Gary Thomas: A Lifelong Love

Hey, real quick before we get to Dave and Ann, this is Meg Robbins, and my husband David is the president of Family Life. And we just want to tell you all how thankful we are for you, each of you who listen in and follow along with us at Family Life.

Yeah, one of the things we love the most is getting to hear directly, whether it's in person or someone emailing Family Life or sending in a prayer request. Some of the life change that's happening because of Family Life Today and other things Family Life does. And Steven and Rachel are a couple that were really struggling in their marriage. They told us how overwhelmed the pressures of life were just kind of crumbling them. They began to listen to Family Life Today and it was giving them some glimpses of hope. The way they described it is when one of them was doing well, the other one wasn't, but they were sticking with it. And they heard about Family Life's Weekend to Remember on one of the programs and decided to go. And they shared how they really doubted whether their marriage could really be restored. But God met them that weekend and they kept diving in, kept growing, kept listening to Family Life Today.

And now they love telling other people about it and passing it on. We love hearing stories of people who are experiencing isolation in their lives, growing toward oneness, and as they're growing toward oneness, impacting others. I have so been there with what Steven and Rachel experienced, just finding a lifeline through different Family Life Today episodes or conferences that have come alongside us and helped us so much when we desperately needed it. And we just want to tell each of you who are listening about an opportunity to join us this month specifically.

Any gift that you give will be matched by some very generous donors with Family Life who, if you give, your gift will be doubled. So we just want to invite you to join in that with us. And if you want to hear more about that, that's coming up later on. Or you can go to familylifetoday.com. A lot of couples that I talk with as a pastor, they've broken up not because there's been some big sin or something they can't overcome.

It's far more pedantic. They're just bored with each other. And what that tells us is that we were made for more than each other. We were made for a mission, and that mission is the kingdom of God. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.

And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us at familylifetoday.com or on our Family Life app. This is Family Life Today. All right, so here's the question that all the world wants to know. We've been married 41 years.

What's the secret to lifelong marriage? Jesus. Of course, it's Jesus.

And I know it's Jesus, and I wouldn't underestimate that. What is it? Hard work. Hard work? I think. Like, we've put a lot of hard work into our marriage and laughter. And laughter. Yeah.

What would you say? Yeah, we're laughing right now. I mean, I don't know. I want to ask Gary Thomas, who's in the studio with us today, because he wrote a book called A Lifelong Love. So there must be some secret that Gary knows. Gary, welcome back to Family Life Today. Thank you.

It's always fun to talk with you, too. Yeah, and obviously the subtitle is Discovering How Intimacy with God Breathes Passion into Your Marriage. Now, you've written over 20 books. One of the classics was Sacred Marriage. It feels like, as I read this, there was some sacred marriage in here.

But as you think about that question, what is the secret? A lifelong love really focuses on how, just what it says, that intimacy with God is what breathes passion into our marriage. So I would answer your question by saying the magnificent obsession. Yeah, I know you opened the book with that term. That's good.

What is that? I'm referring to Matthew 633, and I'm stealing the phrase from a guy who's been dead 400 years ago, so he can't sing for it. He's referring to Matthew 633, when Jesus said, seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness. And then there's this promise, and all these things will be added unto you as well. There are two things I found that really breathe new intimacy and passion into a lifelong marriage. The first one is purpose. A lot of couples that I talk with as a pastor, they've broken up not because there's been some big sin or something they can't overcome.

It's far more pedantic. They're just bored with each other. They know each other's stories. They know each other's patterns.

There's nothing new to discover. And they're just bored, and they say, I just don't want to be bored the rest of my life. And what that tells us is that we were made for more than each other. We were made for more than marriage. And if we put marriage at the center of this is what will fulfill me, this is what will complete me, this is what will excite me, we're going to suffocate our marriage by asking too much of it, because we weren't made just to be married. We were made for a mission, and that mission is the kingdom of God.

See, I was kind of right. Jesus. Well, yeah, I mean, and you said intimacy with God, and I think the question a lot of couples ask is, okay, so what does that really look like? I know when we wrote Vertical Marriage, we had the incredible privilege to go on the Today Show, and they didn't tell us what they're going to ask. So we're like walking on there. We sit down.

