Justin & Lindsey Holcomb: Need-to-Know Truth for Kids about Body Image

I have no problem talking about, like, complimenting them. If I had a son, I'd, hey, you're a handsome young man or you're a beautiful girl. If that's the first thing and the main thing, that's the problem.

I see it on social media all the time. My beautiful wife, my beautiful kids, that's great. But for the idea that the only adjective most little girls and boys here is handsome or beautiful.

Yeah, that's heartbreaking. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson. And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us at familylifetoday.com or on our Family Life app.

This is Family Life Today. So do you remember how old you were when you first started disliking your body? What makes you think I dislike my body? I know. I've heard it a thousand times.

What are you talking about? I mean, I've heard you talk about, I was shocked when you first got married when you started talking about it. But I mean, I'm guessing it started when you were a little girl. Yeah, I was probably nine or ten. And I used to share a room with my older sister.

She's six years older. And I didn't know it at the time, but she was bulimic. And so she has a lot of sexual abuse in her background, as I do. But she would binge eat. And so we'd have these feasts in the middle of the night on our bed. And I thought it was amazing because we were spending time together and I loved it not knowing that she was going to get rid of her food by vomiting it all up. But I ate it all with her. And so I started gaining weight.

But I also remember this. I remember thinking, I can't wait to turn into Barbie because I thought every little girl grows up and she becomes Barbie. And so I kept waiting and waiting and waiting. And I stayed Barbie's little sister, Skipper, who's little and short and kind of square. And I thought, what happened? And I remember when we started dating, I didn't know who Skipper was. You kept saying I'm Skipper.

I'm like, who's Skipper? And I thought you were gorgeous. I still do. And I was shocked that you didn't think that. You would get mad at me.

I responded really well. I get mad. And then I realized, oh, my goodness, you really do think and you don't like your body. But that really shaped me. And I think it shapes a lot of us because a lot of us grow up not liking our bodies. And as parents, that's a difficult place to think, how can I get my son or daughter to really appreciate the way God made them? And as parents, it's critical that we do our job in teaching them. So we've got in our studio today, a couple Justin and Lindsay Holcomb with us that are going to help us out. Welcome to Family Life Today, guys. Thank you for having us.

It's a joy to be here and be with you, too. I mean, even as you sit there and listen to Ann talk about her journey, does that sound pretty similar? It does. I mean, I think as little girls growing up, we think, especially I'm petite, too.

We think I'm going to be tall, long and lean. And back then, I mean, we would see things in the magazines. Now, I think it's even worse for little girls and teens as they're looking at everything in social media. It's just in their face constantly. And when you were describing the you said, I think this is an important piece in people's lives because it influences how they think about themselves. And this message is coming from themselves. So sometimes children think this about themselves just by looking in the mirror and kind of comparing themselves. Their parents sometimes communicate by words or actions, their peers and then the culture. So when you think through this one story, I think that story is multiplied for probably every child.

There's a few of us like I didn't think that much. I was always younger and shorter. So I did have a height thing for boys. That's a big deal.

I do have this is radio, but I can describe them. And you understand I have very powerful eyebrows. Powerful. I like that word. That's the good way.

Very huge is in right now. But well, that works really good for our girls. But so that wasn't a major piece, but it was still a part of my identity as a kid. So I think everyone, every child has this. I do think it's heightened because of all different ways that we're focusing on it right now.

And so the there's a tenderness that that parents and caregivers. That's why I like your story of just just telling that story is important because hopefully it'll open up adults eyes of what kind of pressure kids under right now about body image. That's a big weight. Kids got enough going on to deal with body image from their culture, their parents themselves and their peers. That's a big burden.

Yeah. So you guys care enough about it that you've written at least two books and there's more to come about body image. The first one, God Made All of Me, a book to help children protect their bodies. And what we're going to talk about today is another book called God Made Me in His Image Helping Children Appreciate Their Bodies. So I got to ask this, you know, Justin, you're an Episcopalian priest with a Ph.D. Never had that on our program before. Seriously, that is powerful. And I grew up in an Episcopalian church and my little brother died when I was seven.

