I don't believe that we can love our kids well if we don't believe we're loved ourselves. And I think it's easy for us to say, oh, yeah, I know God loves me.
But do you truly believe that in the day in and day out? Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.
And I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at familylifetoday.com or on our Family Life app. This is Family Life Today. I can remember when we had two teenagers in the house. The other one wasn't quite a teenager. But I can remember there was this atmosphere with the boys that I felt like I'm bugging them a lot, like they're irritated with me a lot. And they were irritated with me.
Yeah. And I didn't know if that was a teenage thing or I was doing something. And so we sat down at the dinner table one night and I said, guys, I would like to really just have you be truthful with me and tell me, is there anything that I'm doing that's really bugging you right now? And the oldest one, who's very truthful, he said, well, yeah, there are some things that you're doing that are bugging me. I'm like, oh, OK, like, let's let's hear it. And he said, I think it's so irritating that you're constantly telling me when to go to bed at night.
I think he was 15 or 16. He said, you're on me all the time. Like, is your homework done? Do you need to get to bed?
You have a test tomorrow or you have practice tomorrow. You need to go to bed. He said, I think I'm old enough that I should be able to determine that myself. And I said, OK, that's legitimate. Like, you're right. You're old enough that you can make those choices.
What else? And he said, I just think it's the dumbest rule that girls can't be here with me alone when you and dad are gone. And I said, oh, OK, well, that's not changing. But let's talk about it, you know. And so I think that's a great thing to do once in a while is just to talk to your kids about what's going on.
If I feel tension between us. Yeah. And, you know, obviously, one of the hardest things to do is parent. It's awesome.
It's wonderful. It's really, really hard conversations like that. You know, the toddler stage, you name it. And you're constantly analyzing yourself like, am I doing this right?
I don't know. And you need help. So we've got help in the studio today with Crystal Payne. She's back with us again. You wrote a book called Love Centered Parenting. So we're really glad to have you back. Welcome back to Family Life Today.
Thank you so much for having me back. The subtitle of Crystal's book is The No Fail Guide to Launching Your Kids. Which everybody wants a no fail guide, you know. And I think many people know you as the money saving mom. Right.
Is that what it is? MoneySavingMom.com. But you've written a book called Money Making Mom. Dave wants me to read this. Can you not make some money for us?
Save some money? I'm fascinated by that, which is awesome. And you're a New York Times bestselling author. But more importantly, she's the mom of four kids and you're fostering one right now.
Yes. Your oldest is 16. Your youngest is one. You are doing it, girl. Like, way to go. I don't know how you get time to write.
I mean, not only your mom, wife and children, but you got foster kids and they're small. Way to go. God is just so faithful. And that's the thing I think with saying yes, with writing this book, this was a yes to God's call. I didn't want to write this book. I really honestly fought writing this book. Didn't you say? You said, I'm done writing.
Yes. In 2015, the book that you keep talking about, Money Making Mom, came out and I said, I'm done. This is too much for me to be writing and running a business and having family. And so I just said that it set the writing aside for a few years. And actually, in 2016, I declared it my year of rest and I said no to almost everything that was not an essential thing in my life. And God just did a bunch of work in my heart in that year and then just really changed my perspective on so many things that year. And so then whenever the opportunity for this book came around, it was one of those things like, you know you're supposed to say yes, but you're coming up with a whole laundry list of reasons why this isn't a good time. Are you sure? I'm sure somebody else.
God, you've called somebody else to it. But after a lot of prayer, we just really felt like, yes, this is what God has called our whole family too, because it's not just about me writing this book. It was the whole family being willing for me to share their stories, like the kids being willing for me to share their stories and my husband being willing to have to pick up the slack because writing and launching a book is a lot of work.
But God was so faithful. And like I told you earlier about writing this book in little snippets of time, we had just brought home a newborn from the hospital that we were fostering. And then four weeks later, I had a baby. And so we had these two little newborns in the middle of the pandemic. And so we were home a lot, which was great. Crystal, you need to come over on my lap and I'll give you a background.
You're amazing. But it was just I was like, OK, God, here's what I have to offer you. These little 15 minute snippets of time, often in the middle of the night. And that's when this book was written.
And so I can't take any credit for any success of the book. It's all God. But how he's so faithful when you step out and say yes to something that he's calling you to. And he takes your five loaves and two fish and he just expands it far beyond what you can ever dream. That's a great way to say it.
