Matt Slick Live

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Let's get back on with Ryan. Are you still there? Yes, I am.

Thank you very much. I appreciate you letting me continue with this. Before we go on, do you mind if I ask your permission to repeat a quote of yours and make sure that it's an accurate quote?

Sure, go ahead. A while back, you made this statement on your show, on this show. Quote, if there are any babies that die in infancy that are in hell, they're there because they deserve it.

Is that still an accurate understanding of your current position? I would say that if there's any babies in hell, it's because it's the right thing for God to do to send them there. Okay, so once again, this was your original quote. If there are babies that die in infancy that are in hell, they are there because they deserve it. Is that an accurate... Yeah, I would say so because they're made sinners in the fall of Adam. We are all, by nature, children of wrath. So it would be something that belonged to them as it belongs to all people who are born in Adam, which 1 Corinthians 15, 22 says, in Adam all die. In Romans, excuse me, in Ephesians 2, 3, we are, by nature, children of wrath.

So, yeah, and it's because of the righteous judgment of God that they would be there, if it occurs. Okay. By the way, your buddy Charlie just entered something into the chat and your buddy Charlie is lying through his teeth right now. Okay, let's stop that. Let's stop that. Let's stop that. I want to stick on topic, okay?

Let's not do that. Okay, all right. So you're telling me that appreciation, which means a sacrifice that removes wrath, you mean then that he removed the wrath of those who are damned? Well, okay, according to what you posted up there, there was three different ideas about what perpetuation means. You posted it up on your screen and there are three different ways of describing it, okay?

You're picking one of those and saying that's what it means here when there are three options and you're choosing the one that is going to be most adherent to your own theology that you have imposed. Anyway, once again… That's not true. That's not true.

That's not true. I just looked at the definitions. Like it means turning away of anger by the offering of a gift. That's in Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible, 1988. And the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says removal of wrath by the offering of a gift. So I said, oh, look at that. So that's a propitiation to me.

That's how I learned it. Right. Okay. Yes, so yes, Christ turned back the wrath of all of mankind.

Okay. Then how were they? How are people in hell if their wrath has been removed? Well, because they love the darkness more than they love the light, just like it tells us in the first chapter of John's Gospel. So the wrath of God is removed from them, but it's also not removed from them, right? Well, that is why no man is without excuse, because if Christ did not sacrifice for all, then someone has an excuse and say, well, the reason I'm here is not my fault.

It's your fault because you didn't die for me. This removes any excuse from them being condemned. And so the simple biblical fact is that Christ created all things. All things fell without him. Christ loved all things. Christ died for all things. Christ is present in all things, revealing God to all things.

Okay. So sin is breaking the law of God, 1 John 3-4. Sin is lawlessness. That's not all it is, Bill.

It's not all it is, but it is that. And Jesus says, our Father of heart and heaven, hallowed be thy name. In Matthew 6-12, he said, forgive us our debts. And in parallel, Luke 11-4, he said, forgive us our sin. Would you agree that Jesus equated sin with legal debt? In that particular passage, yes. But in other passages, it's not just associated with debt. So in Colossians 2-13, the last part of it, it says, he made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all our transgressions. And in verse 14, having canceled out the certificate of debt, consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us.

He's taken it out of the way, having nailed to the cross. What is the certificate of debt that he canceled? Well, the certificate of debt is obviously in that particular passage of Colossians.

That's something that Paul uses that way. You know this, and there are other passages that refer to the grace of God being more than just for the forgiveness of sins, such as Romans 5-20, where sin has abounded, grace has abounded even more. I just asked, what's the certificate of debt he canceled?

What's the debt? Obviously of sin, obviously. So it says, having canceled it, having nailed it to the cross, so when did he cancel the sin debt? Obviously when he was sacrificed, obviously. There you go, that's propitiation. But that's not the only aspect of the sacrifice of Christ. So did he cancel it for everybody who ever lived? Yes. Did he cancel it for everyone who ever lived? Oh, he did. So he canceled the sin debt for everyone who ever lived, and he removed the wrath of God from everyone who ever lived, and yet apparently they still have sin and the wrath of God upon them because they go to judgment?

