Intentional Dating

All right, let me ask you honey, do you remember our first date?

Yes, kind of. What do you remember? That you were stinking hot. That I don't remember, I actually had hair. Do you remember it?

Yeah, do you remember what you remember about it? What you've told me? No.

That I didn't have any idea I did? No. You said I kept hitting you.

Yes. Every time I'd make a point I'd take my hand and your shoulder. I remember you thought it was weird.

I liked it though. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson. And I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at familylifetoday.com or on our Family Life app. This is Family Life Today. Yeah, I don't know if I did.

I do now though. Today we've got a broadcast on dating with the expert who wrote a book on dating, Jonathan Pacluta. Did I get it right? You nailed it, yeah.

Yeah, all right. I didn't know if you're going to introduce me because I was just like, oh, you guys are on a date right now. I'm kind of watching it happen. You're staring deep in each other's eyes. It was amazing. That's what we do.

Every moment with us is like a great date. That's right. It is. I love it. I'm a chaperone.

I don't think so. Anyway, Jonathan, glad to have you here. Pastor of Harris Creek Baptist Church in Waco. And I first found you online when you were leading the porch. And I did not know the porch, Ministry of Watermark Church in Dallas went from 150 to 7,000 young people, all singles. Yeah, predominantly. I mean, it's a young adult ministry, but mostly probably 95% single. And it's ministries changed as we've talked about before, where we probably have 3,500 there in the room, but then 20 campuses around the country, people watching live from different churches around the US and really around the world now. So yeah, you were leading that.

Yes, I led that for 12 years. Were you amazed by the growth? I was amazed that I would get to be a part of it.

I'm never amazed by what God does, but that I get to be a part of it has never ceased to amaze me. Well, I know when I turned it on again, I'm from Michigan. I hate to say it, but I wasn't familiar with the porch.

I just heard the name. It wasn't your demographic. It's okay. I guess, I guess I turned you on and watched you and I'm like, Oh my goodness, you can preach. Wow.

And so I'm like, no wonder. And it wasn't just that you're a gifted preacher. In my opinion, it was the truth of the gospel. Every message I watched, you were leading young people to Jesus through the things that they were concerned about. Thank you for saying that. That may be the highest compliment someone could give me because what else we're going to do if we're not leading people to Jesus. And so that's the part that amazes me that I get to be a part of honestly. And you're married to Monica.

Yes. Been married 16 years. And kids.

And we have three kids, Weston, our son and our daughters, Finley and Presley. This book on dating is dynamite as we just read through. It's called outdated. Find a love that lasts when dating has changed. And so as you're talking to young people, thousands of young people over the years, you've learned a few things obviously about dating. So one of the things you say at the beginning is dating has changed and it's not really working. What's that mean?

Well, just think about it. So dating has changed with technology, the boom of technology, the way that people find love. They're looking for love. The way that their hearts are engaged in this topic has changed immensely.

No one out there would argue that. And I think for parents, we need to understand that our kids are, they are growing up in a different world and the way they do this. I mean, we weren't swiping left or right and trying to find love, you know, trying to find our match. We weren't taking compatibility tests, personality tests, discs, Myers-Briggs, Enneagram, StrengthsFinder, all trying to find, you know, professional matchmakers as an industry. So we have more help on the topic of dating than any generation that has ever lived. And we're the worst at it. And so here's why I say we're the worst at it.

Consider this. People are getting married later. They're getting married less and marriages aren't lasting. And so whatever you would call the divorce rate today, you know, there's discrepancy in this, but let's just say somewhere between 40 and 50%. So most people can choose anyone that they want to spend the rest of their life with and then it doesn't work out or for a significant portion of them, it doesn't work out. And then there's this other significant number of people that stay married, but they're just undivorced. So that's how I would draw the conclusion that most marriages fail. You got some end and some are unhappily married and yet we have more help than ever.

And so I'm like, for those who want to be married, we need to figure this out. The way that we're doing this today is outdated. And dating, as we understand it, as we define it, is a relatively new idea.

