Finding Freedom

Christopher Yuan is a man who has throughout his life struggled with same-sex attraction.

He admits there are aspects of his life that have been difficult, but he says he still knows where to find joy. People could say I'm suffering because I'm not married. I don't look at it that way at all. I'm living a way that's so full, more full than it ever was as a single man. Yes, I'm not in a relationship. Yes, I don't have children yet now. Yes, I don't have a spouse now. But I'm living a very, very full, full life.

And it is full of joy. This is Family Life Today. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson.

I'm Bob Lapine. How do we account for the reality of suffering in marriages and in family relationships? How does that square up with our walk with Christ?

We're going to spend time thinking about that today with Christopher Yuan. Stay with us. And welcome to Family Life Today.

Thanks for joining us. You said a little earlier, Dave, that you have had countless conversations over the last decade with people in your church, people you know, who are trying to deal with either for themselves or for a friend or a loved one. How do I understand sexual confusion in our day? What seemed simple when we were in elementary school? There are boys and girls and boys like girls and girls like boys and they grow up and they get married.

It all seemed pretty simple. Today, it's are you a boy or are you a girl and are you really a boy or should you change? And who do you really like and who are you going to marry? And you can marry whoever you want. It's a whole different world. It is a different world. And I honestly don't know if I go a week. I know I don't go two weeks asking these kind of questions that are centered on sexual confusion, gender confusion.

I would have never dreamed this 20 years ago. And, you know, you look at them and they really want help. And I think they actually really want truth and to know how to bring grace and truth together. I think that's where it gets tricky for us because we can deliver truth, but you can bludgeon people with truth.

Right. I think that we need to learn how to do this and people are looking. That's why I feel like this book is going to make such a big impact because people are looking for answers. How do I have these conversations?

How do I respond? How do I help people in my church? And what does this look like in today's age when things are changing so quickly? The book you're talking about is a book called Holy Sexuality and the Gospel. The subtitle is Sex, Desire and Relationships Shaped by God's Grand Story.

The author is Dr. Christopher Yuan. Welcome back. I was going to say Chris, but I'm going to say Christopher because, as we've already talked about this week, that's your identity.

Yes. Thank you, Bob. As a follower of Christ. This is your second book. Your first book was a memoir of your own story. And I mentioned this, but if folks have not heard your story, they can go to familylifetoday.com and listen to the interview that we did with you and your mom.

It's a remarkable story of a prodigal who grew up and headed off to dental school and said, I think I'm gay, and started living out a gay lifestyle, and then you were involved in drugs. You wound up in jail, and that's where you met Christ. You came out of jail a new man. You wound up a student at Moody Bible Institute. Today you're a professor at Moody Bible Institute.

I think we're sitting with the modern day Apostle Paul. I mean, the guy's in prison. And I didn't know your story before I picked up your book.

And even reading as you lay in your jail cell. Oh, wait, wait. I want him to share that part. You can't interrupt me. You always do this. Because I want to hear Christopher share the part where you're laying in your cell in the bed.

Tell us what caught your attention when you were laying there. Well, okay, just a little back story. So I was in prison, you know, for drugs, of course. And, of course, I need to be clear. Not all gays and lesbians do drugs.

Some do, some don't. That is part of my story. But I not only was just sentenced to six years, I just, you know, thought I was going to get out scot-free.

I was fooling myself. But then I also got the news that I was HIV positive. So it was just the whole world was falling down on me.

Life was just worthless at that moment. And I was lying there. They actually just moved me to another cell. They were like transferring. So I was in another cell.

No one else was in there. And just down, down, down. Lie there, look up at the metal bunk. And there was just kind of the usual scratch.

Graffiti, profanity, gang symbols. And I looked over in one other corner and someone had scribbled something. And I looked and it read, if you're bored, read Jeremiah 29.11. For I know the plans that I have for you, declares the Lord. Plans to prosper you and not to harm you.

Plans to give you hope and a future. I mean of all the verses in the Bible. All the verses. I didn't know what that verse was. And that whole verse wasn't read.