And we've already covered this week the story of as the book opens up. And you are so honest, but, you know, you end up with a child who's suicidal, you end up in an E.R. and then counseling. And so where we've already been is you realized even through that whole thing that you were sort of parenting based on what people thought of you, reputation. And then you have a transformation that takes place, not in a day, but over time to love centered. Obviously, the title of your book, Parenting. What is love centered parenting? We know what reputation centered parenting is.
I think we've all done it. But what's love centered? So for me, it really had to go back to understanding how much I'm loved by God, because I don't believe that we can love our kids well if we don't believe we're loved ourselves.
And I think it's easy for us to say, oh, yeah, I know God loves me. But do you truly believe that in the day in and day out? When something happens where you've made a mistake, what are your first words to yourself? Oh, such a failure. I'm always failing. Are you constantly saying things to yourself that are derogatory, that are putting yourself down, that are not what God says about you? And I realized that I carried around these lies because that's what they are, that I believed of not being good enough, that I was a failure, that I was a disappointment to those closest to me. And I carry those around and those became my labels that I wore and that I led with. And so in every situation, when I would walk into a room or how I was parenting or in my marriage or in relationships or in my business, it was all about letting those lies cloud the way that I lived. And I wasn't living as loved.
I think it's really I think this point is huge to come to an understanding and even a realization and thinking through what do I think? What is my self-talk? I gave a talk to women one time because I realized I wasn't the only one that was having this negative like, oh, you shouldn't have done that. You're a failure or you're dumb or you're a bad mom.
And I took these sticky notes and I just wrote these derogatory words and I stuck them all over myself. And I said, I really didn't realize that this is what I'm thinking all day long. And other moms were saying, me too. How did you realize this is what was happening in your mind? Well, it really goes back to when the therapist said to me, I feel like you're trying so hard to fix your child.
What would it look like to walk with them instead? And I dug into where that was coming from and I realized it was I was chasing after affirmation from other people and even from God because I felt like I wasn't enough. And that was rooted in the fact that I didn't believe that I was truly loved. And I was listening to a podcast.
It was the Trim Healthy Mama podcast. They had a guest on and she was talking about this negative self-talk and she said that a question she started asking herself was, how would loved me live? How would loved me act? And that just really hit me because I knew in that moment as I was hearing that I don't believe truly to the depths of my soul that I'm loved. I can say it, but in my everyday life, how I'm living, I'm not living from that. And so how would it change the way that I walk into a room, that I interact with other people, that I parent if I believed that I am truly and wholeheartedly loved by the creator of the universe? Because I am. And what does God say about me?
He says, I'm redeemed, I'm chosen, I'm beautiful, I'm forgiven, I'm loved. And if I can camp in that, I don't have to be trying to get that from other people. And so it completely changes the way that I parent because then I can just rest in God's love for me and let His love flow out of me to my kids. And so then if they've made a mistake, I don't have to be thinking, oh my goodness, what is so-and-so going to be thinking or playing it out in fear of how this mistake is going to affect them in the future or be frustrated with them because this mistake is going to really mess things up in our life. Like I talked about so much of the way that we parent is rooted in our pride and our fear and our selfishness. But I can just love them in that moment because of how much I am loved and I can let God's love flow through me to that child.
And it really changes the way that I approach my child because I'm approaching them from this posture of knowing how much I'm loved, resting in that love, and then loving them right where they're at. So walk us through that process because I'm guessing that you didn't read a couple verses one night and like, oh, I am loved. How did you replace the lies? And I'm guessing it took a while.
It did. It was definitely a process. And I would say it was a two-year process of one realizing that I was believing these lies because you first have to recognize that. But then I had to replace them. And so it was this actual process of I would hear something in my head.
A lot of times I'm doing my makeup or my hair in the morning and I'd be thinking back and psychoanalyzing, you know, some conversation I'd had or something that had happened. And I would hear that you're a failure or you really messed that up. And to call out first, that's a lie because I'm believing. Now, maybe I made a mistake, maybe I need to own something, but that doesn't mean I am a mistake.
Maybe I did fail in something, but that doesn't mean that I am a failure. And so calling out the lie and saying that's a lie, I would literally verbally say that's a lie. It might sound cheesy, but I think claiming that and so that I am basically saying, no, that does not have power over me. That's a lie. And then what is the truth? So let's say that I had responded in anger towards my child the day before and about a situation.
