So I would say probably the hardest thing in life to do is go through a tragedy.
Yes. But I think there's something worse. Oh. Even though I said it's the hardest. It's even worse to go through a tragedy alone.
Or trauma. Isolated. Yeah.
I mean, it's bad and it's dark, but if you've got no one to walk with you, it's really the darkest. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson. And I'm Dave Wilson.
And you can find us at familylifetoday.com or on our Family Life app. This is Family Life Today. It's almost as if when you're going through trauma and tragedy, you can't catch your breath.
You can't take a step and you don't even know how to sometimes take the next step. And I know that we've gone through some hard things and it helps so much when somebody comes alongside, puts their arm around you and just encourages you to take another breath and to help move your leg forward because you feel so stuck. Yeah. And so we have back in the studio with us today, Ron and Ann Deal and Brad and Jill Sullivan, who have already told us their story about walking through the death of the Sullivan's daughter, the Deal's son, the same year. I didn't know it was within nine days of each other, which was heartbreaking to hear.
And yet there's more to the story that we're going to jump in today. So welcome back to Family Life Today. I'm glad you're here. Thank you. Thank you. And if our listeners haven't heard the first half, I would really encourage you to go back and listen to their stories.
It's gripping, it's heart wrenching, but it's important to know the next steps. And Ron is no stranger to family life. I mean, he's the director of Blended, the best ministry in the world for blended families. I agree. Of course you agree. But no, I'm saying that because I say that all the time. We do. Everybody.
I mean, we were talking to somebody on the plane and they said they're blended. Do you know Ron Deal? You're like, yeah, of course you do. You know, because you just help so many people in that area. How many books have you written, Ron?
Number nine comes out later this fall. Wow. And then you're a kindergarten teacher. I am. And you're amazing. I have loved getting to know you. You're gifted. You're pretty spectacular. And you're the perfect person to walk with Ron.
You guys are a great team. Thank you. And Brad's a superintendent of school.
Yes. I'm in South Pike County School District in Murfreesboro, Arkansas. I have no idea where that is, even though we're sitting in Little Rock right now. So have you heard the only place in America where you can dig for diamonds?
It's in Murfreesboro. What do you mean dig for diamonds? There's a state park and you can go and literally dig for diamonds.
And if you find one, you keep it. Really? Yes.
And I'm guessing there's a lot of people. That's vacation there. Yes.
Sounds like it. The only town that I'm associated with is Delilah, Arkansas. And that's the hometown of Glynn Campbell. Oh. So a lot of people know about Glynn Campbell. Oh, yeah. I have some Campbells in my school, so.
I bet you do. And you guys have started a ministry. Tell us about that. Yes.
Yeah. The ministry is called While We're Waiting. And it's just like you said, it's a ministry that seeks to come alongside parents that have lost children. And is it a conference? Is it one-on-one?
What does it look like? Yeah, it's a retreat-based ministry. We host retreats around the country that are specifically for parents that have lost children. And you and Nan met there, right? We did.
Yes. Talk about that. Well, after we moved here and Ron took the job at Family Life, I was in a ladies' Bible study with Mary Herndon. And they all knew my story. I'd shared about Connor and I was really in the throes. It was deep.
I was in a hard spot at that point. How much time had passed since his death? Six years.
Let me stop right there. Six years, and you just said you're still in a hard spot. I was.
Some people were like, oh, come on, after six years. Oh, for sure. But you're still— I was so struggling. It's a marathon.
It is. It is not a simple journey. There are so many losses in life that you can relatively move through quickly. That's not true with the loss of a child. It's a very long journey, and that's why this ministry is so important. And you're not struggling five, six years later because of your lack of faith. No.
Right. I mean, a lot of people are like, well, if you just have more faith and you trust in God more, you would be through this by then. But you had incredible faith, and it's just hard. You're still grieving.
So grieving and moving to a new place where I have to introduce myself for the first time and tell my story. Everybody wants to know. How many children do you have? How long have you been married? How many children do you have? I'm picking out a house that doesn't have Connor in mind.
