When the Church Gets Excommunication Wrong

Does the church have the right to excommunicate someone for any reason or for reasons that are kept secret from the congregation? That's just one of the questions we'll be answering on today's edition of CORE Christianity.

And you can email us with your question at questionsatcorechristianity.com. First up today, if you hate taking out the trash, have we got an invention for you. Last week, new land speed world records were set for some unusual vehicles, and one of them was a motorized trash can. The straight liners land speed record event at the Elvington airfield near York, England, saw a variety of vehicles take to the runway in an attempt to set new land speed records. Andy Jennings, a design engineer, showed up with one of the more unusual vehicles at the event, a motorized wheelie bin trash can. Andy reached speeds of 43 miles an hour in his unusual vehicle.

Now he wasn't the only record setter though, Adriel. Jason Liversidge also set a world record at the event by taking his custom built electric wheelchair to 67 miles per hour, breaking the previous record of 62 miles. Can you imagine that? I feel like if you're in a wheelchair, you don't need to be going 67 miles per hour. I mean, that just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. You better have good brakes on that baby. That's scary.

Well, I'm sure you can find some video of that online if you look for it. And I'm considering getting one of those motorized trash cans because that would be, you know, my wife says, honey, take out the trash. It's gone. All right, let's get to our first question of the day. Rodney posted this on our website. He says, what does Deuteronomy 29 29 mean when it says the secret things belong to the Lord, our God?

Hey Rodney, thanks for that question. Let me read the whole verse Deuteronomy 29 29. The secret things belong to the Lord, our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever that we may do all the words of this law. So you have this distinction here between that which is secret, the secret things which belong to God.

Don't concern yourself with that. And then that which is revealed, that which God has given to us. So what is being referred to here with regard to the secret things that belong to the Lord? Well, I think it's talking about God's decree, God's eternal decree, what God has destined from before time began, if you will. And we're being told here, look, that's in God's hands. I don't know what God has decreed from all eternity. And it's actually not helpful for us to try to figure that out. A lot of times when people think about doctrines like the doctrine of predestination, for example, this is where they get really, really confused and they start trying to sort of peer into God's eternal decree to figure out what God has destined from all time.

Well, here's where we need to focus our attention. Not in trying to ascend to God's decree, if you will, to figure that out. We need to rest in what God has revealed to us. And he said that all those who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved. And so we turn to Jesus by faith. And what God has revealed to us in his word, in particular, in his law, helps us to know what God wills for each of us. And so I think that there's a sense here, Rodney, in which we're being told, look, rest in what God has said in his word, what God has revealed.

Don't try to figure out the future, you know, what God has destined from all time. Look, that's in the Lord's hands. What you can rest in and know is what God has revealed through his word, in his law, and ultimately in his son, Jesus Christ. That's where we go. Want to know God?

Look to Jesus and draw near to Jesus. And so that's, I think, one of the things that's being referred to. And by the way, this is the verse that's often gone to when people talk about the distinction between God's decreative will and God's preceptive will. I mean, I kind of already explained it, but, you know, God's decreative will is what God has decreed from all time.

Paul talks about this in Ephesians 1, for example, God's eternal decree whereby he works together all things according to his own purposes, the counsel of his will. But then you also have God's revealed will. We don't know God's decree per se, but we know what God has revealed. And that's what we're being told here in Deuteronomy 29. We know what he's revealed to us, to our children. That belongs to us so that we might know his will and do all the words of this law. That's what Moses said there.

And so that's the distinction that's being drawn, the distinction between what God has revealed for his people and that which belongs to God, the secret things, his decree. Thanks for your question. You're listening to Core Christianity with Pastor Adriel Sanchez. If you have a question for us, we'd love to hear from you. Here's the phone number.

It's 833-843-2673. All right, here's another question that came in, Adriel. This one from Thomas in Belfast, Northern Ireland. He says, How do we harmonize John 19-14 when Jesus stood before Pilate at the sixth hour and the timing of Christ's crucifixion commencing at the third hour in the synoptic gospels? Yeah, really important question. And one of those verses that I think for some people is the stumbling block because they see that and they say, Oh, look, here's a contradiction. And of course, there are places where people will go in the gospels, in particular, where critics of the Bible will go. And they'll say, Look, this can't be inspired by God because there's a contradiction here. And if this was God's word, we wouldn't see any contradiction here. Well, a couple of things you have to keep in mind, at least with regard to this verse, Thomas, there is no contradiction. And there are different ways in which Bible scholars have sort of parsed this out. There are some people that will say, Well, John and the synoptic gospel writers, you know, like, like Mark, for example, they're using two different methods of telling time, some will say that John is using the Roman method and the synoptics like Mark are using more of a Hebrew method.