And then I'm, you know, the next morning I'm thinking about it and I'm just like, I'm just failing as a mom. No, that's a lie. What is the truth? Well, yesterday I got angry at my child and I need to go back and ask forgiveness, but that doesn't change the fact that I am loved by my creator. He loves me so much and I can trust him that he has given me everything that I need to love my child well, to walk with my child well. I am not failing as a parent. And so I'm going to go ask my child forgiveness.
I'm going to ask God to forgive me and I'm going to rest in how much I'm loved by him. And so it was a two year process of recognizing the lies, calling it out a lie, and then replacing it with the truth. Now, I got to just ask, does every mom sort of do this? Because as I hear you talk, Crystal, I'm like, I've heard Anne say similar things. And even your chapter about mom guilt in our book and then our sons wrote in our book, which is really pretty cool. And, you know, they're saying, yeah, I know mom used to feel so bad.
It really wasn't that bad. Because I used to write them apology notes after I apologized because I was still burdened with this guilt and shame. And I'm not saying that guys and men and dads don't experience this. We do. But man, hearing you two talk, it's like, wow, this is a common thing that happens for moms.
I think it is common. And as you were saying that, I thought, I thought of all the moms that I feel like they're warriors. I mean, moms have so much influence. I mean, we're looking at one.
She's sitting right here. You're talking about a warrior. So much power. Think about it. We're raising. And dads, too. But we're raising. Yeah, dads, too.
Make sure you get that in there. We're raising this next generation. And so if the enemy of our soul, the enemy of our marriage, the enemy of our family can come in the accuser of the brethren, if he can whisper lies to a mom that you're not enough, you're failing, you'll never do this right. Your kids will be so messed up because of you. I mean, if Satan can get us there, then we become crippled as moms and we are living in this place that Jesus never meant us to live in because he died for all of that. He never calls us a failure.
He never says that we're no good. He says, I died for you and I am enough. And you're my beautiful maid daughter of the king. Well, what's really interesting is, you know, when you look at a title like love centered parenting, you think it's like about this child. I'm going to love my child.
And you flipped it. It's so beautiful. It's like, I don't know.
It's obviously you're going to love your child, but you can't unless you experience and overflow the love of God. Right. That's the whole idea. Yes.
And I think so often we just want to get to the quick fix. Yes. And really being willing to do the hard heart work. That's where the change happens. Hard heart. That's good.
Yeah. Because we can't ultimately change our kids. We want to. We can exhaust ourselves trying to be their Savior and Holy Spirit. But that's only going to leave us feeling like a failure because we weren't called to be their Savior or their Holy Spirit. But we can focus on changing and growing and doing that work to uproot those lies and then living in that freedom to our kids. And I think that that is one of the most powerful things is them seeing God's love through us.
Because think about the example that we're setting for our kids. If we say, Jesus loves you, Jesus loves me, we're so loved by God. We sing about, you know, His love. We read the verses about His love. And then on a day to day basis, our kids hear us speaking all this negativity towards ourselves. We're not setting an example of what it looks like to live as loved. Well, in your book, you talk about life giving choices that we make as love centered parents. Let's talk about those a little bit.
And I love it because I'm a preacher and they all start with the letter L. So it works for me. The first one you talk about leaning in love. Is this what you're talking about?
Yes. And so for me, it's when there's a situation that you need to address on the micro level or the macro level, we can take these life giving choices instead of trying to fix our child. Because I think that's so much of what we want to go to is, you know, just that bubble wrapping, that overprotecting, that fixing our kids.
So what can we do? And so I in the book, I talk about leaning in love, listen well, lead with humility and let go. All of those four choices are things that they're not dependent upon our child's behavior. They're not dependent upon our child's choices.
They're not dependent upon the end result. They're just about our heart and how we walk with our kids. And this has really changed things for me. And it was interesting because when I was writing this book, I actually ask on Instagram, I'm the money saving mom on Instagram and I ask on my Instagram stories for people to fill in the blank. My job as a parent is to blank. I got hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of responses. And I would say that 98 to 99 percent of the responses are things that ultimately you have no control over as a parent. Like what?
