When an adolescent or a young adult begins to experience significant issues with depression or with anxiety, pastor and biblical counselor David Murray says there is a long path ahead for that young person and for their family. I know nobody likes to hear this in America. It's like quick fix, instant solutions. No, this is not going to be quick. This is not going to be instant, but it's going to be good.
Every single person that I've walked through depression and anxiety with has come out the other end more resilient, deeper in their faith, more sympathetic, more caring, more sensitive, more useful in the kingdom of God. This is Family Life Today. Our hosts are David and Wilson.
I'm Bob Lapine. You'll find us online at familylifetoday.com. We'll map out for you today the path to follow if you find a son or a daughter wrestling with significant depression or anxiety. Stay with us. And welcome to Family Life Today.
Thanks for joining us. I think for a lot of moms and dads, they're hearing what we're talking about this week, and they're turning up the radio. They want to hear this. And saying, we need help, because they've seen things that have caused them to wonder. Are our kids okay? Like the child who, after dinner, goes to her room and never comes out, and if you go in and say, you doing okay? You go, yeah, I'm fine.
And that's it. And it's like there's no connection, and you feel – you start to worry. You get anxious yourself as a parent.
What's going on with my kids? Oh, I think it's one of the hardest things. When you see anxiety in your children, it's bad enough in yourself, and it's bad. But when you see it in somebody else and you can't really solve it, boy, boy, that's why this program's that important. And I think, too, at one of our local high schools, the suicide, the number of suicides in this one high school has escalated. And all the parents are talking about it, and deep down, every parent's a little worried about it.
Yeah. The issues of anxiety and depression are escalating, and we've got David Murray joining us to help us sort this out as parents and help us know what to do if our kids are experiencing this. David, welcome back to Family Life Today. Thanks, Paul.
Good to be here. David is a pastor. He's an author.
He, for years, has been a seminary professor at Puritan Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids. He and his wife have dealt personally with issues of anxiety and depression. And David has just written a book called Why Am I Feeling Like This for teenagers to help them with issues of anxiety and depression, and then a book for parents, Why Are My Teenagers Feeling Like This. Maybe we should separate anxiety and depression. They're not the same. They're different, but they're linked, right?
Yeah, that's a tricky one, isn't it? It's about 50 percent of cases of anxiety also have depression, so much so that a lot of physicians nowadays will just talk about depression and anxiety as if it's one problem. But it is important to separate them because you can be anxious without being depressed and vice versa. So you might, if you want to simplify it, say that anxiety is like when your revs are way too high and you can't get them down, and depression is when your revs are way too low and you can't get them up. And it's strange that in the one person you can have both problems. It does tend to go in a cyclical way. Often anxiety comes first, wears out the person, exhausts them, and eventually they slump into a depression.
And then that often comes with weird bodily symptoms as well that people experience, which makes them anxious, and you get into this horrible vicious circle. I remember our teens going through seasons where they were kind of emotionally flat. Like I described, they go to their room, they read, they just don't want a whole lot of social interaction. As a parent, you feel like, is there something wrong? Are they depressed?
Is there something I should be doing? How can we know as parents whether we've got a real issue or whether this is just kind of normal adolescent behavior? It is tricky because, as you say, normal teens go through times of quiet and withdrawal.
I think every teen does to some degree. I think the thing is not to leave it too long, not to just assume everything is fine. Teens don't want you jumping on them every time they go to their room for a day or two. But if that goes to three, four, especially a week and more, then I think we want to start trying to initiate a conversation. It's often best not to knock on the door, you know, what's wrong with you?
Come out. But, you know, initiate, let's go for a walk, let's go for a meal and just have a casual, relax, talk about everything and then hopefully zero in and create a context in which we can begin to talk about these issues that kids do find it very hard to talk about. So you're trying to create a time, a place, an atmosphere, especially non-judgmental, non-condemning, and if you can, even talk honestly about your own challenges and struggles as a teen. Because often teens look at their parents and think, man, they've got it all figured out, they're perfect, they never had this. So you're just trying to find ways of opening that conversation up and actually if you get that, and in most cases you will if you go about it wisely, you're like 50% of the way there because it's the hardest thing to get that conversation going.
But once you get it going, you really have, you've almost climbed the highest hill, there are still hills ahead, but this is the hardest one to go. So coach me through, if I see something in my son or daughter and I'm thinking, like Bob said, they're going to the room, whatever, I don't start with, hey, I think you're depressed. Don't do that, or that's judgment. I think you're wise enough to know that's not right.
I know, I'm just throwing it out there. So what's a better approach? How do I get them talking?
I think to have that relationship, first of all, with your kids, now is not the time to start a relationship, right? So hopefully you've built that ability to connect over the years, you've got some capital in the bank with them, as it were. So I think that's the first thing.