This is even my mom even says, you have to tell the whole rest. So remember I was just moved to a brand new cell. I didn't have my Bible. I mean they literally stripped you down and take everything. I had nothing. I went into that prison cell, nothing.

But they had garbage and you know, just kind of food and paper plates. And so I got up, I was like, I don't know what Jeremiah 29 is. I kind of got up and I was just going through one of the, they have a locker there with, there's plastic cups and there was a Bible in the back. So I opened it up, you know, and I had to go to the table of contents because I don't know Jeremiah where that is. I mean I kind of knew that that was probably a Bible verse. And I read and then if you kind of go down after that, how it says that God will call you back from captivity. Wow. I'm like, all the verses, you know, it was like that was for me.

Yes. Jeremiah was writing to a rebellious nation that had just turned so far from God. And now that then he was turning them into exile. But God was telling them through the mouth of this prophet, I still, I still have a plan for you. So yeah, that was, that was meaningful for me that, you know, in the midst of my just tragedy, you know, six years, I mean, you know, at that time, this is right after Christmas of December 98 and I thought, I don't know, I've got HIV. I don't know how much longer I have.

I don't know if I'm going to survive six years. I'll tell you what, when I read that in your book, I'm the preacher guy who doesn't want to use Jeremiah 29 and 11 a lot because, you know, people think, oh, he's just got prosperity. And then I read that in your book and I'm like, I'll never think of that verse the same.

I can picture you in that cell. And I just thought there's so many people listening that are thinking they're at the end and there is no hope. There's no way God can do anything and redeem their life.

And I'm sitting here going, yes, he can. You don't know. And I also thought this, man, when God reaches out and gives you a sign, you better turn.

I mean, I know me, I'd be laying there looking at, yeah, whatever, Jeremiah. I'm not, you know, but you went, you sought it out and that was exactly, I think your whole life's different. And I just want to give people hope. Don't quit. Don't quit on your marriage. Don't quit on your life.

Don't quit on your kids. Oh, good. And the thing that I thought, too, was you were a captive. You were in jail as a captive and Jesus set you free.

And I think that's what we're saying, that Jesus wants to set all of us free. Because sometimes we're in situations where we feel like there is no hope and I am a captive and I'll be like this forever. Or most of the time when there is no hope, right? Yes. Not sometimes. Were you aware as the light was coming on in your life spiritually, were you aware this is going to have implications for my sexuality?

No. One thing about my memoir that I had critiqued, actually it was Jerry Jenkins. He helped me and even kind of read over my book. And he was kind of like, so when exactly did you come? You know, because it wasn't like so clean, you know, when exactly did you become a Christian? I'm like, I'm glad you brought that up because I left it open.

Yeah. My mother's conversion was like so clear. She knows, I mean, I think it's May 15th? May, she's in the other room, I can ask her.

But it's May something, 1993. She knows the exact day. The place, the time, the whole thing. The place she was on the train going from Chicago to Louisville. One way ticket, not round trip. They even asked her, it's only like $7 more for a round trip. She said, no, I'm not coming back. Wow. And so she was on the train.

And so she knew exactly the day, everything. For me, I don't know. And that's conversion.

For some, it is instantaneous. No, no, no. Some people would say you're not a Christian yet. Do you want me to lead you to Christ right here, Christopher?

If you don't have a date, it's all right. No, I mean, so many people think that, but it isn't always like that. But you'd agree. There's a point in time when you move from death to life. Oh, yes. You just may not know what that spiritual moment was in your life. Right.

I definitely know the time. It was while I was in prison. Yes.

You know, I walked in, drug addict, drugs, not only dealer, supplier. I was embracing same-sex relationships. I was embracing this as who I was. Right. So I got that Jeremiah 29 and 11.

That wasn't, even though that was very significant, that was not the turning point. I was still holding on. I thought I could have my cake and eat it too, right? Don't we all?

Yes. And I really, really thought, I did think I could have God and I could have, you know, my same-sex relationships or maybe a same-sex relationship, but it took time. And honestly, it was not being convicted that it was sin. It took changing my identity.

