a conflict rather than step away.

I'll be the first to say I'm sorry. That's directly from our producer Jim. Yeah, I mean, that was what Jim said about leadership. And I thought that a guy can get his head around. It's like I was intimidated many times because I felt like Ann was saying, leadership spiritually in our home looks like this. Every Sunday night after you preach four services at church and you're exhausted, come home and then lead us in a family altar.

And I was always like, oh, that's what it looks like. I'm so bad at that. Rather than I'm not wired that way, but I can lead. And if I lead like you just said, I am leading in a powerful spiritual way.

But I didn't feel like I was, but I was. Yeah, and it's really important for men hearing this to realize, yeah, you're going to be wired different ways. And I think you're right, a lot of men get really intimidated. And it's strange because they might be really successful at work.

They might be great athletes. And yet when it comes to this, they see my wife is doing her devotions in the morning and I'm hit or miss and she goes to umpteen Bible studies and I'm just honestly thinking about coming home and watching football. And they don't feel like they know how to do it. So some of it is the men, you know, you do need to step up. I always say the central message, like in my book, is not women sit down, but men stand up. Yes, there are roles, there are certain things that men do and women don't do.

But men need to stand up, but they need to realize that God's not expecting that you have a seminary degree and that you have 30 minute sessions. I mean, you come to our house, it is chaos. I can't imagine. No, I'm not kidding.

I wish I were better. I wish I could say we had great family devotions every time, or even that we had family devotions every time. You know, when we sit around the table, that is a big win for us with everybody from ages 1 to 18 coming and going. And so a lot of it is taking the initiative to pray with my kids, to pray with my wife, to move toward. I mean, it's one of the things that the Lord brings back to mind.

You know, you get convicted, I'm sure by your own sermons, Dave, or if not, then your wife will convict you for you. Exactly. But those moments of conflict, and we all have them.

And my wife and I, we're not yellers, we're frost, ice, cold. And of course, if she were here, she would be kind about it. But yeah, they're usually my fault. But everything in me as a sinner says, she's at fault. I'm going to wait. Maybe I'll budge once she budges a little bit. Once she thaws, I'll thaw. But I'm waiting because I know what she did wrong.

Maybe I did something, but I'm waiting for her. And then the Lord reminds me, let's. And part of being the leader, part of loving. I mean, good thing Christ didn't wait for the church. Good thing Christ didn't say to his bride, clean yourself up, and then I'll die for you. And so if Christ did that for us, how much more husbands should we take that initiative? Even on those rare occasions where, okay, yeah, you're 10% and she's 90% of the fault, if those have ever happened. Still, you make the initiative.

And at least, you know, I have blessed with a wonderful wife. If I would take that first step to say, I can see how I did some things that I shouldn't and said some things. You know, it's amazing how just taking that first half step can start to thaw what had been a very icy situation. As opposed to the times when I start by saying, I want you to know that I forgive you. That usually doesn't go as well.

For one, that's not a good one. Well, I would say this, just to follow up on that, because when I've done what Kevin, what you just said, and it sounds like Trish responds to that, and does too. In 41 years of marriage, I can't think of two or three times that when I am gentle, but strong in leadership and saying less, I don't think hardly ever you've said no. You just melt.

You're like, oh. In a sense, you don't say it out loud, but you're like, thanks for leading. Thanks for being the spiritual leader I need. And I often, as you said earlier, found myself leading stronger outside the home. I felt I knew what to do.

I was better at it. I mean, our listeners have heard this story, and I won't go into details, but she did say to me one night on a Sunday night, I wish the man that led our church lived in this house. I mean, that's how it came out, and I'm like, what are you talking about? And again, I need to hear it, because she's like, man, I watched you this morning at church, you're strong, you're praying, you're casting vision. You come home, and you're just tired, and you don't bring that energy. And of course, I responded really maturely. I'm like, you don't know how good you have it. I'm like, I'm the best man I know.

And then the next day, I'm like, she was right. And of all the disciples that I have a part of being an impactful person in, the most important are right here. And I'm not leading them in a way that I'm called to as a husband. It's clear, as you said in your book, in Ephesians 5, this is my call.

I am called the leader. So in some sense, it meant for me, step up. Just like you said, Kevin, it's like, I can do this. It isn't like impossible.

