When Doing More Isn’t Always Better

Okay, so I've got a question for you. If a new follower of Christ came up to you, or if one of our boys came up to you and said, I really want to grow in my walk with God. I'm a brand new follower of Christ.

How do I grow best? What do I do? I'd say get to know and fall in love with Jesus.

How do you do that? He's already done that. How do I get to fall in love with Jesus? Let's get in an argument about this.

To know his word, be in prayer, like be with other believers. That's usually what I say. Yeah, and I think that's honestly what most people say. Oh, is that wrong?

I think it's right, but I think it's deeper than that. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson. And I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at familylifetoday.com or on our Family Life app. This is Family Life Today. I think it's almost mysterious how God grows us, and I think it's a great topic for all of us to understand, but especially his parents. So, I mean, that's the topic we're going to tackle today. It's a critical topic. But before we do, you know, we've got David Robbins, the president of Family Life in the studio.

And that's always fun to have. And it's year-end, you know, for Family Life and really important times. So, David, talk about why this is such a critical time for Family Life. We have such a special opportunity between now and the end of the year, where any gift that's given to Family Life is doubled dollar for dollar, where its impact can be doubled in order to reach more families. And when we talk about reaching families and helping them grow in the ways of Jesus, I'm reminded of a Family Life Today listener that shared with me this. They said, Would you consider giving to Family Life? Any amount matters, and it helps us double the impact because of that matching gift.

Please give if you can between now and the end of the year. And so if you'd like to jump in, here's what you do. Go to familylifetoday.com, and you can make a donation there. Or you can call us at 1-800-FL-TODAY and become a partner with us. It's going to make a huge difference in not only your life, but in your neighbor's life as well.

This is really such a great opportunity. So go to familylife.com. It is critical at this time of year, and we're hoping that you become financial partners, prayer partners with us. It makes everything happen here at Family Life Today. And today, we have Dane Ortlund back with us, wrote a book called Deeper, which is all about how does a follower of Christ grow in his relationship with Christ. Dane, welcome to Family Life Today. Dave and Anne, it is always great to talk with you.

A ton of fun, so thank you. Dane, you've written a book called Deeper, and the subtitle is Real Change for Real Sinners. And we have loved reading this.

Yeah, this is, I think it's a classic work on this topic. As you know, as you're a pastor in Naperville of Presbyterian, I've been a pastor for 30 years. This is something close to our heart as pastors helping lead people, and that is the biggest question they ask. And also, you and your wife have five kids. And so this is something like you're teaching your kids too, and you're modeling this to them.

So we've got to get you to dig into this. How do we change? Because I look at your subtitle, Real Change for Real Sinners, and I'm living with a real sinner. She's sitting right here beside me.

I think every person could say that. And I've been trying to change her, and it's not working. So there must be a deeper way. I tell you. Okay, so go where we were. If your kids ask you or anybody, how do I change, where do you start? Oh, man.

Well, that subtitle was very carefully chosen, guys. Real Change for Real Sinners, as opposed to what we all tend to naturally, intuitively think, which is the way I grow is really about kind of behavioral change, external change, doing something differently in my life, cutting carbs, getting up earlier for real sinners, as opposed to theoretical sinners. I mean, we all believe we are born sinful.

Okay, that's true. But actually, we are proving that doctrine every day in our actual lives. So I'm wrestling in this book with what the scripture says under the coaching of great thinkers from the past as to how do we enjoy real change, not merely behavioral, for real sinners, not merely theoretical sinners.

And actually, Dave, that's me. I am frustrated in my life with how little, how much it feels like two steps forward and five steps backward in a given day, week, or month. And I want to keep growing in this.

And I think many of us Christians, maybe we could say all believers, know what that is. I feel like I'm on a treadmill. How do I really begin to get traction in my spiritual life? Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people can relate to I'm 40-plus years into my Christian walk, came to Christ just before I was 20 years old. Well, I just told our listeners how old I am, didn't I? But here's the thing, you know, 40-plus years, and I resonate with what you said, Dane. It's like, okay, I've seen God transform my life.

I'm a different man than I was. But boy, oh boy, I thought I'd be a lot farther along than where I am. And like you said, it's like two steps, for me, 20 steps backward. Yeah, exactly, Dave. I know what you mean. And I think I'm probably going to die one day still feeling that way. So praise God for the gospel. But to loop back to what you said a minute ago, what would I say to my kids when they come to me?

