The Marks of a Man

When we think about godly masculinity, Nathan Clarkson says there is not a one-size-fits-all portrait of what that's supposed to look like. It's not about the clothes we wear. It's not about how tall we are. It's not about how muscular we are. It's not about if we can play sports or if we can be in a play. Being a good man is an inward position, so whatever your love, whatever your passion is, be that football or drama, God has put that desire in you, and to be a good man, you have to live that out in the best way possible to use it for him, to use it to make the world a better place. That is what a good man does.

It's going to look different for everyone. This is Family Life Today. Our hosts are Dave and Anne Wilson. I'm Bob Lapine.

You can find us online at familylifetoday.com. So what is the part God wants you to play or God wants your sons to play in helping to make the world a better place? Do they have a vision for that? We'll talk more about that with Nathan Clarkson today. Stay with us. And welcome to Family Life Today.

Thanks for joining us. So you think you got manhood figured out yet? Oh yeah, of course, Bob. I had it figured out at about 11 years old. Did you? Yeah, I'm one of those guys.

Wow, kind of a savant. No, I'm a little older than 11 and I'm still on that journey. I think this is a perpetual journey for all of us as guys. We're continuing to figure it out as life goes on. You don't get to a point where you go, okay, I got it. Do you?

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, literally in the last month I sat down for the first time in my life with like a life coach counselor. Part of my journey was I'm 62 years old. I even said to him, I think it's too late. I'm 31 and feel like that.

I mean, I did. I was like, why am I doing this at this age? And I was sitting with two of my sons three nights ago and they both looked at me and said, way to go, dad. We are so proud that you're taking this journey at this age.

And I said, don't you think it's a little too late? And they're like, no, I mean, we look forward to the next 20, 30 years with you and this insight and this journey is going to be. So I thought no man has really ever figured it out.

And no woman has either. It's always a journey. Yeah, I think it's both. No, women have figured it out for us men. That's how that works. We think we have you figured out more than we have ourselves figured out. Figuring it out, though, involves continuing to be on the journey, continuing to explore themes, continuing to look at these issues.

In fact, that's what we're talking about this week. Nathan Clarkson is joining us. Nathan, welcome back.

Thanks so much. Nathan's an actor, a filmmaker. He's a writer.

We mentioned that he's the son of a famous Christian author, Sally Clarkson. He has written a book called Good Man, which is a part of your attempt to say, what is it that I want to be as a man? What is it that God's calling me to be? I am his workmanship created in Christ for good works, which he prepared beforehand. How do I live that out?

How do I walk in these? And you've identified characteristics that are the kinds of characteristics that you want to be true about your own life, your own journey, and your own pursuit. Absolutely. That's what this book is all about. Well, it's interesting. I hadn't thought of it earlier, but that scene, we talked about movies, very emotional scene in Saving Private Ryan, I think.

I should pull it up. But it's that moment when he goes back to the tombstone and he looks at his wife and says, was I a good man? Tell me I was a good man. I mean, again, why has that hit the heart of a man? Because we want to be known.

Our legacy, good man. Every man asks himself that question, I believe. In some way, shape, or another. But I think every man in his heart wants to be a good man. Really?

That's interesting to know that. Oh, I can see the scene in my mind's eye right now. That's how powerful that question is. Was I? Am I? Then the question becomes, you know, what do you mean, good man?

What is it? And so you've said, Nathan, I'm going to write a book and try and hit the attributes from God's perspective of what a good man is. So give us some of those. You know, I can never fully encompass everything that God has asked us to be with. These are the ones I found in my life that fully kind of got from each angle what I wanted to be.

That got me close to the directions I wanted to walk in my life. But they're things like adventurous. I think that men were born to tell a story and we've talked about that. I think wise. I think men have to take hold of their own wisdom to study, to learn, to grow mentally. I think emotional is one of the chapters. And it talks about how men need to be in touch with their emotions. I got creatives with emotions.

Now, that's interesting. Yeah. And, you know, it's I can't believe my wife stopped you right there. I'm stopping as a woman because we're like, oh, because I think a lot of women, we want our men not to be an emotional mess, but to show emotion.

Absolutely. I think emotions are human. You look at Jesus. Jesus wept.

