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Carolina Journal Radio No. 851: Trump stumps in N.C. ahead of special congressional elections

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai
The Truth Network Radio
September 9, 2019 8:00 am

Carolina Journal Radio No. 851: Trump stumps in N.C. ahead of special congressional elections

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai

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September 9, 2019 8:00 am

President Trump heads back to North Carolina, one day before voters head to the polls in two special congressional elections. Trump’s trip to Fayetteville is designed to support the campaign of Republican Dan Bishop in the 9th District race. Bishop faces Democrat Dan McCready in a special election resulting from alleged absentee ballot shenanigans involving a contractor for previous Republican candidate Mark Harris. Voters in the 3rd District also head to the polls to choose the successor to the late U.S. Rep. Walter Jones. Rick Henderson, Carolina Journal editor-in-chief, analyzes Trump’s visit and its potential impact on the special elections. As North Carolina considers the possibility of permitting dental therapy in this state, the John Locke Foundation recently hosted an event to focus on the issue. Featured speaker Christy Jo Fogarty is a dental therapist in Minnesota and the first advanced dental therapist in the United States. Fogarty offers ideas to help N.C. policymakers decide whether to pursue dental therapy options in this state. As the state budget impasse continues, legislative leaders are pursuing a plan to offer tax refunds of up to $250 to N.C. taxpayers. State House Speaker Tim Moore and Senate leader Phil Berger recently explained their proposal and its link to North Carolina’s nearly $900 million revenue surplus. Classical liberals play an important role in promoting the virtues and value of the free-market system. John Allison, former head of BB&T bank and former president of the libertarian Cato Institute, delivered that message during the recent annual meeting of the group Classical Liberals in the Carolinas. Some judges and magistrates use computerized risk-assessment tools to determine how to handle criminal defendants before trial. But those tools have come under attack from some high-profile academics. Jon Guze, John Locke Foundation director of legal studies, analyzes the debate and its possible significance in North Carolina.


From chair to current and the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most of public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio why Michiko got during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our stick people interested in healthcare innovation might want to take a closer look at dental therapy, the nation's first advanced dental therapist joins us to explain why taxpayers across North Carolina could see refunds of up to $250. That's thanks to an unexpected state revenue surplus.

A former high profile bank executive in North Carolina touts the role of classical liberals promoting the American free market system and will dive into the debate over computerized risk assessment tools for criminal defendants awaiting trial. Those topics are just ahead. But first, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal headline, Pres. Trump is heading back to North Carolina this week for a campaign stop in Fayetteville. The visit designed to support Republican congressional candidate Dan Bishop who is in a special election North Carolina's ninth district the election that he's running against Democrat Dan McCready, Rick Anderson is editor-in-chief of Carolina Journal Carolina Journal following this special election very closely and Rick joins us now to take a look at the president coming back to the state. Rick welcome back to the show.

Thank you so first of all.

September 10 is this special congressional election for the ninth congressional district and just to quickly recap, we had ballot shenanigans that went on in the original election. The state board of elections would not certify it so they ordered a new election. Right now we have the candidates, Dan Bishop, the Republican Dan McCready, the Democrat soap. The president has been tweeting out his support of the Republican Dan Bishop, how important is that, well it's it's helpful because not only is you. Well, I don't want to make an appearance on behalf of Dan Bishop, the president's son, Donald Trump Junior and his girlfriend Kim will go forward. Foil appeared at a fundraiser for Dan Bishop in Monroe.

Right before Labor Day. And so that's very important because this district is considered to be something one that should be safe Republican. But as the previous election showed is not because the race was settled by less than a thousand ballot so it's quite possible that there McCready actually won the legitimate vote in that election will never know because of the ballot to offer all that took place there.

So Democrats think they can pick the seat off. They also think they were there McCready. They have a candidate veteran entrepreneur in the renewable energy business somebody who is fits the mold of the moderate Democrat with the sympathies for the military and all I could might be a really effective candidate in North Carolina and a lot of swing districts like the ninth and so this is a big race nationally, not only because of the attention was drawn to it beforehand because of all the illegalities that took place in noisy legalities. It took place, but also because this is a very close district as well as been held by Republican almost forever. Interesting that you would describe Dan McCready is a more moderate Democrat because that is an issue in today's said Democratic Party.