Or to someone who sits down in my office here in Naperville and says, you know, I'm really struggling. How do I grow? There's a hundred things to say, but here's number one on the list. Number one on the list is exactly what Anne said at the top of the show here. Oh, did you hear that? I got something right.

I did not hear that. Okay, keep going, Dane. Who is the Lord Jesus? We grow by going deeper into the Lord Jesus and what was true of us at our conversion, not by graduating on to other tricks, tips, and strategies. Who is Jesus? Ephesians 3, 8. The unsearchable riches of Christ. I've come to believe the way that we grow and get traction in the Christian life is by sinking more deeply into who Jesus in all his multifaceted wonder is as our Lord, Savior, Friend, and Deliverer. So that's the banner over which I would want to frame everything about how we grow.

Well, I thought it was intriguing, like, even as you say that. One of the things you also said is the basic point of this book is that change is a matter of what you said, Dane, going deeper. Christian growth is bringing what you do and say and even feel into line with what in fact you already are. Right. Real change occurs through this reality, the life of God in the soul of man.

Talk about that. Oh, guys, when we read the New Testament, there's actually not that much about growing. I mean, it's there.

It's there. We want to grow up into him who is the head that is Christ, Ephesians 4, and so on. But for example, to take 1, 2, and 3 John, there's not a word about growth in those three letters. Here's the consistent ringing message of the New Testament, and growth slots in under this. The message of the New Testament for the Christian life is be who you now are. I already have, by the grace of God, as someone united to Jesus Christ with the Holy Spirit dwelling in me. I have everything I need to grow.

I don't need to look outward and elsewhere. Yes, we need to be part of a local church and have a community. There's all kinds of footnotes to this. But the point of the New Testament is you are now a son or a daughter of God, justified, adopted, and reconciled. Live in light of it. That's who you are.

Walk in light with who you are. That's the consistent rhythm of the New Testament. Well, talk about that then. If you are saying growth is be who you now are, part of me thinks, oh, that's an inward look at myself, not an upward look at who Jesus is. So balance out those two perspectives. That's a great objection, Dave, that some are dealt with saying. And the answer is, on the one hand, the way we be who we now are is by learning more resolutely all the time to look out of ourselves at the Lord Jesus, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, Hebrews 12. But here's the point. As we go through the Christian life, what we're doing is, here's someone, they've really hurt me and offended me.

How do I deal with that? The answer is forgive as I have been forgiven. How do I bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit?

I don't get on fruitoftheholyspirit.com and click sign me up. I recognize the Holy Spirit is within me. I simply need to keep in step with who I now am. I have been lifted out of the old age and parachuted into the new age. I still live in the old age in the sense that the flesh is still strong in me. I still sin.

I'm still fallen. Yes, but my ID card spiritually says in heaven. I need to now live in light of what is already true of me. The reason I'm putting it this way, guys, is it's liberating. It's freeing. I don't need to, like, so much achieve some new level of holiness.

I just need to, when I'm done with this interview, walk out of my office and love others mindful of how audaciously, invincibly, and permanently loved I am by God. But, Dane, I hear that and we know that, like, intellectually. We hear it. We agree with it. We know it's sound biblical teaching. Why do we fail and why don't we live like that? Because we are real sinners. So this is, hey, guys, here's one of the things I wanted to say in the book.

This is under a chapter called acquittal. What I wanted to say is if you want to grow in Christ and you're frustrated because you're not, that's a sign that God is in you. That itself is hope giving. Okay, number one.

Number two. One key way, Anne, that we keep growing is by never losing sight of the good news, the gospel, that got us in in the first place. We're going to be stumbling and battling our way forward. We're going to be messing up all the time. And one key way that we get traction in the Christian life is by constantly returning to pressing refresh on the good news, the scandalous gospel that got us in. That is never irrelevant. It's not like we need that to get in and then we move on to other things and then we die one day and we need it again then.

No, it's what keeps us in the air all the way along. I think that's so true. Like, I'm thinking of myself.

If I'm super busy and stuff's going on and I'm just like running hard, my schedule is so crazy. I'm not getting a chance to spend time with Jesus. I find myself struggling because when I am with him and I see him and I'm experiencing and reminding myself of his great love, that is what changes me and it motivates me. And that's what draws me back to him because I need to be reminded daily, sometimes hourly of that love, because I feel like the world is constantly making us feel like we are failing, we are failing, we are failing. And so I think you're right. To go deeper is seeing Jesus reminding us of the gospel and all that he's done and paid for us. I love that, Anne.