How does that work? Again, because they love the darkness more than the light, just exactly as John tells you. And if you are consistent with what you're saying about the sacrifice of Christ, that it's only limited to the elect, then you're going to have very serious problems like you've already shown. You cannot exegete 1 John 2-2, you cannot exegete John 1-29, you cannot exegete John 3-16, you cannot exegete 1 Peter 3-9, you cannot exegete a whole slew of passages that clearly show that the sacrifice of Christ is more than just for the elect.

Okay, so you're wrong about that. So did he take away the sin of every individual who ever lived, according to John 1-29? If he took away their sin, how would they go to hell then if they took away their sin, if God did? Well, if you had studied the prologue of John, you'd know that taketh away is different than perpetuation.

You would know that it's different than atonement. And taketh away is an idiom that comes from the Aramaic, and it is not for the forgiveness of sins, but it is, again, it's actually expiation. And expiation is something that the sacrifice of Christ is applied to all of creation. So when he says, Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world, notice that it is singular. It's referring to the fallenness of all things.

Hold on, you're just going on and on, I'm just asking simple questions. So you're saying he took away the sin of every individual. How does someone go to hell if their sin is taken away?

I just told you, because they love the darkness more than they love the land. That's sin, so it's taken away. So how do they go to hell for that if it's taken away? I just told you, the sacrifice of Christ is there to make salvation available.

But if they are... Wait a second, so it's available depending upon what we do. So did Christ remove the sin dead at the cross or not?

Yes. Then it's not dependent upon what we do, is it? You're a humanist. Well, salvation is completely because of Christ, and you know this. The light of Christ is in all of mankind.

He is the true light of the light of every man that comes into the world. We're talking about the issue of the sin debt. He cancelled it at the cross. It's not cancelled when you believe.

Did you know that? Well, you have to know that salvation begins when you believe. What occurs when we believe, biblically? Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and he is risen from the dead, and thou shalt be saved. You're saved when you believe, saved from God's righteous judgment. Good.

What else occurs when we believe? Okay, we're forgiven of sins. We're justified. Okay, we're justified.

Justified by part of it also. So what happens is that the sin is cancelled, the sin debt is cancelled at Jesus' sacrifice. It's not made effective by what you do. It's made effective by what God in flesh did. It's not dependent on your ability, your wisdom.

I didn't say it was dependent on my ability or my wisdom, because Christ's light is in all of mankind. That's why we're able to do it. Your humanism is creeping in. You see, you can understand something. Yes, it is, because humanism says that Christ's sacrifice becomes effective when you do something. You have to believe, right?

Well, here's the thing. Is that why you're justified? Well, I'm saying that the grace of Christ is more than sin, just as Romans 5.20 tells us. And I'm saying that when you execute Scripture, it says very clearly that Christ died for all of mankind, at least.

He does? Even though God said that Eli's house, the sins there, would not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever, Jesus' sacrifice was an atonement, it certainly was a sacrifice, and forever includes the time frame of Christ. So you just get out of that one. What was the other verse you said in Peter that I can't exegete? What was it? First Peter, I think it's 2.9, I think. Let's see if I can exegete it. Okay, let's see. Well, rather than doing that, why don't you just do John 1.29, since we're in the writing of John. I just did. I just did. How?

Go for it. John 1.29 takes away the sins of the world. If you think the word world means every individual, then it means everybody's sin is taken away, they can't go to hell. You have the problem, not me. Very good, you did not exegete it. Well, you're the one who did not exegete it. Look, we've got to go.

You didn't exegete it. Call back tomorrow. We've got a break. We've got other people waiting. Call back tomorrow. Alright, I'll call tomorrow. Let's continue.

Short up your argument. Thanks for calling. Hey folks, we'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Alright, everybody, welcome back to the show. As much as I would have loved to have continued with that, but we do have callers waiting, so I want to get to them. Let's get to Jermaine from California. Jermaine, welcome. You're on the air. Oh, hi, Matty.

I'll be real quick. I was enjoying that fascinating exchange, but my question has to do with doctrines such as, I guess, eternal security. And I know I'll probably have to call back tomorrow to really get into it, though. One thing that disturbed me is one of the gentleman's near-death experiences that he had, he claimed that many doctrines were false. And he said, you know, the nonsense about once saved, always saved was from the pits of hell, which he claimed to have visited.

