David Robbins: A Leader at Home: Where Do I start?

I think a lot of us as men have a hard time leaning into really being the leader we want to be because we get paralyzed. We get these expectations on ourselves or maybe a spouse or somebody else or a comparison to another guy that just is hyper disciplined. I'm not hyper categories in a box, checklists everywhere. I'm not that extra categorized organized person. Sometimes if you're not that hyper checklist dad or man, you end up getting paralyzed and subconsciously you think you got to get your stuff all together in order to lead the family and point them to Jesus. But that's not the gospel. If I'm capable of having all my stuff together and being perfect, then Jesus wouldn't have had to come to take that place on the cross for us.

But it's out of that place, the good news of Jesus that presupposes I don't bring much to the table and I need His grace desperately that allows me to go, OK, Lord, how do I and the way I'm uniquely wired step into that in the way I'm wired to do so? Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson and I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at familylifetoday.com or on our Family Life app. This is Family Life Today. All right, honey, let's talk about one of the major disappointments in our marriage.

I don't even know what that is. No, how you were so disappointed in me in an area of our marriage that you told me many times. Oh, you mean the one where I compared you to Dennis Raney?

Over and over again, at least that's how I remember it. Spiritual leadership. I wasn't the spiritual leader in our home that Dennis was in his home, at least according to Ann Wilson. I thought I was pretty good.

Yeah, I'm sorry for that. I was pretty bad because I had this picture of what a godly spiritual leader would do in their home. And so this is the bad part that we can do in marriage is I had expectations of what you should do. And then when you didn't measure up, I'm like, eh.

You would say Dennis wouldn't do it that way or Dennis would do it this way. I don't think I said that. No, but I mean, there was this image even in my mind, and I think a lot of husbands and a lot of dads, and I'm sure wives and moms struggle with the same thing. Yeah, exactly. But it's like I felt like I wasn't measuring up to some standard that I didn't even know what it looked like.

And your vision was a little bit different than my vision. And so today, let's talk about what would spiritual direction look like in a home, in a marriage, in parenting? And so we've got the guy in the studio that's going to answer this question for us.

I'm excited. Yeah, we've got David Robbins, the president of Family Life, coming in here. I thought, Dave, you brought me in specifically. I'm a person that really knows what comparison to Dennis Rainey feels like. I was going to say, you're sitting in the same seat that he sat in. Have you felt that? Sure, I have.

Absolutely. And there's really a phantom that begins to get on your shoulder and I think can get on a lot of men's shoulder as they think about leading the home. But certainly I've experienced that in leading family life where I've had to have strong mentors and members on our board like Crawford Lorette saying, look, God called you.

Ride the horse God gave you. You fill the role, not the shoes. I've needed those moments of people speaking truth because certainly I felt it. I mean that right there, Crawford's words are what Ann and I and I had to figure out over 40 plus years of marriage that I'm not Dennis.

And that's a good thing. You know, and you're not Dennis. I mean, and again, Dennis would, if he could walk in right now, he'd say, I wasn't as perfect as any of you think. You know, it was very exaggerated, but we're supposed to be who we are. Well, I'm going to say I was totally guilty of having not only expectations, but I made assumptions too that you would act a certain way, do certain things. And this is the bad part that I feel like I'm guilty of.

I thought you were less spiritual because it didn't look a certain way. And I think it's easy to do that in a marriage when we have expectations of what a spouse should do and they don't measure up, we're disappointed. Yeah, and you know, we sort of joked earlier, but I felt that. I mean, every once in a while Ann would say it, but I just felt like I was not meeting her expectations.

So David, talk about that. I mean, you've been married how many years? Almost 20 years. It's like coming up.

It's here. It's like a big deal. It's a big deal. We had plans to go back overseas for our anniversary and with COVID. We're going to pause them, but we'll do what we need to do at some point. It'll be fun. And how many kids?

We have four kids, 15 to five. So you're busy. You were at the orthodontist this morning.

That's right. We pushed back this time. Thank you guys for flexing because she needed the next step.

I didn't know it would take 45 minutes instead of 30. You know, flexing. Meg's away right now. She'd love to be here for this conversation. That's for sure. She's away helping her mom in Memphis.

So here I am by myself running solo. You're going to be doing ibuprofen tonight for her because I've had braces. They are sore, to say the least. But anyway, talk about spiritual leadership, spiritual direction in your home as a husband and as a dad. Have you felt like a weight like I felt? Like I think a lot of men and women feel. Yeah, I think a lot of us as men have a hard time leaning into really being the leader we want to be because we get paralyzed.

We get these expectations on ourselves or maybe a spouse or somebody else or a comparison to another guy that just is hyper disciplined. I'm not hyper categories in a box, checks list everywhere. I'm not that extra categorized organized person.