That's so important because once God broke that paradigm, then for me, it was just so easy to say, okay, this is not who I am. This is what I do. This is the desires that I might have. And then I was able to not make it so personal and not feel like I have to like hold on to it because we hold on to things because we think that I have nothing else. This is all I am.

And we think that's the only thing that will bring us satisfaction. Yes. You know, there are people you could talk to today, there are books you could get that would tell you, you can be a Christian and continue to have same-sex relationships.

We've misunderstood the Bible on this. Yes. You've come to a point where you disagree with that pretty strongly.

Oh, yes, I do. And it's more than simply just saying it is sin. And honestly, the majority of these books, what they do is they focus upon the six passages and they deconstruct them.

And of course, I can go in it. I mean, I've studied Hebrew and Greek in seminary. And actually, I committed all of my papers were on that because I knew that was my burden. And I studied and studied and studied and found out that those interpretations are lacking. But honestly, even if those passages aren't in Scripture, we could still look at God's word and specifically Jesus' words in Mark chapter 10, Matthew chapter 19, when he is questioned about divorce. And his answer simply was not going back to the law, not going to Leviticus or Deuteronomy, Mosaic law. He went back to Genesis and he said, in the beginning the Creator made them male and female and the two shall become one. What he was doing, and this is what we often miss, he was being asked about divorce. And all he needed to do was to say, you know, the two shall become one from Genesis 2, 24.

That's all he would need to do. But then he throws in this component, this aspect from actually not Genesis 2, he goes all the way back even further to Genesis 1, in the beginning the Creator made them male and female. That actually is the Imago Dei passage, which then connects not only that marriage is male and female. There's no other way of understanding why Jesus was saying that. Jesus was throwing in, because remember he was talking about divorce. He threw that in, the male and female.

Why? Because there is no marriage without the male-female complementarity, period. So when people come up to you and they say, but Jesus never said anything about a homosexual lifestyle, is that what you would refer to? Well, first thing I would say, Jesus also never said anything about bestiality. He never said anything about incest.

Silence is never good enough argument for or against, unless you have other information. And I would then point to, yes, he didn't say anything specifically about homosexuality, but he definitely taught on sexuality. And I would point them to Jesus' own words, Mark chapter 10 and Matthew 19, and say, look, he's talking about divorce, and sometimes I've heard the argument where people say, well, you know, this whole passage is only about divorce.

He was asked a question about divorce, and he was answering. And my response is Jesus is never constrained by the questioner. Ever. Ever. Ever, right?

I mean, how many times has someone asked something and he just gave another answer, you know, the more important answer. And he was, this is a perfect example, he was asked about divorce, and then he taught them about marriage. So when it dawned on you that your new life in Christ was going to have implications for your sexuality, that this was now off limits for you, did you grieve that? You know, it was not easy. It would have been easier, you know, have my cake and eat it too. I could try to, you know, have my God and be in a monogamous same-sex relationship. You know, I could then, you know, be a gay Christian. Why not?

What I see kind of the gay Christian movement is, it's in essence kind of a pseudo, a neo-prosperity gospel movement. If you want it, get it. You have completely lacking suffering. No suffering. And let me tell you, there is no gospel without suffering.

Period. And it's not a suffering that is like so sad and we're so, no, it's, we suffer with joy because we know all of this doesn't matter. Yes, people could say I'm suffering because I'm not married. I don't look at it that way at all. I'm living a way that's so full, more full than it ever was as a single man. Yes, I'm not in a relationship. Yes, I don't have children yet now. Yes, I don't have a spouse now. But I'm living a very, very full, full life.

And it is full of joy. I don't want to make homosexuality or the fact that I have same-sex attractions primarily an issue of suffering or even primarily an issue of victimhood. This is another thing that I often hear, even now, kind of current things where people talk about how because they're same-sex attracted or because they identify as gay Christian, that then, you know, all of this past, how the church has really hurt them and et cetera, and I don't want to discount that. I do believe as Christians there's a lot of improvement. We do have a huge stigma around this one sin above other sins.

And so we do have a lot of room to improve. But you know what? I'm never going to attack myself. In other words, I'm never going to attack my body.