It's like, okay, it doesn't require masters of divinity. It just requires, let's open the Word together, honey. Okay, let's talk about this. Because as a listener, women are thinking, yes, I'm longing for my husband to say let's.

Any time. I think as women, we often feel the burden. Like, we're teaching our kids some spiritual truths. That I feel a but's coming. We're saying, let's go to church to our kids, and we're hoping our husband's coming.

I talk to so many women that are longing for that. So, help us as women to know, do we say to our husbands, hey, I listen to this podcast, radio broadcast, and if you would just start saying let's, should we even approach this or do we just pray about it with our husbands when we feel like he's not doing anything? You're listening to Dave and Anne Wilson with Kevin DeYoung on Family Life Today.

We'll hear Kevin's response in just a minute. But first, at Family Life, we believe God's design for marriage and family isn't some old-fashioned, fun-killing rule book, but that it's a good, true, and beautiful design. And if you're passionate about more people catching that kind of vision for family, would you consider partnering with Family Life Today? All this week, with your donation of any amount, we want to send you Kevin DeYoung's book, Men and Women in the Church. That's our thanks to you when you give this week at FamilyLifeToday.com or when you call with your donation at 800-358-6329.

That's 800-F as in Family, L as in Life, and then the word Today. All right, now back to Dave and Anne's conversation with Kevin DeYoung and how a wife can encourage her husband to be a better leader. I think there is a place to say something. You have 1 Peter that you can win over your husband's without a word, but it's not an absolute you never can bring something to your husband's attention. If Trisha says something in the heat of the moment, it'd be nice if you helped put the kids to bed. That's maybe true, but it's hard to receive versus a calmer time. Hey, it would be really great if when you're home, you could set the phone aside, because she's had to say that to me. And so here's maybe some very practical advice for women listening. That moment when you feel most strongly that you want to say something like this, wait for another moment, because probably in that moment, you're maybe frustrated and he's not doing what you want him to do right there, and that's going to be hard. So wait till the next morning when you're out of that particular situation maybe, and certainly there's a place to say, honey, I love you and you know that I respect you.

It's so important. We don't like to admit this, Dave, but how important is that our wives respect us? And that's why Paul says wives respect your husbands, because the wife has a certain sin predilection too, and it's to usurp her husband's leadership and do not respect him. So I think if a wife leads that conversation in a way that says, you know, I love you, I respect you, I want to follow you, it puts the husband in a mind to, okay, I know that something hard is coming, but I'll listen. And it goes in the other way, because I can imagine some husbands listening and saying, well, that's great, Dave, it sounds like Ian's wonderful and Kevin and Tricia, that's really great that they are responsive when you say let's, but I've tried that and my wife doesn't like it, and she rebuffs that leadership. And I would say to men, that doesn't mean you stop leading. There may be all sorts of reasons, maybe her dad, maybe her experiences, maybe all sorts of reasons why that could be hard for her to receive, but I've found sometimes guys say, well, I tried to do the leadership thing and my wife didn't want me to do it, so I guess I'm off the hook for doing that. No, you're not, and even sometimes when the wife may say, I'm not looking for that sort of leadership, that's where all the more you need to do it gently, humbly, winsomely, but that doesn't mean you abdicate your responsibility.

You need to continue to try to initiate that conversation. She may not even realize, oh, I don't want him to lead, but he's still leading because that's what you need to do. Yeah, and I think even in your chapter we talked about what the husband role is.

Anne mentioned it. You mentioned leadership, care, and serve. That's right.

I like those two words because in some sense I think when our wife sees us serving them as a leader, it warms our heart, softens our heart to a place where they do want to respond. Am I right? Yes. Let me answer that for both of you.

Yes. Yeah, and that's where to even hear lead, we can immediately think, ah, family devotions, family altar, getting them to church, that's an important part, but I bet my wife would say, well, you're a pastor and you're good, you make sure we go to church, but I need you to care for me and show leadership in helping the kids get to bath at night and making sure that you're sitting down with the seven-year-old and reading with him. And those are other ways of exercising care and service.

And I think this is just about universally true. Any of us listening to this, I know Dave would agree, we're likely not going to out serve our wives. I don't know any people more generally harder working than wives and moms out there, so they serve so much. So we need to realize as they're serving in all of those ways, some of which come natural, some of which don't, that we need to see our role as husbands.