He was five and a half. And Reverend Ashton, the priest at that parish literally was, in a sense, God to us. He represented the heart of God as he walked us through it. So I have a real tender spot in my heart for your church and what you do. And Lindsay, you're an advocate for sexual abuse survivors.

Talk about that a little bit. For the past 20 years, I've been working with victims of domestic violence, sexual abuse, sex trafficking, either as a consultant or boots on the ground there at the safe house. And so it has been a tremendous honor to come alongside victims.

And they've taught me a lot. I've worked in women's maximum security prisons where they've just shared their story. And out of that, out of hearing that darkness of abuse and betrayal and, you know, not being dignified has really propelled us both to speak out for victims. How can we share the good news that this is not the end of your story?

And how can we equip parents to come alongside their children so that they can help empower and prevent but also intercede if something does happen? In addition, this is just for people listening. I'm also a seminary professor, so it's helpful just for people to know. Like I studied the Bible, talked about theology, trained pastors, and she's a survivor's advocate. But the thing that I need to say is I've worked on 20 books and I'm not saying that to brag.

I'm making a point about this. And four of them I've written with Lindsay. So I'm writing her coattails on all of this.

So we have two books that are for survivors and then the two children books that you mentioned. And so when we met, she was a case manager for a domestic violence shelter while we were dating. And then right after we got married, she was a case manager for a sexual assault crisis center. Basically, anything that I've written that anyone would know my name for is because I'm basically writing her coattails because one time at dinner when we were dating, you said something like, well, don't they do training on this for pastors? And I said, not much. And that's where literally like the ministry she had at the women's federal prison is where one of our books came from. She was teaching a Bible study to a bunch of women in a maximum security prison. So thanks for dragging me along.

That's really cool, though. But there's been a lot of great changes at, well, the seminary where Justin teaches now they're doing courses on this. So that Justin's teaching and I've come in and kind of helped out a little bit. So that's promising. That's huge. The number of pastors and those that are serving in ministry that are getting equipped. I think there's been a lot of change in the last three or four years. But what Dave was saying, our real credibility? We have kids.

They are 11 and 13. So really in the midst of it all. Yeah. And so obviously, as a parent and, you know, as a seminary prof, and you've worked with a lot of people in ministry, why did you decide we need to write something to help parents teach body image in a godly way for kids?

What was the angst behind that? There are two things. One was knowing how many Christian leaders, pastors don't talk about the body at all or really well.

So just there's not much material out there. A lot of Christians think that like the afterlife is that I want to be a disembodied soul floating around in heaven. Like we're going to have resurrected bodies. And that's actually surprising to a lot of Christians. And so that's one is more of the theological ministry. The other piece was just the statistics on the issue of body image. I mean, so basically we've kind of decided we're going to write children's books on difficult issues. You know, the first one was child sexual abuse prevention, this one on body image. So trying to find the pain points where parents feel a burden of they're looking at their kid, they're hearing their kid talk about themselves, or they're watching some of their behavior and they're thinking, what do I do? So we're trying to create resources and just realizing statistically that like 80 percent of girls diet by the time they're like 10. Now you got to stop right there. I read that in the last couple of pages of your book.

You know, we're reading your book and obviously it's written for children and parents to walk through with children, but you get to the end and you sort of talk to the parents. And I'm like, wait a minute, 10 years old, girls have already started dieting. 80 percent of girls at 10 have done some type of food restriction. Oh yeah.

We've got two women in the studio. Did both of you do that? I was a gymnast and so I started at 8. So around the age of 10 is when like they started talking about that. Then later I was in seminary. I was only 21 and I was teaching at an athletic club doing classes and we had to have our body fat measured once a month. I don't know if I thought about it when I was 10, but I remember, you know, probably reading all those teen magazines and seeing things and like, you know, it would be in my head. But then I developed an eating disorder in high school.

I was anorexic. But the thing for me is nobody ever talked about it. Stuff in my family just wasn't discussed. We didn't really talk about hard topics. And so that's one thing Justin and I have thought we have an opportunity as parents and an obligation to talk about these things little bits at a time.