Certainly the radical wing and then the more moderate wing. The president and his tweets supporting Republican Dan Bishop really cast the Democrat Dan McCready as very much a radical leftist trying to associate him with the freshman Democratic congresswomen known as the squad right and that's that's going to be the main tenor of the campaign. If you look at the Dan Bishop social media accounts and look at his treatment. This is very much making this an ideological battle with Dan Bishop very much as the conservative and he's crying. McCready is very far left of center.

You see, also, that this race that died during a recent debate that the two candidates had there.

McCready's were steered away from some questions that might've been critical of the trumpet ministration for this study was asked about the impact of tariffs on businesses on farmers and the like.

And he instead turned to the question inflicted to Dan Bishop who is a member of the state Senate member, the general assembly and how bad the Gen. assembly's agenda has been for North Carolina.

He didn't wouldn't really directly address things. It could be seen as critical of Pres. Trump so so the presidents position in the presence of us were standing in that district is considered to be very important. Interesting that dad Dan Bishop so he has the president behind him and a lot of traditional Republican support in that area.

But as you said much closer race. This time Dan McCready has the powerhouse behind him of the national Democratic Party lot of outside groups, the Democrats really want this seat badly will they do because I think that this they think that this would be a could be a bellwether of the 2012 election cycle. Hard to say because they could've actually won the seat quite possibly back in 2018 will never know that but I think they also see their McCready or someone is a rising star if he successful in this race. And someone who you and this is the sort profile of the candidate that they're looking to run in 2020.

Going to see an awful lot of veterans running in the open seats were perhaps vulnerable but vulnerable Republicans in 2020. Going to see an awful lot of business owners you're going to see entrepreneurs glisten sorts of moderate Democrats who were very important in the Democrats re-taking control of the house about a decade ago and are trying to do so. It did so course in 2016. All that was a different cover for a different sort of election because of the dynamics of the of the races in like this is for candidates are going after their party definitely has moved left in there and all four Democrats and swing districts who would like to have it backwards so it Dan Bishop prevails. It seems to me and tell me what you think that Ted that would have the Republican Party at the national level. Breathing a bit of a sigh of relief as you mentioned some people say this could be the bellwether for 2020 but one would think the Republicans were just be glad to have everything over rational district. If Dan McCready wins the seat big victory for Democrats or even comes close to winning outlets that he loses, but he comes close.

What does that say to the Democratic Party as Democratic voters look to choose a presidential candidate. If a McCready more moderate were to do well or when battleground state. Yes, I think that would get a lot of encouragement from that night's district itself. We don't know what the ninth district is going to look like 2024 thing because the districts are some redistricting before the required redistricting after 2020 race.

And so what this will be that this will be a good indication for them because the district itself has a unique Union County, which is a Republican stronghold, but also a suburb of Charlotte so this is one of these suburban exurban counties where the real battle is taking place in a lot of cases also has some of the southern area of Mecklenburg, which again South Charlotte, usually Republican stronghold, but again it's roof you more the country club Republicans if I can use that that term and then it stretches out east and goes all the way in the Cumberland County and Robson County and those are areas that are more conservative. For the most part, so if McCready does well or wins than that one might signal the Democrats things are in play. I don't know how much to take from this though, because again, McCready did really well in 2018 and also Dan Bishop is not been able campaign is actively he says he would've liked of the Gen. assembly has been in session the entire time.

This race is the exit polls, no matter how it turns out a very fascinating you mentioned those suburban exurban areas and no secret that the term campaign is looking very closely at suburban females in the vote on where they will go in 2020. That might be an interesting exit poll to look at. Requester quickly to the third District because there is a second special election happening on September 10. That's over in eastern North Carolina. The third Congressional District Republican Greg Murphy is running against Alan Thomas, the Democrat Tim Harris, the libertarian that race because of the death of Walter Jones, Pres. Trump is been silent on this one. He is not way that it all may see something in the time leading up to the election, but he is not talked about it, it's possible. Republicans are worried about the district because this is one that Walter Jones ran unopposed in the general election at least once. And so it also was a district though it was very closely tied to him and his family. His father had served part of that area that's represented by the district. The other thing to do is that is not sufficient very very low key race in lots of ways and also Greg Murphy representative, state representative has been in the general assembly. The whole time and so the campaign is been a lot lower key because that third District race also is something to keep an eye on Rick Henderson is editor-in-chief of Carolina Journal if you're looking for election coverage, particularly election night and the day after.

