The Christmas Parade Tragedy in Wisconsin, and a Major Breakthrough Helping Those with Unwanted Same-Sex Attractions

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. So what do we make of the terrible tragedy in Wisconsin last night?

Where's God in the midst of tragedy? And with this, we've got some good news for you as well today. It's time for The Line of Fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry. Get into The Line of Fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks, friends, for joining us on The Line of Fire today, where we serve as your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity.

We want to do our best to look to God, to look to his word, whatever is happening in the world around us and infuse you with faith, truth and courage so you can stand strong for the Lord. Welcome to today's show. 866-34-TRUTH is the number to call. Let me tell you what's coming today and God willing tomorrow. I had planned today on addressing the not guilty verdict in the Kyle Rittenhouse case. I mentioned it on Friday in passing when it happened in the midst of our Q&A show. I want to devote the entire broadcast tomorrow to that subject. I want to talk honestly about charges of white privilege, white supremacy.

I want to talk about what I believe is very dangerous rhetoric in the country today. And I want to get your feedback. So by all means, if you're able to tune in tomorrow, tune in.

And if you're able to call in, by all means, call in. Because I want to hear different perspectives. I want to lay out plainly and clearly what I think, what I understand. I want to do my best to unite us around truth rather than to divide us over secondary issues. But in order to do that, we have to hear one another. We have to listen to one another. We have to speak candidly.

So we may have areas of disagreement, which is fine. Let us come in the fear of God and the love of God and talk candidly. Now, I was going to be addressing that at the beginning of the show today with the tragic event that took place last night, the driver of an SUV plowing into the crowd in Waukesha, Wisconsin, about 55 miles outside of Kenosha. When I was writing an article about this last night, in fact, you can read the article on the stream, stream.org, where was God when this was happening, and you'll find some words of comfort and truth and hope in the midst of this. So when I was writing things last night, there was just talk of multiple fatalities and then about a dozen people transported to hospitals and then men, women, children. As of today, the numbers are at five dead and 40 injured.

When I was writing last night, let's see if the article just got updated by the editors. Yeah, sorry, 11 adults, 12 children. That was reported last night and multiple fatalities. Again, now the numbers put higher. Children, one group hit was the dancing grannies.

These grandmothers that do dance routines at special events and things like that. So this is for Christmas, utterly senseless. And we don't have all the details. The suspect, the driver, is in custody.

And so I haven't heard much about the identity of the driver. It's something we'll come back to. It's something we'll come back to about the identity of the driver and some of today's media, because please hear me, friends. This is a time when we cannot allow secular media, be it left or right, to divide us. This is a time when we cannot allow political controversies to divide us. This is a time when we must unite around truth and walk in love, because the nation is being torn apart by all kinds of divisions and many of them are manufactured, many of them manufactured. In other words, things are being blown out of proportion, things that do not exist are being imported as if they did exist. Mistrust is building and with it we tend to be like ships passing in the night. I'm not going to do that.

I'm not going to let that happen on this broadcast. I'm going to do my best to not push buttons, to inflame this side or that side, but to expose when that's being done so that we can have an honest conversation. Are you with me? Especially if you identify as a follower of Jesus. I'm not excluding others. By all means, let us do our best, all of us, to unite around truth. But especially if we claim to be followers of Jesus, then let us listen with love toward one another.

And if we differ, let us speak the truth in love. It is really easy to make inflammatory comments and to to get all types of responses and to build up your base. And especially if you're a public commentator, as I am, then controversy sells. My goal is not to sell anything in that respect. My goal is not to get more people listening or watching or reading.

My goal is to minister truth and to speak it and stand on it, whatever the consequences may be. And that means over the years that I'm probably going to offend you here and there and you're going to offend me here and there. But we're going to determine not to get offended because we're going to talk to each other. I'm going to listen to each other. We're going to respect each other, even when we differ. That isn't that what mature people do, isn't it? And isn't that what America needs more of now?

OK, so you know, some of some of the quotes, let me just read some of this Daily Mail reported. Kari Montejo, Waukesha School District board member, told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel that his daughter's dance team was hit by the SUV. They were pom poms and shoes and spilled hot chocolate everywhere. I had to go from one crumpled body to the other to find my daughter. My wife and two daughters were almost hit.