And then secondly, I think just try and engage in activities, something relaxing, get outside and just normalize a day out or an afternoon out or an evening out and just talk about life in general and try and gradually come closer and closer to these fears you have. And I think, you know, questions like just, you know, I hear a lot about, you know, the challenges teens are having today. I want to help if you're having any challenges yourself. Just use me as a resource.
I don't have all the answers, but I might have some that I can help you with, might be able to point to someone. And I'm not saying that every teen is just going to drop their barriers first time up, but I think if you do that as a habit, get into something regular like that, then eventually you will break through and you'll begin to deepen these conversations. We had one guest. Do you guys remember? He talked about going on a walk with his kids every evening when it was nice out. And he said it just became a routine that they'd go on a walk, not too far, but around the block or whatever and talk about their day.
I thought that was a great idea. And not always with the idea that you're going to say, I've just noticed that you're feeling this way and I'm just wondering, I'm concerned. It was, how's school today?
That's right. What's going on? As a parent, you're hoping that there'll be a breakthrough every time. When there's not a breakthrough, when you go home, you're – It's so frustrating.
It is frustrating. But you just have to trust the Lord in the midst of this? Yeah, and I think it's like evangelism.
You sow seeds and you might not see a return immediately. But you've sown seeds that in a teen's brain will be fertilized and will be watered and that may, in a very surprising moment, come to flower and fruit in a really good, deep conversation. Did you see this with your girls, David, as they were growing up?
Did you put some sort of habits or patterns in with them or rhythms? Yeah, I would say my wife has been better with my girls than I have and I have probably been better with my boys than she has. I'm not saying that's always going to be the case, but it just seems to have been the case with our family.
And like when I wrote these books, it was a good way of – I want you to tell me, have I hit the mark here or like have I totally missed it? And that's actually initiated a lot of conversations in our household since then. So I think even bringing good resources into the house, read them yourself. Kids will notice and may ask a question. They'll probably pick it up when you're not looking and begin to think about these things and realize, oh, my parents are like, they're not going to jump down my throat when I maybe talk about this.
But they're maybe getting informed about it. They'll be able to help me with it. So you're trying to create a culture, long-term culture. To go back to habits, I've found Saturday morning breakfasts just a great place to connect with my sons especially. I'm very busy through the week, but taking them out for a good West Michigan breakfast and just – it just seems a very normal, natural thing to do.
You just like get into stuff and you begin to talk about really good man-to-man stuff. Well, and especially, think about it, if there are things that you know your son or daughter generally likes to do and you can say, hey, I was thinking maybe Saturday we could go fishing because you know they love to go fishing. Even a child who might be dealing with discouragement or depression might go, well, yeah, I'd kind of like to go do go-karts or play golf or whatever it is that is their thing, go out and do that and just see if that dislodges some of this.
I think my question is, when do you start to get really concerned as a parent and go, this needs more than just evening walks and a good West Michigan breakfast? Well, if you're getting into – there is no communication, there is total withdrawal, there's isolation from friends. If you're beginning to pick up hints of, you know, they'll maybe drop lines out like it'd be better if I wasn't here, I'm just a burden to you, this world's not worth living for. I wish I'd never been born. Yeah, things like that.
I'm of no value, I'm worthless, nobody likes me. Now, one of these things on their own is maybe not such a big deal, but you're beginning to hear a pattern and you want to then take steps. And I would say, you know, maybe professional help at that point. As a parent, you're not really equipped, but you know, bring in maybe a doctor, maybe a pastor. If, though, it gets to the point where you believe your teen is on the verge of taking their life, this is, you know, blue lights flashing, this is 999, this is not something for amateurs. You need to get them to the hospital or you need to get the hospital to them. Don't risk hoping for the best. David, 999 is UK, it's here in the US, it's 9-11, okay?
Forgive me. Do we go to the doctor first? Because I'm talking to parents who will go to the doctor, you'll say, yeah, I see signs of depression, here's a prescription for this. And the parent goes, okay, well, they'll take their pills and it'll all be better. And is a Christian psychiatrist better or does it matter? You know, ideally you want a team and I've always encouraged that with people. So the parents are critical members of the team, a doctor. Hopefully your pastor is sensitive and sympathetic and I think you'd need to test that first because some are not.
A good counselor, Christian counselor, biblical counselor, maybe if it's especially complex eventually, then you would go for some professional psychology, psychiatric help. So you're trying to address this from a number of angles. You're recognizing limitations and you're recognizing the need to bring in skills from different trained and experienced people. And there's no silver bullet for this.
Because it's such a complex problem, we have to build a number of factors in and nothing ever goes smoothly. You try one doctor, you don't get much help. You try someone else, you get help.
