What is a Good Man?

Nathan Clarkson grew up in a Christian home. Like a lot of young adults, he decided to see what life would be like apart from God. I always have pretty much believed God was there. Of course, I've had my, you know, moments in the night wondering, but it's been pretty consistent.

I believe God is there. But I think when it came to my prodigal years, when I first tasted independence, it tasted good. And I started thinking, I wonder what it would be like if I was a king of my life and the decisions. And being kind of the outside the box independent kid, I wanted to say in my life, I can do this. I can figure this out.

I don't need this guidance. This is Family Life Today. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. I'm Bob Lapeen. You can find us online at familylifetoday.com. We'll hear today about Nathan Clarkson's prodigal years and about what led him to ultimately decide he wanted to be a good man. Stay tuned. And welcome to Family Life Today. Thanks for joining us.

I think we should put Dave on the spot to start. So here's my question for you. Is there such a thing? Okay, I'm done. No, no, no, no. The answer is yes, there is such a thing.

Such a thing as toxic masculinity. Oh, boy. Yeah, see? Why don't we just go deep?

Jump straight in. You know, I think my wife would answer that better than me. I think yes.

I think there is such a thing. In what way? I think when men dominate and with their strength, their power, without loving and serving, and it becomes all about them, that is very toxic, in my opinion. You know, if you think about the verse that we all come back to in 1 Corinthians 16, 13, and 14 that says, be on the alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong. Do everything in love.

So if love's not in the equation, it can become toxic. We want to talk today about what good masculinity is and look at it really not from the lens of what does culture say it is, but what does the Bible say it is? And this is something you've been passionate about for years. Yeah, I mean, when I saw this book title, Good Man, I'm like, this is a book I want to read. This is a book every man should read. I think women, too, but it's like, what is a good man?

And so today we get to talk about the definition. You know, it's interesting because I think women like to hear this, and I was trying to think about it last night. I thought, what is it in me as a woman that stirs me up about wanting this topic to be talked about? What do you guys think?

I think there's something in all of us that want to see men be good men. And that when we see it, we're drawn to that. And Nathan Clarkson's joining us because he wrote the book.

I wrote the book on it. Nathan, welcome to Family Life Today. Well, thank you for having me. I'm honored to be here. Nathan is an author, he is a filmmaker, he's an artist, a poet, says here a full-time wannabe philosopher.

Oh, yeah. A musician, and we should also acknowledge that you are the son of a famous writer. I am. Yeah, tell us about your mom. Yes, Sally Clarkson. Some of you may know her.

I know her as mom, and she has written a lot of books on family and motherhood and women's issues. And I was really blessed to grow up in a family in which giving kids a godly legacy was a focus point. Is there pressure growing up in a home like that?

One thousand percent. I still feel it. 31 years old, I'm still feeling the pressure of wanting my parents and the things they poured their lives into to matter.

Now, did they put the pressure on you, or is it just inherent? I was the third kid. I often consider myself the black sheep. In many ways, the prodigal. I had many prodigal years. And one way I was really blessed is I was never expected by them to be anything other than what God had created me.

So, it was never about performance, it was never about, you know, you are Clarkson, so make sure you look good in front of all these people. And I'm really blessed to have that as a legacy. Any of the pressure definitely comes from exterior places, whether it's people who really want us to be something, or eyes looking at us hoping that we can be some sort of hope or example. The pressure certainly does come from that, but I think most people in any kind of public sphere will feel that pressure.

But I was lucky and blessed enough to not feel that from my family where I was allowed to be an imperfect person. And you wrote a book together with her, right? I did.

My first foray into authoring was a book called Different, and it was about, you know, I grew up with mental illness and learning disabilities, and she was the mom of a very outside-the-box kid, and it was our story, and it was told from two perspectives, what it's like to be a kid with mental illness and learning disabilities and an out-of-the-box personality, and what it's like to be a mom of a different kind of kid. I think the thing that struck me the most as I was watching an interview with the two of you was she said, Nathan is one of my very best friends. Did you feel that growing up, that she really loved being with you? Yes. You know, today she's still one of my very best friends. Really?