We don't know the three hosts. We're like, where are they going to go? First question Craig Melvin asked, which I thought was a genius question. He goes, hey, so your book's all about you almost lost your marriage at year 10, and you pray a little prayer of repentance. You bring God in. Everything works out. Is that what it means to bring Jesus in your marriage? I thought, that's a great question, because a lot of people think, yeah, I pray a little prayer. I go to church. Poof.

Everything works. How would you define intimacy with God in a marriage? Two things. First is mission and purpose.

Seeking first the kingdom of God means, number one, I don't wake up thinking about my own agenda. What will make me comfortable? What will make me happy?

What will make me rich? What will make me feel important? It's my life is yours. You've given me your spirit. You've given me the promise of eternity. I have fellowship with you. What can I do to build your kingdom on earth? How do I get more people to know about you?

How do I get more people to surrender about you? And what that does, Dave, is it draws two people together in a way unlike anything else. I often tell guys, you know, if you want to get your wife to respect you, offer yourself to be used by the Lord because God will honor that. And then he fills you with his spirit and you get credit. When we became empty nesters, Lisa started joining me for a lot of my premarital sessions, and I've been doing these for a while. And we met with this couple for the first time.

And you know how sometimes, man, God is just moving. You're meeting with a couple and you know it's all God. I was getting connections and I got her background. I got his background, what they needed to work on. We walk away and Lisa was like, wow, you're really good at this.

And I'm not. I mean, sometimes, you know, I feel like I'm not even helping a couple at all. It's just one of those times where the spirit was very present, moving mightily. And so I say, just offer yourselves to God and it gives you new reasons to appreciate each other. You discover new things about each other.

And women, if you feel like your husband looks down on you, but when he sees you stepping out in courageous faith and he sees God using you to encourage others or to teach others to bless others, then he sees a whole new side of you. That's the best way to fight off boredom is not to live for yourself. Selfishness is boring. That's why Hollywood marriages and famous marriages don't make it because you can have all the money in the world. You still get bored with selfishness. The most beautiful people in the world that get to spend five hours a day training for the next movie still have their marriages break up because even beauty gets boring. Wealth gets boring because we were made to have eternal purpose.

And if we're not living for eternal purposes, there's this natural restlessness in our soul. I was made for more than this. The tragic error is that then we said, well, I married the wrong person.

If I married someone else, then I would have this exciting life or someone who was more fascinating. But the reality is none of us are so fascinating that we can keep somebody enthralled for 50 or 60 years. Five or six dates. Yeah. Five or six years. That's a challenge.

50 or 60. No way. So the first big thing is having a mission, that we were made for a mission. We should be married for a mission. It is totally wrong to think, let's be single for Jesus, but married for ourselves. Matthew 633 is given to marrieds and singles. I think we should get married if we think that's what helps us serve Jesus more. Not to serve Jesus less. Well, Gary, you guys have been married 37 years.

Yeah. And so what does that look like practically? You know, just how do you live that out? You and Lisa together.

What's that look like over the years? Well, a number of times, vocationally, we've made the decision what's best for our gifts in the kingdom of God. And I might be leaving a home that we love or a city we love or a situation we love. And Lisa has been marvelous at this. She goes, God has this call on her lives.

What's the best place for this? She's a Northwest girl. We grew up in the Pacific Northwest. We lived in Bellingham, Washington, which was just like 20 miles below the Canadian border.

I could literally do an 18-mile run crossing streets twice, just running along the bay, going by some water. I mean, it was beautiful. And then I got a call from a church in Houston, Texas, which Lisa refers to not also affectionately as Cement City, where it really is cement everywhere and it's flat and there are no hills. But she's thinking, Gary, I really think that God can use you here.

We want to go. And so that's sort of been her attitude. Now, I've seen it reverse. I've seen husbands do this for their wives. I know one woman had a great ministry and her husband was what kept it going. He ran her book table.

He did all the administration. Sometimes couples work together. There's a story in here of a couple that they had been married just three or four years and they just were bored. And they said, is this all it is? And then they were asked to take charge of a youth group that was a troublesome youth group. It drove them to their knees.