Make sure you check out the website of Carolina journal that is Carolina Rick, thank you very much say with as much more Carolina journal radio to come in just a moment tired of fake names tired of reporters with political axes to grind. What you need to be reading Carolina journal, honest, uncompromising, old-school journalism, you expect and you need even better, the monthly Carolina journal is free to subscribers sign you'll receive Carolina Journal newspaper in your mailbox each month. Investigations into government spending revelations about boondoggles. The powerful leaders are and what they're doing in your name and with your money. We shine a light on it all with the stories and angles. Outlets barely cover but there's a bonus print newspapers published monthly by our daily news site gives you the latest news each and every day lot onto Carolina once, twice, even three times a day.

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I mixed co-guy dental therapy is relatively new.

Innovation in healthcare that can increase access and reduce costs. If North Carolina wants to pursue this option. It would be good to know more about how it works and that's why we welcome to the program Christie Joe Fogarty. She is the first advanced dental therapist in the country. Welcome to the program. Thank you for having appreciated so you started with this dental therapy in Minnesota that correct Minnesota was the first state to confine into state law course extend dental therapist in some form in Alaska for I'm coming up on 15 years now that Minnesota pass the legislation in 2009's the legislation is just this just is just this month, 10 years old on the practitioners that then out there for about eight years before we get into the details of how works of how it worked. Minnesota and was important. Remind folks how is dental therapy different than what they think Going to the dentist office. Sherry somehow therapist is weekly compare cells quite often to nurse practitioners or physicians assistant, sometimes called a mid-level provider and we really work is like an extender for a dentist one more member of the dental team we can do any filling stainless tell crowns in both adult and permanent teeth we can do extractions of primary teeth, and of limited extractions on adult teeth so really helped to expand the dental practice for the dentist more than a hygienist less than someone who's got the DDS degree correct correct. I am also a licensed hygienist, but not everyone is in the state. Why is this something that you see is a helpful addition place like North Carolina might look into the somehow could be helpful to add dental therapy to what we already have Cheryl one of the things that's been recognized nationally is that there is a shortage of dentists, some is little bit of maldistribution, but some of it is a genuine shortage will find that about. For every three dentist that retiring as her baby boomers retire with about two dentist coming out of coming out of dental school and unfortunately that means that there is already a shortage in name and that people are keeping teeth longer than wanting to eat healthier and people are living longer, so there's a huge market out there that many didn't exist 100 years ago.

That certainly exists now so you have a shortage in a profession and and this is really a way to help expand that. In addition, you have this on group or population who really struggle to find access to dental care for many reasons. One is on public assistance programs are accepted or have limited access to dentists there uninsured and it's priced right out of their range and dental therapist can help dental offices can open and close that access to care issue you been working as a therapist for how long I've been down therapist on coming up on eight years. In August, but I been in dentistry for 25 years I started out as a dental assistant back in 1995 practices a dental hygienist for 12 years before entering the program.

There how did things change if you went from being assisted hygienist, especially from hygienist to valve therapy. However, worth receiving the same patients basically just being able to do more for me that's exactly how it was. I wasn't someone who worked in public health, and I moved from a private practice and public health actually move from independent contracting really tempting myself out into dental therapy. So for me has been such a rewarding experience to provide more more care for all of my patients. We are chatting with Christie Joe Fogarty who was the first advanced dental therapist in the country. She operates out of Minnesota as a North Carolina is starting to look at the possibility of making dental therapy available here when you deal with the particular patient.

How much of their dental needs. Are you able to deal with you for many patients able to take care of anything they need. Sure I'm I'm I'm fortunate that I get them to work in pediatric dentistry and dental therapy is very much geared towards pediatric dentistry. Of course can service anyone birth to death bad for me because of the scope of practice allowed in Minnesota. I really can do almost everything and and I do, frankly, do everything that we are dentist can do in our practice because they were for out the things that I wouldn't do either.