So that's reciprocal. Oh, absolutely, yeah. There was a very, you know, obviously there was a mother in some relation. She was my guide. She taught and shaped me, but there she saw me as a person, and she would listen to me, and she would hear my heart because she saw me as someone created by God with insight and calling, and so that was kind of how we were raised.

We were people to be connected with. You're musings in this book on what does it mean to be a good man, to wrestle with, is there such a thing as toxic masculinity? What is masculinity?

What am I supposed to be as a man? But all of that is birthed out of your own story and what you've already talked about, dealing with mental illness, dealing with prodigal years. I mean, take us into the first 30 years of your life and what shaped the foundation for you to even be grappling with this subject?

You know, that first 30 years of my life will start at the beginning. Yeah, so you know a little bit about my origin story and my family, and I was always given this vision for God. I was introduced to God in a very real way. It wasn't a set of rules.

It wasn't a tradition for me. I was introduced to God as a person, a relationship, so belief was never a huge issue for me. It was something God was very real in my home, but following him was a different matter.

And you know, of course, being a young kid with a lot of eyes on me, my dad being a pastor for a time, my mom being a popular Christian writer and speaker, growing up in that I had the understanding of God, but there were times in my life where I challenged if I wanted to be a part of the movement of following Jesus, if it really was beneficial, if that's what I want to do, I want to try out being the king of my own life. I did deal with mental illness and learning disabilities and feeling different and outside the box. Can you explain, I mean, people hear mental illness and learning disabilities, what were you dealing with?

Yeah, so it's a whole list as far as learning disabilities. I had dyslexia and ADHD, and I pretty much got yelled up by I think every teacher I had in my entire life, which is funny now when I look back, but it's really hard for a kid to feel different from all the other kids and to really feel bad. You were the kid in the class that what? Why was she yelling at you? I think it was because I had this curiosity for life. I wanted to, and that's a nice way to say I was a troublemaker. I like how you said that, though.

Every mom, we see that part of our kids. See, that's what moms do, which is beautiful, but I would ask the questions and I would continue with the why. Well, why? Well, why? Why?

Keep on going. And I think that was really hard for a lot of teachers. I would be the one who would talk a lot because I had so many thoughts going on in my head.

I'd be the one who would tell jokes and want to be funny. And these are all innocent good things, but in a setting in which you have to conform, that was really hard for me and obviously hard for those teachers. And so getting in trouble often, you find that you start feeling like you're inherently bad, that there's something wrong with you, even though a lot of those personality traits are just that, personality traits. But that was hard for me as a kid.

You know, my sister once said about me that, you know, Nathan gets in trouble for saying the things that we're all thinking. And that's kind of been the story of my life. So I felt very often from, again, external forces in my life, not from my family, which I'm very lucky. I can imagine kids who have felt that, but that there was something wrong with me, inherently wrong. Now, none of that sounds like a mental health.

Well, and then there's another side. And I was dealing from a young age with very severe obsessive compulsive disorder, which had an incredibly big impact on my life and still does through years of counseling and practice. It's been something that now I control as opposed to controlling me. But as a kid, especially an adolescent going through that growing up phase kid, it was something that plagued me every day, my thoughts.

What did that look like? How did that manifest itself for you? Essentially, for me, it looks different in every journey and every person. But for me, it was inability to control my thoughts and be thoughts I don't want. It'd be thoughts that would cause me guilt and shame and it would be nonstop. So I'd have this cloud of darkness, which pretty soon introduced me to experiencing pretty severe depression early on as a kid. And that's something that I fought with, again, for the rest of my life. And a lot of those are because of external factors, you know, sad, hard things that have happened in my life.

And a lot of those are internal with imbalances and just how I was created and living in a broken world. But all those things added up to a kid who really wanted to be a good man. I was inspired by stories as a kid.

Everything about me wanted to be Superman. Now, here's a question before we get any further. What did your mom or dad do with you as a child?

Because there's moms and dads listening right now saying, this is my daughter, this is my son, I'm not sure how to parent this person. What did they do? What was helpful? I think for me it was the most helpful thing is my parents looked at me as a unique creation by God, not something to fit a mold that they had preconceived. They didn't expect me to be my brother.

