Turning Toward Others

Jesus said, if anyone would be my follower, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. Jenn Ochsman thinks we're not talking about death to self enough. We can die in a million ways. It can be going across the street and loving our literal neighbor. It can be going across the city.

It can be going across the ocean. It can be going across the bedroom to extend forgiveness to a spouse or to a child. It can be returning a blessing for a cursing in the workplace, in the church, wherever.

But death to self is required for disciples of Jesus. This is Family Life Today. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. I'm Bob Lapine. You can find us online at familylifetoday.com.

How would your marriage, your family, all of your relationships for that matter, how would they look different if you were committed to the idea of dying to self? We'll explore that today with Jenn Ochsman. Stay with us. And welcome to Family Life Today.

Thanks for joining us. This was many years ago. John Piper was a guest on Family Life Today, and he was telling us about how around their house he would, from time to time, become whiny.

There would be things that would— It's a man thing. Honey, aren't you glad you're—she just threw me under the bus. She threw you under the bus, too. Oh, but not you.

Sorry. I was just going to say, aren't you glad you're not married to a whiner? But I guess that didn't work. He would grumble or complain about things, and he said, my family will break out in song when I do that. And he said, there's this worship chorus we sing at our church that, it's all about you, Jesus. But they would change it to, it's all about you, Johnny, and I would sing about him.

And I thought, you could just pop out Johnny and put in Bobby or Davey or any of us, for that matter, because there are times in life where we get so fixated, so focused on self, that we become unbearable to the people around us. That's true. And in some ways, the culture celebrates it. We're supposed to do that, right? Yeah, we all have a voice now. We need to let our voice be heard.

That's what we're hearing more and more. Well, until you come across a book like Enough About Me, and then you go, maybe there's some correction needs to happen here. Jen Oshman is joining us again on Family Life Today. Welcome back.

Thanks so much. Jen is the author of that book, Enough About Me. She is a mom of four daughters living in Parker, Colorado, with her husband, who is a pastor at a local church there. Jen and her husband spent 15 years on the mission field. Tell us about how you guys got to the mission field, what you were doing there. Tell us about that whole chapter of your life.

Sure. Well, when Mark and I got married, we both had a vision and a passion for the nations. We wanted to go overseas.

It was something that we were unified in from day one. So we went with Cadence International, which is a ministry to American military members overseas, and he pastored in Okinawa, Japan. And everybody that we ministered to was American military members, but living in Japan. So it was really sweet to be part of a local American church, but on the other side of the world. And it was a community that was obviously, because they were military members, they were living for a bigger purpose and a bigger passion than sort of the average American dream or the average American life. They were a people who were excited about the gospel, excited about the mission and vision of the church. And people who needed, who were outside of the normal American life, such that they were asking bigger questions.

They were asking more about the meaning of life and what's after life. And so it was a fruitful ministry. It was a blast. I mean, they were sort of like the best years of our life.

We loved it. But we also had a burden and a desire and just a passion to see the name of Christ exalted in the Czech Republic. It's one of the most atheist nations on the planet.

Less than one half of one percent of Czech people know Jesus as their Lord and Savior. So a very spiritually dark context. And that was something that just sort of hung over us all of our years there in Japan.

And so we finally made the move and partnered with a local Czech church and went about church planting in Brno, Czech Republic. And that dream was cut short in God's providence and kindness and sovereignty. Even still, it feels a little bit painful to talk about it. We envisioned ourselves there forever and ever. But my father was languishing with Alzheimer's and dementia, and so we came back to take care of him. And that's what brought us back to Colorado, where we're from.

What was that like, Jen, coming back? Was it a culture shock? Yeah, it really was. I mean, we had lived overseas a long time. We had taken a newborn with us, and then everybody else was born in Asia.

So it was disorienting for our kids. You know, America was another foreign country for them, and it was disorienting for us. And just to confess this, a lot of our identity was wrapped up in being overseas missionaries. So if we're not on the mission field, then who are we? What value do we bring to the table in terms of the church and the kingdom and just being human beings?