That's one way in which people sort of unravel this supposed contradiction. But I think a much simpler way is just to recognize that these hours that are being referred to, you know, the third hour, the sixth hour, it's not like you think about the fact that they didn't have watches back then, like we do today. So they had this sort of general sense of the time of the day based on the sun and whatnot. And even in John chapter 19, verse 14, the verse that you're referring to, it says, Now it was the day of preparation of the Passover, it was about the sixth hour. And what you find is with these different hours, there's a little bit of overlap.

I mean, probably what you're thinking about is a chunk of time that lasted probably a few hours. And so between those two times, the time that you have described in John's gospel, and then the time that you have described in Mark, for example, there's a little bit of overlap. So there doesn't have to be any contradiction here, they're probably referring to about the same time, they're just thinking about it a little bit differently. And so another thing that you have to keep in mind when you're reading the Gospels, is we're getting different perspectives here. Now, that doesn't mean that they're contradicting each other, it's just, you know, John says, Oh, it was about the sixth hour.

And Mark can say, Oh, it was about the third hour. I mean, basically, this is just from their perspective, the time that these things took place. And one of the things actually that I think this does is it supports the historicity of the Gospels. These guys didn't get together and say, Well, let's, you know, get our stories 100% in line so that people won't think we're lying. No, they're just sharing their own eyewitness accounts, or the eyewitness accounts that they had heard about. And so it's really important for us to understand that these are historical documents, these people were with Jesus or around those who were with Jesus, and they're relaying the information that they received to us. I think it actually supports the fact that, man, these are real people inspired by the Holy Spirit who are recounting for us the acts of our Lord Jesus for our benefit. And so there really is, Thomas, no contradiction here at all. As I already said, the best way to sort of unpack this is just to say, look, these these hours, the third hour, the sixth hour, and they're referring to blocks of time, and there would be some overlap.

So there's no contradiction. You're listening to Core Christianity with Pastor Adriel Sanchez. If you have a question for us, we'd love to hear from you. Here's the phone number. It's 833-THE-CORE.

That's 1-833-843-2673. My question is, if a church practices excommunication of a member, should the members know why a person is being ex-speaking from this church? Okay, yeah, this is a really important question. If a church is practicing excommunication, is it a problem if the other members of the church are not allowed to know why the person being excommunicated is being excommunicated?

Well, there really can be a problem here. I mean, I can think in my mind of some instances where maybe it's best to not share all the details, and I think that that could be prudent. But if someone is being excommunicated and the leadership of the church are saying, well, we're casting this person out, we're excommunicating them, we're cutting them off from the fellowship, but it's sort of done behind closed doors and no one is allowed to know anything, that could be, in some circumstances, abuse, ecclesiastical abuse.

And so every situation is going to be a little bit different. And because a lot of churches don't even practice church discipline and excommunication, I just want to explain what it is that we're talking about so that if you're not familiar with this process, you'll be informed. Jesus, in Matthew chapter 18, talked about the process of dealing with sin in the church. He said in verse 15 and following, If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.

But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. In other words, Jesus is saying there, treat them as a non-believer. Verse 18, truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again, I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.

For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them. And so Jesus gave his disciples a very clear process for how to deal with sin in the church. If somebody sins against you, you go to that individual and maybe they recognize that they've sinned. They apologize. There's reconciliation. Well, great. Now, if they're persisting in sin and you've confronted them and they're unwilling to repent or unwilling to say, yeah, I'm sinning.

I need help. Well, maybe take two or three others with you to confront this person. And if they still are unwilling to repent, Jesus says, tell it to the church. Now, there are different interpretations as to what that means. Is Jesus referring there to the whole church? Is he saying, look, just talk to everybody in the congregation or make a big announcement? Or is he referring to the leadership of the church?

The church is represented by the elders of the church in particular. Take it to that governing body, the ruling elders of the church so that they can address this. And if they're still not willing, well, then you continue in the process of church discipline.

You treat them as a nonbeliever. You cut them off from communion. That's what excommunication is, is it's saying you're cut off essentially from the body of Jesus Christ or you're living in ways unrepentant, which jeopardize your eternal soul.

You're showing by your actions that you don't have communion with Christ. And so they're removed from the table of the Lord. It really is a severe censure in the church, and it has these eternal consequences.

I mean, we often don't think about this, but again, verse 18, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven. Jesus has a high view of the church and of the ministry that he gave to the church. The church, through the word of God, binds and loses through Christ. The keys of the kingdom of God are given to the officers of the church.