I think people assume like, oh, the Holcomb's they're always talking about dark topics like the real Debbie Downers. But I think with these conversations it needs to be just woven throughout in little bits. So it was how can we equip parents because a lot of our friends just weren't having the conversation because they didn't want to mess it up. They didn't know how to even start. What do I talk about?

What do I not? And so really with this book it was how can we kind of lay a foundation to start the conversation because parents are the best solution. But also as we can talk about moms are one of the biggest problems.

And so how can we bring those two together in a really healthy, empowering way? But I think with the stats Justin was starting to get into by age five or six, most girls especially are starting to express concerns about their weight, size, shape. So we need parents to start reading this book with their three, four, five year olds, if possible, to kind of start the conversation.

Let me give you two more. So they did a study on five year old girls and they found that a five year old girl whose mom talks about dieting is twice as likely to have images about herself of being too big. So just the category, just five year olds hearing their mom talk about their diets, which there's a lot of people talking about their diets, that's not helpful. And then the one that really broke my heart is at age 10, one third, so 33% of girls and 25% of boys say that their number one concern is their body image.

That's the top concern. We looked at that and thought, well, the Bible has something to say about this. You know, the Christian tradition has something to say about this and there's some wisdom that's not technically, you know, specifically Christian that people need to hear. And so we wanted to frame the conversation about body image because too often that conversation gets co-opted by the patterns of this world and we wanted to frame it with what does the Bible say about this? What does God say about you about the doctrine of creation being the image of God and how do you apply that to a child thinking about their own body and try to thread that needle. And part of this is hoping that some of the parents will take it to heart too because they need this book as much as the kids do.

Elaborate on that. What do you mean the parents need it for their own body? Are you saying as parents for their kids? For themselves? Yeah. I think there's a lot of people living with that same pressure from themselves, from their peers, from their culture, things that have been said to them when they were kids out of things.

I think they've been bestowed. Many people have been bestowed an identity when they were young, but even still today is reinforced that their worth is connected to their appearance and it's reinforced all the time. I mean, what do parents say about their little boys? Oh, he's a little stud or she's beautiful.

I mean, it's just, there's such a focus. The adjectives people use about other people. Oh, what about this guy? He's great.

Good looking dude. What about her? She's beautiful. I mean, it's usually one of the first things people say about other people and we know that.

We know how the game is being played. And so for the sake of the kids, if the more parents have a healthier view of themselves, that'll spill over to the children from the kids. So Lindsay, do we tell our kids they're handsome or they're beautiful?

Well, I think there's definitely opportunity for that. You don't want them to one day when they're 30 be like, my mom never told me I was beautiful. But if that's the only adjective that we're picking up or if it's kind of different adjectives, but all related around beauty, then that could be troublesome because then a child will start to think, am I anything but this? Because beauty can be fading or what if I, you know, one day don't have that or if I get old and saggy. So we want to make sure we're highlighting. When we get old. That's happening.

Gravity's gonna win. But I did read once when we do a lot of research before we write these books and it said the best way to talk about your child's body is to not talk about their body in the sense of, I'm not going to sit down with my 13 year old and, you know, mention weight or size, but I could ask her like, hey, how are you feeling about where you are? I mean, she's 13. How are you feeling? Like we've been talking about your body's changing and all those conversations. There's ways to have that conversation that are going to be encouraging and empowering without me sitting down and being like, hey, I'm feeling overweight. I'm feeling frumpy.

Are you feeling overweight? I mean, so I think it's how we have, because I have been sitting around women before when our girls were little and we had this neighbor, she literally would grab her stomach and be like, and I've seen this through countless women. They'll literally grab their areas of their body that they don't feel that strong about and be like, really need to diet for this section or I got to lay off such and such. Can't put the bathing suit on with this here. And the kids are there and they hear everything.

You might think they're not, but they do. And so I think there's ways like with our 11 and 13 year old, it's talking about, hey, you're not liking where you are on the volleyball team because you're sitting on the bench a lot. What are some things that we can do to grow in like skill and strength and kind of get you from A to B? And so we talk a lot about grit. We talk a lot about what are some different things you want to try or I see you really strong in this area.

Is there anything else you want to explore? Let's kind of create like a bucket list or if you're down one day, okay, you can be down. But then at the end of the day, let's make a plan.