Please pray for everybody. Please press a Christmas parade in small town America. People out at night and having fun and doing community stuff. I mean, there are parents who weren't even physically there with their children because this community and different parents with different kids. Where my kids were calling and looking. And about this one entry in the parade, the Milwaukee Dancing Grannies posted on its Facebook page that members of the group and volunteers were impacted and we were waiting for word on their conditions. Here's here's the local police officer describing it. There were small children laying all over the road. There were police officers and EMTs doing CPR on multiple members of the parade. I I can't imagine that.

Our oldest daughter and her husband both trained EMTs and have been and our son in law, Fireman, now our grandson of Fireman as well, they have they have been at many horrific scenes and they have seen all kinds of tragedies and car accidents and just desperate situations. One like this, it's got to be even more shocking because so many people impacted. So, you know, people wonder what's Christmas parade and how can God let this happen, but friends, every moment of every day, God lets things happen. I do not hold to a theology friends that says that God ordained that last night that this happened because God ordained it. That is not what I understand scripture to say. I do not believe the God of the Bible ordains everything that happens. He brings judgment.

Yes, for sure. He says he kills and makes alive, but he doesn't murder. This was murder. What happened last night, according to everything we know, willful, intentional, this was murder. And God does not murder. You say, well, if he does it, it's not murder.

Well, if it is an innocent life being taken, it's murder. I do not believe God did this. Why do these things happen? Why does God let things happen?

When a serial rapist kidnaps a little girl, rapes her, suffocates her, buries her. I don't believe God ordained him to do that. He was sinning against Almighty God. He was going against the revealed will of God. I don't believe the secret will of God goes against the revealed will of God. God is in harmony and who he is as a God of truth. And a Calvinist might explain things in a more nuanced way, but with all respect to my Calvinist friends, I'm not a Calvinist. Yes, there is disaster that God brings.

That is true. There is disaster that God brings and he brings it in judgment. He does those things and he takes responsibility for those things as righteous acts of judgment. At the same time, God distances himself from human sin. When the Israelites were burning babies in the fire, when the Israelites were doing that, God said, I never intended this for you. This is absolutely not my will.

I've got nothing to do with this. It is apparent to me. But every moment of every day, please understand this. Every moment of every day, human beings commit atrocities, and God allows it to happen in the midst of human sin and human disobedience. God is carrying out his will in the midst of here's a mother abusing her little child at home.

Here's a father beating the wife. He allows it to happen. He allows dictators to carry out monstrous events. He allows us to make choices. And in the midst of human evil and sin and good choices, human beings make, God is carrying out his will in the midst of it. He is carrying out his purpose, which is ultimately a purpose of redemption and ultimately a purpose of blessing and ultimately a purpose of love. But we have to come to grips with the fact that God has created a world where there is free choice.

Love cannot be coerced. And what we all prize more than anything else. First is our existence, right? That's why only a tiny percentage of people kill themselves because they want to be alive. They want to be alive. So they choose to go through hardship, pain, difficulty. But we prize more than anything. Number one is our existence, correct?

And then our freedom. If I say, OK, God will create a world and create us as human beings in his own image. But we have no choice.

He's going to press a button, basically. And out of the womb, we will only have certain desires, only do certain things. You say, but then it's not really me. There is no freedom. I was just programmed a certain way. And I'm not saying Calvinists believe that God just programs people.

That would be a crass way of saying it. What I am saying is that he created a world to give us existence, to give us freedom, which is what we prize more than anything else. Our existence and our freedom, self autonomy, the right to determine our destiny, that means that horrible things like last night can take place. But it doesn't mean that God is passive or he's sitting by wishing things would be different. God is at work in the midst, the pain and the tragedy. May God's grace and comfort be with the bereaved and families of the injured and the injured, what an absolutely horrific time. May God's grace be there.

We'll be right back. It's The Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Friends, at the bottom of the hour, I'm going to be doing a very, very important interview with Dr. Joseph Nicolosi Jr. It's going to be eye opening.