So it was hard. It was some just normal, you know, growth that had to take place, culture shock that had to take place, but also some refining and pruning of the Lord, just revealing to us that we are His. We belong to Him, and it's not about what we can conjure up and produce on our own. It's about the story that He's writing that He's invited us to be a part of. The heart of your book, Enough About Me, is that we have to understand that our identity exists apart from our activity in order for our activity to make sense. And part of the challenge all of us run into is, who are we apart from our activity? The things that define us in everyday life are the things we do and the things we're known for. And yet if we don't have a solid understanding of who we are apart from those things as children of God, beloved of God, accepted by God, then all of the stuff we do, if that's what defines us, God can start to prune that, take it away, take you out of the Czech Republic, put you somewhere else and say, now who are you, right? Yes, yes, that's a good word.

And I think we're experiencing that in the middle of this coronavirus pandemic here in 2020. All of us do identify so strongly with the office that we go to in the morning, the teams that we're on, the clubs that we're a part of, the activities that we do. That's who we are.

And those have been stripped away in 2020. And that has been painful, but a blessing, also a gift of God and a gift of grace as we are reminded, no, I am not my activities, I am not what I produce. I am a child of God and I'm His vessel to do with as He pleases. I want to know what you think about this and really what everybody thinks about this, because as I've been pondering your book and thinking about this subject, I'm wondering, do men and women, do we do our sense of self differently? So if a woman is fixating on her identity and a man is fixating on his identity and thinking about it wrongly, are our sin patterns going to be different? I know we're talking, as my son likes to say, genderalities.

These are gender-based generalities. But is our self-focus a different kind of self-focus maybe? I'm thinking to the garden where Adam's passivity is matched with Eve's – Controlling. Her controlling, her susceptibility to temptation, was this an achievement? I mean, was she reaching out thinking, ooh, I would like to be like God?

And was Adam like, okay, whatever. You know, I'm just trying to – I don't know that I have an answer. Maybe our listeners will write us and tell us what the right answer is.

Well, I mean, I think we all know the heart or the center or the foundation of it is sin or selfishness. I mean, enough of me is a selfless – I'm not going to focus on me anymore. I remember it just came to my mind. I got to play in this little golf charity outing years ago. A former Detroit Lion player sent me a text – it's classic for me – that said, hey, would you like playing my golf outing such and such a day, we'd love to have you come. And my first response in the text – and he should have known this was coming – well, yeah, I'm free that day, but how much is it?

Because I'm always about how much money is this going to cost me even though it's going to a charity, right? And Drew texts back right away, he goes, oh, you'll be a celebrity, celebrities are free. And I text back, you and I both know I'm not a celebrity.

What are you talking about? He goes, well, here's how it works. A foursome pays $1,000 to play with a celebrity, and that's how we raise the money. And he said, I'm making you a celebrity because you won't come unless we do.

So long story short, I'm in, right? I get to the golf course, and I'm looking around, and there's real celebrities there. I mean, he played at Michigan State, so there's Magic Johnson.

There's the head coach, and there's Tom Izzo. All these people are – and you can see these foursomes like, they're looking like, who's going to be my celebrity? So I'm like, oh, boy, this is not going to go good when my foursome realizes it's me.

So they give you, you know, you go to this group. And so I walk up, and it was two couples. They weren't married.

Their spouses actually were working in the tournament, but they were paired together. Anyway, I walk up and go, hey, I'm Dave Wilson. What's your name? And they said their name. And then they all look at me, and they go, why'd you introduce yourself? I go, oh, I didn't tell you.

I'm your celebrity. And they go, who are you? And I go, well, I'm a friend of Drew's. I didn't want to tell him I'm the Lions chaplain, and I'm a pastor, because I thought it would freak him out.

