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Carolina Journal Radio No. 920: Teachers union fights efforts to reopen schools

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai
The Truth Network Radio
January 4, 2021 8:00 am

Carolina Journal Radio No. 920: Teachers union fights efforts to reopen schools

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai

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January 4, 2021 8:00 am

The N.C. Association of Educators teachers union has been vocal about keeping brick-and-mortar schools closed to students during the COVID-19 pandemic. That’s despite the evidence of major learning loss. The union stance also ignores scientific arguments in favor of returning students to classrooms. Terry Stoops, John Locke Foundation vice president for research and director of education studies, explores NCAE’s opposition to restoring classroom instruction. The N.C. General Assembly is likely to debate law enforcement reforms as the year moves forward. State lawmakers might want to consult Colorado for clues about avoiding bad reform proposals. John Cooke, assistant Republican leader in the Colorado state Senate and husband of John Locke Foundation CEO Amy Cooke, discusses his western state’s recent experience with law enforcement reform legislation. JLF marks a new milestone in the new year. The 30-year-old foundation and the 15-year-old Civitas Institute are joining forces. They are merging capabilities of the state’s top free-market groups. Amy Cooke and Civitas President and CEO Donald Bryson explain why they decided to work together in one single group. Today’s political scene is plagued by too many episodes of grandstanding. Brandon Warmke, assistant philosophy professor at Bowling Green State University, details the problem in a recent book. He shared themes from his work during a recent online presentation for the John Locke Foundation. Gov. Roy Cooper has used emergency powers repeatedly during the COVID-19 pandemic. Jon Guze, John Locke Foundation director of legal studies, believes Cooper has exceeded his constitutional authority in using emergency powers. Guze is urging policymakers to rein in Cooper’s actions by amending the state Emergency Management Act.

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From Cherokee to current tax and the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most of public policy events and issues welcome the Carolina Journal radio I Pacheco guy during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our state. North Carolina lawmakers are likely to deal with issues linked to criminal justice and law enforcement reform in the new year, they might be wise to learn some lessons from one Western state you learn why the John Locke foundation and civil toss Institute are joining forces in the new year you hear what that means for the push toward free markets and limited government in North Carolina.

One of the problems with today's political discourse involves grandstanding will check with one expert who explains the topic and tries to deal with it.

It will hear from a legal analyst who thinks state policymakers should rein in the governor's emergency powers. Those topics are just ahead.

First, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal headline sexism, racism, misogyny that is how the Chicago teachers Union describe the effort to reopen schools during the Cova 19 pandemic is just one example of the pushback from teacher unions to in person instruction for kids. So why is this the case of Dr. Terry stoops, who is vice president of research. Also, the director of education studies here at the John Locke foundation took a look at that very issue in a piece he wrote for Carolina Journal.com Terry welcome back to the show.

Thank you, sexism, racism, misogyny, what it does have to do with Cova 19 really nothing and this is really the essence of the issue is that teacher unions and in this case Chicago teachers Union really don't want to talk about the knee issues at play with school closures with the effect of remote learning on students, especially disadvantaged students with the fact that we have an international scientific communities that says the school should be open and yet they are resisting the opening of schools in Chicago so much as to try to get the courts involved in two pushback on plans to reopen schools in Chicago in January and so were seeing a pattern by teacher unions resisting school reopening Chicago teachers Union just tends to be the most extreme in the most friends of the unions that are involved in this effort to keep school buildings close, but there are teacher unions and teacher associations and other states in other communities that are working just as hard to keep school buildings closed and to keep students remote learning environments.

As long as possible and in fact in your PC Carolina Journal.com you noted that the Chicago teachers Union description actually got a lot of pushback. Thankfully, people said, hey, wait a second. What is this have to do with it but they persist in their general message that they don't want kids going back into school. Presumably Terry because they're a a workers rights group and it's all about the teachers not the kids. Yeah that's right because there are a few things that we know there are a few things that the research tells us are true. The first is that the longer you stay in remote learning. Worse it is for kids especially disadvantaged kids. The disadvantage kids don't have the support at home that would allow them to thrive in online learning that they are forced into they have unsatisfactory Internet connections. They don't have technology that allows them to necessarily do as much as their more advantaged peers. But more importantly, the scientific community says that it's safe for employees for kids to go back into school buildings and that the risks are actually very minimal. So the question is why do they want to keep schools closed and they want the conclusions that I came to is that there's really very little incentive for them to want to reopen schools. What how can that possibly be.