Yeah, I was going to ask, when did that happen? About 120 years ago, it entered the English language as a euphemism for prostitution. So to go on a date meant to exchange an experience for sexual favors. Now, if you consider how the world dates today, we haven't come that far. I mean, that's still very much what is going on, but we have reality show, romantic comedies. The interesting thing about this is a significant portion of the world is getting advice from the people who are the worst at this. Hollywood has the highest divorce rates of anywhere on the planet.

And they're the ones pumping out the, hey, do it this way. Let us teach you how to date. Hey, watch this. And you look at the statistics that surround the areas of those production companies and it's like, oh, they should not be teaching us how to find love that lasts.

We have to go somewhere else. And so I would go to the author of love, the one who is called love, the one who not only invented love, but embodies love. And he's going to rightfully tell us this. Now we know the Bible says nothing about dating because that wasn't a thing then, but it says a lot about relationships and how we can foster relationships. And so this book is observing literally tens of thousands of relationships over a decade, seeing what they do that works, seeing what they do that doesn't work and realizing the pattern that, oh, when they seek to honor God in the way that they build and form these relationships, it tends to go well. And when they don't, it doesn't tend to go well.

And so just introducing those eternal truths. So you're talking about it doesn't work, at least not working well the way we date today. What are we doing wrong? Because, you know, when you say all these things, you're right. It's like, wow, we have personality tests. Ann and I never did that. You know, we have coaches and did everything wrong actually. I mean, we didn't do any of the things that are available now. And I mean, these people that can help us and tests that can help us are awesome.

And yet it's not working. Why not? I think people first and foremost are dating for fun. And so we don't think about the intentionality. Well, we don't think about what dating is. We don't think about it like a job interview. And so whenever you would go to a job interview, the first thing you'd want to know is what is the job?

Like if I'm, if I'm auditioning for a part or I'm going to try to do play a role, what is the actual job? And so people don't date thinking about, okay, marriage, how do I identify if this person is going to make a great spouse? We date for the manic highs and the manic lows. I think so many young people today are addicted to the emotional rollercoaster. They don't, they can't get off of it.

And so girls will come up and say, I just don't know why, you know, I only date these scumbags or they'll use a different word. And, and I'll say, but you're, you're addicted to it. I mean, that's, that's what you've trained your heart to look for. Proverbs 4 23 says, above all else, guard your heart for the wellspring of life.

That's one of those eye roll verses like, okay, I get it. Guard my heart. But what it actually says is more than you guard anything in the world, protect your heart above all else, protect your heart, guard your heart, be careful what you let in because it takes you places in the world will say, Hey, follow your heart. The scripture teaches us to inform our heart before we follow it. You don't want to follow an uninformed heart. You don't want to follow your feelings and your emotions because that's what you've done in every relationship you've ever been in. You followed it into a relationship and out of relationship and in a relationship and out of relationship. I think that message is foundational to what we're doing wrong today when it comes to dating. Oh, see that stuff is big because I hear you and think that is the fun of it. That is the, it's the highs, it's the lows. I mean, she's getting excited.

Just, I can see her right now. But here's what happens is you're right. If you don't have a perspective of why not to do that, you just fall into it. We'd all just fall into it. And I think that pattern is very real that we're all falling into it.

The singles are. So then when you say, bring God into this, that's like, Oh, so what's that look like? What's that even mean? We didn't grow up in the church. And so when somebody said, bring God into it and don't give your heart away, I was so confused by all that terminology.

How do I bring God in and how do I not give my heart away when I've done that all the time? You've talked to tons of people that have done both of those things. I think you have to date with intentionality, but you know, and I'm always talking to two audiences. I'm talking to a, a lost slash kind of new to Christianity audience. And then I'm talking to people who have grown up in the church and grown up in Sunday school, all of the church program, VBS, all of that.