So I just said, I'm a friend of Drew's. And they go, well, that's nice, but you must be important that you're a celebrity. You're our celebrity, as Magic Johnson walks behind me. And I go, oh, well, I'm the chaplain of the Detroit Lions. And this dude looks at me and goes, oh, great.

So that means we can't cuss, and we can't drink. That's what he said. And I go, well, it gets better. I'm not a good golfer either.

So here's what I'm telling you the story. We go out golfing, and they're great people, right? And we're on, like, the 10th hole. And all of a sudden, this wife that was in the other cart walks up to me.

We're on the putting green. And she goes, hey, John here says you're a marriage expert. I go, what? He says, you're writing a book on marriage, and you and your wife speak around the country on marriage, so you're a marriage expert. I go, I'm no marriage expert. She goes like this, well, I've got a marriage question. I go, yeah, what's that? She goes, I'm in my second marriage.

What's the problem with marriage? Here we are on a putting green. She's looking at me like I have this answer, and I've got a minute. I've got 20 seconds. And I'm looking at her like, oh, boy. And she meant it. And so I'll never forget it. It just came to my mind. I go, oh, that's easy.

I can answer that with one word. She goes, really? What's that? This is classic.

I'll never forget this. I go, that word would be selfishness. And she goes, you are so right. My first husband was so selfish. That's what she said.

I mean, it was like you couldn't have written this, right? And I just look at her. I go, I'm not talking about your first husband. And I went like this. I said, I'm talking about you, and I'm talking about me. And she said to me, oh. And then later she said, I've never heard a pastor say he was selfish. You said you were selfish.

I go, that's the problem. And so, I mean, even the answer is a woman or a man different. Yeah, we're different, I think, in the way it plays out. But at the heart of it, we think about me because we're selfish. We're sinners.

Of course we're going to focus on that. And then if we look into me to find the answer for me, we're never going to find it. That's why your book's so true.

It's like we have to go vertical and say, what does he say? This is why you and your book say ultimately the solution to this me fixation that we have is a gospel realignment. Right. An understanding of the gospel that goes deeper than most of the superficial understandings of the gospel that we're experiencing in contemporary American Christianity.

Right, right. And what I'm seeing across the church in the United States, and let me be clear, I love the church. I have been a missionary for two decades in women's ministry. I'm a pastor's wife. We planted a church.

I love the bride of Christ, and I don't mean to knock her. But I do mean to critique her, and that is that we have been very self-focused in our churches as well. And we've sort of come up with this consumer-centric faith. How can we fill the pews?

How can we build a bigger building? How can we pay the pastor's salary? And so we're being, you know, we're hearing sermons, we're hearing lessons, we're in Bible studies, we're in groups, we're in fellowships that are driving this consumer train, that are building this sort of institution of the church rather than the fellowship and the body and the family that I think Jesus intended in the first century. And so my desire is that we as a church and we as individuals would take our eyes off ourselves, stop seeking to build our institutions, stop seeking to build our own little kingdom. And we would do what Jesus said, which is take up your cross and follow me. Whoever would follow Jesus would then come and die.

That is all over the Word of God, and we don't talk about it very often. But that is, the subtitle to my book is Find Lasting Joy in the Age of Self. And that counterintuitively, counter to our flesh, counter to our culture, that is where joy is found is when we die to ourselves. So what's that look like?

Because you say very specifically in the book, lasting joy is found in picking up your cross. Explain that. What's that mean? And you know what?

It's like, it's so counter flesh. Like when even hearing you say that, I mean, I've been soaking in this message for years. Even hearing you say that, a little bit of my heart is like, wait, is that really true?

Now I'm on national radio. Is this really true? Because it doesn't sound good. It doesn't feel good. And it's not the narrative that we're hearing in pop culture and movies and TV, on Instagram and newspapers. I mean, the narrative that we're hearing is it is all about you.

You make it happen. This, you are a unique individual and you can curate the best life for you now, you know? So it's really counter to ourselves. So even hearing that makes me cringe a little bit, but it's true. The scriptures are full of commands and admonishments and invitations and encouragements to die to ourselves.