And so I think that this is really, really important. But to your question, there are instances, I think, where maybe when a person is being excommunicated, it's not the wisest to share everything as to why they're being excommunicated, but I think the church does need to know some things. And I've seen this as well, where a church might try to practice excommunication, but they do it all kind of behind closed doors and nobody knows what's going on.

And the problem with that is really the goal of excommunication is restoration. And Paul, for example, in 1 Corinthians, he talks about when a brother has been cut off, delivered over to Satan, don't even eat with such a woman. The church should know this so that the church could do its job by saying, look, we're not just going to treat your sin lightly.

And Paul makes that very clear. If there's a so-called brother who's a fornicator, a drunkard, an idolater, someone who's been excommunicated, don't pretend like everything is fine. Don't just go and have a good time and eat and drink and it's OK, you know, whatever the person is just kind of off doing their thing for a little bit of time. No, we have to take this really, really seriously. And so I think it is important for the church to know at least some of what's happening. But as I said, it's not always prudent for the elders of the church or the leadership of the church to share all the details. And so there has to be wisdom here. And I don't know what the particular situation is that you're referring to.

I wish I had you on the line right now so that at least we could get a little bit more clarity. There are instances where church leadership can be abusive and sort of do things behind closed doors, and they don't want accountability, broader accountability. And so they don't let anybody know kind of what's happening. I think that's a danger. But then there are also instances where maybe the way in which church leadership is being abusive is by sharing too much and shaming an individual.

So we have to use wisdom. Ultimately, we want to be guided by the Scriptures, what Jesus says there in Matthew 18, the other passages related to excommunication that you see in places like 1 Corinthians. But I would encourage you, if you have questions, if you feel like maybe there's something off about the situation in your church, if there's a discipline case that's happening, I would say talk to the leadership there. Sit down with the pastor and with the elders and express your concerns with humility and say, look, this doesn't seem right.

It seems like maybe this is being brushed under the rug or like there is an accountability here. And try to get some more understanding. And maybe that will give you some clarity.

Thank you so much for your call. You know, Adriel, from a historical context, we know that in the early church, for the most part, people were meeting in house churches, in small groups of individuals. Nowadays we have churches that are, you know, a thousand, five thousand, ten thousand individuals. It's a very different story for a pastor to get up in front of ten thousand people to excommunicate someone that the vast majority of the congregation doesn't even know. Yeah, well, you know, that raises all sorts of other questions, doesn't it, Bill?

Like, how do you even practice discipline in a church of ten thousand people? It's hard, you know, because the question is, do your elders know you? That's a really important question.

That's a question each of you should ask yourselves. Do my elders know me? Do I have a relationship with my pastor where I can honestly say this person watches over my soul? Or I could reach out to this person and say, hey, I need some guidance.

I need some wisdom. And I think ordinarily that's the way in which the church is meant to operate. Now, I'm not saying, you know, you can't have these really large churches in it.

I mean, it just is amazing. It seems like God really blesses some pastors and some ministries, and they just explode. And they're preaching the gospel faithfully. They're preaching God's word faithfully. One of the challenges that those churches face is how do we make sure that we're still caring for the people of our church well, that we're still practicing church discipline?

And by the way, that phrase, sometimes, you know, it gets a bad rap. It just sounds so negative, church discipline, and we think immediately of excommunication. But really, all of us are always participating in the discipline of the church in so far as we're encouraging each other day by day while it is called today, like the author of the Hebrew says in Hebrews three, lest we're hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. When you encourage a brother or sister in the Lord to be steadfast, to walk with Jesus, when you're building each other up in the faith, that's a part of the quote unquote discipline of the church.

It's a positive element. Only when we're continuing in sin does it take this turn of, okay, we need to address this, and it could lead to excommunication down the line if a person is unwilling to repent. But you're right, Bill. I mean, especially in a church of 10,000 people, let's say, it probably wouldn't be very appropriate to stand up on a Sunday morning for the pastor to say, hey, and you know, Billy Bob, he did X, Y, and Z. And so people have no idea who that guy is.

And so it just wouldn't work. But like I said, that's where larger churches really need to think about and strategize as to how they're going to shepherd the people in their church. Now, I'm not a megachurch pastor, so we haven't come up against that. And so I'm grateful that, you know, as a pastor, I know the people in my congregation. And I think that's what shepherds are called to do. They're called to know the sheep, to care for the sheep, and to exercise discipline when it's necessary.

Good word. This is Core Christianity with Pastor Adriel Sanchez. And along the lines of the purpose and the functions of the church, we actually have a great resource on that topic we want to tell you about.