And so I say intentional, not intense. So, cause there's guys out there, they, they hear that and there's a great, I can do that. You know, give me the list to do. I'm going to show him to pick you up at seven. I'm going to walk to your door at seven or two. I'm going to, I'm going to open the door for you. You're going to walk. We're going to take 10 steps to my car and then I'm going to take you here and then we're going to get there at this time. And then we're just, and then I'm going to, and it's like, Oh my goodness, this is really stressful.

It's really stressful for being with you. So not intense, but to say, Hey, here's why I'm here. This is what I'm doing.

This isn't just, I'm not just following my feelings. I'm, I'm actually going somewhere. I'm, I'm hoping this goes somewhere and I'm in a process, an interview process. What I hope to do over this coffee is really intentionally find out if we want to have another coffee, if we want to keep spending time together. And so I'm going to ask you questions for the purpose of finding out if, if I want to do this again and really, and hopefully to reveal to you, if you want to do this again, it's just a thoughtful kind of logic, a plus B line of thinking.

But most people don't think that they show up and they say, man, I hope I feel something, you know, I hope I, I hope I have another feeling that I can follow. And, and that has not gone well for us. Yeah. And you got, you just used the word purpose.

Yeah. And the first part of your book is why we date. So let's talk purpose. Number one is what is dating anyway?

Can you define it? I mean, why would we date? Yeah. Dating is a path to a promise. So simply put, it's a path to a promise. So you're, you're trying to move in a relationship toward a commitment, a lifelong commitment.

And so it's a path to a promise. And so if, if we apply that to the question, why do we date? We date to find a spouse. Well, what if I'm not looking for a spouse?

Then you don't need to go on a date. Well, what if I still want to have fun, you know, with the opposite sex? Well, now we're back to dating for fun and it's not going to be fun. That's the irony.

That's the irony. When you date for fun and you experience the manic highs, the manic lows, it leads to heartbreak, lots of sleepless nights, anxiety, snot crying in your pillow. That's where dating for fun goes. But when you date on purpose, it can be a lot of fun because you actually see, Oh, now I know I have, I have measurables. I know if I'm being successful in this pursuit or, or if I'm being successful in being pursued, I can see that. I can kind of measure that. I can have conversations around that.

Romans 12, nine says, love must be sincere. There's no games. I'm not left wondering. You know, I always tell guys, I said, guys, let me tell you something about girls. Girls wander. And they're like, what do you mean? Well, they, they wonder if you're going to call them. They wonder if you're going to text them. They wonder where this is going.

They wonder what you're thinking. And so people say, well, what does it mean to lead in dating? I said, well, leaders remove confusion. Clarity is kindness. So as much as you can remove that confusion, as much as you can lovingly say, Hey, here's what I'm thinking. So much of dating is just turning your thoughts into words. So so much of kindness and relationships is just turning your thoughts into words and being sincere towards one another. So are you saying on an early date, the man or the woman should state pretty honestly from the very beginning of their, their intentions?

I'm saying, what else are they doing there? If not trying to find a spouse. And so this plays into, especially for parents, as you think about dating in high school. So I've got kids moving toward high school and this is very real. I mean, you get boy and girl crazy.

It starts about in junior high and before, and just trying to manage those expectations as a parent. I set my girls down. I'm saying, listen, this is what dating is. Everybody's going to do it this way.

Like, right. They, they just are excited to go to the dance with somebody and you're going to hear that they're in love and you're going to see the tears firsthand. And I want you to take note where those relationships go. And everybody, when I say that wants to tell me about, you know, the one high school sweetheart experience they know, and I get that those are there and that's awesome.

And I celebrate that like the next person, but what is, what is way more calm exponentially. I think I can say that literally exponentially more common than that are the, are the many, many, many, many breakups because as, as Song of Solomon says, we've awakened love before it's time. We've began to play married and that has not gone well for us. And so with your kids, are they allowed to have a boy for boyfriend or a girlfriend based on the definition of dating?

