Hope in the Battle

Lust is nothing new. It's been around for a long time. And for that matter, so has pornography. But as author Joe Rigney says, the fact that pornography can be engaged with anonymity today, that's something new. Everybody has this unprecedented access and anonymity. You don't have to keep your eyes down at a store clerk who's, you know, you're buying the magazine from. And so it's that unprecedented access and the anonymity that it brings that really makes this, it takes it to a different level.

And then you add to that, that there are corporations and people whose entire vocation is devoted to hooking you. This is Family Life Today. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. I'm Bob Lapine. You can find us online at familylifetoday.com.

Is there a strategy that is successful for dealing with the issue of pornography? We're going to talk with Joe Rigney about that today. Stay with us. And welcome to Family Life Today.

Thanks for joining us. You know, most of us had not spent a lot of time talking about global pandemics until recently when one was in the news. But I think there is a global pandemic that has been around long before anybody heard about COVID-19. And you've seen this in pastoral ministry.

You've seen this as you've worked with athletes through the years. I'm guessing you're talking about pornography? Yeah, I'm talking about the issue of lust and how that plays in and what's going on with guys and even and with women who are finding themselves engaged in not looking at images as much, but women who are caught up in sexual fantasies or And I think women are caught up in looking at images now, too. And I agree, Bob, I think this is something that's even going to become worse because of our access to the internet and the things that are going on. I think our marriages are really going to be hit. I do know that, you know, as a father, I remember having this thought when I had three sons, my oldest is 34, and I remember having the thought when he was just a little guy, you know, I wonder what it'll be like if he's ever exposed to pornography. And then the thought hit me. It's not an if question.

Yeah, it's a when question in the world we live in. Well, we're going to talk about how we deal with the pandemic and how we help our kids through this. Dr. Joe Rigney is here with us today to help us talk about this. Joe, welcome. Thanks for having me. Glad to be here.

Joe is a pastor in Minnesota, pastor of Cities Church, and he's also an assistant professor of theology and literature at Bethlehem College and Seminary. He has written a book on this subject called More Than a Battle. You experienced this battle personally during adolescence, right?

Absolutely. Yeah, this was sadly a part of my story as you're talking about your kids, you know, growing up. I grew up in the 90s, and so it was a very different struggle in some ways then.

I can't imagine doing it now, but it was very sad. You know, I grieve that it's a part of my story, but it is. And there's things that happen in that kind of adolescence, junior high, high school, up through college that really can kind of shape you and then really kind of set trajectories over time. And it's a deep work of grace to actually have some of those ways you've been formed to be reformed, to be undone. And I'm grateful that God has done that in my life over the last 15 years. And so it can sort of be on this side of it looking back, but being on this side of it, and by it I mean not that sexual temptation isn't an issue at all, that won't happen until glory, but at least now there's been substantial measures of victory and healing and wholeness in relation to this struggle. And so this has been a deeply personal one in my life, and therefore I want to look back and say, I want to spare as many people as possible from having to walk through the sorts of stuff that I had to deal with in high school and college. Joe, I'm wondering, what do you think the percentages are of men that struggle? Oh, I would guess like 99 or 100 percent. I actually think that there was a study... That's depressing. It's so depressing. But there's a story, I've picked it up along the way doing some research, where somebody was going to try to study the effects of sort of the introduction of pornography to men.

And so they said, a psychologist put out a call, hey, if you've never looked at pornography, would you show up and we'll pay you however much money to be a part of the study? And they couldn't get anybody. Nobody showed up. Nobody showed up.

Nobody fit that bill and could do it. And so obviously that's an anecdote, but I think that the reality on the ground is that this is sort of a universal for men and very prevalent, as you were saying, for women more and more. And it's not just that everybody deals with it. It's that substantial numbers of people are neck deep and losing in it.

So that's the greater tragedy. I mean, it's a different day when you said, Joe, you're talking about the 90s. I'm guessing, I don't know exactly when the digital world hit us. But I mean, back then when I was a child, not the 90s, a little earlier, you had to go look for it. You had to go get a magazine. You had to go buy it or fall into it at your buddy's house today. But walk us back, take us back to the struggle that initiated in your own life.

