I remember sitting two weeks before our wedding in the Chicago ballroom downtown Chicago at the Family Life Weekend to remember, engaged, listening to the president of Family Life, Dennis Rainey, talk about how important the spiritual part of your marriage is. Do you remember? Oh yeah, I thought Dennis Rainey is the most remarkable speaker.
This conference is amazing. You know what I remember is from that day on you wanted me to be Dennis Rainey. That's what I remember. It started right then and there.
Yes, that is when it started. Welcome to Family Life Today where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson and I'm Dave Wilson and you can find us at familylifetoday.com or on our Family Life app.
This is Family Life Today. And again, 14 days from now we're getting married. I remember thinking, oh the spiritual part of our marriage will be the easiest. Yeah.
I mean it won't even be something you have to work at. We love Jesus, it's so natural. And then we got married. And what happened? I had no idea, number one, how hard marriage would be. Number two, how hard it would be to connect together spiritually. It was really a struggle for me.
Here we are 41 years later and it's still a struggle in some ways. I really think that I judged your spiritual walk and I had expectations that you were gonna be Dennis Rainey and Bob LaPine and so I was like, wait what is happening right now? And so I was always thinking, oh you should do this and you should do that. I feel like it was more me than anybody. Oh good, I'm gonna blame you then too.
You can. I think it was all you. No, I mean the conference was phenomenal. I will say this, the conferences are still going on.
Family Life still does, the weekend remember, over 40 years. And this spring we have 60 booked, which is amazing after we get through COVID. And here's the good news, you can go to one of our spring conferences for 50% off.
Okay, you guys, did you hear that? That's a two for one deal. Your registration will be half off.
That's remarkable. And what's really cool is you can pick any city you want. There's probably one near you or if you want to go to destinations Friday night through Sunday morning. And again, we went as an engaged couple, so you can go as dating engaged couple. You can go as newlyweds. You can go as couples. Be there 30, 40 years married. It'll literally, maybe save your marriage. If not, I guarantee you'll enhance your marriage.
Two and a half days. We've had people actually hand us their divorce papers at the conference saying they came as a last ditch effort and this changed their lives. And so it's pretty remarkable of how God shows up and you hear God's game plan for marriage. So go to familylifetoday.com You can sign up there or call Family Life 1-800-FL-TODAY and I'm telling you it'd be one of the best things you ever do. And another best thing you'll ever do is listen to this show today because we've got Dave and Ashley Willis back with us again. Welcome to Family Life Today. Thank you all.
Thank you. Ann wanted you to be like Dennis Draney and I think Ashley wants me to be like Dave Wilson. You've got way too much hair.
You're never gonna look like this. You got good hair, dude. Well, it's the only reason why I want to go to high school reunions because like I found that as a guy, the only reason a man really wants to go to a high school reunion is because he still has his hair. It's about to see people.
It doesn't matter what you're doing for a living. I've got my hair. You've got a perfectly shaped head though. It is so symmetrical. You're trying to be affirming now, aren't you? You're very handsome.
You know, you have to have high testosterone to lose your hair in the first place because you're so much of a man. I know. It is. It's not easy, is it, Dave? All I know is I'm looking at your latest book, Naked and Healthy, and there's a picture of you guys on the cover. No publishers ever put us on the cover, honey. Why is that?
What happened? It's not because of you. It's because of me.
They don't want a bald guy on the front of a book. Your ministry, you have really impacted hundreds of thousands of people. Like you are helping marriages everywhere around the world. So thank you for what you've been doing. You've been writing books and you're, how many years have you been married? Twenty. Twenty years.
And you've written like 25 books. I don't even know what's happening right now. I don't know. Having hair and typing fast is really my only skills. That is not true. Like that's it. I'm not athletic.
I can't play the guitar like Dave. It's just. And you get four sons. Yes. You have a podcast. Called Naked Marriage.
Yep. And we've already described naked marriage does not mean you sit in a room naked. It is all about vulnerability and naked and unashamed.
It's beautiful. And in this book, Naked and Healthy, and first of all, we've talked about it a little bit. How did you even come up with the idea of healthy because you're talking about mental health. You're talking about spiritual health and physical health. Today we get to talk about the spiritual part.