It is going to go against the grain of a lot of what society is saying. It's very important. It's going to be very encouraging. So make sure to stay tuned, especially those who've wrestled with unwanted same sex attraction, those who have have struggled in these areas or gender identity issues. I think you're going to find it really helpful. We had this previously scheduled and word went out about the interview. So despite everything happening in the world around us, we are going to focus on that. It's a mega important topic. And then tomorrow, God willing, we're going to talk at length about the verdict in the Kyle Rittenhouse trial, the reaction to it and what are some takeaways and what can we do as the Lord's body to come together and move forward and bring healing.

So that's that's what we've got going. OK, let me share some scriptures with you. These are all in my article that I wrote last night. Where was God when the SUV plowed into grandmothers and children? So scripture shows us God caring about our suffering. Judges 10 16 after Israel came under judgment because of its idolatry. So Israel comes under judgment because of sin. Israel repents in serving the Lord.

What does it say? God could bear Israel's misery no longer. That that he was pained by the sufferings of his people.

Exodus 2, 23 to 25, the people of Israel are languishing as slaves in Egypt. The Israelites were groaning under the bondage and cried out. And their cry for help from the bondage rose up to God. God heard their mourning and God remembered his covenant with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, God looked upon the Israelites and God took notice about them. So he's not indifferent to human suffering. The cries, the pain from last night rose up to the throne of God. The mourning and the wailing and the shock and grief today that that goes up to the throne of God.

How about this? The prophet Isaiah, speaking of the Lord's relationship with Israel through history, Isaiah 63 9. In all their affliction, he was afflicted. And the angel of his presence saved them. In his love and in his pity, he redeemed them. And he bore them and carried them all the days of old.

Notice the beginning of that. In all their affliction, he was afflicted. So why doesn't he just do something? Well, to just do something and stop all human suffering, he would have to stop all humanity. That would be the end of the human race right there. End of subject. Because as long as we're here on this earth making choices, then there's going to be suffering, there's going to be pain. You say, but what about little kid dies of leukemia?

What did they do? It's the fruit of sin entering the world. So it's a fallen world. So an innocent child can be smitten. But remember, Jesus did not go about demonstrating the love of the Father by going up to healthy people and making them sick is a sign of God's love. And he says, if you've seen me, you've seen the Father.

I can only do what I see the Father doing. He was the will of God in living color, in the flesh, in action. And what does it say in Acts 10 38 as Peter's describing his mission? God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed of the devil. So God enters into our suffering. In fact, look at what it says about Jesus in Isaiah 53 3. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows.

He rose and acquainted with grief or intimately acquainted with sickness and pain. So God addresses this by coming into our world. In the form of a son and taking our sin on his own shoulders and dying in our place that we could have life rather than just destroying the whole world. So what does Hebrews tell us? We do not have a high priest who's unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who is in every respect, one who in every respect has been tempted as we are yet without sin.

Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. He doesn't stop the evil things from happening. But he reaches out his hand of grace, he comes into our world and suffers with us, and he brings a path of redemption in hopes that everything Satan means for evil can also be used for good.

Only God can do that. I can't look at a situation last night and see any good coming out of it, any redemption coming out of it in the natural. It's just tragedy and pain and darkness. And many people will not recover from this for life. They lose a child like this and it scars them for life. They sustained a life-altering injury. Someone taken in the prime of life, whoever the victims were, those around them, many times never recover. Sometimes a husband and wife lose a child and the marriage falls apart. It's just too much pain, too much grief.

Each time they see each other, it's a reminder of the pain. But God can bring light out of darkness and get out of evil. And that's what he will be doing in the days ahead. And if things are not made right in this world, he makes them right in the world to come for his people. This is not a passive answer. It's reality. Let me share with you something C.S.

Lewis said. And I have this in my book, Has God Failed You? If you're going through your own test of faith, I really strongly encourage you to get the book Has God Failed You? It will really help as you study, as you read it.

I think it'll really meet you. If you know those that have lost their faith, you'll find it really helpful. Has God failed you?

You're finding faith when you're not even sure God is real. So I have these quotes in here and some of them I used in my debate with Professor Bart Ehrman about 10 years ago. Does the Bible provide an adequate answer to the problem of suffering?