But the issue is, when he's making those definitive statements, he offered no scripture or no discussion, you know, no opportunity for discussion to even go into it. And I have to forward his name, too. This was a gentleman who claimed to have visited hell, had a near-death experience, and got out, and he was warning people. But I just noticed that him and some – Was his name Corner? I want to say Morrell. His last name was like – Oh, Jesse Morrell.

I know Jesse. No, no, it was Dominic. It was a Dominic. I have to forward the exact name so I'm not butchering you, but his account just didn't sit well with me because he didn't seem to offer any scripture.

And there was no discussion, and there was no attention. I'm not trying to be overly critical, but to me that's just a red flag. I just kind of wanted to hear what you had to say on that. I'm pretty sure I had to call back because it's a little late to show.

Yeah, it's not a problem. Here's what I do with people who say that. You know, there's several things, but one of them I say is go to, for example, John 10, 27, 28. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me, and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish. So Jesus equates eternal life with never perishing. Then go to John 3, 16, or you can reverse it.

The order doesn't matter. John 3, 16, God told the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. There's Jesus again equating eternal life with never perishing. So then you could do is go to John 6, 37, and there, all that the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I certainly will not cast out. I come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me, for this is of the will of him who sent me that all is given to me.

I lose nothing, never perish, right, but raise it up on the last day. This is the will of my Father that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in him will have eternal life, and I'll raise him up on the last day. So there again, Jesus says he will lose none, that means he can't perish, and he'll have eternal life. So Jesus himself equates eternal life with never perishing. That's what I'd say to them, so when someone has eternal life it's because they believe, John 6, 40. This is the will of my Father that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in him will have eternal life. So if Jesus says by beholding and believing in Christ you have eternal life, and he says and they will never perish, then are you saying they will perish? Put them up against Christ, okay, that's one thing you can do. Make sense? Yeah, it makes perfect sense to me. Okay, and then the other thing you can do is, I love doing this when people tell me they can lose their salvation, and I say, okay, thank you.

I have on my computer right now, I have a screen open, I have a window open, I have my fingers on the keyboard right now. Could you please give me a list, one, two, three things, whatever it is, that you have to do in order to keep yourself right with God and make sure you don't lose your salvation. What's the list? And they'll give me something, they say they don't know, then you don't know if you have eternal life, because if you can lose it and you don't know what you have to do to keep it, then you could be lost, couldn't you?

Ooh, that's bad. But if there is a list, what is a list? Now what they'll try and do is be as generic as possible, usually. You've got to believe, okay, believe, okay, gotcha, believe, what else? Is that it, just believe? Because if you're just believing, I would say, hey, no problem, you have to believe, and if you don't believe, then you're going to go to hell. I said, oh, let me ask you a question, then. Do you take credit for your believing?

That's what I do, I ask them. Do you take credit for your believing? And the reason I ask it is because of Philippians 1 29, which says this, For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer. So God is the one who grants that you believe. So do you take credit for your own believing, or do you give it the glory to God that he granted that you believe? Which is it, Mr. Humanist? You see?

If they say, you can't go to R-rated movies, you can't this, you have to read your Bible four hours a day, whatever it is, whatever the list is, doesn't make a difference. If you say, are you doing that? And you ask them, are you keeping yourself right with the infinitely holy God by your goodness? And I've had people say yes.

I say, then, do you need to pat yourself on the back? Because you're awesome. That you are able to keep yourself right, you do it, by your continued faithfulness, your continued abiding in grace, your continued works and stuff and goodness. That is awesome. That is so awesome. That is that good.

Praise God for you. Okay? Okay. Yeah, no, I'll definitely pick this back up.

But yeah, that was great. Thank you for what you're doing. Really appreciate it. Okay. All right, man, call back. We can think about it, call back and stuff, because I love talking about eternal security with people and stuff. All right? Okay, brother. Okay, Jermaine. All right, hey, let's get to Nelson from the People's Republic of California. Nelson, welcome, you're on the air.

Hey, Matt, God bless. Actually, this question actually lines up right along with what you've been talking about the last two callers. First and foremost, this question has arrived to me, and I kind of really don't, I know how to answer it, but I just want to get your feedback.

I know that there's election, we have been elected, those who believe, and it's all because of God. Now, when it goes back to Judas Iscariot, because Christ chose him. Yes.