But where did even the concept come? Yeah. I mean we just, we just kind of, in the couples that we've worked with over the many years we've done marriage ministry, we just saw this tendency of couples not having health in all of those areas. And how, you know, really both the husband and wife are individuals who have their individual health, but also it affects the marriage collectively. You know, when we're, one of us is struggling with mental health, it's going to affect the other. And when one of us is really not feeling good physically, it's going to affect the other. And so, and sometimes you both are dealing with those things. Like sometimes you both are having mental health issues or physical issues. And so we just wanted to talk about what does it look like in us individually striving towards better health, but also in our marriage, having a healthier marriage. And like how do we navigate that? Because sometimes when we're not on the same page, you know, on our health journey, it can cause a lot of fights.
And so we talk about that. We talk about how you can grow healthier physically, mentally, and spiritually, um, as an individual, but also how in that journey you can actually grow stronger in your marriage. So let's talk about the spiritual, um, because I know a lot of couples probably feel like we're in different places. You know, we're not compatible spiritually. We may be in physically and mentally and emotionally, but this area there's a, there's a little gap or disconnect. What do you say? I mean, obviously we've already said it's really, really important part of your marriage, but what do you say to a couple of feels like I'm not able to connect in the same level or a different level than my spouse? Well, I would say it's first off, it's really worth the effort. I think, you know, our culture has given us this myth that as long as you've got chemistry, as long as there's like, you know, physical connection, then that's really all you need.
And that alone make is the recipe for a terrible relationship. If you, if you're not building... And they would probably say, and if you have a spiritual, oh, that's just a great bonus. It's not at the forefront of their thinking. It's not, but really it needs to be the foundational part of the three.
It's the most important. I mean, Jesus tells the, the parable of the storm coming and where's your life built. You got to build your life on the rock. If you don't have that foundation, the storms of life are going to blow you over. And within marriage, it's building that house together on the rock, which is your faith in God, his word being unified in that because storms of life are going to come. And sadly, a lot of couples don't realize how spiritually disconnected they are until a storm comes along and really just kind of knocks them off the foundation. And they realize, I thought we were just doing pretty good, but we were on autopilot. And the spiritual aspect of our lives, our faith in Christ are being rooted together in him had just not been a priority. And so... I'm going to read that scripture.
Cause that's one of our favorites. It's at the end of the sermon of the Mount in Matthew seven, it says this, um, everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock and the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat on that house. But it did not fall because it had been founded on the rock and everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand and the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat against that house and it fell and great with the fall of it. So you guys, I just, I want you to talk through that. You've already been doing it Dave, but like walk us through the importance and how you've probably seen so many houses fall over the years of ministry and marriage.
Right. And I think, you know, we always say too, like when, when kind of your house, like, you know, you can have all the, like those winds hitting your house and it can even crumble on the rock, but the rocks there to support you, you know, cause I think even in our health journeys we can feel that we can be like, man, it's like another diagnosis or it's like another thing with my mental illness is flaring up again. I'm having those anxiety, you know, anxiety attacks again or whatever it is. I think even when we go through that, when we have a spiritual health in our life, when we're building our house, so to speak on the truth of God's word and in our relationship with him, we can get through anything we really can. And you know, I think a lot of times where the spiritual aspect really comes to light, it's one of the big ones is when we're going through troubles. But also I find this when couples have children because they're not sure where faith is, you know, what role faith is going to play in raising those children. And so many times couples reach out to us and they'll say, you know, I know I definitely, you know, I kind of strayed away from the church for awhile, but I really want to come back to the Lord and I want to raise our children in the church. But my husband or my wife or whatever is saying, well, just you and the kids go, and it really grieves the spouse's heart who's going to church and the spouse at home is like, you're weird. Like I don't even want to do that. Like I was raised like that. It didn't seem real to me.
I don't want any part of it. And so you start to see the conflict rise there. And you know, the reason we kind of, you know, wrote this book about health and especially about the spiritual side of it is that it really is, I believe the most important aspect of our health because again, it's the thing that can get us through all those other times when, when we're having trouble in the other areas. And so, um, you know, when you're going through this, I think it's really important to just talk openly and honestly about really where you are in your spiritual journey.
And don't be afraid. You know, you got to get naked, so to speak and be vulnerable about it. And if you are doubting God, you know, don't be afraid to go to your spouse and say, like, listen, I really, I long to kind of feel the way you do about the Lord, but I, this thing happened to me or I've just had these doubts and I don't know what to do with them. So let's talk through that. And I think that's where you start to see couples really get a better understanding of each other, but also really kind of grow in the Lord when they can be that honest.
Now, let me ask you this. So if you're the spouse that's going to church or wanting to pursue a spiritual walk and your spouse isn't, how do you talk about it? Like maybe they're adamant, like, you know, you go, it's not my thing.