How did it start and how did it progress? Yeah, so for me, you know, it was that sort of thing, you know, kids bringing a boy boy to school and sort of behind the, you know, I was in junior high and everybody kind of sitting around the magazine kind of wide eyed, right? And it's looking back and thinking like that was me. That was, you know, you can kind of distance yourself from it as an adult, but being like, man, there was an innocence that was just lost in that moment. And then the fascination that led to, you know, being over at a friend's house, like you're saying, and late night HBO or something like that. It was those sort of things, right?

But like you said, you do have to go look for it. And you had, you know, you had to get the magazines and, you know, avoid eye contact with anybody that you're buying it from. And then, you know, you fast forward, then you get the digital age, right?

So the Internet comes along. And so that was an issue more for me in college. And then today, it's like, you know, sexual sin, sexual temptation is as old as dirt, right?

This is not a new struggle. Paul had to deal with pagan prostitutes and temple prostitutes and stuff like that. And Victorians have their brothels. It's like, we have brothels in our pocket. Like, that's the new thing is that everybody has this unprecedented access and anonymity.

You don't have to keep your eyes down at a store clerk who's, you know, you're buying the magazine from. And so it's that unprecedented access and the anonymity that it brings that really makes this, it takes it to a different level. And then you add to that, that there are corporations and people whose entire vocation is devoted to hooking you. Like they know how to get the little, you know, the swiping and all that kind of stuff is designed to hook you, not just on your social media, you know, your Facebook and your Twitter and everything else, but to this. And so there's people, there's human beings devoting concerted effort. And then we have to imagine, right, that there's dark powers behind those human powers that are also orchestrating.

And so there's a big array of forces that are trying to destroy individuals, families, churches around this issue. And so I've just felt in my ministry, primarily college students over the last 15 years, man, I see it and I want to help. I want, it's possible. I think that that's the thing that was, this would be a big difference between college me and, you know, 38-year-old me.

And really, you know, 25, 26. Once it happened, it was like, oh, I had no idea this is even possible. I couldn't imagine that you could be free. Like, my imagination was so stunted, I just thought this is, there's a text in the Bible in Romans 8, Paul says, we are debtors not to the flesh to live according to the flesh. And I remember feeling like that's exactly what it feels like. It feels like I'm a debtor to the flesh. It feels like sin shows up, flesh shows up and says, you have to pay up now and there's nothing you can do about it. You're just, you're a slave.

So come on. And when you, when you're trapped there and you can't, you have no horizon to get a different kind of air. And so part of what this whole project is, is I want to, I want to introduce men and mainly men, but I think it could apply to women as well. There's a different air to breathe. The idea that there might be freedom, there might be victory seems elusive for so many guys. I've had the experience of getting an email that I thought was one thing, clicking on the link in the email and going, oh, you know, having to hide the screen and click out of there as quick as I can.

It seeks you out instead of you having to seek it out. And the crazy thing is in some ways, and again, I don't know, Bob, what exactly you're talking about, but the images that you may click on, again, you stumble into compared to 20, 30 years ago, it may have been more like a lingerie ad. Now it's degrading and you're thinking of 10 year olds and eight year olds and 13 year olds. That's an image they see. They should never see that ever.

None of us should ever see that any minute in our life. Did your dad ever have a conversation with you to prepare you for what might be there? Not really. It was very, I mean, there was some, you know, once it was ongoing, you know, there was an attempt, I think, if I remember right, but there wasn't really. So I actually had other, you know, mentors at church and things like that.

It was a little bit awkward with my dad, I guess. He was a Christian and grateful for all of the good things he did, but this was an area where I don't think he knew quite what to do. And so I had mentors at church. And then one of the things that I learned at some point, we formed some accountability groups, peer level, you know, so high school guys. And again, now hindsight, looking back, those were just big puddles of sin.