And I think that's one of my favorite verses in the Bible because it shows that Jesus wasn't just a monolithic. I'm just strong and always to the right age show that he had emotions and he felt the pain that exists in this world. And I think that we all go through pain that exists in this world and we have things that are hard and difficult.

And I think if we don't process those, they're only going to have negative effects on our life. And you even mentioned in the book, you do it. A lot of us men do. I know I've done it. You go through a broken relationship. You stuff it, stuff it. You go to a movie and cry your eyes out. At a dark theater, right?

Yeah, that's exactly. It's a great memory because I had just been through one of the most terrible breakups in my life. And I just stuff it. I'm okay. I'm okay on the phone. How are you doing? I'm fine. Don't worry about it.

Oh, I'm just hanging out. And then I go one night to a movie and I'm surrounded by children and moms who are watching this animated movie. And I'm like, I'll be fine.

Just need something light. By the third act, I'm just sitting there crying and I look over and this mom who was friendly to me earlier looks over and she's crying too and just nod at each other. I didn't feel especially manly, but it was a really important moment for me to find healing, to find strength again, actually. So why is it, Anne, the only woman sitting in this room, that you, and I'm guessing you represent a lot of women, want your man to be emotional?

Why is that a good thing? I think what we want is your heart. We want to know what you're feeling, why you're feeling, for you to be able to express it. If I ask you how are you doing and you're saying fine, but we can tell that things are going on, that you're mad or frustrated or sad, we want to partner with you in that. And so just to be strong and say I'm fine, it doesn't feel like you're our partner. Does that make sense? Absolutely.

Yeah. What is it about a man that sort of wants to stuff it or not let it out? Even to my wife, who I love more than anybody, what is it about us that's like I don't know if I want to go there? I think it's a multitude of reasons, but very often when I look at my own life and why I say I'm fine, it's because I want to be seen as someone who has it together, who can figure this out, who can do it. And also I take pressure on myself because I want to help other people and I think if I show my weakness, then I can't be strong for them. I think there's a multitude of reasons and there's also just pride. I don't want people to see me as weak.

I want to look strong in front of people. And I covered these kind of things in other chapters, like a chapter about honesty, how men need to be honest and part of that is acknowledging what we feel and then authentic. Part of being authentic is being real about our humanity and our mistakes and our doubts and our fears and our failures, that these all lead into men being truthful about who we are in the world we live in.

Let me ask you about the artistic side, the creative side. This is very much a part of how God made you to be. Absolutely. And sometimes guys who are artistic and creative are seen as being less manly.

Absolutely. Did you feel that growing up? Yeah, not in my family. My family is all very artistic and outside the box.

We play music and draw. I felt very at home in my family, so that was encouraged. But I remember when I would go to school, when I became a teenager and moved into a new town, I wanted to experience and find friends and be with my peers. And I remember being surprised at the very intense amount of bullying I received because I would sing and because I would dance.

My hair was crazy and I loved artistic things. And I remember being surprised by that because all I'd ever experienced is creativity is good and beautiful and men can do it. But I remember being surprised by how much bullying there was as a result of creativity. So it's interesting to see that men oftentimes have experienced bullying or negative reactions by living into maybe even a way they were made to be that just doesn't fit the cultural mold of what they feel like they're supposed to look like. It's really sad that that's sort of a cultural mold. I mean, I know it was when I was in high school.

I think it's still there, but I actually gave into the peer pressure. I mean, Bob, when you ask that question, I'm like, oh, my goodness, I was a creative, artistic guy, but I was an athlete and it was a really unique blend because that doesn't usually go. And I remember I was in the high school orchestra, played upright bass. And I remember I played that because my mom made me when I was in sixth grade.

She's like, you're going to play this. I'm like, it's the biggest thing in the thing. And we got to put it in the car.

She got a special car with a flip down seat in the back in the 70s, you know. And I started playing dun, dun, dun, da, you know, Beethoven. And really getting a cultural exposure I never would have gotten. Today I play electric bass and it's because of that. So that's cool. Electric bass is cool. That's really cool.

Totally. And I'll never forget, you know, I was the quarterback of the high school football team and I talked to all my buddies on the team to come to a symphony orchestra concert at our high school. And I'm proud. I'm up there, second chair. I should have been first chair, but I was second chair.