Correct me if I'm wrong with this, and this is where I kind of get iffy of myself. Did Jesus elect him to betray him? Election has different meanings in different contexts.

Yes. So election for salvation is a choosing for salvation, which is different than a choosing to be an apostle. Because Judas was chosen to be an apostle, but yet, it says, Jesus says in John 6, 64, there are some of you who do not believe. Now he's talking about Judas, because he says, for he knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe and who it was who betrayed him. So it was already known who he was, and also 1 John 2, 19 says, they went out from us because they were not really of us for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us, but they went out. So that should be shown they're not really of us.

So if Judas had been of them, for real, he would have stayed, but he didn't. Okay. Okay. Yeah, because I was just wondering, because I guess my question with that follow up question is like, if God elects people to be saved, does God choose people to be damned as well?

That's called equal ultimacy. And let's see. And there's a yes and a no to it.

And there's different thoughts about it. So I'm going to go through and discuss them. What I'm going to do is go to Romans, I'll do this first. I'm going to go to Proverbs 16 four, and it says in Proverbs 16 four, it says, the Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil. So, wait a minute, he made the wicked for the day of evil. Now what does that mean? Well, we could talk about that.

But that's something to consider. Also, when we go to Romans chapter nine, we started verse 22, what if God, although willing to demonstrate his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And he did so to make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he prepared before him for glory. So there's a lot of discussion about this. Okay, we don't have time to get into it all.

But let me just run some stuff. Is it the case that God specifically makes certain individuals for the purpose of destruction? We could draw the conclusion from this text that he, what if, what if God willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? So it seems the implications, well yes, he is enduring them.

They're prepared for destruction. A common response, hold on, just trying to be fair about the text and what people say. A common response is that, well he could, but he doesn't do it. What if God was willing to do this, but it doesn't say he did.

That's one of the common responses. Then you say, okay, and he did so to make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory. Well, did he make the people beforehand for glory? Well, if he said he could have, but he didn't, then what's happening is you're stripping away God's sovereignty.

And in the context of Romans 9, where God says that he hardened Solomon, does things and I go into that when I have time. So that's one of the views that says, well, yes, he does do that. Another view is that, let's look at it this way, there's a prison.

Let's say there's a thousand really bad people in it, these guys, a thousand, without doubt, without doubt, each one of them is absolutely guilty of their crimes, very bad crimes, without a doubt. And a rich person, say you and me, we're suddenly really rich. I hope you like that. We're now billionaires, you and me. So you're welcome. And so you and I are pretty cool guys too. In fact, there's another thing we're doing really well, aren't we? And we decide to go to that prison and save some people and pay their debts and get them out. And we could choose how many. We could choose.

You want to do all of them or one or 500 or 100. But whatever reasons we might have, let's say we do 100. And we take 100 of those who naturally belong judged and we let them, the 900, we let them go their natural way. And we only choose 100. Well, why do we pick those 100? You and I went through and we met all of them.

We decide, you say, I'm going to do these 50 and I say, I'll do those 50. And well, what reason? I don't know. It's because of this and that. So are we then choosing the others to not be saved? In one sense, yes.

But in another sense, no. We are choosing them not to be saved by not choosing them to be saved. But on the other hand, because today we're just letting them go their natural way. And yet we are actively choosing and preparing certain people to be set free. There's where our action of redemption is upon them actively, but not upon the others actively.

So where we would say the redemption is active, but the damnation in that sense is passive. So you see how people discuss this? Okay. Okay. Well, all right. That helps or not, but that's just giving you views. And I think there's truth in both of those views.

I think there's truth in both. Okay. All right.

Yeah, that answered my question, Matt. Well, thank you very much. Thank you for the enlightenment. Praise God for that.

You're welcome, man. God bless you. By God's grace. All right.

So, folks, people who might object to these possibilities do so, in my opinion, because they follow the blonde haired, blue-eyed Caucasian surfer dude, dressed in a woman's nightgown, asking permission for you in your wisdom to let him in because he's a nice guy, wouldn't hurt a fly, and he's up to everybody's free will choice. That's a theology that's prominent in most churches today, unfortunately. Hey, there you go. We're out of time. May the Lord bless you. By His grace. We'll be back on here tomorrow, and then we'll offend even more of you then. Hope you have a great evening. God bless. Bye.