No, wait, wait, wait. You seem like you are. Don't you think that Ann is? He's better than me at that. I know that.

I think he is. And you have the appearance of being all that, David, but I do know you're artistic. That's right. So there's this creative side. And there's a fact that in the home, Meg's personality carries part of the weight, which she is hyper adaptable. It makes no list ever unless it's me on a Sunday afternoon going, we got to get a big sticky note out and make a list of our chores for the kids so they can come check it off or it'll never get done.

So it comes in every now and then. But our personality together makes our home really adaptable. But out of that, sometimes if you're not that hyper checklist dad or man, you end up getting paralyzed. And subconsciously, you think you've got to get your stuff all together in order to lead the family and point them to Jesus.

But that's not the gospel at all. Well, let me ask you this. Have you ever felt from Meg any pressure like I felt from Ann? Sure.

I mean, just this month there's, you know, hey, we got two and a half years left with our 15 year old, you know, and I see breakfast with Ford every Thursday on your calendar, but we're skipping a lot these days. And that's an appropriate challenge. She's seeking to set me up to lead. Yet you better believe my initial response is to kind of shrink back. And I have to go through my own process of, OK, that's that's not the gospel. If I'm capable of having all my stuff together and being perfect, then Jesus wouldn't had to come to take that place on the cross for us.

But it's out of that place. The good news of Jesus that presupposes I don't bring much to the table and I need his grace desperately, that allows me to go, OK, Lord, yeah, there's some truth in what Meg's saying. And how do I and the way I'm uniquely wired, I begin to lead Ford.

We got two and a half years left with him. Let's step into that in the way I'm wired to do so. So when you think about spiritual leadership and leading Ford or leading Meg, leading your home, how do you approach it? What, you know, what comes to your mind?

Because there's a there's a sense of it's weighty. You know, one of the things we teach at the weekend to remember is First Corinthians 11. I'll read it to you. We teach this, but I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ. And that's no problem. Like, yes, I bow to that. I submit to that. The head of the wife is her husband and the head of Christ is God. So there's this aspect that we carry this weight of, so I'm the head of my wife, which and again, there's interpretations that that could mean source, you know, that we come from Christ, our wives come from man, or it could mean that we are supposed to lead. And there's a sense that we carry this. Oh, my goodness, it's on me to lead her and to lead our sons. Not that it isn't on them.

It's on them as well. But there's that sense that there needs to be some leadership in the home. We're called by God to do that. So again, how would you say it looks to you to be the leader? I mean, we can get really practical in just a minute or and we can all share the way it looks for each one of us differently since we're wired differently. But first and foremost, and I don't mean to oversimplify it, but I really believe with all my heart, soul, mind that this is where it roots in and has to stay is that it roots in our own encounter with Jesus as a man.

Like, that's it. If we're going to love our wife and our and our kids and serve them sacrificially like Christ has has loved his church and loved us, then not only does that mean dying daily, I mean, really, that's that's the call. We get to die to ourselves daily. That's ultimately part of leading. But we actually have to keep following love and Jesus over and over again.

And as he relentlessly pursues us out of experiencing that, we can relentlessly pursue and lead our our wives and our and our kids and our family. And there's no secret formulas. There's no hidden tactics. There's sure there's good suggestions and tips. And those are tangible and they meet us in seasons, which are helpful because we all know adult kids are different than toddlers.

And there's real practical tips we need. Ultimately, though, it is about our own encounter with Jesus. And I remember learning this kind of in my face and God bringing me to my knees when we were in Italy serving together. Meg and I had been married for three years and it was the first place where my world just kind of collapsed like I was just languishing when Meg was flourishing in this culture that was very different. She was adaptable and go with the flow. I was pretty uptight, especially back then. I didn't know the language.

I was languishing. And I'm like, well, how do I even lead in this, you know, our home in this space? And and it boiled down to David, it's about you not just being a believer of God, but a lover of God, because lovers are going to show and tell the things they love.

I love sports, in particular, my alma mater, Ole Miss sports. I can't help but pass that down and talk about we were just talking about it because it's in me and I love it and I can't help but experience it and want other people to experience it. And in the same way, is that my current experience with Jesus? Not just that I'm a believer of him, but that I'm right now in a present tense way, experiencing him and able to pass that on.

And so sometimes it's kind of simple. I think what leadership looks like is to what extent am I experiencing Jesus in a present tense, ongoing way? Because when we do, we become lovers, not just believers of Jesus, and we pass it on and we pass it on because we're able to talk about it as fresh bread. Let me just hit this because I love what you're saying, David.

And every woman that's a listener is saying yes, yes, and amen. I long for this in my husband, but my husband's not there. You know, maybe he's chasing his career.