Let's pray and ask God to give wisdom about some other things you can try. So it's kind of like, let's not stay stuck in the moment. But we're also, we don't sit around and talk about weight or size necessarily. I have no problem talking about like complimenting them. If I had a son, I'd, hey, you're a handsome young man or you're a beautiful girl. I think that's the main thing.

That's the first thing and the main thing. That's the problem. And what I see too much are too many men are complimenting their wives and daughters.

I see it on social media all the time. My beautiful wife, my beautiful kids. That's great. Everyone like I think I'm with you. I'm like criticize yourself. I think you're amazing. But for the idea that the only adjective most little girls and boys here is handsome or beautiful. Yeah, that's heartbreaking. So I started doing the opposite instead of not talking about, I'd be like, I'd bury it.

I'd be like, you're so smart and sweet and kind and beautiful. Like yeah, list in there. That's fun. Cause I can like what I don't want to do. Maybe, maybe mom shouldn't talk to girls about their bodies.

I don't know. But as a dad, I want to be in their head. Like, like they need to know they're beautiful and I don't want some bozo who just wants to kiss on them or get their attention to be the first one to say that I want them to be so confident about how they think and feel about themselves spiritually, physically, mentally, socially.

So that's really important is the power. I mean, going back to the story, when parents criticize their own bodies, let alone the, some of the things we've heard parents say to their children in front of us, which is horrifying. But when they, when parents criticize their own bodies in front of children, they're teaching their children how to criticize themselves.

They're, they're shaping them. So to counter that, I think there's a great power in, in parents loading up those compliments. I mean, it's all the time with me.

I mean, every night, like I go through like, how are things? You're, you're so good socially. Like you're brilliant.

Like, I wish you were in my grade back then. We'll tell them why. Like Lindsay says that to them and just watching them light up. Like you got to bestow an identity to these kids.

It might sink in. They might actually believe that we mean it if you say it. It's like mom and dad's words are going to have power over social media, over the kids at school. Is that what you're saying?

We think they don't, but they really do have power, our words. When I think if they feel safe at home and empowered, and like I said, you know, as far as the conversation shouldn't be about their bodies, but if your child's coming to you and saying, Hey, I feel insecure. Well then all, by all means, if they're broaching the topic, let's go there. But I don't think a parent should ever sit down and be like, Hey, I really think you're packing on the weight from such and such, which I think is what some parents do or, or they start to kind of subtly put in messages like, you might not want to grab that. I've had a lot of moms come to me and say, my 12 year old daughter, you know, she's right on the brink of hitting puberty and she's really gained weight. I can tell she's gained like 15 pounds. I can tell she's not feeling good about herself. Should I say anything?

Answer that question for us, guys. Like, do we ever say something if it feels like something's going on? Well, I don't think you ever bring up like, Hey, you've gained weight. I think it could be the conversation of, is anything bothering you? Or what made you feel happy today? What made you feel sad today? And see if you can draw out what are the sad, negative things going on. And then maybe the parent can piece together, okay, she's having friend issues or great issues or something.

What's leading to this? And then kind of come up with a bucket list like, Hey, I see that you're really strong in theater. Let's dive into that. Or, Hey, I find that the end like I sleep better if I've gone and gotten some fresh air. Let's go walk the track together a couple of times, make it a family event. And then also encourage them say, what are some things that you haven't ever tried before that you want to just maybe one time, let's go do it.

And that builds that resiliency that builds that grit that we're always talking about with our girls. But it might help the parent kind of either introduce their child to something new that maybe is physical exercise that they've never dove into. But if it's a family thing, it's more like we're doing this as a group, we're hanging out, it's building camaraderie, rather than you need to go run around the lake by yourself. No one wants to do that. I don't want to do that.

But if it's let's go walk as a family after dinner and catch up about the day and walk the dog or get some fresh air because it's going to help us sleep better. That's just a huge life care lesson that hopefully they can take, you know, when they're not in your home. I think there's a wiser way to bring that up. So back to the specific question of they seem to be gaining weight. Well, one, that's actually what happens when you grow is you actually do put on weight so you can then shoot up, you put on weight, shoot up, that's normal. But to I think reframe it, this is what you did so well, Lindsay, when they're younger and still do is but reframe it from a weight discussion to a health discussion, like make go broader, just be like, hey, like, how do you think through like, sleeping, eating health, you know, exercise, asking the question would be horrifying.