I am a part of the body of Christ. If I'm going to attack the church, I'm attacking myself. I'm going to compel the church to improve, but I'm never going to try to cut its head off or cut its...

I think we need to actually... So instead of approaching this primarily as an issue of I'm a victim or I'm suffering, I think we need to actually approach this as how can I give myself more for the sake of the gospel and for the sake of Christ? And that is going to be difficult.

And that is going to be not easy. But I think that's the reality of every Christian. I think as a lot of Christians, we should be challenged. I look at that statement. If anyone come after me, he must deny himself, pick up his cross, and follow me. We want to jump over those two things. We don't want to deny ourself. We don't want to pick up our cross. And we just want to follow Jesus. We can't.

We can if we don't do that. Because following Jesus should cost us everything. If it hasn't, we may be following the wrong Jesus. I think many times we're following this concept of Jesus that he'll just give me everything that I want, that I will be comfortable, that I'll have all my needs met. And if he loves me, that's what he'll do.

Right. And if I'm obedient, if I do all the right things, if I go to church, if I read the Bible, then I will have an easy life. No, actually, if you do all these things and you grow in Christ, you may suffer. As you walk through your life now, and you talk about this in your book, talk about temptation. Because it could almost appear that, man, you've got this down, you walked away from this lifestyle, you're a single man, you're not tempted. But you talk honestly in the book about how does a man, how does a woman, single, married, you name it, deal with the temptation? Is the desire still there?

What do you do with them? Talk about that. Yeah. So I wanted to differentiate, because we talk about same-sex attractions. And I use that term in the book, but then I shift kind of toward the beginning, where I say I'm not really going to talk and address so much about same-sex attractions, because, first of all, that term attraction isn't found in the Bible, and so then we can then sort of debate and talk about what is the definition. And I said, let's just use the very biblical terms, desire and temptation. And so I had this chapter on temptation where I wanted to help people realize that temptation, in and of itself, is not sinful. Jesus was tempted in every way, the writer of Hebrews writes.

But then he was without sin. So what I often see is, as human beings, we always tend to kind of go from one extreme to the other. So people on one extreme are maybe individuals who might experience same-sex attractions, and they're just beating themselves up about it. You know, they're like, man, I'm just the worst. God hates me.

I can never. And I want to encourage those people and say, you know what? You're a sinner like everyone else. You're being tempted with sin, and if you're not giving in to those temptations, don't beat yourself up about it.

So you're like everyone else. And so I want to kind of encourage those, but you know what? Then the other side of the spectrum are those people who are being tempted, and they're toying with it.

They're like, you know what? That's not so bad. It's not a sin. Because temptation can just quickly switch right into sinful desire.

I mean, it's a split second. And then they begin toying with it, and it begins festering and growing. And so I want to then chastise those individuals to say, don't toy with temptation. Though temptation in and of itself is not sinful, it is not innocent.

It is not something that we can just kind of play with. Our perspective should not be how close to temptation can I get without stumbling. It's how far away can I stay from temptation so that I don't stumble. Yes, exactly. Yeah, and I was thinking, you know, as you flew down here for this radio, it's pretty interesting you will not travel alone. Talk about fleeing temptation.

Why is that? Yeah, I have a policy. So I do a lot of traveling. I speak at churches. And I know that I have a bull's eye on my back.

The enemy is throwing darts and trying to pull me down because he doesn't want the message that I'm talking about, God's grace and truth on this issue of sexuality, to go forward. So I have that. And also, I know what I'm capable of. So I committed years ago when I started speaking and traveling that I would never travel alone. So whenever I go, whether I'm speaking by myself or whether I'm speaking with my parents, I will have someone traveling. And so my mother, I have the blessing of having my prayer warrior travel with me. She prays with me, holds me accountable when it's in immense joy. Just seeing how God has given back the years that the locusts have taken away. And so I travel in that way because I know I'm capable that temptation is not something that I want to toy with. And even people, young men, young women who are wrestling with temptation and who isn't, I look to scripture and how, just like I said in Hebrews, Jesus was tempted in every way.

Why is that in there? It's because he has been in our shoes. He knows exactly what we're going through.