You just got to patiently work ahead at this. That's why I really encourage pastors to have these things at their fingertips so that when families come they can say, okay, here's the doctor, here's the counselor, here's the psychologist that we need to get involved in this. So you've already got tested resources that you can bring in as part of this team. Your books, the one for teens and the one for parents, outline a number of different scenarios, case studies basically, because anxiety and depression can look very different. So for some children, it may be going to their room and withdrawing. Anxiety can look very different in terms of a hyper excitism in a child.
Kind of give us the common scenarios of how this is going to manifest itself among teenagers. So I think if you think of depression in girls, it often manifests itself by a lot of irrational crying. So that was the case with my wife. So just overwhelming sadness, which when you ask about, I don't know why. In guys, it's often irrational anger.
It's not a strict divide, but speaking very generally here, if you've got a teen guy who's like lashing out, bad tempered, and every guy says, well, that's my son, you know. No, we're talking about like nonstop, completely unfounded, irrational. In fact, if you look at a lot of the school shootings, these things were all there beforehand. So you're looking for that. And you're also looking for sleeplessness. So with both depression, anxiety, insomnia is usually an accompaniment to that.
Either not getting to sleep, waking up very early in the morning, very broken sleep. So there's a general exhaustion. Just demotivation, incapable of actually just doing your daily duties, going to school. You see grades plummeting, something like that.
They're no longer participating in sports at all. They're withdrawing from friends. And just a general sense of hopelessness and fear about the future. So you see that as a parent. I mean, that's like panic mode. You know, if I'm watching my son or daughter do that, I'm thinking the worst. Again, I'm thinking going on an evening walk, not the cure for that. Because it's like, whoa, I'm seeing anger, I'm seeing depression, I'm seeing sleeplessness. What do I do? I mean, it sounds like a really big thing is the team.
Yeah, the team. And there isn't just one thing you do. It's a series, usually a long series of steps. You have to look at this as a minimum of a six month and probably closer to one to two years, especially in the teen years. You've got a lot of hormonal issues going on as well. So the rates for anxiety and depression in girls is much higher than for boys, double just about.
So we're trying to take a realistic approach. I know nobody likes to hear this in America. It's like quick fix, instant solutions. No, this is not going to be quick.
This is not going to be instant, but it's going to be good. There's good at the end of this. Every single person that I've walked through depression, anxiety with has come out the other end more resilient, deeper in their faith, more useful in the kingdom of God, more sympathetic, more caring, more sensitive. And I'm not saying everyone I've walked with has come out the other end. I'm talking about those who have used all the means that God has provided, because some people just say, well, you know, I'm only going to take pills. Well, I'm sorry, that just won't work. Or some people just say, well, I'm just going to read my Bible.
Well, I'm sorry, that probably won't work. You need to take all of God's helps, and he's provided multiple helps, physical, emotional, mental, spiritual, relational helps, and put that all together. And at the other end, you have a better kid and you have better parents because you're humbled, you're dependent, and you've actually been brought closer to your kids in the process as well.
And you've formed a bond that will last lifelong. I know as a parent, if a teen's going through something like this, we're praying for our kids regularly. Should we be engaging with them around the Scriptures, even if they're saying, do we go in and say, can I just read this passage to you? Can I just ask you some questions?
And they say, I'm not interested. Coach us on that side of things. Yeah. Whether the problem is primarily spiritual or primarily physical or primarily a providence in their life, whatever it is, the Bible has got to be at the center of recovery. You know, it's through Bible and prayer that God comes to us, and we need God. Whether we're taking medications, whether we're getting counseling, whether we're trying to exercise more, take a weekly Sabbath, we need God's blessing and presence in all of these areas. So, we need to bring God in whatever the cause, and we need to really help teens change their worldview effectively, and that's what the Bible does. So, a teen in the midst of depression and anxiety has usually a very, very small view of the world.
In fact, it's usually these four letters, S-E-L-F, and that's all they see, self. And one of the great challenges is to get them turned inside out and just begin to look beyond themselves. Yes, to their family, yes, to their friends, yes, to the wider culture, the church, but above all, to God, and get God into their view of the world, their perspective, their sense of who they are. We talk in the book about identity issues and how we've got to get that from God. And so, as soon as we bring God in, it does shrink our problem a bit because we see how great God is, and we see how gracious He is in providing all these resources.
So, how do we practically do this is the question? Well, what we don't do is, like, read chapters a day. Depressed and anxious people, if they can get a couple of verses a day, that's a triumph often. But we've got to believe in the power of God's word that even a verse or two a day is powerful.
And over time accumulates to recreate their sense of self, their sense of the world, their sense of who God is. So, that's what I usually encourage teens to do. In the book, I do give some tips on how to start a daily Bible reading plan that does start with just a verse or two a day. Try and do it in the same place at the same time every day.