There's so find a way to get there, do a little bit more work, maybe drop some seeds here and there. And then like, prepare for a few days to where you might actually see if something comes up from the conversation, like be strategic about this. And the way that Lindsay talked about food, I remember her talking about this mean, there was sometimes food and anytime food, not good and bad food, like talk about food for health reasons. So sometimes food is, you know, sweets. It's not bad food, because then you get in their head. And then welcome to your eating disorder pathway.

Or anytime food is all the stuff you'd want to be anyway. So I think it's reframing. I think there is a point of checking in. That's what you're describing Lindsay is getting them to talk because usually, they might actually think that about themselves, they might notice someone at school most likely has said something. So there's probably going to be something that was said that was harmful that they'll tell you. And then you can address that. Then you start saying, Well, what do you think about that?

Well, you know, like, I want you to be healthy, I want your body strong. I mean, this has happened to our girls. I mean, I think we can tell the story. But our girls 11 and 13. They are stereotypically what our culture would say beautiful, like stunning. And they have been criticized by their peers. One of them was called fat. And she is, I mean, just that was the word that was used.

I hate just saying it because it's just the way that's used. But she's not OB. She's not anything.

She's not a rail. But she's also I mean, she's an athlete, and the child who said it's just a mean girl. And the other one, she had someone commented on her nose and eyebrows like children will find things to make other kids feel insecure.

There's a really good chance going again, back to the question. Someone's probably said something to all of our children and expect that something's being you can even ask, has anyone ever said something to you that really hurt because people do that to me all the time. And I tell that we tell them stories about that about how people bring up my eyebrows, my receding hairline, my gray hair, like, so I tell my girls that I'm like, Hey, I mean, this doesn't stop still today. People do this like this is what people do. They're mean.

And so I want to help you deal. And yet, you know, even as we close, something happened, Justin, when you talked about Lindsay and your daughters, and even their perspective on their bodies, you got emotional. What was that? Why is that? Because I imagine the kind of identity that the culture has bestowed to them. I know that my little girls have been called fat. They're been made fun of because of their nose or one who feels like she might be too tall and lanky or whatever.

I also know that Lindsay didn't have a great dad. So I know there's voices that they have. And I hate those voices.

Yeah. And I want to pummel them and I want to be louder than them. And I want that voice because that's what God did to me.

I mean, I have all these other voices of condemnation or whatever from sin or how you've been sinned against. And God bestows an identity to me. And that's powerful. And so if I can be a part of doing that to the three women in my life, I'm gonna do everything I can for them. So that's that's fulfilling. Yeah, I was picking up on that. And I was thinking, man, if somebody tonight, if a dad or a mom, or both, lays in bed with their daughter or son, whether five or 15, and is the voice of speaking those life words and beauty, that can go so far because, you know, we know our kids are hearing it.

We're hearing it, negative thoughts and beliefs about our own body. And if we can be the voice of God for them to remind them they're made in His image, that'd be a good night. Amen.

Really good night. That was David Ann Wilson talking with Justin and Lindsay Holcomb on Family Life Today. We'd love to send you a copy of their children's book, God Made Me in His Image, when you make a donation of any amount this week at familylifetoday.com. Or when you give us a call with your donation at 1-800-358-6329.

You can make that a one time gift or recurring monthly gift. Again, the number is 1-800-F as in family, L as in life, and then the word today. And if you know of anyone who could benefit from today's conversation, you can share this podcast wherever you get your podcasts. And while you're there, it'd really help us out if you'd rate and review us. Now, if starting a conversation with your kids about their body image is at all intimidating, read yes, you're going to want to join David Ann Wilson as they talk again with Justin and Lindsay Holcomb.

They'll help make it at least less intimidating than it may sound. That's coming up tomorrow. We hope you can join us. On behalf of David Ann Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a production of Family Life, a crew ministry, helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.