When does that happen then? Yeah, for us in our family, we just say we I'm big on this. Like you, you date from marriage and dad, daddy's going to help you and I have your best interest in mind and I pray every single morning for their spouse. I pray every morning that they would not awaken love before it's time.

I pray every morning they would not set anything evil before their eyes and, and really want to help them. And so what I've done in the first season of parenting is tried to earn their trust, you know, and just wants you to know like, man, you can trust me, I have your best interest in mind. There are going to be some times in the future where everything in you says you need to go right and, and I'm going to say you need to go left and it's going to feel like an injustice and unfair, but I hope that you will watch those times closely. And my commitment to you is, is I can't promise you I'll always be right when I'm wrong.

I'm going to own it fully. I'm going to ask your forgiveness and seek to be reconciled to you, but I really do want to earn your trust. And in this one's going to be, I think the hardest is everyone in your class. All the girls around you are going to go crazy for boys and be talking about them, find identity. The conversations are going to go there and you're going to feel left out and you're going to feel alone and you're going to feel like you have nothing to contribute and you're going to feel like a weirdo and like your parents are strict. And I want to make sure that we have fun.

You know, if, if there's a dance that weekend at the school that everybody's going crazy about, if we can, if we have the means, I'm like, you know what, I'm taking you to New York that weekend, you know, or we're going to go, we're going to go somewhere big or we're going to do something fun. I'm going to go find a travel deal or something and give you a better alternative. I'm always trying to think through how can I give them a better alternative? And that doesn't have to be expensive. It can be a camping trip.

You know, it can be, you know, just somewhere in nature, something that they want to do. And you're really saying, I want more for you. I want better for you. That's what God says to us.

I want better for you than the world offers. Are you saying at 13 you're not going to let her go to that dance or is it her call or when would you let her go? I'm fine with her going to a dance. And I think every kid, it has to be different based on their level of maturity.

And so that's a part of, as parents, we have to be students of our children. But if she goes to that dance, I hope she goes in a group, you know, and they have fun. It's not like I want my daughter to not be around boys until she's married to one. I want her to be around boys a lot, but just not in that one-on-one setting where we know, I mean, every person over the age of 21 hearing this right now thinks back to the foolish things you did when you were 18. Hormones are going crazy. You couldn't wait to get by yourself and just push the envelope, you know, see how far or what you could do or write the story.

And so, yeah, I just, I want to protect her from that. And JP, the last time you were here, we talked a little bit about your past that you feel like you didn't do this well. I did not do this well.

What did that look like? And because you're passionate about it now for a reason. And I got to tell you, one of our researchers who read through your book and wrote us some notes said, I would say the book title should be everything I did wrong so that you don't do it too.

That's right. You know, she was just saying you were very honest and, you know, obviously you were, so tell us what you did wrong. There are no perfect parents, some people would say. I started dating too early. I gave my heart away. I found identity in relation with the opposite sex. I grew up with just major codependency issues because of that. I don't think I was ever single longer than two weeks since the fifth grade.

Most of those relationships were overlapping. I had gone to a university for divorce because the way that we date is really training for divorce because you get in a relationship and when you don't feel in love with them anymore, you get out of a relationship and then you get in another relationship because you have all the feels, you know, you know, it's exciting. It's fun. You get up in the morning, your heart beats, you have a reason to live.

You're thinking about them. You're wondering when they're going to call and when they do your body releases all of these endorphins and just a serotonin dump and you feel so great like you're on ecstasy and then you realize that they do this thing that annoys you and all of a sudden all the feels leave. And this is a systematic training for divorce. That's why we go into marriage and the way that we've dated has taught us systematically to get a divorce.

I have never, have you ever thought of this? No, it's so true. You're so right.

It really is. We're training ourselves for divorce. And in some ways you're defining a very, very popular show on TV that I would love to say I've never once watched, but I've actually watched a few times as the bachelor or the bachelor around. I mean, they just sort of model that. Look at the success rate, right? Look at the success rate. So like outside of two couples that I know and somebody's going to email and say it's three, maybe four, but the show, it's been a long running show.

