A Rocky Start

The following program is a family life today classic. The truth of the matter is I knew that I had sinned in my life. You know, I had done some things in college that was, I was pretty sure was not good.

But so we were sitting there, I just didn't think I was gonna be talking about it that day. But he was not gonna let up on me. And I thank God for that. Because if he hadn't been so persistent. One person would have walked out of there saved, and I'd have been in bad shape. I'd have got what I went there for maybe.

But I wouldn't have experienced the grace of God. Welcome to family life today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson, and I'm Dave Wilson.

And you can find us at familylifetoday.com or on our family life app. This is family life today. We're hearing a powerful story this week from a couple who I chuckle. I've written a book called The Marriage Knot, and that's K-N-O-T, because I was thinking a little The Marriage Knot. Because that was almost the case. They were kind of tied in a knot.

That's exactly how it started. The couple are joining us, Ron and Jodie Zappia. Guys, welcome back to family life today. These are friends of yours. You've done ministry together. Ron and Jodie give leadership to a church in the western suburbs of Chicago, High Point Church. You've been there for almost two decades now, right?

Yeah, totally. Parents of three daughters. And as we've already heard this week, you guys met each other in junior high, dated off and on throughout high school and college, got married, corporate fast tracking for both of you, living apart for part of the first six months of your marriage. And all of that came to a head when, Jodie, you walked in one night to surprise your husband, and you got the surprise and found that he was with another woman.

And that led to the crisis point that brought you guys to going, okay, what do we do? And Ron, you were shattered. And Jodie, you were the planner who said, well, I'm giving myself a two week deadline to decide whether I divorce him or not. And you put that in your Franklin planner and then got counsel from a stranger who said you should go to this marriage workshop at a local church.

And that's where you ended up. This was two nights after the affair. You are in a marriage workshop at a local church. You hadn't been to church together ever, right?

No. And Ron, you said you're hearing things you've never heard about being a husband before, and God was at work on both of you. Yeah, it really was. And I mean, for us, you know, obviously it was devastation. And, you know, I was making choices that, you know, living a lifestyle and doing some things that I wish I wouldn't have. But we were, you know, I was broken. And, you know, I mean, I think about what Jodie could have done that night. And, you know, this is the kind of stuff that people could respond in a lot of very, very different ways. And, you know, fortunately we went to this marriage workshop and Jodie had wanted to, you know, talk with a pastor, meet with a pastor because we weren't getting our questions answered.

One specific question, you know, can I get a divorce? And so we wound up getting a counseling meeting with this pastor. And it was a very interesting meeting now being in ministry. I mean, we grew up with a non-church background. I mean, I was in the business world.

There was no pathway to ministry. And, you know, we were looking at each other and we went to this counseling meeting. And the pastor said to us, he said, well, I've got about 45 minutes, you know, to meet with you.

To fix your marriage. I thought that's a good technique. And Jodie, did you think, well, OK, this 45 minutes, I will know whether I should stay or not?

Absolutely. I thought I was going to get a checkmark. And he said, and this was the pivotal point, you know, he just said, you know, we can talk about how messed up your marriage is and all of that. Or we can talk about the grace and forgiveness of the Lord Jesus Christ. And I needed forgiveness. That was a really interesting meeting for me because, again, I did.

I really thought the spotlight was going to be on Ron. He was going to be convicted guilty. And I was going to walk out of there with my OK or whatever.

Your checkmark. Yes. But so he mentioned something like, you know, yeah, the mess you're in or God's plan or something. I guess I looked at it as there's probably not much redeeming we can get out of the mess we're in.

So it sounds like this other thing maybe will be more helpful. And he started explaining the gospel to us. And, you know, he zeroed in on our sin. So we did end up talking about the mess we were in because what I remember out of it is like, again, I thought the whole spotlight was going to be on Ron. And he would he kept putting it back on me because Ron broke pretty easily. Like he knew what he did was wrong. And he was what our friend pastor who has said now is he would he feels like he witnessed Ron's repentance right then and there. Because Ron was saying, you know, recognizing that he didn't like the person he'd become.