And I love their things. We had a reason to pray. We were praying for our survival. And so by focusing on something outside of their marriage, they saw a new side of each other and it drew them together.

I love what she said. When we failed, at least it was our failure. And when we succeeded, at least it was our success. But this joint ministry really did draw them together and build intimacy in their marriage.

That's so interesting because we've talked to so many couples who are empty nesters and their kids are out of the house. And now they're looking at each other thinking, now what? Now what do we do? They're bored. They don't have a mission. We raised the kids. That was our mission.

It was totally inward focused and they really are bored. They're like, well, okay, I guess we're done. We've really sensed that. And it's interesting, when we first got married, 41 years ago, six months in, Ann said to me, marrying you is the biggest mistake of my life. That was part of our early stuff in our vertical marriage book.

But we didn't even realize what happened. We go to our first ministry. We're on staff with Athletes in Action, the University of Nebraska.

I'm the chaplain of the sports teams. The first guy I met on the football team, who is a believer, was married. He's a senior, married. He says to me, hey, there's several guys on the team that are married. Could you and Ann lead a marriage Bible study? I looked at him because he didn't know the back story that my wife has just said to me, I don't want to be married to you.

I just looked at him like, what? A marriage Bible study? You want us to marry? And he goes, yeah, could you guys do that? And I'm thinking, we're the last couple you want leading this thing because we're not doing well.

But what did I say? Yeah, we'll do it. So Ann and I lead this marriage Bible study and we didn't realize it at the moment what happened. Mission. We knew God had given us a mission.

And I don't know if any of their marriages got better. Ours was sort of saved. When you said that Gary, I'm like, that was year one and we've been doing it ever since. But that outward focus to do what God's called us to do, seek first the kingdom, literally transformed us. And you're saying that's one of the keys or the ingredients to a lifelong?

Absolutely. Because God's kingdom never ends. And there's always new, exciting things to go forward. The work is never done.

And so you have a reason to get out of bed. And so I would just say to the couples listening, maybe you're that business couple. One of you is a business person.

How do you say, OK, here's the community. How do we help them understand that life isn't just about making money? It's about making disciples. It's about worshiping God, not not mammon, so to speak.

So husband and wife are working together. How do we use this vocation to build God's kingdom? Maybe you're the sports couple and one of you is a coach or something. It's not just about winning games. It's about worshiping God. Or you're the musical couple. It's not just about making music.

It's about celebrating the creator of music or the arts community. Whatever gifts or influence or natural affinity you have as a couple, instead of just saying, what do we want out of this day? Saying, how can God take us, this unique couple, unique gift, a unique platform, and use it to start building God's kingdom instead of our own?

Life is different. Again, we want to get away from this single for God and married for ourselves. And we should get married for God.

What if your spouse isn't cooperating? Like, I'm not into this mission. Yeah, maybe they're not even a believer. Can we do that alone or do we just kind of make do? Well, part of your mission that keeps you there, according to Paul, is to represent God and to model a Christ-like spirit hoping to bring them into the kingdom.

So you do have a solo mission. And that's a sad reality. I mean, that happens somewhat. But I think your mission before God is still what gives you commitment to your marriage, even if your spouse doesn't share it. I'm not pretending it's the same.

It's not. There's going to be a loneliness there. But Paul does say, but here's why I want you to hang in there. Because maybe your example and your faith will lead that person to the Lord.

But I still think there's a power in it, too. Even if your spouse isn't a believer, to have that conversation of saying, I just see the gifts that you have are pretty magnificent. And I'm wondering, to have this conversation, I'm wondering what it would look like for us to be a team together, to impact our world together, to make a positive influence together. Like, what are we passionate about? What are we good at?

I think those are just fun conversations to have, too. And if your spouse isn't a believer, they still have gifts. They still have passions.

They still have strengths. And how could you pair those, then, with your strengths and your love for God? So we've talked about the first part of this obsession, the kingdom of God.

What's the other part? Well, seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness. Now, Jesus isn't talking about marriage, but it's amazing how practical it is with marriage. Because again, as a pastor, most people come in, there's a character issue that's assaulting their marriage. And so if I'm seeking first His righteousness, I'm dying to the things that destroy most marriages.