I was still in a hard season. And even you probably don't know what to say when they say how many children do you have. Right. Well, we do. What do you say? We say we have three.
We have three boys. And yet you either get the stone, nothing, or you get, oh, OK, or tell me more, you know. What's the best thing to say? Tell me more. Yeah. Or, I'm so sorry. Yeah.
Yeah. But don't ignore it. Yeah, don't ignore the fact when somebody says, well, our oldest child is doing this and our youngest is doing this and our middle son died when he was 12. You can't at that point just say nothing. I mean, my encouragement to everybody listening would be to say, I'm so sorry.
And if you have courage, say, tell me about him. Tell me more about that. That's good advice. And just step into that space and let that parent talk. That's what they would love to do.
Yeah, that's what I was going to say. You're saying parents that have lost a child would love to talk about their child. Absolutely.
Absolutely. They want to talk about it. Say their name, text their name, you know, remember them. So, going back to the Bible study, Mary was pretty attentive. But one day she showed up on my doorstep and a very dear friend of hers had lost her son Jeffrey in a tragic accident. And Mary said, I need you to help me help Jeannie. And I said, Mary, sure, I will help you. So, I was helping Mary help Jeannie, but lo and behold, Jeannie really needed me. And so Jeannie and I got connected and we started texting, we started talking, we met a couple of times. And then she called me and said, hey, I'm coming into Little Rock and I'm going to a retreat in Hot Springs.
It's a mom's weekend at this retreat center for moms that have lost children. Would you come with me? And I'm like, well, can I?
And she's like, sure. So, we went and that's where I met Jill. And that's where we had a wonderful weekend at a While We're Waiting mom's retreat.
And it was amazing. I do want to add, While We're Waiting also has small groups that meet now throughout the country. And it's spreading like wildfire because there's such a great need. There are parents everywhere that have lost a child and just didn't know where to go, what to do with themselves. So, the retreats happen in various places now, also around the country that people can go to. And then there are small groups that people can be a part of.
Nan and I are actually leading a virtual group that includes some people from across the world. And it's just a place for people to go and be together. And the beautiful thing about this ministry is that all of it is free. The retreats and everything is free.
Generous donors come alongside and make it possible for people to get the help that they need. Well, it's interesting. You know, Nan, when you just a minute ago said you were going to go to this While We're Waiting retreat, I'm getting all emotional and I'm tearing up. Look at me, I got rid of it quick.
That's what I do. No, I mean, I'm thinking, why? And I'm like, my mom never had that opportunity. I thought, what a beautiful, beautiful gift you're given to couples and families that have gone through this trauma. It's like she, I can remember as a little boy watching her looking and going and longing to find somewhere she could grieve. Usually it was different churches. I don't know if she ever really found that.
And here you have provided. What a gift. It is, and let me brag on it because we've been to some grief groups that have been in a dark, cold basement. We've been at some places where the church doesn't want to talk about it. They'll talk about all those other things on Mother's Day, but we are not acknowledged.
You kind of have to go after it yourself. And I was so fortunate. God's provision for me, He sent me some wonderful women that were 10 years ahead, 12 years ahead. But this ministry ministers to us as parents.
They minister to the dads, the moms, the couples. And it is in an environment where you feel loved on, comforted. You are fed some amazing food. The rooms are beautiful.
The chairs are comfy. And you just feel like you go walk into a warm, wonderful hug. But the bonus is, is that God is at the center of it.
It's just been amazing in the short time that I've been with you all, that God's hand is on this ministry and He's growing it like crazy. So, Rabbi Jo, how did this idea come? I'm guessing it didn't happen within a month of Hannah's death. You had to walk and grieve and journey.
So, give us a story of where this originated. When Hannah was in hospice, she spent the last few days of her life in a hospice center in Little Rock. And, you know, when you're in a situation like that, everybody comes and they bring you food and they bring you gift cards and they bring you books and things like that. Lots of books. On grieving. On grief and loss and all of these different things.