Susie Cup was first chair. So I'm playing beside her and the cello's in front of us and we're playing this orchestral stuff in a bow tie in a tux, you know. I mean, I walked out afterwards like, hey man, so what do you think? And they're like, dude, what was that? I'm like, what?

You, you are the most feminine. You know, they ripped me. I quit. Wow.

And I'm thinking now, wow, the peer pressure from those guys thinking I wasn't manly because I was artistic stopped me. Think about. How sad. Think about the 14-year-old in high school today who hears on the announcements. Do they still do announcements at the beginning of the school day? I don't know.

I don't know. Do they have school, Bob? But he hears this afternoon, if you're interested in trying out for the choir, there are choir tryouts in the gym. Or the play is having auditions if you want to be in the play. Or the cross country team is trying out. And you think, okay, those are my choices.

I could go to choir rehearsal or I could go to the play rehearsal or I could go to cross country. And then you start to process what are my friends going to think based on those choices that I make. And this is how the cultural mold of what is real manhood starts to push guys in a direction that may not be who they're supposed to be.

Instead of leaning into this is who God made me to be, how can I to his glory be creative and artistic and be involved in music or drama or whatever else instead of going out for the cross country team. But part of the reason for this is, let's just be honest, the cute girls like the guys on the track team more than the guys who are trying out for the play. I'm looking at you, Anne, because you were one of the cute girls and you liked the jocks better than the guys going out for drama, didn't you? I would say that quarterback of the football team was pretty cute. Here's the thing, though.

I don't know, Bob. I think the culture has changed. I do, too.

In a good way. I think girls are attracted to Zac Efron, the lead in the play. And you look at one of the most manly men in movies today is an artist. And yet you would say, oh, The Rock? He's a man. He's an artist. He's an actor who's really skilled at what he does.

And obviously he spends a lot of time in the gym. But, I mean, I think it has changed in some ways for the good. Well, Nathan, how would you coach a son? You don't have a son yet, but if you have a son, how will you coach him to be himself if he is artistic, having gone through the bullying that you went through? I think what I remind him is that the world's always going to want to give an outward image as to what we should be. And this goes for men, for women, for everything. But you look at the verse that God says, man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart. I think ultimately what I want to convey through this book is that a good man will look different from man to man. My brother and I are almost complete opposites, but both of us have a desire to be a good man. And I think that when we have that in mind, when we realize that good men is an inward position, it's an inward position towards God and who he's called us to be, that it's not about the clothes we wear. It's not about how tall we are.

It's not about how muscular we are. It's not about if we can play sports or if we can be in a play, that being a good man is an inward position. So I'd tell him whatever your love, whatever your passion is, be that football or drama, that God has put that desire in you. And to be a good man, you have to live that out in the best way possible to use it for him, to use it to help, use it to make the world a better place. That is what a good man does.

It's going to look different for everyone. Do you feel any of it today as a man? Because you're an actor, you're involved in the arts today. Do you feel like if people say, so what do you do? And you say, I'm an actor. Do you feel like people are automatically making a judgment about your manhood?

Not anymore. I definitely, you know, when I was younger, I think when I was looking into what I want to do with the rest of my life, I think they're the things that I would judge my manhood off of. You know, if my friend would go into financing or this person would be doing this kind of thing or that kind of thing, I would think, well, acting isn't what a real man does.

Even just culturally, you know, I went to acting school and my friends went to college. And so I've been insecure about, well, I don't have the college degree that everyone else has. So maybe I'm not as much of a real man. So I think there's a lot tied up with what a real man is and isn't. But I always return to ultimately what God tells real men are is a hard position.

How are we going to use your skills? And this is where as parents and as even in our own assessment of our manhood, we've got to recognize we don't take our cues from what the culture says manhood is. We look at what does the scripture say? You keep coming back to 1 Samuel.

Men look at the externals. God looks at the heart. Your book is full of character qualities that are godly character qualities. And a real man is a man who's a man after God's own heart and who's trying to line his life up with who has God made me to be. Whatever the outward expression of that, if it's godliness, then that's what we celebrate. Yeah, and I think it's interesting as you said earlier that as you began to say, okay, what's a good man? You said Jesus is a good man. Was there any of these qualities or characteristics that sort of surprised you?