Shut off the phone. Even if it's five minutes, five minutes undistracted with God is worth gold. And make that a habit, and all these small, regular engagements and meetings with God will begin to change a person and their view of themselves and their thinking. We have a son who has ADD, and he was never on medication. We kind of chose just to do some practical things of helping him through it. But he went to college to get an engineering degree and found the stress level overwhelming in terms of trying to get through. And so, he said, I think I'm going to go on some medication to help me lock in to study. And so, he went on a medication. He would study it.
We had studied it. But it sent him into some depression, and that scared him. And so, he went off it instantly, which made it worse, and he didn't know it, and we didn't know it. He'd gone off of it instantly.
But he came home from college one semester, never left the couch. And I had never seen him like that. He was crying. I don't think I'd seen him cry in quite a while, and I was so concerned.
And I think what happened is it created a culture of talking. And he was probably a little more quiet than the other boys, but just asking him questions once in a while. And I was amazed how putting my hand on him and praying over him and praising God for who he was and what I saw in him and what God had good things for his future. I was amazed at how needy he was for that and how before maybe in high school he was like, well, whatever, Mom.
But at this point, he was kind of desperate for anything. And I think that we forget the power we have as parents of just empathizing, praying over our kids, laying our hands on them, speaking hope for them and a future over them. I think that's powerful, too, to add to it. That's beautiful, Anne. That's just a beautiful story. It's hard to go through, but yeah, I think you see there in the way you tell that how God has used it in your life and your son's life as well. I remember sometimes sitting with my wife when she was in tears and, you know, I'd be reasoning.
And she would eventually say, would you just put your arm around me, please? And yeah, it's sometimes the simple things, acceptance, understanding, not condemning, not expressing disappointment, not saying you're messing up my life, you know, this is not what we envisaged. Or you're making us look bad.
You're making us look bad. And I have to be honest, I was a pastor at the time when Shona came down with her depression. And in Scotland, there's a lot of stigma, then we're back in 2001, and we didn't tell anyone. Because we thought, you know, how will people view our ministry? The pastors, wives, the priests, what kind of pastor? What kind of minister?
What kind of a husband is she married to? Exactly. I mean, maybe people said that anyway. And looking back, it was a horrendous mistake. Not only because it stopped us getting help earlier, but it also prevented huge opportunities for ministry. And I actually wouldn't be here today in America teaching counseling and writing books about anxiety and depression if it wasn't for the fact that ultimately we went public. And the story resonated.
So, you telling that story, I'm sure listeners are just going to click with that. They've got a teen on their couch right now. And you've just given them just the simplest, doable things that can make such a difference. Well, what you're giving us is not only wisdom, but also a tool we can use if we've got a son or a daughter who is battling with anxiety or depression. The book that David has written is called Why Am I Feeling Like This?
A Teen's Guide to Freedom from Anxiety and Depression. And it's not just a book that you buy and then put on your son or daughter's bed and say, here, read this. There's also a book that David has written for us as parents, Why Is My Teenager Feeling Like This?
Because this is a path you're going to need to walk together with your son or your daughter. Get a copy of both of these books if this is a reality in your home. Go to familylifetoday.com to order either of David's books. You can order them from us online or you can call if you'd prefer.
Our number is 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, David's books are called Why Am I Feeling Like This? A Teen's Guide to Freedom from Anxiety and Depression. And then for parents, Why Is My Teenager Feeling Like This? A Guide for Helping Teens Through Anxiety and Depression.
Order both books from us online at familylifetoday.com or call to order 1-800-358-6329. That's 1-800-F as in family, L as in life, and then the word today. You know, anxiety and depression are not simply teenage issues. All of us can go through seasons where this is a reality in our lives.
And for a lot of people right now in 2020, there's a lot going on that can cause you to become anxious or depressed, especially for people who are dealing with unemployment as a result of the economic issues in 2020. Earlier this week, we talked with Dale Kreinkamp, who has written a devotional for people who are unemployed. It's called How Long, O Lord?
How Long? And we're making that devotional available today to anyone who can make a donation to support the ministry of family life today and help us extend the reach of this ministry. In fact, we want to encourage you who are still employed to think about people you know who may have lost a job and are trying to make sense of life right now. Make a donation, get them a copy of this book, and give it to them as a gift, as a way of expressing your love and your care and your concern for them. Again, your donations will go directly toward helping cover the cost of producing and syndicating this radio program so it can be heard by more people more often. We thank you for your partnership in that.
You can donate online at familylifetoday.com, or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. Ask for your copy of Dale Kreinkamp's book when you get in touch with us, and thanks for partnering with us in the outreach ministry of family life today. We appreciate you. And we hope you can join us again tomorrow.
We're going to talk more about teenage anxiety and depression and look at how the book of Psalms is a great place where we can find encouragement and help and rest and peace when we're battling with depression and anxiety. David Murray joins us again tomorrow. We hope you can join us as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Bob Lapine. We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a production of Family Life of Little Rock, Arkansas, a crew ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.
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