And I know people then say, well, wait a second. Jesus never sinned. So if he never sinned, how can he really know what I'm going through? Like, because he's sinless, right? We talk about the impeccability of Christ.

Jesus was incapable of sinning. So he doesn't really, really, really know what I'm going through. But this is where that's not true. Because if you think about this, all of us around the table, we've all been tempted. And what happens? Sometimes, maybe many times, we give in. So actually, we don't endure temptation to the end.

There's only one person that has completely endured to its end. We give in. Like, I give in at 20%. I give in at 25 or 30. If you're really, really strong, maybe you give in at 60% or 70%. Jesus Christ endured temptation all the way to the end.

So actually, the fact that he never sinned really tells us that he, of all people, completely knows what it is to resist sin. And he's on my side. And he knows exactly what I'm going through. And that, to me, is comforting. So let's say we have all these moms out here and we're thinking, yes, I want my son or my daughter to have this obedience in Christ and I want them to walk with Jesus like this. I'm going to offer my services to help them.

How did that happen? I mean, I'm thinking, with my kids raising three sons, you know, our kids are going through temptation all the time. How can we help them as parents face temptation without saying, do you want me to come with you on the date? You know? Because moms, we would like to do that. Follow you everywhere you go.

That would be a no. Right, right. And moms, we want to help our kids. We're desperate to help them.

How can we help them? That's just not moms. It's dads, too. Yes. So I became a Christian older and I went to Moody older. So I was 30. I think if I was 20 and I was a Christian, I don't know if I would be the same response. I don't know. That's just the way all 20-year-olds are maybe just wired, even Christian ones.

But God in his graciousness, you know, I'll be totally honest. When I was at Moody, I lived on campus as a 30-year-old. They call me grandpa. And when I got out of Moody, you know, what am I going to do? And am I going to live out on my own? Am I going to live at home? And I went through a crisis.

I'm in my mid-30s and I'm going to live at home. Everyone's going to look at me like you're immature. You know, you're still living. You know, is your mom doing your, you know, laundry or whatever? I mean, yes.

I hope so. But I know. I feel like, why not?

I don't get the perks. Right. But I went through this where I was almost ashamed of it. And I'm like, you know what?

I'm not. Actually, to be honest, I looked at God's word and I saw that if you're single, you lived at home. And actually, as a matter of fact, when you get married, you actually live with the faith.

Yeah. The biblical days. The biblical days. I'm like, I'm living the biblical way. And I kind of got over that and realized that. But anyway, I think as a mother, it's good to make yourself available.

But I think you want the child to also kind of ask for that. But I'm just going to come back to maybe what might seem like a simple answer, but is not simple. And it is praying and fasting. My mom fasted every Monday for eight years. And then God compelled her to begin fasting and gave no end date. And she ended up fasting 39 days for me. We've lost the spiritual disciplines.

I think we don't do those anymore. Well, if we don't see results in a couple of days, we give up. Yes, because we're praying for something and nothing happens. And my mom will even say this in her own testimony. She fasted for me and God changed her. Wow.

We've lost that. And let people know that you're praying for them. I'm going to be praying for you today. We need to pay privately.

We need to pray corporately. That's good. So, you know, in the end of my first book, I talk about how I came home. I think the chapter title is Coming Home. And, of course, it wasn't so much, yes, I came home home, but it was also coming home to God. But you know the story, Tie a Yellow Ribbon Around the Old Oak Tree? Want me to sing it? By Tony Orlando, right? I'm coming home, I've done my time.

That's right. There you go. You see a yellow ribbon tied around the tree now, and what do we think about?

We think about the military, which is great. But what was the story really about? A guy coming home from what? I've done my time.

Prison. I mean, yes, the story was about him and his wife, but the whole story was, you know, that he wanted to go home to his wife, but he knew. I mean, he was a mess, so he was like, he was giving his wife kind of the chance to say no, but he couldn't face that. So if you want me, tie a yellow ribbon around the old oak tree. So he was on the bus, and he was telling the whole story to the bus driver, and he's like, I can't look.