I we don't do a lot of oral surgery on the only thing that I don't do hygienist provide is in hospital care for those that are very young and have a significant need in any kind of general honesty should have their work done. But I can take out any primary teeth. I can do all their sins to crown second in the hands of feelings, work for an organization called children's dental services and Macy's children from birth until age 26 in pregnant women. So for that population. I can really do just about all of the services that our organization provides. Of course, if I were in a private practice it would not be able to do implants crown and bridge, oral surgery, things are much higher nature and that not been trained to do. We've heard that one of the sources of opposition to making dental therapy legal here in North Carolina would be from dentist dentists in Minnesota respond having these therapist well I can say today.

The Dennis the Menace that I have been being are fantastic.

Yes or number. Now we have eight classes of Dennis that have gone to school without therapist may understand as they train side-by-side with them that in their scope of practice. They've been trained to the level of the dentist and they really understand the role of dental therapist complain their practice of that's been really fantastic for the state of Minnesota course I started when there were no dental therapists in practice, and it was it was tough. It was tough for them to understand how our role within. There was a great deal of opposition people concerned that I am fact work with a dentist who was in dental school like I was in dental therapy school different schools and she had been told by her professors that these dental therapist will take your job and she ended up being a huge advocate for dental therapy when she really realize we are nothing but an extender were part of the team were not here to take anyone's jobs were here to help their daddies so we seen a huge huge turn in Minnesota I think from a great deal, opposition to a great deal of acceptance we find that the number one person who wants to hire dental therapist is someone who Artie has dental therapist working form once they understand how they fit into the practice. They really really want more therapist working.

I found this far along that dentists see only to win the dental therapist is working on these issues. I get to work on other stuff to that that that only Isaac tray Dennis can do.

I absolutely, I had the opportunity to sit on a panel with a gentleman named Dr. John Powers. Unfortunately, he has since passed away, but he would tell the story of how he had sent his dental assistant to become a dental therapist.

He just wanted to service his community more and he said he really wasn't interested in her making a ton of money for the practice. He just wanted to be able to service his community. He had high population of people on public assistance and there was no one else was willing to see those patients and he couldn't see as many as he wanted and he said at the end of the first year, first full year she had worked. She had made the practice $20,000 to pay all her expenses paid her assistant all her benefits and he was thrilled with that. And one thing he hadn't anticipated though was. She was able to do more implants that year than any other year previous and more reckoned outside here and as a result practice made $200,000 more, and these are patients that are widely public assistance patient, so for him. He was able to really build that private piece to really help support the public peace. In his case it financially and hematoxylin so much about how you can help you conserve the public and still make a dollar in the brief time we have left. North Carolina is just starting to talk about this business makes sense should should they follow through and try to make dental therapy part of the scope of practice.

I think that any state that has areas where there are members of your of your population struggling to get access to dental care. This can do nothing but being bring pot positive results to tear state to communities so you know if I had my down there is every single state in the union would have dental therapists allowed to practice course Archuleta needs to look at what's best for North Carolina but I suspect if it's like many of the states those rural areas really struggle to even get dentists and dental therapy can help bring access to care for those those people I think China needs to look at it seriously. Chris Joe Fogarty is a dental therapist in Minnesota and was the first advanced dental therapist thinks of what you're doing thank you for having me a lot more on Carolina Journal radio just if you love freedom we got great news to share with you now. You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups across North Carolina all in one place North Carolina it's one stop shopping for North Carolina's freedom movement and North Carolina You'll find links to John Locke foundation blogs on the days news Carolina reporting and quick takes Carolina Journal radio interviews TV interviews featuring CJ reporters and Locke foundation analysts, opinion pieces and reports on higher education from the James G. Martin Center for academic renewal, commentary and polling data from the scimitar's Institute and news and views from the North Carolina family policy Council.

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It's that easy. So now not only will you enjoy what you buy. You also support freedom. Don't forget log on to today, something nice and help defend freedom, help support the John Mott foundation will go back to Carolina Journal radio why Michiko got is the North Carolina state budget impasse continues Republican legislative leaders want to send some money back to taxpayers state house speaker Tim Moore explains right now are currently sitting with 500 x 900,000,000 dollars surplus while we operated on last year's budget level that we have a question. That is what to do with this money in my experience. You spend the money better government. Taxpayers spend this money better care of their homes and family services people sent more money than the government budget the governor will not work with us to appropriate surplus that we now propose to send that surplus back to the people who work.

This is consistent with our successful approach to form this entire priorities are have a record of results. We will maintain our proven approach.