I don't even like me right now. And he also recognized that he had sinned not only against me, but against God, which, again, that's the Holy Spirit, because that just wasn't even in our vocabulary. But that happened there. But you got to understand something. I didn't realize that I had sinned against God. I never even made that connection of, yeah, that I didn't really know. I didn't really care. I never thought about God.

I never really understood. And so I was in a place where I had nowhere to turn. And so when he gave me a pathway of forgiveness, I mean, I took him and the lifeline. I didn't want to be the person I had become. I had hurt the most important person in my life.

And so, Jodie, for you, it was easy to see Ron's apparent sin. Could you see your own sin? Well, the truth of the matter is I knew that I had sinned in my life. You know, I had done some things in college that I was pretty sure was not good. And I felt shame.

I can remember feeling that sometimes on campus. So we were sitting there. I just didn't think I was going to be talking about it that day. And I didn't really want to talk about it that day. But he was not going to let up on me.

And I thank God for that. Because if he hadn't been so persistent, one person would have walked out of there saved. And I'd have been in bad shape. I'd have got what I went there for, maybe.

But I wouldn't have experienced the grace of God. Did he just keep coming at you until you broke? Yeah, he just was... I had to confess some very specific sin. And I remember getting angry with him. He specifically asked me about, so did you and Ron, did you have premarital sex?

And I remember thinking, who is he to ask me that question right now? Yeah, what's that have to do with anything? This is Ron's problem. Exactly. And I was mad.

I didn't want to deal with that today. Well, yes. But I remember I was so justified. Because he was the only person. And I married him. And I was justified in that because I had all these little things I was building my life on, trying to be a nice person. And it was just becoming very apparent that I was just as simple as Ron. And I didn't plan on dealing with it that day.

But it didn't take long. Well, he said specifically, though, hun. He said specifically... He said, oh, so then you said it was okay to have sex outside of marriage.

And when he said that, I mean, this girl was ready to attack this guy. And I remember... Wow. When he said, I'll never forget that. I said, I did not.

I would never say that. And then he said, well, you know, actions speak louder than words. And I remember just, I remember being mad. And yet at the same time, like, oh, you know, like, he was right.

Like, he got me. So basically, it became apparent that I needed forgiveness just as much as Ron did. I remember turning from anger to being self-aware and going, oh, my, I am guilty before God. Do you remember that? Yeah, definitely.

And like I said, it was almost like a battle going on there. Because I would go from being so mad to then being like, oh, he got me. Like, yes, I know I'm a sinner. I know I got sin.

I know that. That's not what we're here for. Did you guys surrender that day? We did.

Your lives to Christ? We did. What did that look like? Yeah, it was a prayer. And, you know, we didn't understand. I mean, honestly, you know, he said a prayer. You know, it's a version of a sinner's prayer.

He said, would you like to get forgiveness from that sin? And we're like, yeah. And we, you know, again, we looked at each other, tears in our eyes.

Yeah, like, yeah. And I don't know what led to that, honestly. And part of it, as I look back, we had a really strong friendship and relationship. And, you know, God was breaking us down. He had to break me down. I knew the reason we were in this counseling meeting was because of me, because of my sin, because of my fault, because of what I had done. So I was ready.

I would have done anything to get rid of that guilt. And he led us in a prayer. It was October 31st. I'll never forget.

I can tell you the exact time. We like to call that reformation. A lot of people are down. A lot of good things happen on that day. But I remember the time. I remember where I was standing. I remember walking out of that counseling office. It was fall.

It was dark. Well, I remember asking the question, like, hey, what about the marriage? You know, because we got up on this tangent. Yeah.

And I remember, you know, I had to figure out, is he supposed to be moving out? You know, real practical things. Hurt and betrayal and trust. I mean, that's all still there.