It's never going to be my thing. Maybe you started a marriage thinking that we were going to be somewhat compatible here, but you realize, wow, we're not, how do you navigate that? We get a lot of those messages and if you're listening and you're in that dynamic, you know, we, we pray for you because I think that can be such a lonely place when you're the believing spouse and you feel like you're trying to carry that, that alone and the most important part of your life, your faith in Christ isn't something that your spouse will share with you.
And it's so hard to have complete intimacy when the most important part of your life is something that they're, they're not willing to participate in. The Bible gives us some good practical instruction on here and Paul's writings in the New Testament and to kind of, you know, summarize, you know, what, what he says, it's to keep loving them, to try to like win them over with, with your good deeds and that nowhere in there is, does it say like beat them over the head, preach at them, you know, tell them that they're terrible, guilt them into it, but it's, it's love them, serve them, be kind to them, let them know you're praying for them. You know, let them see through your authentic but imperfect example, because none of us are perfect, but your authentic example that, that you really believe what you say you believe and that you're doing your part to live it out and, and talk about what the difference it's making in your life and what you're learning and how you're growing and how you're, you're praying for them and how, you know, someday, you know, you'd love to be able to share, share this with them, but do it in a way that is, that is inviting. And that is, you know, that the Bible also says, be willing to give, give it to, to testify to the reason for the hope that you have, but do it with gentleness and respect.
And that's 1 Peter that says that. And so be willing to say like what your faith is about and why you believe what you believe and why you're doing what you're doing, but do it with gentleness and respect and not that animosity or anger or frustration of like, well, if you would do it with me, life would be so much easier. So be kind and sometimes you're going to have to pray while you're praying for your spouse, pray God, give me the right attitude with my spouse. Help me be a reflection of your love and grace instead of just my own flesh getting in the way and my own frustration getting in the way. Like, let me really love them the way that you love them, Jesus and let them see that a glimpse of that through, through me.
I love what Andy Stanley said about this. He said your spouse should be able to know how much God loves them by the way you treat them. Oh, that's good.
Like when I first heard that, I thought, wait, wait, what? Like, and he said, if your spouse has no idea what Jesus is like, they should be able to think like the way my wife or my husband loves me. If Jesus loves me like that, then I want to know him. But we tend to be what, and this is me, like I tend to be like, you should do this and you should be getting in the word. And I've done that with our kids too. Like, especially with teenagers, I remember I was like, you guys, we should be in the word and let's do this. And you know, it's like I pulled out my ball bat and I was like, here's what we're doing now. And I realized like they'd have this glazed look in their eye, like how here she goes again on her soap box. But then as I was praying, I felt like was God was saying exactly what you're saying, Dave, show them, show them how much you love Jesus.
Don't tell them what they should do. Let them see it in your own life. And so I just started saying at the dinner table naturally, it wasn't contrived by, let me tell you what God's showing me today. Let me tell you about how I was in the grocery store and I paid for this lady's groceries today because I felt God say that she does that all the time.
I love it. But then I'll have these stories of these God encounters. And that's when I remember our kids were like, what did you do? Like are you crazy mom? You know, like I'd stop on the side of the road for somebody that needed help if it was a woman or, you know, just things that I felt like God was stirring in me not to condemn or to think, oh, she's so amazing because I also shared my struggles. I think too, as a couple to talk about your faith journeys, what did your faith look like growing up? Yes.
How did you come to believe or not believe what happened in your life? I think that reveals a lot. Do you guys, have you found that too? Absolutely.
And it all, it's about that vulnerability, being willing to talk about it, but not judging each other. Right. Because, you know, a lot of times we do come from very different backgrounds and you know, I mean, I'll just say ours, like Dave grew up in a home where he went to church every Sunday, probably a lot of Wednesdays was heavily involved in his youth group. And I grew up in a home that I would consider faith friendly, but not necessarily a Christian home. And we would go, we were CEOs, we go on Christmas and Easter only. Yes.
Yes. You know, it was, it was friendly. Like, I mean, I could talk about God, like once I came to the faith at 12 years old, I'm, I'm grateful. I had parents who would drop me off at church to go to youth group. And you know, the way that my parents, and I want to say this to anybody listening to if they have a spouse who doesn't yet believe in Jesus, if you are bringing your kids to church and they get involved in things at church, it's a great opportunity for your spouse to go and to see what God is doing in your child's life. And you never know if that's going to actually bring them closer to the Lord. And that's actually what happened with my parents.