You have to tell me. If there's a ribbon, stop. If there's not a ribbon, keep driving.

I hope that I'm getting the whole story right. And he came, and there was a yellow ribbon. A hundred yellow ribbons.

A hundred yellow ribbons. So he stopped. So I came home. My parents picked me up from prison. I signed my name, Christopher, right?

Christopher Yuan. So we go home, and we don't have an oak tree on our front tree, but we have a pine tree. So they had to tie it around the pine tree, and I hear, like, something playing.

No. Yeah, and it was tie a yellow ribbon, and I opened the door, and it was a hundred yellow ribbons. But it was all from people who've been praying for me.

Oh, that's good. My mom had sent, like, a couple months before I was going to come home. She knew I was coming home, so she mailed everyone by name. She knew that people who were praying for me, a hundred. And so she sent them. She got a yellow tablecloth, you know, the plastic kind, and she would cut them, you know, because ribbons are expensive. So she, being a thrifty mom, she cut them into ribbons and sent everyone and asked them to sign their name and say an encouraging message. Scripture, you know, I was praying for you.

And then she tied them up and had them. I have a picture, and so they are all up in the foyer. It's beautiful. Moms and dads, prayer works. Yes.

Our prayers make a difference in the lives of the people that we love and our children. That's beautiful. Yeah. And you know, as we've had this conversation, I just keep thinking, somebody is going to shape your thinking about your sexuality, about your desires, about what's acceptable, about what's not. Somebody is going to shape your children's thinking about that. And the question is, is it going to be God and his word or is it going to be a culture that is eager to catechize your kids and catechize each one of us into thinking, this is okay. This is normal.

This is just biology. And you're getting indoctrinated by movies. You're getting indoctrinated by popular culture, by songs. This is where we have to renew our minds. Don't be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. And this is a book that helps us do that. We've got copies of Christopher's book in our Family Life Today Resource Center. You can go online at familylifetoday.com and request your copy of Holy Sexuality and the Gospel.

Again, the website is familylifetoday.com or if you'd prefer to call to order, our number is 1-800-FL-TODAY, 1-800-358-6329, 1-800-F as in Family, L as in Life, and then the word Today. Well, it's been good for us to spend some time in conversation this week with Christopher Yuan. David Robbins, the president of Family Life, has been with us this week. And I know you have found this conversation to be helpful and challenging.

Yeah. You know, today made me reflect on a part of my story when identity in Christ became something I think I first fully understood. I'd heard the term, but it was when it really began to take root deeper in my soul. And really, it's something I haven't stopped learning. I was sitting on a beach at the end of a mission trip in Romania.

We were in a place called Costa Nest, which we affectionately called Costa Nasty because it was nasty. But I was reading my Bible, looking over the Black Sea, recounting the ways God had shown up that summer. And I read, I think, Psalm 139 for the first time that I really remember reading it, where God was overwhelming me with his power and his knowledge and his love for me. And three questions came to my mind that I remember journaling about and being really honest about. And I actually, I started telling myself, I'm going to journal about these three questions every day until I believe on my core that they're really true. And the three questions were, do I believe that I am complete in Christ?

Nothing else is needed. The second question was, do I believe that godliness is more profitable than anything? And the third question was, do I really believe Jesus satisfies my soul more than anything else?

These are three questions I haven't really stopped asking. I got to a point where I really goes, these are true in my life, and it began to have implications on my life. For a believer, everything is meant to flow from our identity being firmly rooted in Christ. And oh, how it changes things when we live out not just being a Christian family that does all the right things that Christians do, but to a family of Christ followers who put Christ before everything. That's what abiding in Christ is all about, isn't it?

That's right. Thank you, David. And I hope you have a great weekend. I hope you and your family are able to worship together in your local church this weekend. I hope you can join us back on Monday when we're going to talk about how we are to complement one another in marriage, not how we say nice things to each other like you look nice today, but how we fit together in marriage. Aaron and Jamie Ivey join us for that conversation.

Hope you can be with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch. Got some extra help from Bruce Gough and of course our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Bob Lapine. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a production of Family Life of Little Rock, Arkansas, a crew ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.