Even though you both just surrendered to Christ, you still got a lot of, you got a lot of shrapnel. Yeah. And now what? Although, you know, it is interesting. It was Halloween. It's like, think of that.

It's the first time maybe in your marriage the mask came off. Yeah. Yeah. That's for sure. You're hidden.

You put on what we do at Halloween. Right. And now they're gone. And it's like, okay. You really saw each other. Yeah.

It was reformation. Yeah. So then what happened?

What's that look like? I mean, I can speak from my perspective. I mean, I walked out of there. And I don't remember if, you know, we were walking next to each other.

We drove there. I mean, that's craziness as it is. I mean. Yeah. Let me ask. Jody, did you like Ron?

Did you like him at that time? No. She did.

And she ought not to. Because the things that I were doing were foolish and stupid. It's hard to say. But I remember thinking like, well, yeah, sure you can come along. But it was it was kind of an indifference. I was like just tagging along. And so she was like, I've been through this before. This is an act.

What's he doing? Like, she didn't believe it. And so she was fortunate enough to let me come along. It was like, okay, I'll let you prove it out. And you're going to drop out of this thing. And I didn't drop out because it was real.

It was the first time in my life that I was learning things that could help me. I walked out of that meeting, I can't speak for Jody, but I'm telling you, man, like the weight was gone. I could feel it. You know, I hear and maybe there's someone listening today where you're trapped.

You can't stop that behavior. You have the guilt, the shame. Everyone's looking at you. I walked out of there with the freedom and the forgiveness that changed the trajectory of my life. And I could feel it. And you know, we have one of those lightning rod moment stories where we I was struck.

God healed. I didn't know what was going to happen. We didn't know what the marriage was going to, you know, if it was even going to survive. But I was walking out there with a new lease on life.

I was walking out there with a second chance that I desperately wanted and needed. Unrelated to the marriage, really. Because at that point. It wasn't about the marriage. Well, you had given the marriage two weeks.

Yeah. And you'd make a decision in two weeks what you're going to do. So we get to the two week deadline. We become Christians.

You become Christians in the process. So when you're there with that Thursday on your planner, are you thinking, well, I guess I guess divorce isn't an option anymore. Is that what you were thinking?

Not necessarily. However, I will say, like the decision about him moving out, the pastor asked a couple key questions. You know, was the had the affair ended, done? And Ron said yes.

And you know, definitively. And then he said, OK, well, then it would probably be best if you guys stayed together because you've just experienced this new thing, this new relationship that's starting with God. And it would probably be good for you to, you know, see.

I don't know. He kind of just indicated that because the affair was over, we should probably not get separated. And so I just trusted him. And it was a good thing because, you know, there's fruit of repentance and you started to see some of that.

Yes. And if we hadn't been together, I think I still would have been a little leery that, oh, sure, he's on his best behavior. What kind of things did you see? I knew him so well that I knew they were things that were not in his control. And it's like something as silly as, you know, the Tupperware falling out of the top shelf, you know, on top of him when he grabbed one thing, you know, in the past, that would have been a huge Jody, you know, you know, would have been a major words that should not be said on the radio. Yes, my fault. And it would have been a big, you know, it wasn't him, you know, and I knew stuff he couldn't really control. And so that got my attention.

And then what was really funny is, as I saw these couple of things, even like, I think alcohol to like you, he was right away, there was just not that he and that was a contributor to the breakdown. Yeah. It contributed. Yeah. And it was social.

We were just social. So you were done. Yeah.

Like, I'm not going to drink it. Yeah. He recognized. Yeah. So I saw some things like that that no one told him to do either. And I saw some things that inhibitions get tampered with when you have a couple of drinks. Yeah.

Your guard goes down. Yeah. Did you keep the same job?

No, I didn't. Yeah. I left the job.

You left because of this woman. That was a big part of the reason. It was God's provision.

Yeah. It was God's provision. He had really just been literally in the interview process with this other thing and it was determined at that point. And he was definitely going to, you know, take this other job. And we would say, you know, that there has to be some fruit if you're in that situation. Certainly we wouldn't tell somebody to stay in a damaging and difficult situation when there's no change and when that's not happening. But I think, you know, I was making decisions that were such to where Jody could see some things changing.