I agree strongly. And just to add a little brief footnote onto that, we don't change by focusing on change. We change by focusing on Christ and change comes in the back door.

We don't mainly grow by thinking about, oh, am I growing or not? I mean, now that becomes what Dave was saying, really self-reflective, like we're holding up a mirror to ourselves all the time. But what if instead of a mirror, we were holding up a window looking at Christ? That's actually what changes us, beholding him.

Yeah, and I loved how you opened the book doing that for the reader. Page 22, you say, but let me ask you to open yourself up to the possibility that one reason you see modest growth and ongoing sin in your life, if that is indeed the case, is that the Jesus you are following, I love how you wrote this, is a junior varsity Jesus, an unwittingly reduced Jesus, an unsurprising and predictable Jesus. You know, I've said many times as a pastor, it's not the size of your faith that matters, it's the size of your God.

Amen. You know, and it's like we always think I need bigger faith, I want to grow my faith, and yet it's like, oh, faith can be mustard seed size, but if it's in the right object, if we understand who Jesus really is. So you take the early part of your book and say, let me show you who Jesus is. Talk about any one of those attributes, because you walk through several that I've never seen written the way you wrote it. So talk about them. I'm going to say to our listeners, like, listen in on this.

We all need to be reminded of this because it changes us. Well, here's one way I would start to answer that question, Dave, and thank you for that, guys, is the Jesus we're bored with is not the real Jesus. If you're bored with Jesus, the problem is you, not him. I'm not talking to you two, but anyone, and myself at the top of the list, why do I just get so flat and like ho-hum about the Lord Jesus?

Because I don't see who he really is. The real Jesus is not boring. The real Jesus is irresistible and inexhaustible. And that's what I wanted to do in the first chapter, is just try to draw out some ways that the Lord Jesus looms larger than we realize.

So, for example, one little section there was reflecting on the intercession of Jesus. That's a big theological word, but the New Testament gives it to us. And all that means is Jesus is not twiddling his thumbs in heaven right now, and he did his real job 2,000 years ago, and now he's exhausted his job description. No, he's in heaven before the angels, in the court of heaven before the Father, interceding on our behalf. It doesn't mean he's making us any more saved. What it means is he is applying our full salvation in the court of heaven. In other words, here I am, here's Dane stumbling his way and sinning his way through his little messy life. And not only is it true that Jesus Christ died for me, and therefore I am justified.

I'm free to leave the courtroom. It is also true he's interceding for me, and therefore he is reminding the whole host of heaven of just how justified, forgiven, and safe I am. So I don't think we talk about that enough, guys, the intercession of Christ.

It's wonderfully comforting. Yeah, and I love when you talked about that in the book. He said the reason he's interceding is we are still sinning.

Yes. It isn't like we came to Christ and he's done interceding. He's still interceding because right now we're still stumbling along, like you said. Talk about befriending.

I love that aspect when you wrote about that. Well, we say in our evangelical world, and we should, that the Lord Jesus is our Lord and our Savior. Hallelujah. Amen. But that's not the only thing to say about him. He could be our Lord and our Savior, and really we functionally look at him more like an employer.

But actually he says, John 15, I no longer call you servants. I call you friends. We've diluted the category of friendship through Facebook and other things, but think of what the word friend means. Here's someone who is with me going through my life shoulder to shoulder with me. He's not only above me. He's not only within me. He's next to me navigating life at my side. He is my friend. He always lets me in and never lets me down, and here's the glory of it. He never misunderstands me.

Can I put it that way? We have friends, and they nod and smile and say, let me pray for you, and they understand partially, and everyone ever fully exhaustively understands 100 percent all the weirdness going on inside of me that is making life hard, even a spouse. Jesus Christ is the friend of sinners, and he always understands us perfectly, perfect solidarity.

So that's gloriously comforting. So, I mean, as beautiful as you describe this image of who Jesus really is, here's my question. Why do we forget this?

Why does that get lost? I mean, I wish I was talking for somebody else, but I'm talking for me. I know the things you said. I think I've understood them. I've read them in Scripture. I've taught them.

You've studied them in Greek and Hebrew. Yeah, and so often in my life, it's like I live without that vision of Jesus present in my mind. It's so true.

Me too, Dave. I mean, we're like leaky buckets. It's just constantly leaking out of us, or we're like, it's like this. If I shift my heart into neutral, I drift away from wondering, being startled and surprised, and praising the Lord Jesus Christ, worshipping my way forward into change. So I have no idea what the answer to your question is. None.

If you figure it out, tell me. But we're fallen. We're sinners.