Anger, rage, malice, slander, filthy language, lying. Those are all things listed in Colossians 3, 8. And if I put on the righteousness of Christ, we could say Colossians 3, 12. Compassion, kindness, gentleness, humility, patience, and love.

Those things build a marriage. So I'm rejecting the things that push a woman or a man away, and I'm building the things that make them want to be around me. And so by pursuing righteousness, I'm creating the kind of person that somebody actually wants to be around. So how do you pursue, put on righteousness? I think a lot of listeners are like, I want that.

How do I access that? You've been listening to Dave and Anne Wilson with Gary Thomas on Family Life today. We'll get back to that conversation in just a minute. But first, as you can imagine, we've had to make some tough choices again this year, along with everybody else. And we're hoping that through the generosity of people just like you, we can continue to reach your home and all the homes that need help and hope for the relationships that matter most. Now, this is an especially unique and critical time of year to donate because we've had some friends of the ministry come alongside us and offer to double your monthly gifts for 12 months, up to $300,000 when you become a monthly partner right now. So that means if you give $25 a month, the impact is actually $50 a month. If you give $50, it becomes $75.

No, I'm just kidding. It becomes $100. You get the idea. And on top of that, when you give this month, as our thanks to you, we'll send you a bundle of resources, including two books. One, Not Part of the Plan by Kristen Clark and Bethany Beale, and A Lifelong Love by Gary Thomas, who we're hearing from today. So you get to become a monthly partner, have your gift doubled for a year, impact families for the glory of Jesus, and get a bundle of books. Good on top of good on top of good. You can give right now at familylifetoday.com or by giving us a call at 1-800-358-6329.

That's 1-800-F as in family, L as in life, and then the word today. All right, now back to Dave and Anne with Gary Thomas and how we can pursue righteousness in marriage. First step, I think, is humility to recognize that we have areas to grow. What I find is that we're so often hyper aware of where our spouse needs to grow and just blind to where we do.

If you're not humble, you don't think you need to grow. And let me just, if I could have a gentle challenge, if every time you have a conversation with your spouse, you think, this situation will be fixed when you get your act together, when you stop doing this and you start doing that. It's the classic case of Jesus saying you've got a log in your eye trying to take the speck out of your brothers. James 3, 2 says we all stumble in many ways. So the Bible tells me I stumble in many ways and every person listening to this broadcast stumbles in many ways. If you're not aware of how you stumble, that parable of Jesus was written and said just for you. So in humility, recognize, okay, what areas? And then to accept it.

You know, I had a funny, it wasn't a funny episode, it was kind of sad. Right after 9-11, this is going back when people started traveling again. You know, they shut down the airports for days.

It was just different. And then in the early days of TSA, I mean, it was practically a strip search and there were long lines at the airport. And it's one thing when you're traveling for vacation in the summer, but you guys do this too. When you're traveling every weekend, just about, I just am being hassled and my bags are being torn apart.

I'm being delayed. I was just getting a surly spirit. It just was not honoring to God. So one of the first times Lisa started traveling with me, we get through TSA and she says, Carrie, this isn't you.

Like what? Well, you're impatient, you're cynical, you're being negative and critical. I mean, that's just not who you are.

And she was being my mirror. And I realized I wasn't there to represent Jesus. I wasn't praying, God, is there someone I can encourage in the line? It was just, just get me through here.

I just want to get done. Stop bugging me. Don't hassle me. And instead of being defensive, I could say, wow.

Okay, thank you. What you're saying is true. That's not who I want to be. I want to represent Jesus everywhere I am, not just except in the TSA line. And so it's just trying to take a step back when your spouse says that because what the magnificent obsession also represents. Lisa isn't just my wife. She's my sister in Christ. She's filled with the Holy Spirit. She has the wisdom of God's word as my sister. She can encourage me.

She can challenge me. She can even confront me at times because our relationship as brother and sister in Christ is eternal in a way that our marriage isn't. Now, my wife hates it when I say that. She goes, we have to be married in heaven. I'm just going by what Jesus says.

My wife says the same thing. And I'm hoping there's some aspect that is. But when you wrote about how you were praying and you felt like God told you that Lisa is your sister, I don't know how powerful it was for you. But when I read it, it felt like this powerful moment for you. Well, it's really the third element of the magnificent obsession where it's about worship, where, yeah, I was not being the best of husbands.