And it can be a spectrum. You know, we can't be putting pastors and missionaries on some sort of pedestal and saying, well, they're really dying to themselves. You know, that's not true. In Acts 17, the Lord is clear that He has put us in the times and places that we are for a reason. And it is so that we would seek Him and find Him.

So I'm in America right now for a reason and so are you and everybody listening wherever they are all over the world. It's not a mistake that the Lord would have each of the listeners where they are in 2020 in this moment. And it's so that we would seek God and find Him.

And we can die in a million ways. It can be going across the street and loving our literal neighbor. It can be going across the city.

It can be going across the ocean. It can be going across the bedroom to extend forgiveness to a spouse or to a child. It can be returning. I learned this at Weekend to Remember two decades ago.

It can be returning a blessing for a cursing in the workplace, in the church, wherever. But death to self is required for disciples of Jesus. And it's not popular and it's something we drift away from all day, every day.

But it's in there. That's where we find lasting joy. When I wrote my book Love Like You Mean It, one of the discoveries for me, one of the things that I had to really wrap my head around is that sacrificial self-giving love is the key to the kind of fulfilling joy-filled relationship that God designed for us.

And that's the counterintuitive paradoxical nature of the Gospel, that the first are last, the last are first, that everything's upside down. If you want to be great, be a servant. If you sacrifice yourself and die to self, you will find life and joy and fulfillment. We just don't think, no, sacrifice to self is where you find despair.

It's where you find it's drudgery. Who wants to sacrifice? And God says, do this and watch joy explode in your life. And even as I'm saying that, I'm thinking, is that for real, right? Do I want to do that today? Because the flesh wants what it wants. And yet the Gospel says this is a whole different economy that God has created.

His ways are not our ways, and to follow His ways are going to be the source of the kind of fulfilling joy we're looking for. Several years ago, I met a young woman, and I heard that she had tried to take her life several times. She was 19 years old. And I said to her, if you ever want to talk, I would be so happy to sit down and just talk to you. And I was shocked that the next day she called me and asked if she could come over. So she came over, and she was telling me about how she had tried to take her life several times.

She really has struggled with depression, and the suicide has been on her mind constantly. She was a D1 soccer player who was injured, and her career was now on hold. And that had been her life. And so I asked her, tell me who you are. And she said, I only know who I used to be.

I used to be a soccer player, and my life used to have meaning. And I said, that's what you do. Who are you? And she said, I have no idea. And so I explained the gospel to her, and I said, what Jesus wants is your life.

All of you, everything, to lay it down because He's the one that created you, and He's the one that knows you. And she said, I can't give all of that. I can't surrender that. I can't die to myself because it sounds so wrong, and yet she was trying to die herself. The next day, she called me again and said, can I talk again? And I said, yep. And so she kind of went through the thing she was struggling with about God. And then she goes, okay, I can't like to give myself to God sounds like the scariest thing in the world.

And I said, it is. It is because you really don't know what He has in store, but He's the one that made you. And so to discover who He is, is discover who you are. The next day, she calls me.

She goes, I did it. I just want you to know I did it. It's so interesting because in your book, you talk about how suicide is on the rise more than ever. Right, right, it is.

And even amongst young girls, ages 10 to 14, and also amongst grown women as well. And I think it's because we are looking within. We don't know who we are because we don't know who made us and how He made us and for what purpose. And we're living for this temporary life that is fragile and broken. And we know that. And the things that we live for, our careers, for the soccer player, her body gave out on her. Careers will give out.

Retirement accounts will give out. We cannot be dependent. We cannot identify with the things that we do. We must lose ourselves and identify with Christ, right? We are dead and raised to life with Christ. And that's where joy is found.

It's one of the scariest things, though. I mean, we were having dinner last week with a couple, and this husband was saying he has a big decision to make. And he was getting some counsel from a friend. You know, he's going through the pros and cons of, should I stay here, should I do this? And his friend said, do you know what you signed up for when you gave your life to Christ?