Yeah, I am excited to share this one with you. It's called Eight Things Everyone Should Know About the Church, and it's free when you sign up for our weekly newsletter. At Core Christianity, we love the church.

I'm sure you could tell that by listening to the program. And I want to encourage everyone to worship and to serve in a healthy church. Well, what's a healthy church? A healthy church is where the Word of God is faithfully taught, and worship is conducted according to the way in which Jesus commanded us to worship Him in spirit and in truth. And so I want you to check out this resource. It's going to help you understand what the church is and how to best honor God through your participation in your own local church.

Head over to corechristianity.com forward slash offers to download Eight Things Everyone Should Know About the Church. You can also call us for that resource or any one of our resources. Here's the number. It's 833-843-2673.

That's 833 the core. All right, Adriel, let's get to an interesting question that came in from Joe. He says, Romans 14 admonishes us not to cause our weaker brother to stumble in matters of food. Yet during Lent, should I eat fish when I eat with my Roman Catholic friends on Fridays or on Ash Wednesday?

Should I follow my conscience that tells me I can eat whatever the Lord provides no matter what time of year? Yeah, thank you for that question. And it is an important one, you know, how we behave ourselves. And are we behaving ourselves in a way that's causing brothers or sisters in the Lord to stumble? And there are all sorts of sort of gray area issues that could be stumbling blocks for some people. You think of, you know, maybe an individual's background. Maybe they came to Jesus after a long struggle with alcoholism.

And so, you know, if I were to have a glass of wine at dinner around them, that would be a stumbling block to them. Or, you know, in the context there in Romans 14 and in other places like 1 Corinthians, the big issue was meat that was sacrificed to idols. And, you know, Paul says very clearly, an idol is nothing. You know, they're not real. They don't even exist.

We believe in the one true God. But some people who have a little bit more sensitive consciences, right, they're having a hard time eating food that initially was potentially offered up to an idol. And for conscience sake, then, don't even mess with that. You want to care for your brother or sister. That has to be the priority. And so our, quote unquote, Christian liberties should never lead us to act in a way that causes brothers or sisters to stumble.

That would not be loving. And so with your question, you know, do I eat with my Roman Catholic friends on Fridays or Ash Wednesday? Or should I follow my conscience that tells me I can eat all of what the Lord provides? I mean, Jesus made it very clear.

It's not what goes into the body that defiles it, not what goes into your stomach that defiles you, but what comes out. Now, if you want to be sensitive to them and say, yeah, sure, I'll be on the diet that you're on or whatnot during this time for your sake, that's up to you. I mean, I think one thing you don't want to do is you don't want to be a punk about it, to use the technical theological term.

You know, you don't need to go and say, well, I have all this liberty. Here's what I'm going to do and just sort of rub it in their face. You know, I think you still want to be charitable.

The decision is up to you. Another big distinction that I think it's really important for us to understand when sort of having this discussion about causing a brother or sister to stumble is the distinction between giving offense and taking offense. This is really, really important. There are times where we actually, by our actions, give offense, and that's what Paul is saying we mustn't do. Don't actually give offense to anyone by your actions, causing a brother or sister to stumble. In those situations, you should repent and make sure that you're being charitable, loving, and not doing things that are harming another person's faith in Jesus Christ. So that's giving offense. But there's also instances where people just take offense, where it has nothing to do with, you know, causing them to stumble because of a weak conscience.

They just want to control you. You think about how the Pharisees were with Jesus. They took offense at Jesus. They said he's a glutton and a wine bibber, and they gave him all these problems, and Jesus didn't bow down to their requests. He knew that they were hypocrites.

They were taking offense at Jesus because of his actions, eating with sinners, but Jesus wasn't ever actually giving offense. And so those two distinctions, I think, are really, really important. But the guiding principle here, brother, just has to be love.

Joe, ask yourself this question. Am I loving my Roman Catholic friends by how I'm interacting with them? And sometimes love means just sharing the truth. And maybe the truth in that context is, look, it's not what goes into your mouth that defiles you, but what comes out. And that's something we all suffer from, corrupt hearts. That's why we need Jesus. That's why we need the forgiveness of our sins. That's why we need the real cleansing, which comes not by what we eat or what we drink, but by faith in Jesus.

And so encourage them with that news. God bless you. Thanks for listening to Core Christianity. To request your copy of today's special offer, visit us at CoreChristianity.com and click on offers in the menu bar or call us at 1-833-843-2673.

That's 833-THE-CORE. When you contact us, please let us know how you've been encouraged by this podcast. And be sure to join us next time as we explore the truth of God's Word together. We'll be right back.