And that was really pivotal. And, you know, what the pastor did, one of the things we learned is we talk about the marriage triangle. Imagine a triangle in your mind right now and with God at the top and, you know, you're on the left corner and your spouse is on the right corner.

And he just said this, you know, he didn't tell us about the marriage and whether it was going to work. He just said, you know, as you move up one side of the triangle and the other person moves upside the other triangle, like right now at the bottom, you guys are both really far apart. Do you see that? Do you see that?

He's circling it. And our assignment was work on this relationship with God. So as you work on your relationship with God, he works on his, we get closer together.

And the distance in the middle is going to be the same. And there's no guarantee that I would do it, she would do it, but that's what we began to do and how silly and simple it seems, we began to develop a relationship with God that we didn't have. I love how Dave and Anne talk about this and I've said this over and over to so many people in so many places.

Have you, Bob? That's nice to know. Yeah. And I attribute you about 30 percent of the time.

30 percent? Most of the time. I just take the glory for myself.

I'll take it. But since you're here today. It's the statement that you guys have made, which is if you want to get this relationship, the horizontal relationship, husband and wife relationship, you want to get that right, you got to get this relationship. And now you're pointing upward. Vertical. You got to get the vertical relationship right. It's at the heart of vertical marriage, the book that you bring. And if there's a problem in the horizontal relationship, that's an indication there's a problem in the vertical relationship. You fix the vertical relationship, the horizontal relationship can work its way out, right?

Yeah. And the other thing is that's what that pastor really showed you. We've gone through the same thing. And it's really cool to think the miracle of you guys going vertical is now God's using that to help other couples, not just through your book, but everything you do.

But I got to ask this. You know, you're watching Ron change. Did you change?

And especially, how did you get to forgiveness? It's funny because it all just went hand in hand. I started seeing him change.

And I do remember feeling kind of like a little excitement. Like were you hopeful but hesitant? Yeah, I would say that because I remember my mom saying, you can't change a person. People don't change.

So you made your bed, you sleep in it, or you're not going to change them at the altar or you don't alter them at the altar or something like that. So I started seeing like, people can change. And if he can change, then I can change. And so then I remember, I think I started praying more, like, making sure that this whatever we did in the pastor's office stuck for me too, you know, because I saw him changing. But I thought, well, I want to change.

I want to be different too. And so that was going on. And then the issue of forgiveness was definitely hanging over my head. I will say that I, because I too, when we left that meeting, had the same sense that Ron did of the weight of the world was lifted off my shoulders, and honestly, even the weight of making this decision on Thursday about a divorce. You know, again, like how you mentioned, give it time. You know, you don't have to make this quick decision.

You don't have to make it this week. And that was freeing to me to not feel like I had this big, huge decision I had to make. Yeah, that I could just give this some time and God was going to show me now. Like I now was on a path where I was going to get answers.

And that's what started happening. And one of the big questions was, I kind of understood I need to forgive him. That was rooted in the fact that I had this sense that I had just been forgiven everything. And I didn't know much of the Bible, but I do remember in the past having come across the verse where like, if you don't forgive your brother, I won't forgive you. You know, I remember reading that once and I closed the Bible because like, oh boy, I'm in trouble.

That was one of those moments where, oh, I'm not as good off as I thought I was. So I had this sense that I knew because I'd been forgiven everything, I was not in a position to withhold forgiveness. So I had, I understood that. But the issue of trust was the bigger deal. Like, well, I can forgive them, but I don't have to stay married to them. Well, and this is really important for couples to hear because there is a difference between forgiveness and trust.

And forgiveness is a choice and a decision we can make. Trust is something to be earned that has to be over. So here's my formula. Oh, good. There's a formula for rebuilding trust.