I mean, it's just who we are. So really the main thing that we need to have sort of as the banner, the umbrella over what we're saying, as we're talking about how we change, is that God has changeless embrace of us, despite our changing levels of sanctification and growth and obedience. There's something unchangeable, and that's the Lord's own hug. That's the Lord's own pulling of us into his own heart and our safe and secure adopted status as his children. So your question, because it is so hard to answer, is why we must always be grabbing onto the gospel and never letting go of it as we're wrestling with why we are so weird and bad at growing.

But I think too, as a family, as a husband, as a wife, and with our kids, I think the thing that our kids see, though, is that wrestling. And I think that's okay that we continue to run after Jesus. We might fall down. We're scraped.

We're skinned. But to see us get back up and to continue to pursue and run after Jesus, I think our kids see that, and that's important. Amen. And I am screwing up all the time as a dad and a husband. Okay, that's true. At the least, could my wife and my kids see someone who is repentant?

Yeah. Someone who has humility in the wake of screwing up. What I want is a home where pretense is low rather than a home where pretense is high, and we're all faking it. I'm yelling at them in the minivan all the way to church, and then we pull into the parking lot. I say, everyone paint a smile on now. That's pretense.

I don't want that. And I want my kids to grow up and say, you know, my dad screwed a lot of things up, but when he did, he apologized. So that was a real Christian who was raising us in our home.

So I agree with what you just said, Ann. And how would we in our homes and our marriages and our families be different if we went to Scripture, not as a spiritual discipline for growth, although that will be a byproduct, if we went to Scripture merely to get a real good look at who God is through Jesus? I mean, that I mean, if I'm a husband listening today, that's my action step. If I'm a wife, I'm like, go grab your Bible, open it up and say, God, show me who you are. And you will see him in a way maybe you haven't seen. And that will change you and change your family and change your legacy. That one action step is that critical.

Amen. I grew up and saw my mom on the couch downstairs every time I groggily stumbled downstairs as a kid with her cup of tea. And her Bible opened every single morning.

She was doing what you were just describing, David. It's marked me for life. The Bible says about itself that the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two edged sword. The Bible does surgery on us, cutting away what doesn't need to be in our lives and helping to strengthen what does need to be there. As we think about New Year's resolutions and about change in 2022, we want to pursue that which is real and substantive, not that which is just cosmetic. We want to change on the inside, not just change our behavior. That's what Dane Ortlund addresses in the book that he's written called Deeper. The subtitle is Real Change for Real Sinners.

That includes all of us. And we have copies of Dane's book available in our Family Life Today Resource Center. This would be a great book for you to start off the new year as you think about the changes you need to see in your own heart and life. Go to familylifetoday.com to order your copy of Deeper Real Change for Real Sinners by Dane Ortlund.

You can order online or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to get your copy. Again, the website familylifetoday.com. Or you can call 1-800-358-6329, 1-800-F as in Family, L as in Life, and then the word TODAY. I want you to think for just a minute about times in your life when you have been waiting for important news, waiting to find out something that you've been wondering about, even praying about for a while.

The reason I want you to think about that is because here at Family Life, that's where we are today. With just a few days left before the calendar turns and we're in 2022, we are waiting to see if we're going to hear from enough Family Life Today listeners here at year end to be able to take full advantage of a $2.3 million matching gift that has been in place for us during December. We've heard from many of you. Thank you for those of you who have called or gone online to make a year-end donation. We are grateful for that. But we are waiting to see will we be able to finish the year with that $2.3 million matching gift fully secured. That's certainly our prayer and we want to ask you to pray with us for that. We also want to ask you if you have not made a year-end contribution, would you do that today? Go online or call and be as generous as you can be, knowing that not only is your donation going to be matched dollar for dollar, again, up to that $2.3 million total, but we're also going to send you as a thank you gift, a new devotional from our guest today, Dane Ortlund. He's written a devotional from the book of Psalms called In the Lord I Take Refuge, 150 devotions from Psalms, to help carry you into the new year and help you grow spiritually. The book is our gift to you when you donate today online at familylifetoday.com or when you call 1-800-FL-TODAY. We hope to hear from you.

Please pray for us that we're able to meet this matching gift total before the year ends here in a few days. And we hope you can join us again tomorrow when we're going to hear about why it's so important for us to pursue change, not on our own, but in community, why we need one another if there's going to be real change in our lives. Dane Ortlund joins us again. We hope you can be here as well. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Bob Lapine. We will see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.