And also many of my friends' parents is they would come and they would see me sing in the, in the show choir at church or, or, you know, they would come and help me volunteer for whatever activity we were doing. And, and, you know, don't, don't count God out on them. I think we're thinking we're the ones that it's our responsibility and we do play a role, but God loves them more than we even love them.
Right. And so just pray for them and know that God, you know, who started that good work in them, that little seed and you're a big part of that little seed, you know, he's gonna, he's gonna continue to work in them. But I think, I love what you said, Anne. I think making faith and following Jesus as real and, and just, just real, you know, right before their eyes and not using Christianese like a language they don't understand that they're like, that's weird. They're part of a cult, like just being very real and talking about what God is doing in your life. It shows them, you know, it kind of is giving them that little taste and see that the Lord is good and just pointing it out, like, see what God has done. I was praying for that for us, like that financial breakthrough. I've been praying for that. Like you heard me pray for that or, you know, just pointing it out and saying like, you know, God's with us, not being weird about it, but just saying, look, you know, God's working and then leave it there.
Cause God's going to do the rest. So talk about your, your spiritual relationship in your marriage. Cause I know there's couples listening. Like we are both believers. We do go to church together, but sometimes we struggle to connect as a couple spiritually. We call it in our vertical marriage, but going vertical.
Yeah. How do you, how do you guys do that? There is something really intimate about praying together and the couples who aren't doing that, I feel like they're missing out.
I was reminded about this and how intimate it can be. My, my parents right now who are just kind of faith heroes of mine and heroes for a lot of ways, a lot of reasons, you know, dad, my dad's been through like just a terrible year and a half. You know, he had a near, a near death heart incident, and then he had a cancer diagnosis and he had, um, deal with that. And then right out of that, he had a staph infection in his knee that basically has crippled him for the last year where he hasn't, he'd been in terrible pain. He hasn't been able to walk and it's just been a really painful process of getting that under control.
He's finally coming out of that. But in kind of the worst part of it where he was in this agonizing pain and he'd be laying there on the couch and he had like whatever pain medication he could have for the day and there was nothing else he could do. And he's just in agony and, you know, and I would hear stories from him and mom about them just holding hands and you know, with tears in both their eyes, them just praying these, these heartfelt passionate prayers together for God's strength. And them talking about those moments now as, um, as painful as they were some of the most intimate moments of any kind they've ever shared in their marriage. And I feel like when a couple will bring whatever they're facing to God, the gratitude in their heart for what's going on or the gut wrenching pain of we don't even have the words Lord, but just we're going to hold hands and cry together and call out to you sharing that in faith and knowing that Jesus is right there with you in the midst of it. It is some of the most intimate moments a couple can share. And so we try to encourage, you know, our set, remind ourselves of that and then encourage other couples to not get out of the habit of seeking God together.
And yeah, it's an individual thing. We each are on our own, have to seek the Lord. But as a married couple, we have this unique, beautiful time of, to be a court of three strands where it's a husband and wife and the Lord to say, let's, let's seek the Lord together. And in doing that, the closeness we feel not only with him, but with one another is, is really something special.
And it doesn't have to be like, I think some people are intimidated. Like I don't have all this deep theological language. I don't know what to say. It's like, listen, just talk to your heavenly father. He loves you.
Your father in heaven loves you. Talk to him like you would talk to your best friend in the world. And if you'll just come to him with a heart of faith together, it's going to do wonders. And it's going to take probably one spouse, you know, initiate it. And so if you're the spouse that, that maybe is a little more comfortable in that area, then be the one to initiate and then just be so supportive of your spouse in that journey as they pray, like encourage them and just talk about what it meant to you to hear them talk to God and, and how it brought you closer to the Lord in that moment and closer to your spouse too. And it really encouraged them in that and build that up instead of making your spouse feel bad for not, you know, praying as much as you or whatever.
Yeah. Build each other up and those moments can be really special. I think too for women, I know that I went through a phase of being bitter that Dave wasn't initiating and then I would think, oh well, he's the leader. He's supposed to initiate prayer.
Who wins in that? Like, Sam has just won, so I wouldn't pray and Dave wouldn't pray because he's asleep feeling great about everything. And I'm sitting over there, you know, feeling bitter about the whole thing. And instead of doing that, I remember as I was kind of complaining to God, like there, he fell asleep and we were supposed to pray. I remember God just nudging me. He's like, why, why don't you just pray?