I don't know that those were actually all that helpful. Like there was something good in it. We wanted to, we knew this was wrong. We knew we didn't want to be addicted to pornography. We didn't want to be doing this, but we were all in it. And so we're all, you know, coming to confess sin and it's like, well, now what do we do? You know, nobody knew how to get out.

Everybody was in the same boat. And so another big element of this is just, you know, my project has been recognizing the importance of mentors and of godly men who are a step removed, who have had substantial victory in this area and therefore can provide that model and that hopefulness. Like, hey, you can come to where I'm at.

Like you don't have to stay in the pit. You can get out by the grace of God because that was a major thing for me in college is I had a, I had a college pastor who I didn't realize all of the good that he was doing to me in counseling me through this struggle. But in hindsight, I'm like, oh man, there was so much wisdom and there was so much, he was, I had the Bible verses. I'd had all those memorized.

I'd read books, but it was his presence that kind of connected the scriptures and my life in such a way that there was actual transformation. And so that's a major element of what I'm trying to encourage is, is communities of men where you have, have guys that have had victory and healing and restoration in this area who are trying to help walk with men who are still in the pit and help them get out. Yeah.

And I think as I listen to you and obviously it's in your book, the value and the importance of a man being in community cannot be overstated. Correct. I mean, and again, I'm not saying women, it isn't a struggle for them.

Same thing. But man, oh man. I mean, just what you just said requires you initiating finding a mentor, you initiating finding men and having the courage to be that real. Because I think, you know, we hide men. I mean, I would just say this. If you're, if you're a man alone with this battle, you're going down.

It's not winnable without other men in your life. Right. Hidden sins kill Christians because they're hidden. Yeah.

And I've never heard the mentor part. You know, that's, that's a different angle. I've heard we need accountability in some ways. I think guys gave up because they went in there and, you know, we, like you said, it was like we shared our sin.

We kept sinning. Yeah. So that needs to be a unique group of men. But the mentor is critical, isn't it?

I've never heard that. To have an older man. An older, an older man. And sometimes it may not even be older. It's mainly someone who on this issue has achieved, by the grace of God, substantial victory. And so that they can provide a hopefulness. Like they can look at you and say, you're not going to be here forever. It may take time.

You're going to have to, there's some things that got to get rewired because you've conditioned yourself by your habits that you formed when you were in junior high and high school. Like there's some things, it's going to take time. It's a long war. It's a long war.

You got to think long term here. Yeah. But you can get here and I want, part of the audience here is I'm a pastor. I want to have something that I can hand to the guys in my church that are doing it, that are living it and say, hey, here, you guys have this. Now go find the guys who are struggling. So it's not just that the guys who are struggling are having to like initiate. That's good. But I want churches to be able to be the sort of place where it's like, it's obvious where you go.

Yeah. You know, like there's a group of men and we know those guys, they know how to pastor guys through this struggle. And they've seen fruitfulness and they've seen hopefulness. And so then guys just go, well, that's where I'm going to go.

There's no question of who has to initiate. For wives to read that and to have older women that are helping them also say there is hope for your husband and for your marriage. Oh, that's so big. Go back and talk to us about, you're talking about being in this pit and these other guys being in the pit. What did that do to your spiritual walk with God? Well, it's interesting. It was like a ping pong match and it was a ping pong match, honestly, between lust and pride. Because basically my spiritual walk, the measuring stick became whether or not I had looked at pornography recently. So if I hadn't, I felt pretty good about myself and kind of got a little swagger. And then it would, so I'd kind of be feeling pretty confident and, you know, it hadn't been all of that long, honestly. But I felt good about myself. And did you feel like I've kicked it?

Yeah. There was a sense of like, oh, okay, I'm good, I'm good. And then all of a sudden here it would come again and I'd fall. And then it would be that kind of this hopelessness, this despair, you know, because that's the way it pulls you in is that there's an allurement. And then the moment you're over the cliff, right, it's accusation, right? That, you know, they're just on you like you're a failure. And, you know, part of what I talked about in the book is the binge trap, which is basically the mentality that says after you failed, well, I already blew it. I might as well blow it a lot.