And by the time we got home after she went to heaven, I had a stack of books this tall. And people mean well. Oh, yes.
They just don't know what to do. It's wonderful. But one of the books that was brought to us there at the hospice center was a book called Holding on to Hope by Nancy Guthrie. We know Nancy.
Yes. She's amazing. We had her on.
She is. I read the back cover of that book and kind of got an idea about her story and kind of put it back in the stack with the other books. Because early on, even though I am a reader, I was not in a place where I even could read. But after we'd been home for a little while and I was ready to read again, out of all those books I had been given, that was the one that I drew out of my stack.
And it was exactly what I needed to be reading. Because those of you that are familiar with Nancy's story, you know that she had two babies that were born with Zellweger syndrome, which is a terminal condition. Our daughter is a very different situation. She was 16 when she was diagnosed, but it was a terminal condition. And she talks a lot in her books about the sovereignty of God. And what do you do with it when your child is diagnosed with something terminal and you pray for healing?
You know that God can heal and sometimes does heal, yet he does not choose to heal your child. And those were the kinds of questions that we had been grappling with for a year while Hannah battled this cancer. And so I read that book. It was so, so beneficial for me.
I got on her website and I learned that she and her husband host retreats for bereaved parents in Nashville, Tennessee. I came to him with the idea and told him about it. And, you know, he was all in.
He's ready to go. He's the classic extrovert. I am the classic introvert. I am not a retreat person, which is funny because we do retreats all the time. But the thought of going to a retreat that was only other parents that had lost children was so appealing to me, way outside my comfort zone, but I knew it was something that we would really, really benefit from. So we signed up and went, and it was a wonderful experience.
There were people there from 11 different states in Canada, and our stories were all very different, yet the bond between parents that have lost children is strong and it's immediate. And we bonded with those folks. And, you know, before we even went to that retreat, we knew that God had a call on our lives.
We knew that we did not want to waste the storm that Hannah had prayed for. And we knew that we wanted to use this in some way. And while we were there, it was just like, this is something. We would love to recreate this concept of a retreat for bereaved parents and bring it back home to Arkansas. And so we came home and we talked about that retreat a lot, how much it helped us, and we prayed about it and said, you know, God, if this is something you want us to do, we're willing, but we didn't know how.
I mean, how do you start a ministry from nothing? And then God brought two people into our lives, Larry and Janice Brown, who go to our church. They had lost their son. He was a Navy SEAL.
He was killed in action in Afghanistan about a year after Hannah. One Sunday, we invited them to go to lunch with us, and they did. We told them about this retreat we had been to, and these people who we were meeting really for the very first time said, well, let's do it.
Brad, what did that feel like for you? Was there just an instant connection? Absolutely, and we found that since then that, you know, we go to lunch with someone or go to dinner with someone, and you look up and four hours have gone. And so we were in that booth for four hours, and at the end of that time, we had already talked about a name, and we'd already talked about a location for a retreat. First time you're together.
First time we're together. And that's the thing that we found out real quick, that we had comfort with other people that understood us. And we had families in our lives previous that had lost children, and we were reaching out to them. And it was just neat to see the people that God brought into our life and had similar stories that God knew we needed to see them.
You know, as Brad's talking, I'm thinking that needs to be said. Nobody fixes our grief. And nobody in the While We're Waiting ministry tries to fix anybody else's grief. The secret is community and sharing with people who have a similar grief.
It's that 2 Corinthians passage. We're comforting people with the comfort we've been given from God, and you're just paying it forward. You're just sharing it among others. There's a sense that somehow in that sharing that your grief somehow gets smaller. It doesn't ever go away. The intensity comes and goes over the seasons of life. It's always with you.