Because benefiting North Carolina families of his state Senate leader Phil Berger offers more details about the new tax refund plan more money to the government forces who will wish to send that money but they were losing the taxpayer refund every taxpayer. Carolina will receive a check in the amount but can save taxes up to a maximum of one $25 for an individual or $250 for call now living like a couple points.

Foundation tax revenues don't belong efficient bureaucracy of government programming will be the expectation was tax revenues belong to the people who burned you the people we collected from them first turning their money to say politicians and liberal interest groups is one of us who this money should be spent on education program. We have passed a budget that commits $4.4 billion. We have passed a budget for the seventh consecutive budget so continues the lower tuition through instant problems and the budget funds countless older priorities governor has chosen to block funding over his Medicaid were nothing but trash views of the canal it is back to the people who are under terms of the plan from Berger and more taxpayers could see refund checks later in the fall will return with more Carolina Journal radio where doubling down on freedom at Carolina Journal radio were proud to bring you stories that impact your life and your wallet. And now get twice as much freedom when you also listen to our podcast headlock available on iTunes Locke is a little bit different. It's a no holds barred discussion that challenges softheaded ideas from the left and the right light Carolina Journal radio headlock is smart and timely but with headlock you'll hear more about the culture wars get some more humor as well.

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Listen to Carolina Journal radio each week and listen to headlock to remember, you can listen to or subscriber download each week iTunes Carolina Journal radio and headlock just what you need to stay informed and stay entertained both brought to you in the name of freedom by the John Locke foundation of Qubec Carolina Journal radio why Michiko got what role should classical liberals play in promoting the American economic system. John Allison address that question during a recent speech to the group. Classical liberals in the Carolinas. Allison is a former BB&T Bank chairman. He went on to lead the libertarian Cato Institute.

Allison explained why classical liberals do not face an easy task. The bad news is were outnumbered by the pin valve in the one good news is we have the right and ideas matter, and I think that's what gives me small Allison focused on the importance of people. There's only one true for resource that is a human thousand years ago, always useless to people always useless today.

It would beer somebody invented a rare minerals know that until somebody invented microchips human mind is the source of all productivity is our only three key pillars of my human mind.

All you knowledge comes from education context.

Education is absolutely critical to our will. And I think that poses an interesting town we call you objectively look at our public school system to quick. I will buy you, right typically fail for low income kids, so every body relative also do not believe that the public school public school for about 25 years to be new to anyone. But this is Allison sees a need to change the way young people or educate the single most important thing we can do is to agree that we can influence think we have a government run when Napoli that is good for you is going to fail faster is he is trying to accelerate. Believe it or Sam Walton using Bill Gates and Steve Jobs out there revolutionize education if we had a truly competitive environment where they didn't have to compete with government subsidies for competitors or any private business that is purified against opportunities.

I think it would change the quality like anything productivity depends on more than just education. The second pillar of productivity of God being suited to produce incentive could be financial markets work can also be psychological and All-Pro everybody is speaking of one for snail and is interesting how many students consider business, dirt went right, and I think that nonprint think we lose a lot of people view business is not unethical, not ethical believe that business is noble businesses in the act, the we create products and services improve the quality of life.

Primary difference in quality like buying a better business.

Business is no more. Some of these, they're going to work for sure will but is not born of my observation that produces a whole lot are what businesses in the production and I think that's important. No think we should really read noble active that's John Allison former BB&T bank executive and leader of the libertarian Cato Institute. In addition to education and incentives. There's another key factor in productivity third pillar you have to be fat reproductive that will be invited yet.

Think of yourself to pursue your true somebody makes you act like 2+2 is five. You literally cannot. Many government rules and regulations make people act like. In addition, all human progress by definition is based on innovation and creativity unless somebody does something better which will be looking up rocks created these only possible that no words are so important, I think we are the offenders of ongoing ownership is an engineer's internment readout without literally no wrong, and what characterizes on the first experiment in FL markets every Google Earth 10,000 fail Google for every Walmart is 100,000 will Walmart. That's why thousand education will work because will be experiments. Some of so much better out. Allison had more to say about entrepreneurs. If you think about the other characteristics are outbox as a biker I got to be a walk along it was always always had a different view saw things that other people know most likely they will also open that really matter when I speak or call us to talk about enough when I was in college, somebody will listen all abilities and has be available in your lifetime, and almost everybody in America maybe 200 years.