And it's probably being charitable. And I was praying. And God challenged me. Gary, Lisa isn't just your wife. She's my daughter.

And I expect you to treat her accordingly. And he's just applying 1 John 3.1, behold, how great a love God has given us. We should be called the children of God. And I claim that as a single man. That's my identity. I'm God's son. And for God to say, yeah, and Lisa's my daughter.

And suddenly, everything was, especially when I got kids. Because if you want to get on my good side, it's easy. Be good to one of my kids. Praise them. Make them laugh. Be a true and loyal friend.

And I love you. If you want to get on my bad side, be mean to one of my kids. You know, shame them. Make them cry.

Make them feel like dirt. My blood pressure will go up if I even hear your name. Because I'd much rather you mess with me than one of my kids. And when I realized that my wife is God's daughter, she's my sister in Christ, and that God feels about my wife just as I feel about my own daughters with a holy and pure passion, everything about my marriage changed. Yeah, and one of the things that took me years, I think, to understand is what you're talking about is your wife or your spouse can be your mirror.

In some ways, I think God gives a spouse to us to sharpen us to become like Christ. And so they see things. They say things.

I used to hate it. When Anne would call out something, almost like your example with TSA, where I wasn't representing the righteousness of Christ, I would get resentful. And I started to realize, no, that's a gift from God. He wants me to become like his son. And my wife is the gift, the greatest gift, because she sees everything. And so how do we respond when our wife or our husband calls something out that is hard for us to hear?

How do we respond? Because we want to be like Christ, but we're often not living that way. A life-changing reorientation for me, Dave, with this was recognizing who's my hero.

If Jesus is my hero, I want to live every day for people to worship him, to acknowledge him, submit to him, and celebrate him. If I'm my hero and somebody says, there's a chink in my armor, I would say, my hair's out of place. People can't see me. You and I have to say so.

We don't have any hairs out of place. Then I'm going to take offense. But if Jesus is my hero and somebody says, you're not reflecting Jesus perfectly. Here's a way you can do it more. It's sort of like a coach giving you a tip. You know, you're holding the golf club too tight.

Loosen up your grip and you're going to have a better swing. Okay. If this helps me make Jesus look better to the world, then I want to stop having this surly attitude or this critical attitude or this arrogant attitude. The problem is for most of us, we're our own heroes and Jesus sets us free from that. It really does set you free when you realize, okay, it's not based on my righteousness.

It's his. So I can admit I've got some real weaknesses, but Jesus has taken care of them and I don't want to argue about me. Let's worship him. Let's talk about how great he is, not how bad I am. And so I don't have to defend myself.

I just re-point people back to him. So if you live by the magnificent obsession, that is your obsession. Look at the glory of God, the wonder of his plan, the beauty of who he is. And so marriage comes about serving him together, becoming more like him together. And worshiping him together.

As I hear that term, I love it. Like the magnificent obsession with God. And I think back to all the times that we've struggled in our relationship and marriage.

It's when I've taken my eyes off of that magnificent obsession of God and what I've done. And I'm just going to confess, and I've said this before, but I started looking at Dave, trying to get him to meet my needs for him to become my obsession. But what I was doing was I was seeing all the faults, all the ways that he was not living up to my expectations or what I felt like God was calling him to do. And really what I started doing is putting my eyes on myself and the needs that weren't being met.

And I really think we can do this in a marriage. And so to ask that question today, where is your obsession? Is it with God?

Is it with your eyes on him that he is your magnificent obsession? I think that's a good question that we need to ask on a regular basis. and then the word today. If you know anyone who needs to hear conversations like the one you heard today, we'd love it if you'd tell them about this station. You can also share today's episode from wherever you get your podcasts.

And while you're there, it'd really help us out if you'd rate and review us. Now tomorrow, Dave and Ann Wilson are going to be talking again with Gary Thomas about how when we get frustrated in our marriages, which all of us do, we can use that frustration to pull us closer together with our spouse instead of pushing them away. That's coming up tomorrow. On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a production of Family Life, a crew ministry, helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.