Your child is not here. But we're holding on with hope for that day when we get to be with them again. So somehow it helps. And I don't even know that we need to put any more words on it than that, than to just trust that the fact that God created church, and this is church in a way in a very specific need, and that experience is really, really helpful for us. I can imagine it feels, and again I'm projecting here, but it feels safe because when you share this story in a different group setting and they haven't experienced what you've experienced, you get all kinds of responses and many of them are wrong. They just don't know and they may say the wrong thing with the right intention. Here, you have a group that understands.
You almost know they're not going to get this wrong. They're not going to say the wrong thing because they have experienced what we've experienced and so there's this healing, right? Man, you had talked earlier about protecting your garden of grief.
What does that mean? Well, you have this garden with your child in it and their memories and their name and everything that's about them. When you lose a child, and you alluded to this earlier, I'm six years in and I'm still struggling, what's wrong with her?
Six months, a year after that first year, you all should be moving on and so you're not moving on. It's just you carry them throughout your whole life. It's like your other children. I mean, I have a son in Texas right now. I've thought about him today. He's not in front of me, but I've thought all about him today. He's in your garden. He is.
Absolutely. Connor's not here. There's not a day that goes by that I don't think about him. I see him in my kids at school. I said to one of the little boys in my class, he was wearing a Star Wars shirt and I said, Sawyer, loving that shirt today.
You are making me think about Connor and he gave me a big old smile. It's a garden that a lot of people want to trod on or they don't want to come in because it scares them. You've got lots of friends, family that don't want to have anything to do with it.
Even you go 12 years in and they don't want anything to do with it, so you're protecting that garden. When you're in a group of people that have lost children and you cry, they get it. And when you laugh, they get it. They're laughing, but they're still not over the loss of their child. Other people, you start laughing and you're in your mind thinking, they think I'm over this when I'm really not over this. So do I laugh in front of them? Do I not?
Am I right? It's a hard rollercoaster of emotions and you're the one that has to protect them and regulate them because nobody else can help you with them. And that's the thing I want to jump off of, what Nan just said, is because in our virtual group that met just a couple of weeks ago, we found ourselves talking with the parents about the importance of guarding and protecting your garden. I hate to see it, but as grieving parents, we have to just accept the fact that it's up to us to try and nurture the right relationships that will help us grieve. There are certain people that are advantageous to your grief journey and there are other people that really are not helpful. And you have to be very careful about what you share with whom. And that made me mad when I first discovered that as a grieving dad because I thought everybody else should be taking care of me. But the reality is I have to figure out who are the best people, what are the best situations, who do I share with, who do I not share with. And when you finally get a place like a While We're Waiting group, where you're completely free, you can let your hair down. I mean, think about what Nan just said.
I'm deciding whether or not to laugh in front of you because I don't want you to think that I'm over my son when I'm not over my son. Like, that's way too much work. I need a place where I don't have to think about that. I can just be real with whatever's there. You know, we talk about, well, what do you do with their clothes? Oh, I have a quilt.
Oh, I'd love to see it. We share pictures of each other's children's headstones and what we do each month. And some people go to the cemetery and other people don't go to the cemetery.
Like, we help people figure out their own individual grief journey. It's such a different language. And when you find somebody who's speaking that same language, you just want to be with them. And you feel like you're not going crazy.
I mean, we had the 40 books that came. But man, when I could talk to another mom and she was a little bit ahead of me and she would say, you're right where you need to be. I did the exact same thing. I just felt like, okay, I think I can breathe now. I think I can do this.
I know I don't want to do this, but okay, maybe I can make it. Yeah, what a gift from God this is because, as you've just shared, it's like you know what we're going through. And you can walk in a place and know I'm okay here. And like some people are ahead of you. You can be ahead of others.
It's just what a beautiful gift. Because we started saying the worst thing to do is go through a tragedy alone. You are providing a way for community to happen and heal people. Do you have stories of that?
Yes. You know, people really seeing God meet them because of what you've offered? We started doing a support group and lo and behold, this woman came from the Philippines. And she is six months in, seven months in.
And this is a virtual group. And then she stopped coming. I knew why. I knew exactly why. And I sensed in her where I was that first seven months.