If the science is sound and everyone from an article in nature. I believe SU you noted in your piece. Also UNICEF touting the benefits and the need for kids to be back in school, it just seems crazy that they they would be pushing back against this well it is a bit crazy but when you think about it, it actually makes a whole lot of sense.

It's logical for them because they get paid either way the minuscule chance that they get infected by Cova 19 is used as a justification to keep schools closed and when schools are closed. Now this isn't to say the teachers are working hard in remote learning environments, but they still get paid either way also of the fact that students are falling behind has no effect on teachers if when a performance-based system and students were falling behind.

Then teachers would be eager to create environments where students are working at grade level, that there caught up that they're doing all the work that they need to do and that means in person learning, but there's no incentive for teachers to ensure that students are at grade level because they get paid the same one way or the other so you know it is a matter of incentives of teachers so that there really is very little incentive for them to push for remote for an answer.

Remote learning and I'll add one more thing, as well. The longer we stay in remote learning the greater the justification for increase expenditures at the federal, state and local level.

So when we come out of this pandemic.

We are going to face, and a tremendous challenge with students that are so far behind that there is going to be a tremendous need for remediation of the students and that means that there's going to be a call for sizable increases in taxes to pay for remedial programs for these kids so in the ends they get exactly what they wants to get more money from governments they gets remote learning and they get paid just the same as they would in any other situation do you think that coming out of this.

There might also be a push from parents who are saying, hey I want more control over this. I've now had to be very closely involved in my child's education I've learned a lot of things here.

I've got a sense of how little Jill or Johnny does or doesn't do well. Could we actually see this from that lens as well. I think so and I think that is an important lens to look at the situation because in the past. The primary justification for school choices that there were kids that were stuck in schools that were not meeting their needs and these were mainly disadvantage and special needs children where they were getting an inferior education and so the states were stepping up and providing taxpayer funds to allow these students to go to schools that did meet their needs but when schools were closed entire new groups of parents simply became invested in the school choice cause and these are basically working parents, single parents, small business owners that didn't have the luxury of staying home with their child and therefore had to seek out options for their children options that would provide in person instruction so whole new groups that in the past had been very satisfied with the schools that they chose to send their child to because they bought homes in neighborhoods with good schools are suddenly now involved in the school choice movement and the reality is is that we always knew the school choice was mainstream but now it is a mainstay for whole new groups of parents that never in the past had to ever consider looking at school options for their children so we see that growing group of people who are starting to them can have a lightbulb go off over their heads about what could be possible for their child if they just were empowered more, perhaps having the at the money follow the child into whatever venue it is therefore form that the parent wants versus money just going into a system so while that's happening Terry.

We also have unions that are targeting North Carolina all types of unions here in our state. We have the North Carolina Association of educators and their an affiliate of the NEA, the big teachers union in the country. Should we expect that they will be seeking everything you described more money hire teacher pay with a focus on really workers versus kids and parents absolutely. I mean that the they are in step with with the national education Association with their parent union which is pushed for all of those things and and really pushed back against efforts from parent groups and organizations such as ours to return to in person instruction so it's happening here in North Carolina. Just not with the kind of bluster. We stay in Chicago and and in some ways that's a good thing but in other ways. There is an attempt to try to subvert the will of parents here, but I think it's also important for us to pay attention about the incoming buying administration and what role would the bind administration have in the school reopening of the school funding debate. We know that Biden likes the teacher unions is considering a former teacher union official as his Secretary of Education. Stay with this much North Carolina general radio, just a moment tired of fake names tired of reporters with political axes to grind. What you need to be reading Carolina Journal honest, uncompromising, old-school journalism, you expect and you need even better, the monthly Carolina Journal is free to subscribers sign up at Carolina. Journal.com.

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It's fresh news if you'd like a heads up on the daily news sign up for our daily email do that Carolina Journal.com Carolina Journal, rigorous, unrelenting, old-school journalism, we hold government accountable for you. Look at that Carolina Journal radio I Michiko got we've heard a lot in recent months about police and the relationships between law enforcement and minorities. This is true in North Carolina and across the country and in this segment were going to talk about how one Western state has tackled this topic getting help from John Cook, assistant minority leader of the Colorado state Senate edit the last name sounds familiar.