Right. And I might as well just go whole hog because I'm already down here. You know, it's actually interesting. I've got, after writing the book, I've in our church got some folks that I'm working with on different areas, like on anxiety. And a lot of the same, I just said, hey, why don't you read this? I gave them some of the draft of the manuscript and said, I know this is talking about sexual sin, but sin is sin. Yeah. You know, sin is sin. And so see if reading this helps.

And it actually did. So, I mean, there's ways in which the temptations operate on us and the patterns that we get into are very similar. I thought I picked up a little Jon Owen mortification of the flesh as I was reading through your manuscript. Absolutely. Well, it's interesting. You know, you're talking about sort of the cycle. And I remember, and I'm sure we're all Bible scholars sitting around here, so we're familiar with James 1, 13, where he talks about the pattern of sin. James says, when tempted, no one should say God is tempting me, for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone. By the way, you ever done that? Blame God?

Absolutely. I mean, I have. And then he says, but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.

Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin and sin when it is full grown gives birth to death. And I remember, you know, Joe, you're talking about the feeling of being powerless. And I've shared before, one of my first journeys into that powerless world was on a Detroit Lions trip. Actually, my first ever trip as a chaplain, Detroit Lions, Seattle Seahawks preseason game.

They put me in a hotel room in a nice hotel all by myself. And only a few listeners will remember these days. But that was when they had a little box on your TV where you could order a movie. And there were six movies. I remember standing in front of the TV, looking at this box, looking at the thing. Hollywood, three of them were Hollywood movies.

Three were porn. And as I looked at the thing, I'll never forget, I looked down, I'm married. You know, I've got kids at home. And I look at this little paragraph that says, this will not be added to your room bill until after five minutes, which obviously that changed, but that's how it was. And so the thought in my head is like, I could watch something for four minutes and 59 seconds and nobody will know. And I thought, I'll never do this. And I clicked literally just standing there looking at TV, just clicked on one of those bad channels for probably 10 seconds and turned it off. And that 10 seconds changed my life. You know, it was like you swim into this pit you were talking about. And I remember the next time I walked in the hotel room on the next road trip, it was this power drawing me there. We're talking 10 seconds. And then I had a secret because I come home.

I got to do chapel for the team. And, you know, just like you're saying, Joe, you're living this sort of lie. And so you think about what James says is like you're drawn and dragged in. And the interesting thing about the passage, I'm sure you know, is it's a fishing term.

And so I always thought, so the pattern to lose looks like this. There's bait, right? And he says you have an evil desire. There's burn.

See, I'm a pastor, so we're going to do alliteration here, right? But think about this. You got bait, you desire it, so there's this burn. So here's the choice. You either bite and you end up baked.

He says you die and, you know, not physically. But the other option, let's talk about this because this is where we got to go, is if you win, what's the pattern? Right. Talk about it.

What is the pattern? Because I think some people think you'll never have this desire again. It'll just go away, and there's people that live with this utopia like, well, they just don't have the desire I have, so I can't beat them because they're different.

But I think the pattern is similar, right? There's still bait. Of course, that's up to you. You can eliminate that in some way. But there's still going to be a desire there, but you have to make the choice, right?

You can bite or you can walk away. I think two things there. One is that the image, you've got the fishing metaphor in the text, and then you've also got this, like, pregnancy metaphor, right? Desires conceived, sins conceived, and then it gives birth to death.

That's the language. And so in some ways, what you were trying to do in that hotel room was be a little bit pregnant. Yeah, yeah. And that's oftentimes how we approach this. We want to be a little bit pregnant. I want to get as close to that line as I can but try not to fall over. And honestly, for a lot of guys, it's the full going from pornography up to orgasm.

Like, I can dabble up until then, and I can swim in it. But if I don't go over that cliff, then I've had some measure of victory, which is a lie. It's just you're moving closer and closer to the line, and eventually you're going to get pulled in.