In the closet, curled up in the fetal position, barely making it, trying to make it for my other kids. And I messaged her one day on Facebook. And I said, I know you can't come to the group, but will you talk to me?
And because of our connection, now I'm Zooming with her every other Saturday from the Philippines. And I know, I messaged her this week. And I said, I know you're barely holding on, but I'm praying for you. And God loves you. She messaged back, that was the only hope I had today, thank you. It's because I've been there that I could minister.
And because I have some legs underneath this now, that I can do it. But it's through this ministry that I met her. When our retreats run from Friday night through Sunday morning, and as people arrive on Friday night, they have this, many of them have this almost haunted look about them, heaviness all over them. Nobody wants to come to a retreat for bereaved parents.
Nobody wants to qualify for that kind of retreat. They never imagined that they would be in this position. Exactly. And they walk in and you could just see it all over them. We just bring them in and just love on them. We serve them comfort food on Friday night to just kind of, because everybody's got nerves on that first night. But you know, by Sunday, their entire countenance has changed.
They are lighter, physically lighter. Their faces are brighter. They have a little spring in their step and they don't want to leave.
They don't want to get there on Friday night, but they do not want to leave on Sunday because they have felt so safe. You know, every other social situation you are in as a bereaved parent, you have a filter on everything you say and even everything you see because everything comes through that lens of child loss. And when you walk into one of our retreats, that all goes away. The filter goes away, the mask goes away, and you can say anything, share anything without fear of judgment, knowing that everybody else in there is going to say, oh, me too, you know, oh, I've felt that same way.
It's just an amazing thing. And child loss is not a one-time event. It's not over when your child dies.
Your child is your future. So everything that happens from that point on is another loss. When our children didn't get to graduate from high school, when they didn't get to go to prom, when they didn't get to start college, when they don't get to get married, yet their siblings do.
They weren't at their brother's wedding the way you wanted them to be. Exactly, exactly. So it's an ongoing loss. It doesn't just end. You know, when you lose a parent, when you lose somebody that's an expected loss, that's just kind of the end. But because you've lost your future, when you lose a child, that's what makes it an ongoing loss. So there's something to grieve.
Yes. Always something to grieve. And I know, you know, as a pastor doing many, many funerals and some for the loss of a child, you want to be able to look at that parent and say, I have something for you. So how does somebody get a hold of this ministry? How do we send people to you? We have a website, and the website is whilewe'rewaiting.org. Of course, no apostrophe, so it's whilewe'rewaiting.org.
We also have a pretty large Facebook presence. We have a public Facebook page that's just called While We're Waiting. If you are a bereaved parent, though, we have a page called While We're Waiting, Support for Bereaved Parents. And if you have lost a child, you can request to join that page. It is a private page, and you have to answer some screening questions in order to be allowed in.
We have to do that because of spammers and things like that. We want to make sure you're a real person and that you have lost a child. And it is a wonderful community, that page. There are a little over 6,000 people on it at this point, and it is a clearly faith-based Facebook group.
I get on there every day and post something, a quote, a scripture, something to encourage people on the page and just to kind of keep the conversation moving in a positive direction. It's been a safe place for bereaved parents to gather. And so that's another place where we connect with a lot of parents. But to find out specifically about our retreats, our support groups, and those kinds of things, you do have to go to the website to get that information. Yeah, we'll put a link to that on FamilyLife.com as well. And I know there's a mom or dad listening right now.
Yes. That maybe he's afraid, you know, there's that fear, this is the day, you have to click that link, this is a step toward healing. And there's somebody listening who has a friend or a family member who's lost a child.
And you've desperately wanted to help them, and you should remain in their life and ask them, how are you doing today, and tell me about your son, and say their child's name, and enter into that space as best you can. But it's great to know you can tell them about this ministry, and they can go to a different level in their grief journey. Yeah. Another support that you have is your new podcast. Yes.
Because that was brought up Monday night in our group. Several of the moms were saying, I listen to it all the time, it's so encouraging. So that's another resource to send people. What's it called?