Yes, he is the husband of the John Locke foundation CEO Amy Cook. Welcome to the program which is pleasure beer so you in the state Senate and in the legislature. In general, and Colorado took a look at this issue of accountability and the police and law enforcement in its relationships with the community.

When this legislation started, you had some real concerns. Tell us about.

I had a lot of concerns because of my background and 30 years of the will ensures officer losses of 12+12 years, is elected sheriff so I looked at this bill and I had a lot of concerns called the revenge bill: a punishment to punish the police. Bill Evans you know it's like: some my friends is the police bill and so I had a lot of concerns because it really did punish law enforcement and punish victims in and of crime and very serious way, so long concerned. What were some of the problems with the bill. The bill was 40 pages and so there were a lot of issues, but some of them when it came to the victims yet have a body cam on the entire time you're not allowed to turn it off. So every officer had to have body cam on one problem with that is it for an officer gets called to a sexual assault on a child. They walked in and there's a naked child.

There are or there's blood he seen some kind. You cannot redacted you were not allowed to reject anything from the body cam and you had to be released within seven days to the public and to the media and that was a huge problem for victims rights and for privacy protection of victims and children. Body cams had to be on the entire time. So was the officer restaurant is allowed to turn off and if there was it was it was a criminal penalty for turning off the body cam they wanted to do away with the good faith exception for law enforcement and the qualified immunity wasn't too concerned about qualified immunity. But the good faith exception was known as Don Michael for because law enforcement operates on good faith everyday by what victims or witnesses tell them they're operating on good faith and if and witness tells officer something the author makes an arrest based on the good faith and in terms of the wrong.

The officer could be sued up $200,000 not allowed to have insurance and the city cannot indemnify them so was really punishing the officer on the street for operating under good faith.

We are chatting with Sen. John Cook of the Colorado state Senate and as we mentioned, he is the husband of the John Locke foundation's CEO Amy Cook. Do you think that the problems with this bill were all because they were out to punish the police or was it just a case of people who just didn't really have the background in law enforcement that the you didn't and didn't realize it got to be these problems. I think a little bit of both end up.

I think the way it started in with the incident happened in Minneapolis and it was like legislatures are knee-jerk bodies know is like oh, something happened over here we have to do something about it now. And so this bill was pretty much ramrod through and the ACLU is one of the main authors of the bill without the legislators admitted they just threw everything up on the wall to see what would stick and they wanted free flowing ideas from from their people and so just throw everything up and came up with this bill that was just horrendous.

Will we mention that the bill as it stood was a problem you were talking about Ford as it was originally introduced and ended up passing your Senate, 32, the one got through the whole legislature got signed into law. What happened to make it a an acceptable and very acceptable bill. What happened was an committee I was put on the state affairs committee because of my back on law enforcement and we started picking bill part in committee with the bill sponsors and be quite frank, I think bill sponsors even knew what was in the building and understanding as we were starting asked questions we are taking it piece by piece by piece of the bill sponsors and after about an hour the creatures of what were not can take any more questions for the bill sponsors were to go straight to witnesses. Now I'm never in my six years down everything that happened. As we have a right is senators the bill sponsors questions and he cut that off and at the end. I said this is a horrible bill and you not like to see some changes that and maybe have something I can support. This is what you need to do. We need to have amendments to do this, take this and take this up with this rewrite this whole section very much.

I did everything we asked so when it came back it was pretty much rewritten the totally 100% rewritten bill not perfect by any means and but it was something that we can support the because every Senate Republican was oppose the bill as is written, and they needed they need Republican votes because some of the Democrats were getting a lot of pressure from the Sheriff's this bill. You mentioned earlier is not a perfect one. But what is it do that's good. I'm a big proponent body cams because I think body cams exonerate law enforcement more than it doesn't like them and so it requires every agency to eventually have body cameras and worked out a system where the body can the footage can be redacted and it also sets up a grant fund for the agency's account afforded to buy the body cams and the most expensive part about body cameras as the storage is not the body cam.

Some of the vendors were giving body cameras away for free. User system because the storage is so expensive to us as a pathway for people law enforcement agencies to get the body cams and you know I think it does. It shows that law enforcement is willing to work with the communities and that the Chiefs of police Association, the sheriffs Association and the DAs Association in the final version all came out and supported the bill. So I think the message is a look law enforcement were here. We will work with our communities. We want to work with the legislature and we can support these changes because we recognize the fact that you know this stuff happen up in Minnesota when one happening here so I think it sends a broad message we been talking largely about what's happened in Colorado because it's what you have been working on.