Now, the flip side is success breeds success. Like, there's a way in which when you see the grace of God land to where you can actually feel the pull, feel that temptation, and then walk away, you go, oh, there's something different. You know, one of the things I talk about here is in Galatians chapter 5, Paul says that self-control is a fruit of the Spirit. So there's a way in which God, what is God doing for us in our sanctification? He's restoring control of you to you so that you tell your eyes where to look, you tell your, you know, what hand, what to touch, you tell, you know, what to click on.

Like, you're in control of you because why? The Spirit of God is at work in your life. And so there's a way in which when we are faced with temptation and we're able to, by the grace of God, flee, that's biblical language would be run away, right? Yeah, I use the word bolt. Bolt. That's right. Bolt instead of bike? You are a pastor. That's right. I mean, bolt is like... Probably a Baptist, right? Get out of here.

It's got all Bs going to it. Yeah, you're going to bolt, you're going to run up, you're going to flee, and then when you're running away, you're going, oh, I'm real. Like, the Spirit of God is at work in my life, and that's emboldening. And so there's times actually now, even to this day, where I can kind of feel, you know, that there's a greater degree of pull or that kind of sinful curiosity, and I will look for opportunities to win.

I'll know. I'm going to Target, and you can't walk through. I mean, you're talking about, you know, comes looking for you. You're walking through Target. I just want to get some milk. And it's like, what is going to be all over the billboard?

What's going to be all over as high up where everybody can see it is going to be the lingerie ads and all this kind of stuff or the magazine rack or whatever. It's like, I know that's coming. I tell my eyes where to look.

Because God has taken control of me, and therefore he's restored control of me to me. So I'm going to get a small victory here as I walk out the door, and I'm going to thank God as I walk out the door. I have to say, guys, this topic breeds fear into so many women. I mean, as I listen, I'm thinking of the moms, the grandmothers, the wives that are listening thinking, we don't know what to do.

We don't know how to battle this with our husbands or for our kids. And so I'm glad we're having this conversation because we need help. Well, and I do think this is where a wife can come along and instead of saying, I'm going to be afraid that you're going to fall or that this is going to be an issue for you, she can come along and say, I want to be your ally in the battle here. I may not be able to understand what's actually going on in your thinking, but I do know that this is real for you.

I know this is a challenge for guys. And I think for us as women to enter into the battle with our men and our daughters is really important. Yeah, and I remember when I told Ann, you know, we're talking 40 years ago. I was battling against him.

Yeah, right. I mean, it was one of the scariest moments of my life to admit. And then when I did, I wanted Bob, I wanted her to be my ally, but she had to process anger first, which I didn't really expect.

And fear and pain. And I got mad at her for being mad at me. But she's like, and she thought, this is all about me.

I'm not enough. And, you know, every one of us is going, no, it has nothing to do with you, honey. But a woman doesn't understand that, right? She's like, no, this is, if I was adequate, you wouldn't have to.

I'm like, no, it has in some way. So the journey, though, because we got through it, she got to a place where the anger, again, not in a day or a week, but now you're my ally. You know, it's a beautiful thing. And your book is here to help husbands and wives recognize not only what's going on, but that there is a way to deal with the issue of lust and pornography. Joe's book is called More Than a Battle, How to Experience Victory, Freedom and Healing from Lust. We think this book is so important, we're making it available to anybody who can make a donation to help support the ministry of family life today. When you invest in family life, what you're doing is helping more people more regularly be able to receive practical biblical help and hope for their marriage and their family.

That's a part of our mission, to effectively develop godly marriages and families. When you support that mission, you extend the reach of family life today, we want to say thank you for your support by sending you a copy of Joe Rigney's book, More Than a Battle. Go online to familylifetoday.com to make a donation or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate and ask for your copy of the book More Than a Battle, How to Experience Victory, Freedom and Healing from Lust by Joe Rigney.

Again, donate online at familylifetoday.com or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate, and we look forward to hearing from you. Now, tomorrow we're going to continue our conversation with Joe Rigney, talking about what's really going on in a man's heart when he finds himself being drawn toward lust, toward pornography. Joe will be back with us again tomorrow, hope you can be back with us as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Bob Lapine. We will see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a production of Family Life of Little Rock, Arkansas. A crew ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.