Not only here I am, I just came home from work, I'm ready to start throwing orders around. Well, that's not probably going to go well. I would say, eh. Yeah, you need to show. It's amazing when you have a warmth and a humor, whatever personality God has given you. One of the things I love to see is when my wife said, Alexa, play whatever, and the music comes on and she's singing and the kids are singing and they're bopping around and I feel like not only is that a gift from the Lord, but that's the sort of flourishing I want. It doesn't always show itself in, well, they all got dressed up and went to church.

Of course we want that. But if I'm exercising the kind of service, care, and leadership, you're going to enter and there's a happy home where people, and they don't even, can't even put their finger on it, but they would feel, I hope, that this is a place where we're protected, where we're taken care of, where someone's leadership and authority, authority has become such a bad word because it's abused so often, but God has authority. Jesus in the Great Commission said, all authority has been given to me.

Authority is a good thing given by God to be used for good purposes. And when we exercise that lovingly, sacrificially in the home, it is a real gift to our wife and to our children. Yeah, I was thinking, Kevin, as you were sharing that, I was thinking of the phrase we've all heard, I think, it's happy wife, happy life. And in some ways we've often said that the wife determines the atmosphere, the environment of the home. But as you were saying that, Kevin, I thought it's not always true because if a man, if the husband is leading, serving, and caring and lovingly, sacrificially laying down his life for his bride, as Christ did for the church, that creates a, what you just, I saw in my mind's eye nine kids and you and Tricia dance around the house.

I don't know what it would look like in North Carolina. But I saw this joy. And I thought that often is determined by the wife and mom, but it doesn't always have to be that way. If I'm loving her, if you feel served by me, if my boys felt that, cared for the way God's called me as a husband to do, that's going to create a joy in the home that I have a big part of being a catalytic part of than just you. It isn't just happy wife, happy life. It's like happy wives become happy because their man lives out his God-given role. I don't know. That's just what just hit me. It's like, man, as we step up to do that, and again, we've said it.

I think clearly it isn't just some biblical family altar thing. It could be beautiful. Maybe that's who you're good at. But if you do it in a different way and you say, let's open the word, let's pray, I just want to challenge a man right now that's listening and thinking, I can't do this. Yes, you can. You really can.

Just start small and watch what God does. That's right. And if you say, well, you don't know how bad our marriage is, you're right, we don't. But we're Christians. God brings dead things to life. And so you have to believe, and you guys do marriage conferences and written marriage books.

And so you know this. I'm sure you hear amazing testimonies. But as a pastor and counseling or meeting with people, almost no matter what the issue is, if the husband and wife are both willing to take even a tiny step toward each other, if they're just willing to say, I do want to get better. I want God to help us. No matter where they are, almost without fail, the Lord's going to lead them to make some steps. Whereas if their problems are small but one or both of them say, I don't really want this help, you can give them all the greatest books.

They could live in Dennis Raney's basement. And it still won't because God needs to be at work in their hearts. One of the greatest gifts we can give to our kids and through our kids really to society and to our churches is for our kids to see a mom and dad that love each other. And we don't even realize what we're doing. All of our kids are growing up with a sense of normal. And security.

That's right. And I am so blessed. We talk about privilege is a big word today. There's lots of different ways to be privileged. But all the sociological research tells us that at a human level, the biggest privilege you can have in this life is to be born into a home with your mom and dad who stay together and love each other and raise you.

And we know there's listeners who that wasn't your story and God can still redeem that story. But when husbands love their wives like that and kids see that, it gives them a sense. I remember my dad would always try to steal a kiss from my mom in the kitchen and I still do that and do the things that, you know, Tricia rolls her eyes and stop and the kids are, ew, gross. And yet I look back as a kid and there was something strangely comforting like these weird old people I call my parents.

They still like each other and laugh and dad is trying to, you know, kiss mom. And, you know, that makes a big difference in just creating a sense of normal and joy in the home. You've been listening to David and Anne's conversation with Kevin DeYoung on Family Life Today. His book is called Men and Women in the Church and we'll send you a copy when you give any amount today at familylifetoday.com. If you know anyone who needs to hear today's conversation, be sure to share it from wherever you get your podcasts. And while you're there, it'd really help us out if you'd rate and review us. Now tomorrow, Dave and Anne will continue their conversation with Kevin DeYoung as they unpack that crazy controversial word we find in the Bible called submission. You won't want to miss that one tomorrow. On behalf of Dave and Anne Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. . Family Life Today is a production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.