If you were giving some advice to people in North Carolina or other states about how to move forward with this.

I suspect may be one of the first things you would say is make sure law enforcement attorneys, the people actually have to deal with this are part of the process, absolutely because that did not happen in Colorado. It was the came up with the bill is more fact we didn't even see the bill until they got introduced and then as soon as he got introduced was sent to committee so we see the bill had no idea what was in it until literally about an hour or two before we had to go to committee and so yes, work with the professionals work with them get their buy-in, and the other thing is, don't rush it. You get wheat we ram this through in places 40 pages. We ran to throw in literally in about a week and 1/2 and at the end of session so start early is what I would suggest a legislature startle.

If you look at some like this work out all the bugs so that we don't have to come back the next year and clean up and use it in the body and of of the professionals. That is the voice of Sen. John Cook at the Colorado state Senate assistant minority leader of Republican and he is the husband of the John Locke foundation's CEO Amy Cook. Thanks much for doing something travel membership will have more on Carolina journal radio in just a moment. If you have freedom we got great news to share with you now. You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups across North Carolina all in one place North Carolina conservative.com it's one stop shopping. North Carolina's freedom movement@northcarolinaconservative.com. You'll find links to John Locke foundation blogs on the days news Carolina journal.com reporting and quick takes Carolina journal radio interviews TV interviews featuring CJ reporters and let foundation analysts, opinion pieces and reports on higher education from the James Dean Martin, Center for academic renewal, commentary and polling data from the scimitar's Institute and news and views from the North Carolina family policy Council.

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Cook the right AOC recently offered her North Carolina audience, an important update. Got some exciting news for you about North Carolina and about two of the states premier most prominent state based free-market think tanks to share the space with me Donald Bryson CEO. The scimitar's Institute big news is the fact that the John Locke foundation in the scimitar's Institute will be merging capabilities going in the 2021, and so will we bring all the great things that you love about both organization such as Carolina journal and Pacific Hospital. The hard-hitting analysis on automobiles at the Gen. assembly combined with the deep research the John Locke foundation, all of those things will be under one roof and working together going forward into 2021. It's really exciting Donald that we get to do this and really we found this out how well we work together, not just the two of us, but our organizations over the summer and into the fall as we both focused a lot on educating voters on the fact that they can even vote on judicial races and it was really where we sort of got a first taste of how these two organizations work together how they collaborate and just how good they are together we are so much better to gather we are actually better than we seen the massive investment of the left is putting into North Carolina. We know that that is not going to stop anytime soon. It's time to adapt and come together and actually concentrate on moving free enterprise, individual liberty forward in North Carolina in the most effective way possible. And in that way we think that that's being better together, absolutely.

The other thing that will be doing to will be expanding our grassroots outreach getting outside of Raleigh and going throughout the state.

That is something scimitar says always done, but the nice thing about that that mentality will come over to this new organization, which by the way, will have a new logo we will be going out to every part of the state of North Carolina. So for the last foundation, which has traditionally been a state capital sort of think tank providing that deep analysis. The research that legislators and opinion makers need to make wise public policy decision. We're going to be able to utilize that capacity that tosses has done so well and get this out to everybody across the state. There won't be a part of the state of North Carolina where we won't go and visit and get your feedback on what were doing. That's actually right in that way converting to think tanks and one single bound clinic for the right very excited about the future of North Carolina what the future public policy could be in North Carolina and were satisfied that the best days North Carolina were still ahead of us. That's Donald Bryson. You also heard from Amy Cook. There, the leaders of the combined John Locke foundation and set a test Institute will return with more Carolina journal radio where doubling down on freedom at Carolina journal radio were proud to bring you stories that impact your life and your wallet. And now get twice as much freedom when you also listen to our podcast headlock available on iTunes and@johnlocke.org/podcast headlock is a little bit different.

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What does that mean Bowling Green State University philosophy professor Brandon Warnke explained during a recent online presentation for the John Locke foundation. My friend Justin Tosi. We will address students together we noticed at the time on Facebook. Did a lot of moral and political discussions seem to us anyway to be getting more toxic, more poisonous and spending some time thinking about what was might be causing these really unpleasant gross conversations look to us that a lot of people were engaging in discussions of morality and politics to show off a good they were saying things not so much for the conversation not to present evidence or argument or data or even just to express what they think seem to us that a lot of people were trying to impress other people trying to use moral discourse as a vanity project and so over the next year so we wrote a paper paper tent turned into a book and the basic idea of the book is that moral discourse are discussions about morality and politics is a really valuable resource.