Like, boy, I didn't expect to find that. Yeah, you know, actually, many of them, you know, there's a few of them that we've heard of often, you know, adventurous. And we think of that, oh, of course, as a manly quality. But some of these did take me by surprise as I went back and looked at the aspects of Jesus that inspired me, the ones like simple.

Because, you know, I think as men, we want to gain and achieve and show and have trophies and things we've accomplished. And Jesus was a simple man. He barely left the town he grew up in. He would hang out with very simple people and love children and the people very near him. I think the one like emotional, we've gone over that, but that's not something you think of when you think of a strong man is one who can be brave enough to be emotional. I think authentic. The one who's willing to be honest about his humanity. These are all the ones that surprised me because they're so different than what the image of men we've been given from many places, both often in our churches and in culture, of what we're supposed to look like. And when I look at Jesus, I go, that's an entirely different picture than I've been given very often. Yeah, and one that I found in there that surprised me, I mean, I like it.

Was romantic? Yep, that's it. I knew she was going to, you knew it, she was going to jump on it. I was like, oh, what's that one about? Yeah, so talk about that a little bit because the cultural image is men are about sex. They have many sex partners. You know, there's even an aspect that a real man, you know, has money, has women, has success. I mean, that's the culture.

I mean, obviously, 33 years in the NFL working with men, that was their vision. Man, I'm now a man. I have the car.

I mean, there's a peer pressure in an NFL locker room that's just like a middle school. Oh, yeah. Oh, dude, you got to go get the car.

Like, I just, yesterday I was in college. Yeah, but you just got the bonus check. Let's go. And you can see these rookies like, go where?

Why? I don't need the, let's go. And they come driving back with a $100,000 car. And then let's go to the strip club. Literally, land the plane from a road trip, guys would go to strip clubs, married men.

It's like this peer pressure was like, they had to fight against it. But that was like, this is what men are. Yes. You're saying, no, that's not what a man is. Romance is totally different than a sexual-driven crazy man.

What's it mean to be a good man who's romantic? All the women are asking. Yes, they are. Yeah. This was an interesting chapter to write because it's so nuanced and there's so many feelings about it from every different angle, but romance and love is such a big part of the human experience, either the lack thereof or people who have it and are in relationships. We know what an important aspect and a meaningful one this is to the human experience. And so to ignore it when talking about men and their journeys in their lives would be disingenuous.

So I wanted to explore this and how do we do this right? Again, it goes back to that creation aspect. God created something beautiful and that's romance, love, sexuality.

These are wonderful things that God created, but to fully live into the way he made them to be lived out, to enjoy them and live them out in the way he created them, we have to go back to his design and to look at it. And in the world today, we see that men have walked away in large part from everything that God has created all of these things for. And that's very sad, I think, because one, I think you end up with a lot of destruction from both women and men who have fallen into the world's very cheap and low view of romance, relationships, sexuality, et cetera. And it leaves for a lot of really hurt people. And I think we see that every single day. And two, I think that all these things are made to be a blessing, to be beautiful things in our lives.

And when we use them in ways that God has not created them for, we'll never get to live fully into that beautiful blessing that he's given. And so I think this is a really important thing that I see men struggling with every day. You look at the statistics, even with Christian men, even with pastors about pornography, you look at, you know, I lived in Los Angeles and New York, I have for the past over a decade now. And so I'm surrounded by men who abuse women, who objectify them, who hurt them, but they take it very lightly in the hookup culture. And you see these hearts being broken daily. And I look around and I see how men think about relationships and love.

And it really is sad because you see this have really negative effect on culture and the lives of the people engaging in this culture. So I wanted to look and say, what did God create love to be? And how does that bless a man's life and how can he bless the world through how he carries out romance, love, attraction, sexuality, all these things are just so intrinsic to being a man because I think they're really important. And I think men are reeling from the destruction of using God's gift in the incorrect way. Yeah.

There's part of me that thinks, tell me if I'm right. And you've got it in your book in a different way, but I was listening to you thinking a real man, a good man is intimate. You say it emotional, authentic, but I think it's a real struggle for men. It is for me.

Yeah. Intimate means I will be vulnerable. And you're not going to be that with a hundred people. You're going to be that with a few, but especially my wife or a good friend or two, which means I'm going to share weakness.

I'm going to go places that are really scary with my struggle and share that with my wife or with a best friend. And I think men are terrified. I know I'm terrified.