Give us some examples. So my job as a parent is to raise kids who have strong character, who get great jobs and who go to heaven. I mean, when we start thinking about it, a lot of times that's how we view our job as a parent is to be their savior and Holy Spirit. So no wonder we're walking around feeling so exhausted and burdened because we're trying to be God in their life. We can't control. We can set a great example for them. We can talk with them. We can give them opportunities to learn these things.
But we can't change our kids hearts. And so for me, it was thinking, what can I do? Well, I can lean in and love. I can listen. Well, I can lead with humility and ultimately let go.
And there's so much freedom in parenting from that space. Earlier you talked about correcting and not connecting. Is this part of that connecting piece?
Yes. And so one of the things that I realized is that I was spending so much time, like I said, correcting, protecting, bubble wrapping, fixing, trying to go in and just tie it all up with a bow and get it all taken care of. But I was spending very little time connecting with my kids. And I think it's so easy to want our kids to come step into our world. Like, I'm going to Target.
Come with me. Like, we want to spend that one on one time. Nothing wrong with that. But if we really want to build that relationship, what does it look like to step into their world and really connect with them and care about what they care about and listen to them when they're little? Because if you listen to them when they're little, you're establishing that relationship for when they're older. And so that is how I want to parent from that place of leaning in and really loving them and thinking of what is underneath the surface when they're struggling, when they've made a mistake, when they have, you know, when they're fighting or they're arguing or they're talking back.
What's really going on there? It's leaning in and loving, then listening well, and then leading with humility and letting go. That listening well.
I know that when our son was, I think he was 28, when he came back to me and he said, Mom, I really wish that when I was in high school, you would have listened to what was going on in my life deeper in my heart. And I was like, what? What do you mean? He said, I just feel like you were so concerned with what I wasn't or was doing in terms of partying, in terms of girls, in terms of who I was hanging out with. I feel like you were lecturing me so much about that. But you weren't wondering, like, why are you so tempted here?
What's going on in your heart that you want to be accepted by anyone? And I remember going to bed that night thinking, oh, he's so right, because I was parenting out of fear. And I think if I had to do it again, I would do that. I would lean in and love and I would listen well. Now, I don't know if he would have had the capacity at that time to say, oh, well, my heart is, you know, so torn because I want to be loved by people.
I'm not sure he could have gone there. But I think just to put aside the rules, the regulations, what he was or wasn't doing appropriately, I wish I would have just connected more with his heart. Yeah. You know, as I'm looking at you had 10 practical ways to lean in and love and you've already said really the idea of it.
But one of them was just simple. Stop, look and listen. They don't need our productivity. They need our presence. And that's what, you know, one of our sons was saying to you.
And he said it to me as well. And I think it's so easy as a parent. You get so busy. You are concerned about their behavior. Right or wrong, you are. And it's part of our job.
But man, oh, man, they really do long just to be right. And so you've sort of got to figure out ways to be sometimes when their teenagers are pulling away. And it's like, you know, I remember with my sons, I knew what they were interested in. So if I wanted to spend time with them, all I had to do is connect to that interest. Hey, CJ, you want to go to Best Buy? Yes.
You know, you're going to buy me some because he was a tech guy. You know, Austin, you want to it was just each one was different. But it was really easy as a dad to pull back because they were pulling away, which they obviously should. But the other side is like, no, pursue, pursue, pursue in their sort of world because they may not be saying it or showing it, but they really do long for your presence.
Right. Well, I think, you know, when we're pursuing, pursuing from a heart of wanting them to know how much we value them, wanting them to know how much we care about them. But it's not pursuing them to be like checking up on you. Are you doing the right thing? You know, are you are you following the rules? And they'll sniff that out.
Yes. But pursuing them of I just I just want to be with you. I just want to sit with you. I think as as our kids get older, you know, just noticed just going and sitting with them or like you talked about, you know, what's something one of my daughters, she loves to shop. I am not a shopper. I mean, hello, money saving mom.
That's not my thing. She loves to go to the mall. And so to just say, hey, do you want to go to the mall with me?
We don't even have to buy anything. She's going to say yes. Being together and food is another thing when they're teenagers. It's like I feel like any time you're like Taco Bell, Sonic, whatever, you know, if you just say, hey, do you want to go get some?
It speaks love to them. And so looking for those ways. And there's so many times I'm talking to moms and they'll say, I don't I just don't know how to connect to my child. We have no interests that overlap. Don't look for the interests that overlap.