It's how we solve social problems. It's how we recognize injustices recognize people who are worthy of trust is how we figure out how to solve the big problems both of local local Association, local politics, but also across across the nation and that tool that tool of moral and political discourse is a really valuable tool is a very fragile tool and we can use it for good ends. We can use it for Warren's one of the things we suggest in the book is one way to abuse our discussions of morality and politics is the use those for self-promotion to use our discussions of immigration or covert restrictions or family values or abortion to use our discussions of these things try to show off to people that we want to impress that we have the right moral values that were really impressive specimens. We call this grandstanding now that it has a label.

What is this grandstanding all about our theory is that a lot of people are engaging in moral grandstanding that are using these discussions not so much to actually have a conversation at present data and give evidence and interact with people have a shared understanding.

Even if you disagree, but a lot of people are doing is there is a trying to raise their social status. There there trying to make themselves look good or they're trying to dominate there and you're trying to gain the upper hand socially and morally, to make other people. Why do people grandstand a lot of us think were morally better-than-average. In fact, lots of studies show that most people think that there morally better than the average person, even violent criminals in prison rate themselves as better than average, morally on every every trait, except law-abiding this, we tend to think very highly of ourselves and we also want others to think well of us.

This is a pretty natural desire to be with others to admire us think well of us psychologist call that impression management and so well.

A lot of us are doing as were morally enhancing no week we think really well of ourselves and then ultimately really want is the recognition of others of how good we are and your hundred years ago. If you want to have an audience deserve praise you and make yourself look good you had to be a politician or maybe a minister or stay on the street corner, but now you know any anyone of us can fire up the phones and talk to audiences hundreds or thousands or millions and so no one of our hypotheses is that a lot of people are more grandstanding now, just because it's easier to do so it's easier fire up your phone and speak to speak to people and try to get the likes and the retweets to make yourself look good. That's philosophy professor Brandon Warnke of Bowling Green, co-author of the book on grandstanding.

He identifies five basic forms one of those forms we call piling on piling on is when people, especially if you seen people not engage in public shame fasts you know someone to say something some really minor indiscretion under peccadillo and then be taught the entirety of twitter jumps on and little grandson takes this former people are trying to get in on the action make themselves look good. Seem like you're on the right side of history also takes the form of recall ramping up so ramping up is what happens when Donna might say something like you know I'm really appalled by the senator's behavior. She should be censured and I say Donna, you gotta be kidding me. If you really cared about injustice, you would you would call for the senator to resign and she should step down from her position. No hashtag do better and then Justin Tosi, my co-author jumps in and says I cannot believe what I'm hearing you are all disgusting senator should be put in jail. We must rumor the world is watching. Okay so there's a kind of kind of one-upsmanship be seen as the last few months. When it comes to discussions of lease so earlier in the summer there discussions of reforming the police and I think a lot of people like yeah I think that's a good idea and then like within 48 hours. We went from reform the police to defund the police to abolish the police as there's a kind of moral arms race of people competing to take the most extreme stance another one we named before we made this before 2016: trumping up and trumping up is basically the Princess and the pea phenomenon so what of grant standards act like there morally affected by the tiniest moral wrongdoing or injustices that fall below the eye of everyone else. Don't fall below the eye of the grandstand are so I can't believe you know you watch that movie that these races that movie is like finding Nemo or something another form. Grandstanding takes is what we call excessive outrage or excessive emotion. So one thing we know from psychology is that one way to show people that you have strong moral convictions is to get outraged about. And so a lot of grant standards exploit this feature and what they'll do is to get outraged about everything. The last form that grandstanding often takes a legal dismissiveness, and grant sinners are often very dismissive so I thought of something like if you can't see what I see on my connection it to you. We don't have anything discussed here is not obvious to you.

I can always my time. You know, go away right. The basic idea in discourse for the freeze grant standards is to seek status to make themselves look good to impress other Warnke says grandstanding has plenty of negative consequences is leading to polarization, leading us to hate each other more as it pushes us further apart, leading to cynicism about public discourse. So when a lot of discourse is seen as nasty and nasty nasty self-promotion. People check out grandstanding influences political discourse.