They didn't expect me to be my sister or my sister or my brother to be me. They saw me as a uniquely created being with my own individual interests and desires and personality. And so being able to be an individual and one who is celebrated for the differences I had in my life, one who is both celebrated and guided in them. I'm not saying just hands off, let them do whatever they want, but I was guided and celebrated for the differences in my life that had an impact on me, that lasted to this day that I can live into the unique creation that God created me to be. I don't have to look like something else.

I don't have to be someone else. God has created me uniquely and intentionally for a purpose. So with that message given to me, even as a young child, that has affected how I live my entire life today.

That's beautiful. It's inspiring. And I think as parents, because we have a son that has ADD, and it's gut wrenching as a parent to watch a child struggle and to watch a child feel different and to see them struggle in school and be in trouble and have teachers say things. I would almost guarantee that your parents were seeking God's wisdom continually. Every time I would go to God like, Father, what do you see?

What's going on with this son? And every time I would feel God rejoicing over him. And isn't he remarkable? When the world may not say he's remarkable because he's not fitting into their mold or their box, I think God is relishing who he created. Like, look at him. Look at the unique differences in him.

Isn't he fascinating? Where I think that piece of walking with God and going to him regularly on behalf of our kids and asking God's eyes on our kids to see them the way he created them, that's what gives us hope. And based on your mom and dad's just kind of their reflection of you, like, oh, yeah, they were just going to God and saying, look at this masterpiece you made.

Have you gone back and debriefed with them about what it was like raising you when you were 15 or 17 and had them process that with you? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, we definitely have. We look back. I think we're all happy that I made it through those years. We're now on the other side.

We can look back and laugh. But, yeah, I think if there's another thing I was going to add to why I was so lucky to be in my family and what really had a positive effect on me, it was also communication. I was allowed to express my heart and we're still communicating and laughing and talking, but I was allowed to express what I was thinking, what I was dealing with, the doubts I had, the struggles I was having, even as a teenager when I would get in trouble and do things. You know, I can't say on air I had the ability to call my parents and say, I'm in trouble. I did something. I messed up and know I was going to be met with both grace and guidance.

I think those two things are very influential and important when raising a kid. What did that look like? When you would sit at the table and you would press against maybe some of their values or, you know, some of the things that they were living and really preaching, what did that look like, those conversations? It looked like them taking what I was thinking and feeling seriously and pushing back like an adult. I was seen as someone who could have my own ideas, and if I was going to have my own ideas, I needed to defend them, but I wasn't punished for them. I wasn't looked at as a lesser person because I was struggling or thinking or doubting or thinking something new. Even today, me and my family sit around the table and still argue into the night with each other about theology and politics, what have you, but at the heart of it, we all know that we're all thinking and we respect each other and we are all meeting on a ground of respecting the other person and knowing that they are thinking and trying to figure this out too.

I know we're kind of not yet to your book, but I'm curious about the prodigal years. What spun you out and what brought you back? You know, it's interesting being raised in a Christian family in the Christian bubble, per se, in the Christian culture. I think you can become used to God. I got used to the movements of youth group in church. I got used to the talk. I always have pretty much believed God was there. Of course, I've had my moments in the night wondering, but it's been pretty consistent. I believed God is there, but I think when it came to my prodigal years, when I first tasted independence, it tasted good, and I started thinking, I wonder what it would be like if I was a king of my life and the decisions and being kind of the outside of the box independent kid, I wanted to say in my life, I can do this. I can figure this out.

I don't need this guidance. And so, you know, there were many years in my life in which I am an independent person. I learned to be an independent through a lot of the things I dealt with. That led me to wanting to make my own independent decisions when it came to God and His way as well. And so very often, I think we all know how prodigal decisions and choices away from God look and where it ends up, but I was lucky enough to, in my prodigal decisions, in my destructive choices, have places that invited me back into God's grace and truth. And the coming home, was it a point in time or was it gradual?

I think the coming home has been about a thousand times over the past 30 years. You know, the story envisions the son leaving and coming home once, and I think I have left and come home and left and come home and left and come home, but I always come home, and I think that's a testament to the God I was introduced to in my family. You know, one of the things you said earlier was this beautiful statement of your identity in Christ.

I don't know if you even remember saying it, but it's throughout your book as well. How did that realization come to be for you? Because I'm guessing you didn't always understand who you were as a child of God the way you stated earlier, especially in the prodigal years. What led you to a place where you understand a good man, identity in Christ?