And Craig's like, I think so. He goes, here's what you signed up for. And he slips a piece of paper over that's blank. And he said, you signed on the bottom to a blank sheet. That's good.

That's all you need to know. God's in control of what's on that paper, and you don't know. But you know who is, and that's losing your life to an unknown future. Are you willing to sacrifice that?

And Craig's like, yep, I'm in. And that's what we did, but it's scary. It's initially scary, but it's sustaining. You know, that moment where you go, okay, I surrender.

I belong to you, blank sheet of paper, whatever you want to do. That is scary. But it's sustaining because we know who he is, and he's the God who raised from the dead. He conquered sin and death, and he's coming again. Preach it. And we will reign with him forever, you know, when it's the new heaven and the new earth. So our future is certain, and this is the sustainable way to live.

In a culture and in a place and a time where things are broken and fallen and disappoint and hurt and betray, our God reigns, and he will help us. Talk about your daughters. Okay. Like, how do you talk to them? What are you saying to them?

Tell us about them, of what you would say as you're teaching them, this is who you are. Well, I have four daughters. So the ones that are at home are 13, 15, and 17. So three girls at home who are teenagers and one who is 23. We adopted her from Thailand when she was 12. So now she lives in North Carolina with her husband who's in the army, and they actually have a granddaughter. So I am actually a grandmother. So lots of girls in our life, and my husband loves to say the joke that he's in full-time women's ministry.

But she is, and so am I. But it is a joy. Raising these daughters has been a joy, but also scary.

You know, just such a thrilling and terrifying responsibility before the Lord. But we tell them all the time. I mean, we actually wrote it out, the Ochman Family Manifesto.

My husband wrote it out years ago, and we go back to it all the time. And basically, our mission statement, our vision statement as parents is we would just love for our children if God would allow that our children would know Him and love Him more than anything else or anyone else in the whole world. And whatever He's called them to or gifted them to or asked them to do, it doesn't matter so much. You know, they can go work at the neighborhood restaurant. They can be stay-at-home moms. They can be the CEO of a bank. They can be missionaries.

They can be doctors. That's not really it for us. What is it for us is that they would know their Maker, and they would cherish their Savior. And I think whatever life brings them then, whatever sickness, whatever, you know, failure, whatever sin that they actually might fall into or commit themselves, whatever shame comes upon them, all of those things are small compared to their great God who loves them infinitely, without condition, beyond comprehension. So my desire is that they would know Him and love Him and walk with Him. And so we're always trying to put that before them and just have a culture and an ethos of grace in our home. And as you coach other parents, is that what you would say?

Yes. I mean, I praise the Lord. Neither my husband or I were raised in Christian homes, but my husband had an amazing mentor, his pastor, Kita, when he was a young adult who really understood grace.

And he just showered my husband in grace all the time. And so my husband had this tremendous foundation of grace, just understanding the gospel, that I am not the sum total of my work. I'm not the sum of my sins. I'm not the sum of what I can produce. I am in Christ. And what does that look like practically at home when you talk to your daughters, when you say your home is full of grace?

Give us an example of what that could look like. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't look like we're like this loosey-goosey family that has no boundaries by any means. My kids would definitely tell you otherwise.

You know, for example, now, I'm not a parenting expert, so you might want to edit this out later. Oh, Bob is, so go ahead. Okay, good.

So just correct all of it, Bob, if needed. But with three teenage girls, of course, what's a major question in our home all the time is like dating. Can I date? And we have not ever had dating rules. We have not said, you've got to be this age or you've got to be this, you know, we've never made a rule. We've just always said, let's see who you are and let's see who he is and we'll talk about it.