We explain how grandstanding affects politics it pushes for their part makes it harder to compromise and it actually makes it harder to solve social problems so grant standards have an interest in keeping moral problems alive instead of solving that once he saw the moral problem. There's nothing more to the grandson about this kind of paradox bill into grandstanding about about the social issues. If you ever get the sense that it is some these people are really interested in solving the problem. Our explanation is will. Maybe they are ready to have interest in keeping the problem alive to keep their livelihood their status, their popularity if you solve the problem for which are famous you. You don't have any reason to be popular and famous anymore for critiquing the problem alive and discussing what should we do about grandstanding. It's probably not a good idea to go around calling people out grandstanding for various reasons.

So it's very tempting you see people you think are grandstanding to sale you grandstand or in a set up very hard to tell whether someone's grandstanding. You can't tell just by what they're saying. What we do recommend is, instead of looking at other people and trying to figure out who the grandstand are is to turn our days and were looking in the mirror and asking ourselves why am I engaging in public discourse. In my doing this to do good Mexican us successfully help someone do something good with this or am I just trying to look good. That's Bowling Green State philosophy professor Brandon Warnke, co-author of the book grandstanding. He discussed his work during a recent online presentation for the John Locke foundation will return with more Carolina journal radio real influence. You either have it or you don't and at the John Mott foundation we have it, you'll find our guiding principles in many of the freedom forward reforms of the past decade here in North Carolina. So while others talk or complain or name call. We provide research solutions and hope our team analyzes the pressing issues of the day jobs, healthcare, education, and more.

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Our goal is to transform North Carolina into a growing, thriving economic powerhouse envy of every other state. Our research is how policymakers make decisions that ensure you keep more of what you earn. Expand your choice of schools for your kids. Widen your job opportunities improve your access to doctors. The recipe for stability and a bright future for truth for freedom for the future of North Carolina. We are the John lock foundation. Welcome back to Carolina journal radio Donna Martinez, Gov. Roy Cooper has since the early part of 2020 used the state emergency management act to impose restrictions on our movement restrictions on business commerce all sorts of things in our next guest is very concerned about the governor's muscular reliance on this law not only now but for the president. This can actually set for future governors John today is director of legal studies for the John Locke foundation. He joined us now with a look at the issue of the power of government.

John welcome back to the program think you gotta one person, essentially controlling the lives of more than 10 million people.

It seems like an idea that you really don't want to buy into no matter who that person. It is Democrat, Republican, certainly not its very definition of charity. That's the whole reason we have a separation of powers under our our federal Constitution them emphatically under our North Carolina Constitution. The governor ordinarily doesn't have the power to make these rules that power lies with the general assembly, the way it should. It's a legislative power, not an executive power to the emergency management act is the issue here, and how it's being interpreted by Gov. Cooper. He is saying that it gives and the right to make all these decisions in a situation that is out of the ordinary when talking about the Cova 19 pandemic. What is your read of that of the emergency management act will. This is in fact the similar acts in every state it does seem to make sense on its face, at least to give the governor some extraordinary powers in actual emergency to force to make and enforce orders without going through the whole legislative process. That's what emergency powers ask her for that's what our actors for, but you don't want to give them unchecked powers. And it's important that any good well-crafted emergency act provide those kinds of checks now. Ours is particularly good because of North Carolina we have something called a council estate. We don't have a unitary executive. The way many states to executive power. The state is is dispersed over 10 different executive offices, each of whom is elected by the people they are all the statewide elected officials, agriculture Commissioner Lieut. Gov. those types of position. That's right. And and because they come from more than one party there pretty equally divided right now between the Democrats and Republicans because the hail from different parts of the state because each of them is elected by the people.

That's an important check on executive power. So what we've gotten our emergency power act is a provision that says yes, the government could declare an emergency.

Yes, you have certain standard powers but also has extraordinary powers that he could exercise with the concurrence of the Council of State when he at when he issued his very first one of these locked out orders whether close the bars or restaurants.

He actually sought approval from the council estate and he claimed in the order itself that he is a painter, but in fact he hadn't six members refused to go along with this order, and he went ahead anyway and he claimed he could do that because as a separate provision that pertains to local authorities and their powers that have their own set of powers and in that provision. It's it. Section 1930 see it says that if the governor finds that local control is insufficient to deal with the emergency he could exercise another set of powers, and so now ever since that first order he's been relying on those powers under 30 see the problem there is that if all you have to do is simply say all well local authority. Local control is insufficient, then he's got unlimited powers of the designated Council state. I don't think that could be the right interpretation. But that's the interpretation he's taking. Here's what I find curious John.