It just hit me when you said that. I said, man, not too many people articulate their image bearers of Christ like you did. I'm guessing that was a journey.

Absolutely. I keep on looking at my walk and most everyone's walk, and I realize that God is a God of process. It's a process that continues over a long period of time, and so it's definitely an image and an identity that I've learned to accept and learn to grow in. But I think for me, as a creator, someone who loves to write and create and put things together, I realized as I'm going through Scripture, very often at the low points of my life when it's the only thing I have to turn to, I see that God is, you know, we hear Him referred to as our Father, which He is. We hear Him referred to in a lot of different ways, but He's our Creator, meaning we were designed. And if we are created and designed, we are created and designed with purpose. And the realization that I had a purpose on my life, that I was created for a reason, to be something, that I'm not here randomly, that I'm here because a creator, an artist, said, I want this to exist and create it intentionally, I think that has always brought me back to the question, okay, I am created by a creator. What am I created for? And I think that's where I start, and I have, I try to return to when I get lost when searching for my identity in Christ. What was I created for?

Because I was created by Him for something. And part of that journey, obviously, was I want to find out what a man is, a good man. So tell us about that journey. How did you start that journey? How did you end up writing this book?

What's behind that whole thing? Well, I think, you know, in my first chapter, I talk about this intrinsic desire on every little boy's heart. I, you know, I tell a story about the first time I saw my first PG-13 movie was Lord of the Rings. And I, after that, wanted to be Aragorn. I wanted to be the characters in this story. And previous to that, I wanted to be Superman.

I had all these ideas in my mind of who I wanted to be. I had, from a very young age, the desire to be something great, to be a hero. And I think that desire to be something great and good is natural and intrinsic and it's God-given.

And I think when I look back and I wanted to be a hero, whether in Lord of the Rings or Superman, whatever it was, I think that desire still lives in me today and lives in all men, that we want to do something great. We want to do something good. We want to have a positive effect on the world. But somewhere along the way, be it culture, be it circumstance, be it life, we stop listening to that little voice in us that says, you can be something great. You can do something with your life. Your life can have purpose.

And we fall into what culture tells us we are and we fall into just life and hardness. And we let that little voice be overshadowed and out-talked by a hard and broken world. But for me, I look back and I want to capture that voice that says you can do something, you can be something, that desire to be a good man. And so I had that desire as a kid, right?

I had that. And as I grow up, like I was talking about the dark and hard world has quieted that voice often and muffled it. And often I find myself in places where I go, this is not the man I envisioned that I wanted to be. This is not a heroic place to be. This is not the vision I had in my head. And so I want to return to that initial desire that I think is an intrinsic on every man's heart to be something good. But I think a lot of men in culture today have forgotten that voice or they just don't care anymore. And I don't want to be one of those men.

I want to be one who remembers that I was created for a purpose by God. You know, you mentioned going to a movie. I wonder, Bob, is this true for you?

Because it is for me and obviously for you. You know, movies stir something in the soul of a man. I'm guessing... You're talking to a filmmaker, an actor here.

He knows this. I mean, the joke in our house with my buddies is Dave cries at movies, doesn't cry in real life. And I cry at every movie.

Every movie. Even, I mean, this is a joke in our family, but we went on a mission trip years ago and we're flying back. And we're watching, you know, we're sitting in our little seat. My son, Cody, is how old? I think he was about 14. He's sitting beside me, you know, flying home from this mission trip.

Costa Rica. And I have my little movie on and my little plane seat. It was Firehouse Dog. I'm watching the dumbest movie you've ever seen in your life. It's ridiculous. I don't even know why I watch it.

Sounds good. Some dog that was in the firehouse that got lost and they had to go find him. I think he liked it. And somebody looks over and he goes, are you crying at Firehouse Dog?

I'm like, you know, it's tender. And it's the biggest joke ever is like, Dad cried at Firehouse Dog. Because he doesn't cry in real life. But the question is, Bob, do you cry at movies? I do. Yeah.

What is it? Because, again, I know women cry anyway. I can't wait for you to answer this because I've been asking this for years. Well, I think, I think, Nathan, you just hit it, at least in my and again, just a limited layman's perspective. But there's story and there's a stirring in any movie. There's a tension and there's a journey. Absolutely. And I think there's something in the soul of a man that wants to take that journey.