What's terrifying about that? It's scary to be that weak and that vulnerable. Oh, it feels weak.

It's weak. It's like, I don't know where this may go. What if I really expose the inner?

What if I get hurt? I don't know if I can trust you. Right.

Yeah. Even your wife after all these years, and so you don't go there. She's longing for it, but you don't go there. And so because you're not going there or afraid to go there or unwilling, you go to porn, a cheap form of intimacy. It's not intimate.

It seems like it is, but it isn't. And that's easier. And it's a defense mechanism to cope with, I can't be the good man God's called me to be. And yet if I will, oh my goodness. Well, I thrive as a man. My marriage will thrive. My brotherly relationships, everything will thrive. But it's a risk that's scary for a man to take.

And if I do it, guess what? I'll be more romantic than ever. Because romance is about loving and serving her needs, not mine, and thinking outside myself. And that comes out of being able to be truly intimate. You know, a couple years ago, Dennis Rainey wrote a book called Stepping Up a Call to Courageous Manhood. And we did a video series around this because we knew guys were wrestling with something inside of them saying, I want to be a godly man.

I just don't know exactly how to do that. So we tried to get guys together, create a roadmap, help guys out with this. One of the things I remember Bodhi Bakkum saying in that series is that guys tend to define manhood around three areas. He said it's around the billfold, around the ball field, and around the bedroom. And he said they think that's what real manhood is.

You're a success with your billfold, on the ball field, and in the bedroom. And he said that's not God's design for manhood. And Nathan, what you're doing with this book is you're taking us into that same territory and saying let's not buy the cultural picture here. Let's renew our minds with a biblical approach to what it means to be a man as God created us to be man. I think this is going to be so helpful for guys today. And I'm grateful you'd come and talk with us about it and help us spend some time exploring this. I hope a lot of guys will dive into your book. Thanks for being here. Thank you so much for having me.

It's been an honor. You can find out more about Nathan's book when you go to our website, familylifetoday.com. The book is called Good Man, an honest journey into discovering what men were actually created to be. Order the book from us at familylifetoday.com or call to order, 1-800-FL-TODAY is our number.

Also, check out the video series called Stepping Up, A Call to Courageous Manhood, based on Dennis Rainey's book by the same title. That video series is available for groups of guys to go through together or for fathers to go through with their sons. Find out more at familylifetoday.com or order Nathan's book or the video series when you call us at 1-800-358-6329.

That's 1-800-F as in family, L as in life, and then the word today. Speaking of small groups and video series, we are this week beginning to take preorders for the brand new Love Like You Mean It small group series for couples. This is a 10-part series that's based on my book, Love Like You Mean It, which is all about what 1 Corinthians 13 tells us about what love is supposed to look like in a marriage relationship. We've been very encouraged by the response to the book, and that's why we created this video series so that couples can go through this with other couples.

There's an assessment each of you can take to help you get an idea of where you're winning and where you could use some help when it comes to loving one another. David Robbins, who's the president of Family Life, is here with us. And David, we've been talking about guys being good men today, a guy who would say to his wife, you know, let's go through this study together with some other couples. That's what good men ought to do, don't you think?

No doubt, and I think if you want to be a man that leads your wife, then being someone who rejects passivity and steps in and says, let's do this together with a few other friends, there's nothing more attractive to a wife than that. And Bob, you have done an amazing job setting up a series of conversations for a couple to have with other couples, and we know we've seen it time and time again at Family Life that there's transformation when married couples join in with a few others and spend time together over timeless truth. You end up getting different perspectives in the mix.

People drive home or in the Zoom call talking about things that they don't normally talk about, and transformation happens. Well, and again, we'd encourage you to go to our website, familylifetoday.com, for more information about the Love Like You Mean It video series, or call us if you have any questions at 1-800-FL today. And we hope you have a great weekend. Hope you and your family are able to worship together in your local church, one way or another, this weekend. And I hope you can join us back on Monday when we're going to continue to look at what the Bible tells us about what real love looks like. Specifically, we'll talk about the fact that love is kind.

Not just nice, but kind. Hope you can tune in for that conversation on Monday. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Bob Lapine. We'll see you back Monday for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a production of Family Life of Little Rock, Arkansas, a crew ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.