He fell asleep. Go ahead and pray. And so I feel like, oh yeah, God got that victory because I just put my hand on Dave, prayed out loud and, and he didn't mean to fall asleep, you know, he just fell asleep. And so I think it's really important that if God presses it on your heart, just initiate. And if you have a spouse that's not a praying kind of person, maybe they don't even have faith, still there's something so sweet about your spouse putting their hand on your shoulder at night saying, Jesus, thank you for my spouse.
Thank you that he's a good man or she's a great wife or whatever. You're praying positive words over them. That just does something to melt the heart and make you responsive to God because God is always loving us.
Right. Yeah, I was thinking, you know, where we started was Matthew 7. And it's really interesting when you look at that passage and think, okay, what did Jesus say the wise man does compared to the fool? And I've read it at church over times and tried to see if people noticed I took something out.
Nobody ever notices. I'll say something like this, hey, you know, Matthew 7 is amazing. It says, you know, everyone who hears these words of mine is like a wise man who built his house on the rock and nobody realizes that's not what he said.
He had to put it into practice. He said everyone hears these words of mine and does them or puts them into practice. And that's the difference because I think we think the spiritual part of our marriage is go to church, get in a small group, which obviously is awesome.
It's wonderful. But then we're like, okay, that's it. We've got this spiritual thing.
We go to church, you know, once a month or twice or, you know, we got the kids in the kids program. Never thinking, wait, wait, wait, wisdom is I'm going to apply what I'm not a hearer, I'm a doer. And everything you're talking about right now is like, no, let's put this into practice. Let's pray together.
Let's not talk about it, not listen to it. Let's do it. And Dave, you said in a previous program, start today. I remember you saying start today.
I thought what a great word. Cause there's a couple listening right now is like, okay, I'll start that next month. No, start today. Right now, maybe it'd be the first time you ever prayed with your spouse to go vertical, to bring the spiritual part. And there's a husband I know going, yeah, but I don't really even pray out loud. I don't know how to pray.
And I've said many times, here's a prayer, grab her, grab her hand and say, help. Amen. Yeah. There you go. And you know, you sort of think, well, that's not a prayer. Oh yeah. We know that Jesus is rushing to any husband and wife who pray. We need your help. Yes. And that prayer will grow.
It'll, it'll morph into something maybe longer and who cares if it does or doesn't, but that's a laying a foundation to say, let's just start there. I got to say this. Thank you. You guys, the last three programs with you are going to help so many people.
You've already helped us. Thanks for being on Family Life. It's great to have you here. Oh, it's our honor to be here.
Thanks for what you're doing. We love it. I have talked to so many couples over the years who neglect or minimize the issue of spiritual intimacy in their marriage. And then when they start to experience marriage struggles or challenges, they're baffled. How could things have gone wrong in our marriage? And I often point back to this issue of spiritual intimacy as the strong foundation that is poured in a healthy marriage that helps the marriage weather all kinds of storms.
In fact, it goes back to what Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount when he said, if you build your house on a rock, you build your marriage on a spiritual foundation, then when the storms come, your house will stand. Dave and Ashley Willis have been our guests this week talking with Dave and Ann Wilson about the issue of spiritual intimacy, physical intimacy, emotional intimacy in marriage. The book they've written is called Naked and Healthy and it's a book we've got in our Family Life Today Resource Center. You can find out more online at familylifetoday.com. Order a copy from us if you'd like or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to get your copy.
Again, the book is called Naked and Healthy by Dave and Ashley Willis. And then don't forget, this week is your last opportunity to sign up for one of our upcoming Weekend to Remember Marriage Getaways and save 50% off the regular registration fee. We're making this offer available to Family Life Today listeners this week. You can go to our website familylifetoday.com and find out when one of our two and a half day getaways is coming to a city near where you live. Map out a weekend this spring where you can join us and then register now.
Again, you'll save 50% off the regular registration fee when you get in touch with us. There's more information online at familylifetoday.com and you can register online as well or call 1-800-FL-TODAY if you have any questions. Don't miss this opportunity to do something that will strengthen your marriage and to save a little money at the same time.
Go to familylifetoday.com and register for a Family Life Weekend to Remember Marriage Getaway. Now tomorrow we're going to explore what it would look like for a husband and wife to be living life on mission together as a couple. David and Meg Robbins will join us. We'll hear a little of their story and I hope you can tune in for that. On behalf of our hosts Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Bob Lapine. We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.
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