Initially, Gov. Cooper did go to the Council of State to try to get their approval does not indicate you to you by his actions that his own administration's view is that he wanted and needed their approval.

Well yes and if you read that first order that's very clear that that's how he thought this was supposed to work that he's just changed his position ever since. Because he couldn't get the approval that he wanted was interesting as well that the current Lieut. Gov. Dan Forest to at the time was challenging Gov. Cooper for the governor seat, Dan Forrest, of course, lost that race, Gov. Roy Cooper will serve a second term, but that was an important issue to Lieut. Gov. Dan Forest and Denny challenge that legally he did he he he filed a lawsuit saying that all these orders were illegal because they were issued without counsel, state concurrence, he took it a good deal of the way.

But when he got a first adverse ruling from a court not on the merits of his complaint itself, but simply on his request for an emergency or a temporary injunction to stop enforcement, the court ruled against the bear. He just dropped the suit which was, I thought, very disappointed. So the general assembly, the legislature makes the laws in the state does that mean then John that the general assembly could take this up and amend this act to make it very clear that one person doesn't have sole control they could, and in my opinion they should course, if they do it in the next session likely outcome is that the governor will just veto it, but they might be able to if they haven't any sense. The members of both parties will see that this is a case of the governor, usurping their legitimate powers under the Constitution. I would think at least some Democrats might see that that's not what we want. They might override a veto.

And even if they don't we just have to start the process. Sooner or later I think we'll get to the point where I governor will go along with this is because it's obviously what we needed. That's not the only thing that's wrong with the emergency management act. What else well 11 of the biggest problems that I see with it is open-ended, most states emergency management acts have a time limit 30 days. In some cases 90 days and some others, but at some point the government has to go to the legislature and say I need you to extend my powers like they don't just allow the governor go on acting like a tyrant or dictator or king indefinitely. There is a fixed limit on the duration of his powers are act doesn't have that.

I think we need to add it.

I think that's very important.

I wonder about the precedent that's being set here John. Because let's say to future governor. Maybe it's a governor I agree with. Maybe it's a governor I disagree with let's say that he or she decides that climate change is the emergency that is is occurring in North Carolina or it's another public health issue. Maybe it's the flu or something, we don't even know about yet.

Are we really setting ourselves up here for people in that position feeling that well. Roy Cooper did it so I'm gonna do it to. I think we absolutely are setting ourselves up for that. That's exactly the prospect we got ahead of us all over the country. In fact, governors have clearly been relishing all these extensive powers and it's going to be hard for them. I think to relinquish them once a pandemic is over. I'm hoping that not just in North Carolina but all over the country. Steps will be taken to reign in these powers so that we don't end up in the situation again were governors could just exercise to radical powers unchecked. In fact, you have been writing about the fact that it is set, the burden of government to illustrate to the people that this is necessary at this time talk a little bit more if you would John about the relationship between the governed and the government. Well, our country was founded on the but what I call the presumption of liberty, all else being equal, people should be free to do the act, to think, to talk and to act as they please without government interference. Anytime the government was to interfere through regulation. Another kinds of directives on how people behave, the burden is on the government to prove that this is a important interest at stake here that this is the most efficient and least restrictive way to accomplish what needs to be done and so forth. Unfortunately, courts have stopped enforcing that the way they should, but I hope it will make a comeback.

John today is the director of legal studies for the John Mark foundation.

He's been writing about these really consequential issues of the relationship between government and the governed, and particularly the emergency management act that Gov. Cooper has been relying on for months and months now in order to dictate what more than 10 million N. Carolinians can and cannot do during the Cova 19 pandemic. That's all the time we have for Carolina journal radio this week. Thank you for listening on behalf of Mitch foci I'm Donna Martinez. Join us again next week for another edition. Carolina journal radio Carolina journal radio is a program of the John Locke to learn more about the John Locke foundation donation support programs like Carolina journal radio send email to development John Locke done call 66 JL left 166-553-4636 Carolina journal radio is the John line foundation, Carolina's free-market think tank and Carolina broadcasting system, Inc. all opinions expressed on this program are selling those did not merely reflect the station. More information about the show. Other programs and services of the foundation. John Locke toll-free at 866 JL would like to thank our wonderful radio affiliates across Carolina and our sponsors. Carolina journal radio. Thank you for listening.

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