Maybe he isn't interested in the church thing and the God thing. And she's longing for this. So guys, just for a practical second, how do we encourage our husbands? Because let's just be honest, as women, we've all put the book there. We've all said, I'm going to send this podcast or, you know, make sure my husband listens to this. Is that motivating?

You know, what's our best move? You're listening to David Ann Wilson with Family Life President David Robbins on Family Life Today. We're going to hear both Dave and David's answers to Ann's question in just a minute. But first, if this topic has brought about deeper thoughts about fatherhood, or if any of the topics here on Family Life Today have touched you, would you consider joining in our mission for godly homes? We can only continue to bring content like today's topic because of our dedicated financial partners.

Now with that said, Father's Day is coming up this weekend, but you already knew that, right? And we wanted to send you a copy of Brian Laritza's book called The Dad Difference, the four most important gifts you can give your kids. It's our gift to you when you make a donation of any amount this week to support the work of Family Life Today. You can give securely online at familylifetoday.com or you can give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329.

That could be a one-time gift or a recurring monthly gift. Again, the number is 800-F as in family, L as in life, and then the word today. All right, now back to Dave Wilson answering Anne's question about what a wife can do to encourage her husband to lead spiritually. Well, Dave is looking at me to answer that one. Anne was looking at you, so I just joined her.

There's a lot of answers. There really are, but I think what I experienced in our marriage, and I've said this many times here, we wrote about it in Vertical Marriage, was when you critiqued me and said, I wish you were more of this or I wish you'd do more of this or do less of this, it demotivated me. You were thinking it was motivating me. I found myself pulling back rather than jumping forward. And then when you started affirming who I was and where I was and thanking me, I wanted to run faster. It was like, oh, and again, that didn't happen in one day.

It took months and maybe even years. But as you began, as we phrased it, you stopped booing me and started cheering me. Something happened in the soul of me that I think happens in a lot of men is when they feel respected and affirmed, they do better. Some men are really motivated by critique.

My buddy Rob would be like, just tell me what to do and I'll do it. I'm not that way, and a lot of men are like, man, when you affirm what I do, it's like I want to do better. And so when I heard you start to say, you are a good man, I remember you saying, you're a good leader of this home. And at first I was like, no, I'm not. You've never told me that before. Actually, you've told me the opposite. But I started hearing you say that consistently, and you weren't just lying. You were actually looking for things I was doing well. I was like, oh, I'm a good leader? I'm going to be a better leader. Again, so that helped me motivate me. But what David said I think is the key is it's got to be an overflow.

Because every guy is like me, it's like, tell me what to do. I don't think I'm really good at leading my family in the Bible, so how do I do that? And that's the wrong question. That's where we go. The question is, man, if you fall in love with Jesus, you'll be a leader everywhere you go. You'll be overflowing that in the office. If you're a pastor, whatever, you'll be overflowing that in the family room.

It's just going to be. And we wrote in our book, No Perfect Parents, the way to lead teenagers spiritually is model it. When they see dad and mom on fire as a 15, 16-year-old, it's hard to deny that. You can have your little Bible studies, do whatever you want, but if you're living it and they see you in the Word or praying, it's not like I'm doing this to show them it is an overflow of who I am. That's motivating.

So any guy listening is thinking, man, I'm not measuring up. I said, get on your knees, surrender, and say, Jesus, do a work in me. And by the way, you've got to do the work. You've got to get in the gym and you've got to pump the weights. If you want to see your body physically change, you do work.

If you want to see spiritual work, same thing. I'm going to get in there and start doing the workouts. God's going to meet you and start changing you. That's going to flow into your family room.

That's good. Well, the first thing that came to my mind was a peculiar place because when I heard your question, I go, ultimately, a strong man has a soft heart for the things of God, but a woman cannot create a soft heart in a man. And as you went there, you were like, okay, that cultivated a space. You weren't that needy, but yet to get those words from your wife actually cultivated a safe space for you to go, okay, Lord, I'm going to start depending upon you for more.

I can do this. In the same way, I just think about Meg when she has had to come and desire more leadership from me, when there's seasons and times where it's not everything she wants it to be. I know one of the first things she does is just start praying for the Holy Spirit to do work that she can't do. And sometimes I'm so hardened, she has to really come in with some stronger words. And I've needed her stronger words at times. And they're our place for strong words.

Yet I know and I trust in her that she, before there's those strong words that she comes to me with, she has gone to the Lord over and over, beseeching Him for the Holy Spirit to till the ground in my life that's hard. You know, I came across this quote this morning. I have not seen this quote in forever, but it kind of relates. It's by Dan Allender. And I think that for a man that, especially a man that a woman's wanting to see more leadership out of, you've got to help create safe spaces for him to dive into his weakness. Because here's the quote.