And I have, I've had multiple friends on the show who I love and we have these conversations, but you just look at the success rate of that show when it's like, Hey, we're going to give these compatibility tests. We're going to create the perfect scenario. We're going to let you choose from all of these people and you still get it wrong. Yeah. And again, you know, I'm sitting there on the couch and I'm not watching it. I'm watching a game. Not sure you're not. He's totally into it. No, I mean, Ann's in the other room and I'm watching a game and I'm flipping around and then you see the bachelor or the bachelorette and you're like, this is the dumbest thing I've ever seen. And you're hooked. You know, I'm watching it. I'm like sneaking around and watching five minutes and just thinking, girl, don't do it. He's a liar. But you know, they're watch parties and people getting together and they do it, I think because of the adrenaline rush, sort of the hope that I hope this can be true and it isn't true, right?

It doesn't work. And that's the model you're talking about. That's right. You know, sex at an early age in high school and really just then, then dating becomes a pursuit of that. And now you're talking about not just a university that's training you for divorce, but a university that's training you for adultery, but not just sex than pornography. So as I became an adult, had an extreme addiction to pornography daily looking at porn, which is a university for variety. So an addiction to porn is not an addiction to sex. It's an addiction to variety. And, and there is no room for monogamy for the person who's addicted to porn.

Right. And so then I become a Christian. That's a story in and of itself, but I'm at a club. Someone invites me to, to a church. I trust in Christ. Wait, wait, wait. You gotta, you gotta give us a little more. I'm at a club.

Yeah. I'm at a club. When I get invited to church. When I grew up in church, I went to church school, you know, I went to church three times a week, sometimes all kinds of Catholic church, Lutheran church, Baptist church. And, and then I went to college and I, because I didn't have a relationship with Jesus. I did all the crazy things that pagan college students do. And then I graduated somehow and I'm at this club 18 years ago and someone, I'm talking to this girl and say, what are you doing this weekend? She said, well, I'm gonna go check out this church tomorrow. I said, great, pick me up.

And she does. And so I go hung over. I sit in the back row, smell like smoke. And, and I'd heard the gospel. I had talked about the gospel with other people, but you know, the Holy Spirit at that point, she really exits the story. I kept going week after week after week and, and just really just getting, getting beat up, like sitting in the parking lot, weeping, like what is wrong with me?

And I just, I was watching these people legitimately follow Jesus and I gave my life to Christ and the Holy Spirit came in and just cleaned house. And there were things that went away so easy. The way that I talked, my language was terrible.

He, he fixed that. I had a major anger issues. He fixed that pornography and that lingered like it, it just didn't, I've, I've done drugs. I've been an alcoholic. Nothing ripped my life like that addiction. And it just enslaved me. And so, you know, I, I have accountability.

I begin to experience freedom and healing from that addiction. I get married and in, I say this prayer, so the pastors up there, we make these crazy promises to each other, you know, for better or worse, sickness and health till death do us part. He says, you know, you may kiss your bride. We walked down the aisle. Our friends and family are there. They're applauding. It's beautiful.

She's beautiful. I hold her in my arms in the foyer and I say, I say this prayer. I say, dear God, thank you for allowing me to escape the consequences of my sin.

I was like, man, I got, I got away. And I was thinking of pornography. I think sexual sin. I was thinking, you know, just on STD or unwanted pregnancy or, or a psycho ex-girlfriend or something. Well, I got two years in a marriage and I realized how naive that prayer was because I hadn't escaped the consequences of my sin.

It just came in a different way. I had no idea how to love one woman for the rest of my life. I had systematically trained myself that as soon as I don't feel something, I'm out and now I'm stuck and I felt so stuck and she felt so stuck. And so we're looking at each other and it's like, well, I don't know, like, do I love you? I don't know anymore. I don't even know if I like you, you know, what, what do we do? And, and that was a symptom of the way that we date.