It's CB over T is the formula. Consistent behavior over time equals trust. So if you want to rebuild trust in your life, you have to see a pattern of consistent behavior that there is a difference, that things have changed and that's consistent over time. And people will say to me, well, how much time? And I will go as long as it takes. How deep did the wound go? That's how long it's going to take. And somebody go, well, like a couple of months, well, it might take a year.

We don't know because it's how deep did the wound go? And the amount of time is in the hands of the one who was violated. It isn't the one who, it's like I say to husbands all the time or wives, if you're the one who's committed to fair or broken the trust, you hand them your phone and say, you can see me where I am every second.

They look at me like, are you crazy? I've repented. It's over.

Yeah, it may take a year. And the person who's been violated can't just refuse to grant trust. Then they have to ask, have I really forgiven?

Right? Because you can say I've forgiven and still hold on to bitterness. But if you've let go of the bitterness and if you've really forgiven, then the posture of your heart should be, I want to be able to trust you again. I want us to get to this position.

So let's work together to make that happen. But the reality is this, when you're in the situation and I can only imagine, I mean, I learned, let's just stop on the forgiveness thing for a moment. I learned from forgiveness from Jodie. I learned God's forgiveness, what that was about as she forgave.

It was earth shattering. And I saw her, but then I needed to affirm because I knew I had damaged and I had broken the trust. And I had to affirm her and I had to slow down. And she emotionally, there was times where I had to affirm my commitment to her over and over, just like you guys are saying it had to be, I had to say it, I'm committed to you this. I mean, I had to verbalize it, which was not easy for me because I wasn't a verbal person at that point in my life. Ron, was there a point that you had to forgive yourself? You know, I mean, I think I was so broken and shattered that I think the Lord's forgiveness really helped me understand that.

I think for me, I would just say it like this, I was caught in a situation to where for me, I was so broken that when I got, felt, sensed the healing from God, I think I would verbalize it like this, that I do have a fresh start. I can change. I can look different.

My life can be different. You know, one of the things I believed it too. I believe that people couldn't change. I mean, and some of our listeners right now, you think people can't change.

I mean, I believed it when I was in college. And the reason I thought that was because I couldn't change. I mean, Thursday night, the school I went to, it was like, I was an athlete and you know, Friday morning get up and you know, you got the hangover and you know, we would look at each other, man, I can't, I would say to my roommates, man, I got to stop doing this. I got to stop doing this.

And they're like, you can't stop doing this. And that's one of the things for me that God rooted some things out and I could be different. The new you was there. And I believe that was as a result of God's forgiveness. I saw myself as a different person in a different light. And I would add this, and I know you guys agree with this. It's like, can people change?

Yes and no. Because part of me is like, we can change in our own strength a little bit and maybe for a little while, but permanent life changing, life altering, legacy transforming change. You guys found it. It's in Jesus.

It's in a power supernaturally that we don't have. And so your story is a picture of that. So I would say to anybody listening right now, if you don't know Jesus, man, this is the day to get on your knees. This is the day to bow your head and say, God, I've been trying to change. I want to change. I want long-term change. I can't change my spouse, but I can change me. No, actually I can't. God, you can. I surrender. When they go vertical, when they do what you did, what we did, they do what we do. God changes people inside out through the Holy Spirit resurrection, supernatural power of God. And it literally has consequences that will change your legacy forever.

Yeah. I hope our listeners will get copies of the book that Ron and Jody have written called The Marriage, Not Seven Choices That Keep Couples Together. We've got the book in our Family Life Today Resource Center.

You can order it from us online at familylifetoday.com or call 1-800-358-6329, that's 1-800-F as in family, L as in life, and then the word today. Now, tomorrow we're going to hear about the process of rebuilding trust after there's been betrayal in a marriage relationship. Ron and Jody Zappia will be back with us again.

Hope you can be back as well. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Bob Lapine. We'll see you tomorrow for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a production of Family Life, a crew ministry, helping you pursue the relationships that matter most. The preceding program was from the Family Life Today Classic Archives.