You can only have those in the pursue things that a lot of people think, or Christ, that a lot of people think liberty is not just nice, it is essential for human will and classical liberals. We are primarily defenders of liberty. Allison summed up his points about human productivity, education, knowledge, incentives, liberty, or essential for human natural resource we have called human what kind of political economic environment make those activities possible, I would always one based on individual liberty, free markets and limited government's what Adam Smith, individual liberty, free markets and limited government. What's interesting we have an experiment going on a long and we know the outcome. We know the societies that incorporate those principles have far better outcomes.

We know that even when societies move just the way principal outcomes are pretty dramatic like what happened in India and China. We know these principles work with ironic of course. Somehow, someway is percentage of people in the United States had figured out that they were and they talk about being social is really what they're talking about. Allison pointed to the benefits of capitalism everything that matters is better than it is every reason is we are in the best match life expectancy globally been going up like this. Per capita income going up like free for women. The Dodge caliber going out violence on the point of this phone is right. You would never know it phenomenally good. Thanks to Bike the Freemark was a miraculous invention, that's John Allison former BB&T bank executive and former leader of the libertarian Cato Institute. He delivered these remarks in Winston-Salem to the group.

Classical liberals in the Carolinas will return with more Carolina journal radio real influence. You either have it or you don't and at the John Mott foundation we have it, you'll find our guiding principles in many of the freedom forward reforms of the past decade here in North Carolina. So while others talk or complain or name call. We provide research solutions and hope our team analyzes the pressing issues of the day jobs, healthcare, education, and more. When you look for effective ways to give you more freedom, more options, more control over your life.

Our goal is to transform North Carolina into a growing, thriving economic powerhouse, the envy of every other state research is how policymakers make decisions that ensure you keep more of what you are. Expand your choice of schools for your kids. Widen your job opportunities improve your access to doctors. The recipe for stability and a bright future for truth for freedom for the future of North Carolina. We are the John Locke foundation. Welcome back to Carolina journal radio I'm Donna Martinez. When a person is arrested and charged with a crime in North Carolina, a magistrate or judge decides what should happen to that person until the trial. Should that person be released on bail or kept in jail.

It's a tricky question with some advocates supporting the idea of using technology to help assess the defendants risk to the public versus going with the judges got feeling John is a is director of legal studies for the John Lott foundation. He recently wrote about this debate over what's called risk assessment tools joins us now to talk about it John, welcome back to the show that you are interested in this subject. Well I saw this letter. This open letter that was published by a group of academics, most of them from Harvard, MIT, one or two from Columbia water to from the West Coast ethics, care for, but mostly from Harvard and MIT really criticizing the use of these so-called risk assessment tools user computer programs that help the judge assess the likelihood that a criminal defendant is good Don did not appear at trial, or perhaps commit another crime while there is if they're not held until trial. These academics believe that this is a bad approach. They think it's inherently unfair and they don't want to see any courts using these tools. What is the tool based its assessment on what is actually several of them around, but I think the one with most, using only one am aware that were using here in North Carolina bases their assessment on prior convictions, whether or not the person is employed, what, where, was about to have a fixed place of abode whether they have family there. Things like that that sounds like it is an attempt to be fair and to take may be some subjectivity out of the decision as to whether someone sits in jail or is allowed to post bail to get why there's no question in my mind that the people who develop these tools and the people who were using them mostly really brother experimental basis. All are well motivated. That's exactly what they want they want to be fair, the problem that they're addressing here is a serious and it's a real problem when somebody's arrested and they appear before a judge or magistrate is already probable cause to believe is committed at least one crime and so is reasonable to worry about whether or not they're going to appear at trial if you release him is also reasonable to worry about was about to go to commit more crimes on between the time of the rest of the time of trial.

On the other hand, in this country we have the presumption of innocence.