Like that's, that's what happens. You carry, you mentioned in your book, you carry the luggage. Yeah. I carry the baggage. Yeah. I mean, we're all standing at the altar and if we could see behind the, you know, the, the reality, we have these bags.

We don't think we have them. You prayed a prayer thing. I'm glad I escaped that and yet you've got more than a carry on coming on that baby. I think it'll be worth talking about that piece more.

Yeah, for sure. I know that for Ann and I, our dating relationship was the first and really for me, the only relationship where Christ really was the foundation. Every other one was everything you said, JP, it was just like just this adrenaline rush. It was about sex. It was about thinking I was in love and then when we started dating, I just rendered my life to Christ. She had done the same thing and it was like a totally different experience because we had a purpose.

Do we, are we going to marry one another? And with that as the foundation, it changed everything. I think it changed everything and the biggest thing that we did that changed everything was we put Jesus in the center.

Yeah. So we started a date with prayer, ended a date with prayer, put boundaries on the physical relationship. I mean, I'd never done that and it was radically different. I'm not saying if you do that, you're going to marry that person. But in our case, that is exactly what happened. And I would challenge the single listener, put Jesus at the center of your dating life. You may have never done that before.

Get on your knees right now and say, I'm going to surrender this area to my Lord and Savior. Trust him. And it'll be a uniquely different experience that as I sit here now, married 40 years, I know that decision when we were dating changed my legacy. Well, if it wasn't clear to you before today, I think the conversation that Dave and Ann Wilson have had today makes it clear that the way we're doing dating in the 21st century in the United States is not accomplishing what the people who are dating wanted to accomplish. Dating is broken. And part of the reason is because we're not approaching the whole issue of dating from a biblical framework. That's what Jonathan Pakluta's book Outdated is really all about. It's a look at how we can think biblically about the subject of dating and whether you're in your 20s or 30s trying to figure out how you can have a dating life that is honoring to God, or maybe you're dating again after the loss of a spouse or a divorce. You want to have an understanding of dating that is biblical.

That's what JP's book is all about. Again, it's called Outdated. Find love that lasts when dating has changed. You can go to our website, familylifetoday.com, to request your copy of JP's book Outdated, or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to get your copy. Again, the website is familylifetoday.com.

Look for JP Pakluta's book Outdated. Find love that lasts when dating has changed, or call to request your copy of the book 1-800-FL-TODAY is our number, 1-800-358-6329. That's 1-800-F as in family, L as in life, and then the word today. Now one of the things we know about some of you as listeners is that you are people who really have a heart to want to help other people. We know that because some of you have donated to make sure that Family Life Today is on the air in your community so that other people can benefit from this program. Family Life Today is listener supported. It's because of a handful of listeners in your community that you were able to listen to today's program, and if you are one of those folks who has helped support the Ministry of Family Life over the years, we want to say thank you for that ongoing support.

On behalf of your fellow listeners, thank you for making this program possible for us. If you are someone who likes to help other people, earlier this week we talked with Peggy Sue Wells and Pam Farrell about the 10 best decisions a single mom can make. We want to make copies of that book available to anyone who makes a donation to support the ministry. My thought is this is a great book for you to give to a single mom you know as a way to express love for her and to say, I'm here to help. So make a donation to Family Life Today. Request your copy of the book, 10 Best Decisions a Single Mom Can Make. We'll send that to you as our thank you gift for your support. Not only will your donation be helping others, but having a chance to give away the book to someone you know will be helpful as well. Let me just say thank you in advance for your ongoing support of this ministry.

We do appreciate you. And we hope you can join us again tomorrow when we're going to talk about the gift of singleness. You know, the Bible talks about singleness as a gift.

There are some singles who wonder, is it a gift or is it a curse? We'll hear what Jonathan Pacluta has to say about that tomorrow. I hope you can join us for that. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Anne Wilson, I'm Bob Lapine. We'll see you next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a production of Family Life, a crew ministry, helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.