You go get interested in their world and what they're interested in. I'm learning how to play Rocket League right now. I'm terrible at it. Terrible at it. What is this? It's a video game with my son.
Horrible at it. But his friends now want to play with me, even though I'm so terrible. And I think it's just because it's like, oh, this cool thing. Your mom's going to play with us. And but just to be able to step into his world. And now when he's talking about that, I can understand it more. We were talking about some baseball thing earlier that I actually knew something about.
I don't play baseball, but I watch the YouTube videos with my son and I learn these things. And so then he can come to me and share something. And I'm like, you know, oh, yeah, I know what you're talking about, because I've even though it's not something that is my interest, I become interested in it. And so it feels like it can take so much time, but even just five or 10 minutes a day, just checking in with them and stepping into their world and caring about what they care about.
It's like you're making these little deposits into relationship that then they start coming to you and they start telling you things and just offering up information when you didn't even ask that you didn't even know anything about because you've set that place where they feel secure with you. Yeah, it's funny. The other day, I don't remember this. Something came up in our photo, you know, three years ago, 10 years ago. And remember the picture came up of me playing dodgeball.
Oh, yeah. With one of my sons in this tournament. I think he was in middle school. No, he was in high school.
He was in high school, but he was early high school. And I have a headband on. I'm painted up. I mean, I just look like an old man trying to be and you're like, what were you doing? And I'm like, there it is.
I was doing a crystal set. I was leaning in and loving them. It really was one of those things where he said, Dad, play with us. Because he knows you're really good at it. There's a part of a lot of dads would say, no, that's your thing.
You should do it. And I get it. There's times where it is their thing. But it was one of those, no, this is probably a memory worth pursuing. And it was. Well, it's interesting, too, as you were talking, Crystal, I thought, just like you, Dave, of the hundreds of rebound basketballs I threw back to my son out in the driveway and we would just talk and then his friends would come over and I'm rebounding for all of them. And then we'd go out to lunch. And in that lunchtime, I remember purposely thinking I'm only going to speak life into him and I'm going to tell him how great he is. I'm going to tell him the gifts that he has.
I'm going to tell him how I anticipate how God's going to use him. And it was always interesting as teenagers, I could feel a distance. But after that time of being in their world and then kind of just speaking life over them, I felt like we were reconnected. And isn't that what our kids long for? And that's what we long for as parents. Yeah, I would just say, mom or dad, go shopping today with your kid, go rebound some balls, play video games, go play dodgeball or whatever it is. You know, we're old enough to know that you're going to blink and they're gone and you really are going to blink. And you're like, where did the time go? So you have today or this week.
I would just say get it done. That's great coaching from Dave and Ann Wilson today, along with our guest, Crystal Payne, talking about our involvement in our kids lives. When was the last time you had one on one time with one of your children where you weren't correcting them, where you were affirming them, encouraging them, cheering them on, asking them questions about their lives?
All of us as parents need to be making that investment because, as Dave Wilson just said, we blink and they are gone. There's a great resource that Crystal Payne has written to help us as parents think about how we can intentionally love our kids. It's a book called Love Centered Parenting, and it's a book we're making available this week to Family Life Today listeners. Those of you who'd like a copy, if you can help us with a donation to support the ongoing work of this ministry, we'd love to send you a copy of Crystal's book. Family Life Today is here to provide practical, biblical help and hope for your marriage and your family every day. There are hundreds of thousands of people who are coming to us looking for biblical answers to the questions they're facing, looking for encouragement and fresh hope. And you make that possible for yourself and for others when you support the Ministry of Family Life Today.
So if you're a long-time listener and you've never made a donation, or if it's been a while since you've supported this ministry, reach out to us today. Make a donation online at FamilyLifeToday.com or call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com.
Our number is 1-800-358-6329, 1-800-FL-TODAY. Be sure to ask for your copy of Crystal Payne's book, Love-Centered Parenting, when you get in touch with us. Now tomorrow, Dave and Ann Wilson will continue the conversation with Crystal Payne, talking about what it looks like when our love for our children has to get tough. I mean, that's part of parenting, right? Sometimes we've got to get tough with them.
So what is that tough love supposed to look like? We'll hear from them tomorrow about that. Hope you can be with us. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Bob Lapine. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a production of Family Life, a crew ministry, helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.
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