I think you're absolutely right. I mean, I think we are intrinsically story oriented people. You look at God. He shared his word through scripture, through a story.

Look at the story of Israel. And then you have Jesus come in the world and the way he shares truth is through stories. He shares parables. I think there's something intrinsic to humanity that inside of each of us that responds to stories. We want to live in a great story, want to be a character in a great story.

And it's unfortunate that many of us have forgotten. Well, let me ask what happens to a man that makes him lose that drive to want to you because everyone wants to live in that story. How do you get lost?

Yeah, my thought was, and Nathan's the author, so the expert needs to answer. My first thought was, and I remember in college football, we would go out, the football team, we stayed in a hotel on Saturday nights and we'd always go to a movie. Every Saturday night before our home game, go to a movie. And I walk out of theater every time in tears and I want to be that guy. You know, the hero in the movie, I want to be that guy. And then when you get into life, you fall short. Yeah. You're inspired, but life is hard. And I think the journey of a real man, a good man is to live the movie.

Yes. Not to be the hero, but I'm going to be my wife's man. I'm going to be my son and daughter's man. And that's hard.

And that requires what does that look like? Because it's easy to see the story on a screen, but to walk out and live that is the tension and the struggle of being a man. But I think that's what God put in us. You can be that man. That's exactly it. I've made you to be that man, but you're going to have to take steps to do it.

And you write in your book, these are the steps. This is what it looks like. It's better than a movie. It's real life.

I don't know what Bob would say. I think you're there. I think we are inspired. We fall short. And no guy likes to keep playing a game that he's not good at. So if every day you're trying to be this guy and you just go, I'm not that, you give up after a while. Oh, it's so hard as a wife. Well, it's hard when the wife says you're not that too. Not that my wife has ever said that.

I just got married, so I'm pretty good right now, guys. But I'm saying that we as women, as wives and moms, we see it in our men. We see the greatness, but we also see the discouragement. And so then we're trying to do everything we can to get him to live out that role.

And that's what you're saying. Sometimes it doesn't come out as encouragement. Well, this is where to have somebody paint a picture for you. Like what you've done in the book, Nathan, is so helpful for a guy to be able to say, okay, I can lean into that.

I can do that. Draw me a picture. Show me what to do.

And point me in the right direction. And Nathan's done that in the book Good Man, an honest journey into discovering who men were actually created to be. Go to familylifetoday.com to order your copy of Nathan's book.

Maybe get a number of copies and do this as a small group with other guys. Again, the title of the book is Good Man by Nathan Clarkson. Order online at familylifetoday.com or call to order.

1-800-FL-TODAY is our number. And of course, keep in mind, we've helped produce a video series a few years ago called Stepping Up, a call to courageous manhood, based on Dennis Rainey's book by the same name. That video series is available for guys to go through as well. So if you're looking for something to get together with a group of guys, lock arms and say, let's be the men God has called us to be.

Get a copy of Nathan's book. Find out more about the video series Stepping Up. Again, all of the information you need is available at familylifetoday.com. Speaking of small groups, and I know small groups are a little tricky right now because some groups are getting together in socially distanced ways.

Other groups are meeting virtually online. The new video series we put together, Love Like You Mean It, based on the book I wrote from 1 Corinthians 13. The response to that book is what led us to put this 10-part video series together for couples to go through with other couples so that you can get a better understanding of what real love is supposed to look like in a marriage relationship. We've got some sample video available for you online at familylifetoday.com. You can find out more about how your group can engage in this study. Go to our website familylifetoday.com for more information.

Find out how to order the DVDs and the workbooks or how to stream the video series online. Again, go to familylifetoday.com for more information about the new Love Like You Mean It video series for couples, all based on 1 Corinthians 13. Again, the information is at familylifetoday.com, or call if you have any questions, 1-800-F as in Family, L as in Life, and then the word Today. Now, tomorrow we're going to talk more about what real manhood looks like and about some of the traps that are out there for guys that we've got to be careful to avoid. Nathan Clarkson joins us again tomorrow. Hope you can join us as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Anne Wilson, I'm Bob Lapine. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a production of Family Life of Little Rock, Arkansas, a crew ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.