Those people are presumed to be innocent until they've been convicted by a jury of their peers so we know what it's not fair to hold and we have due process you know you you can't deprive somebody there. Liberty without due process of law. So, on top of all that it's expensive holding people in jail until trial costs a state money cost taxpayers money is terrible for those people they can lose their jobs they can. It could disrupt their family relationships so it makes sense and all kinds of ways not to hold anybody unless it is a very good reason. But on the other hand, sometimes there is a good reason. So it's a tough decision and judges the registers have to make that decision over and over again every day without much information without much time. The idea of developing tools to help makes a lot of sense. Well, it sounds like it makes sense. So why would the critics to be concerned about the types of data that is going into the assessment tool. Well they make a lot of criticisms of this letter, some which don't even apply to many of the risk assessment tools user North Carolina but I think their major concern is this even with the use of these risk assessment tools, we see racial disparities in the outcomes. That is to say a disproportionate number of after the Americans being held until trial compared to some other racial ethnic groups. That's what they don't like and they blame this on what they considered bias, but it isn't really bias in the way we usually use that word. The problem is that when you look at things like employment.

You look at things like prior arrest history. There is disparities there and unless we can get rid of those disparities. Any kind of affair source of the treats everybody parsley is going to be disparities. So really the question becomes, when did the disparity originate why and why. So that was that the view of the critics of this tool. These academics release this letter. Then, in response, there were three North Carolina academics who responded. Tell us about that. Well, this is the kind of thing I love to see if I see it all the time when people in some parts of the country get really worked up self-righteous moral indignation people, north Carolina, often take a step back and calmly point out what's poor reasonable and that's what we see here so Brenda Garrett at Duke and his colleague Cynthia Rudin, also a professor and CSU Sarah Demaray. She's an expert on these on these risk assessment Toshiba working with this for years. Brandon is a criminal justice expert at Duke Law school and Cynthia is a computer scientist at Duke. They just pointed out that this be sensible here.

Let's not just run to some extreme there's problems with the pretrial system as it stands, nobody disagrees with that. It certainly doesn't rule out rule out out of hand. The use of computer tools to help make this process better and more fair and they pointed out some of the specific claims that the critics make that were true, but more importantly, the point of things like this. If you're worried about bias of the system got eliminated by eliminating computer-aided tools. What a judge or a master is looking at a criminal defendant judge or magistrate knows what race a criminal defendant is if there's bias to get rid of it by eliminating these tools. On the contrary, these tools at least provide some kind of objectivity.

John you are an attorney yourself and so you have had a lot of contact over the years, and one where another with the legal and criminal justice system in North Carolina where you come down on this.

I think these tools are worth exploring. We should be tried and we should be I think is really is a good idea to see what we can do to improve our pretrial system.

We don't want people being held unnecessarily. But we don't want people out there putting the public at risk either anything we could do to try to make that system work better work matters worse. Try as long as we just don't do it blithely. We have to constantly evaluate how well it's working afterward. Try while we tried. Now there's been a lot of writing. You've done some and others have have done some as well on this question.

It seems to me across ideological and political lines about the issue of a free society, and what happens when someone has been alleged to have committed a crime, but they have not been convicted of a crime and so they are innocent until proven guilty, but yet there are some people who may not have the financial resources to post bail to to get out until their trial and may end up sitting in jail simply because they didn't have the money we address that in a free society will that's think that's the hundred dollar question of the hundred thousand dollar question here. Nobody has a really good answer. There's money. Bail was originally instituted as a way to avoid people being forced to stay in jail. From the time the rest until time to face trial. So there were some good motivations there, but their problems with money billing you pointed out the most important one, which is that some people can afford to post bail that others can't. As a result. Sometimes you get people who can post bail to go out and they do commit another crime so we don't want to have that happen if somebody's risk to the public. They should be held regardless of how wealthy they are. Well it is a fascinating subject is getting a lot of attention again from the left to the center to the right over issues of criminal justice reform bail, etc. in this issue of risk assessment tools is now becoming more prominent as well.

It's the subject of an analysis by our guest John Gazette. You can find to headline on the piece. The debate over risk assessment tools in pretrial attention. Thanks for joining us for that's all the time we have for the show this week.

Thank you for listening on behalf of my cohost Mitch Kovach Martinez hope you'll join us again next week for another edition of Carolina internal radio Carolina Journal radio is a program of the John Locke foundation to learn more about the John Locke foundation donations that support programs like Carolina Journal radio send email to development John Locke.or call 1866 jail left info 166553466 Carolina Journal radio is the John line foundation, Carolina's free-market think tank and Carolina broadcasting system, Inc. all opinions expressed on this program are solely those did not merely reflect the station.

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