This is by Dan Allender. To the degree that you face and name and deal with your failures and wounds, to that same extent you will create an environment around you conducive to growing and retaining deep family and work relationships, i.e. spiritual leadership. But here's the thing. The strange paradox is to the degree you attempt to hide or dissemble your weakness, the more you will need to control, the more insecure you'll become, and the more rigidity you will impose. And so many times as men, that's what we end up doing. We get insecure and then we just go for what feels easy, a checklist. We at least feel good about ourselves. But it's not actually cultivating spiritual leadership in a home that really honors, that really cherishes, that really leads.

A woman has a huge role in providing the safety for a man to go to those areas where he feels weakness that's required for him to go to and experience Jesus in in order to lead from strength out of. I think we as women have so much influence in our homes and over our husbands, especially raising three sons and being married, Dave, for like 40 years. I've realized guys are insecure, especially in this area. Why don't you just tell the world, honey? Go ahead.

That does sound terrible. You're not talking about guys. You're talking about your guys.

No, women are insecure, too. And so I think we all cover that up. As you're saying, David, we can mask it.

We can make it look like something else. And so in our marriage, when we can go to that in an empathetic way of just being a safe place, as you're saying, to give our guys like, man, even saying to your husband tonight, when you hear spiritual leadership to become the spiritual leader, that to me, that would be intimidating to me. Do you feel that? Is that intimidating to you? Just to ask the question would be a great place.

You know what? I love what you just did there with that question, because it's such an easy step and it provides a measure of safety and obviously every relationship is at a different place. A man may not be ready to respond well to that yet, but it's a great place to start because what you did was not come in with a punch of accountability. You really gave, okay, I want access into your heart.

Like, what does it feel like? The difference in between accountability, which is good and necessary, but then access. What a woman really wants, what their kids really want from the man is a man who will give them access to their heart and the places Jesus is meeting them in their heart. In the same way, it's not just being authentic and transparent about things in the past and that kind of defines transparency. You're willing to be honest about things in the past, but what about what's vulnerable? The things that are currently happening, the things that don't have a bow tied up on it. That's where a man a lot of times needs a woman to enter into that space and hold it with him because that vulnerability is sometimes and leads to the insecurity that prevents him and paralyzes him from stepping out and leading.

So I love what you did there because you held the space and the tension and get access into his heart. Yeah, and one of the things I think I know I missed and I think a lot of men miss, I think women actually get it better than we do as men. I know I'm making generalities there, but is we think we need to be strong. We think leadership is strength. And even Dan Allender's quote, and I think Paul's words in the New Testament, are our strength is when we're weak. And I think our wives long for us to be, like you said, David, vulnerable and weak.

And we think, no, I don't want to go there. That's not leadership. Actually, it really is when you're willing, even as Dan says, if you haven't dealt with your stuff, you hide it and you cover it up. But when you're vulnerable enough before God and your wife and even maybe your kids to say, I struggle and I'm weak and I've got some things in my life that I'm managing, but it's hard. And I've done that a couple times with my sons, looked them in the eye and said, I got to tell you where I'm struggling. And, you know, I didn't even realize it at the moment, but that was leading.

And they were like, drawn in. Wow, Dad's a man like me. He's being that vulnerable, but he's got a Christ who's meeting him there.

I'm going to go on this journey with him. And then your wife is going the same place. And so I would say that to the dad or the husband, listen, man, put away the strong man. And not that you aren't strong in Christ because you are, but allow the weakness to be revealed in your home to your wife, maybe in a vulnerable moment, maybe even to your sons or daughters. Trust me, that's spiritual leadership.

They will follow that to the ends of the age. Yeah, his power is made perfect in our weakness. I mean, that's the verse you're quoting and that's how it ends. And there's that reality of we usher in God's power and his glory when we go into that sacred space and allow him to fill it.

It's not just exposing it to expose it. It's going to that place together, knowing you're secure enough and strong enough to be able to let it be known. And then his power comes in, real strength comes in, and our home experiences the power of Jesus today in our lives. That's good stuff.

I remember, I should grab the guitar and sing it, but I don't remember what year it was, but a song had this line in it. If you see me on my knees, it's not because I'm weak, I'm getting stronger. And it's that picture, David, you just said, the best picture tonight of spiritual leadership in your home is get on your knees and ask God for his strength.

He'll meet you right there and he'll make you the leader he wants you to be. That's David Ann Wilson with the president of Family Life, David Robbins, on Family Life Today. If you know anyone who needs to hear today's conversation, you can share it from wherever you get your podcasts. And while you're there, it'd really help us out if you'd rate and review us. Tomorrow, Dave and Ann are going to be joined again by Family Life president David Robbins, and they're going to be talking about when it comes to leadership in the home, it's not always a strength.

Sometimes it's a weakness. That's tomorrow. We hope you'll join us. On behalf of David Ann Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.