It's called While We're Waiting, Hope After Child Loss. And it's something we started really kind of in response to COVID, because all of our retreats were shut down for several months. And so we did a few Facebook Live things and stuff like that. But we decided that a podcast might be a way that we could just kind of continue the ministry and it's interviews and other things.
Great topics. I think one of the questions parents are asking themselves is, am I crazy? Yes.
I know, Brad, Jill, I know you guys have heard that a thousand times. Yes. Am I crazy? Is it just me? Or do I really think this way? It can't be right. Right.
Am I not being faithful enough? Like all of those shaming, guilting, self-condemning sorts of things we do as Christians when we're dealing with hard things. It's so relieving to just hear somebody say, yep, that's normal. Yep, that's normal. You're not crazy.
You're not crazy. You're in the right place. We started saying if you go through this alone, you could have those questions because you don't know the answer. But when you go through this in community, you go, oh, this is what God made me for. I have to be a part of this. It's the only way I'm going to make it. So way to go. Thanks. Yeah. Thank you for sharing the story of Hannah and Connor.
And I look at, man, you guys, are you really using their lives to help other people? Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Christian community is so powerful, so important, so needed when we are walking through difficult circumstances.
The Bible tells us we are to weep with those who weep. We are to encourage the faint-hearted and help the weak. And that's what's been modeled for us by Brad and Jill Sullivan, Ron and Nan Deal, as they've been sharing their story and what they are offering to others. Brad and Jill are doing retreats, both one day and weekend retreats for moms, dads, for couples together. We've got a link on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com where you can find out more about these getaways that the Sullivans are offering.
Go to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information. You can also get a copy of a book that Levi Lusko has written. The Lusko's went through the loss of a child. We shared their story last month on Family Life Today.
And Levi has written about it in a book called Through the Eyes of a Lion, Facing Impossible Pain, Finding Incredible Power. And you can get a copy of that book for yourself or if you know someone who is grieving. Maybe you want to reach out to them and come alongside them to provide encouragement and support and help.
Get them a copy of Levi Lusko's book Through the Eyes of a Lion. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com to order it or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to get your copy. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. Our number is 1-800-358-6329. That's 1-800-F as in Family, L as in Life, and then the word Today.
You can order your copy of Levi Lusko's book Through the Eyes of a Lion when you get in touch with us. And I want to take just a minute and say thank you to those of you who have in the past partnered with us to help make programs like today's program possible. I wish you were here to read the notes that we get, the thank yous we receive from listeners who tell us how God uses programs like this so powerfully in their own lives. And really, their thanks belong to you because you've made what we do here at Family Life Today possible every time you make a donation. Family Life Today is listener supported. Without your donations, this radio program, this podcast, our events, our resources, none of that would be possible if it weren't for people like you who believe that strong marriages and strong families are foundational to what we are all about as believers in Christ.
So thank you for your support. If you're able to make a donation today, we'd love to send you as a thank you gift a copy of Wendy Speaks' book, The 40-Day Social Media Fast. And I know some of you are thinking, I don't think I want to take a 40-day social media fast.
Well, Wendy's book not only provides you with the rationale of why that's a good idea, but it gives you guidance. Wendy becomes your companion as you go through 40 days of detoxifying, cleansing from what can sometimes build up on social media. Again, Wendy Speaks' The 40-Day Social Media Fast is our gift to you when you make a donation today.
Donate online at familylifetoday.com or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. And again, on behalf of those who benefit from all that we do here at Family Life, thank you for partnering with us. And we hope you can join us again tomorrow when we're going to hear things we ought not say and maybe the right things to say to parents who are grieving the loss of a child. Ron and Nan Deal will be back with Brad and Jill Sullivan. Hope you can be back with us as well. On behalf of our hosts Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Bob Lapine. We'll see you tomorrow for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a production of Family Life, a crew ministry, helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.
Whisper: medium.en / 2023-09-19 03:37:26 / 2023-09-19 03:51:28 / 14