And that has been just sort of rather than being maybe legalistic or having like certain things to live by, it's been more like, let's discuss it. What is God doing in your life? What's God doing in this boy's life? What's God going to do through both of you? And let's talk it through. So rather than really rules heavy, we try to be really just discussion heavy, all relationship. What is God doing? Your relationship with the Lord, your relationship with us. Now, there are consequences when people do dumb things. That happens.

But we do just try to keep bringing it back to create. Your identity is not in this sin. Your identity is not in this boyfriend or this grade or what college you get into. Your identity is the resurrected savior. And I think what you're hitting at is so critical because, well, if it isn't just about me and I've got to go vertical to find out who I am and it won't be about me anymore, it's about him.

I've really got to know him. And so it sort of motivates you to say, man, if the word of God is the way I know him, what am I doing with my time to say, I've got to get in that. The day I came to Christ in college, my mentor said, a man of God is a man of this book. And I just looked at him like, I have no idea what's in that book. I've laughed at that book my whole life. I've got to know that book. And I want to say to the husbands and dads listening right now, you've got to become a man of this book.

The women out there, you've got to become a woman of this book. You will discover in a beautiful way who he is and then who you are, and it won't be about you anymore. And you will discover he is truly enough.

And you'll know him well enough to be able to be confident in that. What if there were book clubs of women, guys, mothers, daughters, fathers, sons who were absorbing this message, enough about me. Let's talk about God. Let's talk about his agenda. Let's talk about his purposes.

Let's refocus what's at the center of our lives. We've all seen that classic illustration that says who's on the throne, right? You on the throne, God on the throne. And that's something that we're dealing with every day of our lives. Who's on the throne at this moment?

Who's on the throne in this event, in this circumstance? Whose priorities do I care most about? Your book, Enough About Me, is pointing us away from that self-fixated orientation. We're so glad you came and talked with us about this. I think our listeners have gotten the needed wheel alignment from this conversation. Thank you.

Awesome, praise God. Thank you. And I would encourage listeners to get a copy of your book, Enough About Me, Finding Lasting Joy in the Age of Self. Go through this with a friend. If you're able to do some kind of small group or book club right now, have everybody go through this book together. Maybe read through parts of it together as a family.

This issue is critical to our spiritual growth. Again, the title of the book is Enough About Me, Finding Lasting Joy in the Age of Self by Jen Oshman. You can order the book from us online at familylifetoday.com or call to order at 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the website is familylifetoday.com, or you can call 1-800-358-6329. That's 1-800-F as in Family, L as in Life, and then the word TODAY to get a copy of Jen's book.

Now, we have recently updated and upgraded the Family Life Today app, which is available in your app store. David Robbins, who's the president of Family Life, is here to talk about it. We're pretty excited about this, David. Yeah, Bob, I've got something I've been wanting to talk about for a while because one of the things we've always been committed to at Family Life is connecting with families, knowing their needs, being able to pray for people in their hurts and in their joys. And in July, my inbox was flooded with over 2,300 prayer requests after an email I sent out asking, how can we pray for you? And it was a privilege for Meg and myself and our team to pray for you and your families. And it motivated me, and it motivated our teams at Family Life to continue to trust God and do more to help families. And we want to be available 24-7, and that's why we have launched this new app. We got to work, and we are very excited to bring you new content, great content like Family Life Today and so many other resources that are available to you at the click of a button. As a listener named Greg recently emailed me and said, we've been starting to tune in to the app to catch up on the shows we've missed on the radio. It helped give us hope.

It's like drinking a cup of cool water on a warm day, so refreshing. Go to your app store, search for the Family Life app, and download it from there. We look forward to continuing the journey with you and the ways you're growing. Yeah, thank you, David. Now, tomorrow, we want to talk about the challenges black parents are facing trying to raise black children in our current cultural moment. Jasmine Holmes is going to join us to talk about a book she's written called Mother to Son, where she's grappling with some of these issues, and we'll talk with her about it tomorrow.

Hope you can tune in for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Bob Lapine. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a production of Family Life of Little Rock, Arkansas. A crew ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.