Listen to what C.S. Lewis said. Try to exclude the possibility of suffering, which the order of nature and the existence of free wills involve. And you find that you've excluded life itself. He said, OK, so we're going to have a world with no suffering in this world. Before we get into the eternal age, if you exclude suffering, basically excluding life itself. He said, free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having.

A world of automata, of creatures that work like machines, would hardly be worth creating. So this is the consequence of our freedom. And God set things up like this. You say, well, what about the world to come? Will there be freedom there? We will have made our choice to live for God. Well, we have made our choice. Lord, we want to serve you and love you. We don't want to sin. We don't want to do evil. We've made our choice.

We've given our lives over to you. And now his eternal will will be done where our choice is to do good and there will be no suffering because there's no sin, there's no devil, there's no fallen world. But here in this crucible, this is where we grow. This is where we learn to trust God by faith. This is where mercy is poured out. This is where, even when we don't have an answer, we encounter God. And that I'd agree with my Calvinist friends that ultimately when we see God, we worship him and we don't have questions because he is God. When we take hold of that, everything falls into place.

You know, I, I use this illustration. Imagine you're a devout Christian living in Haiti when a terrible earthquake hits decimating your city. Thousands have been killed, thousands more missing, many of them buried in the rubble. All electricity is out.

The water system is polluted. The city is plunged into chaos. But you survive. So immediately you join a rescue team trying to dig people out of the debris. Your heart's bursting as you dig, forcing you to cry out, Jesus, where are you? How could you let this happen?

Don't you care? Into your shock, you look to your right. There he is. It's Jesus. He's on his knees digging through the rubble as well, his hands torn and bleeding, his tears poured down his cheeks.

At that moment, you say to yourself. I don't know why he didn't stop this, and I have no idea who or what caused this earthquake, but I can't blame Jesus. It's obvious that he cares, too. So it's in that same spirit that Pastor Tim Keller wrote. If we again ask the question, why does God allow evil and suffering to continue and we look at the cross, we still don't know what the answer is. However, we know what the answer isn't. It can't be that he doesn't love us. It can't be that he is indifferent or detached from our condition. God takes our misery and suffering so seriously that he was willing to take it on himself.

As John Stott said, I could never myself believe in God if it were not for the cross. So at a time of pain, maybe your own tragedy you're living through, maybe later today or tomorrow, you're going to be burying a loved one or going to a funeral service, maybe it's the agony of an ongoing sickness and chronic pain. And you've been prayed for and prayed for. You believe in healing and it hasn't come. Maybe it's a terrible tragedy from your past and an event like this that happened in Wisconsin that somehow opens up wounds again. Look to the cross and there you find love poured out and there you find God's answer saying, I got involved in your world to save you from sin.

If you put your trust in me, I'll carry you through. So may God's grace and mercy be on those suffering in Wisconsin and beyond. And we'll talk about what happened to the driver.

A lot of issues that are very inflammatory. We will talk about them tomorrow in the most redemptive way that we can doing our best to give insight, doing our best to say, hey, let's look to the Lord. May he bring comfort, grace. May he bring truth. All right, friends, we're going to be right back with Dr. Joseph Nicolosi, Jr. Don't miss this interview. Stay right here. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. We are trying to connect with Dr. Joseph Nicolosi, Jr. for a very important interview. I know he sent out news to thousands of people on his email list that he'd be joining me today at this time, so hopefully we will connect with him momentarily. And I just emailed him saying, call us, call us. So not sure what's going on.

Hopefully we'll be able to connect soon. There's some major news that we do want to share with you and you'll be able to call and speak with him at 866-34-TRUTH. Let me step back and give a little background. And here we go. OK, hang on.

We have we have successfully connected. There we go. So let me just give you a quick bio and then tell you what we're going to be talking about. So Dr. Joseph Nicolosi, Jr. holds a Ph.D. from Chicago School of Professional Psychology. He's the founder of the Reintegrative Therapy Association, a licensed clinical psychologist, researcher and author of multiple peer reviewed journal articles. I only got to hang out one time with his super well-known father, who is a pioneer in counseling men with unwanted same sex attractions counsel of can't imagine how many probably thousands over a period of years, and many did find lasting help, lasting change. But there's so much pushback against this that that Dr. Nicolosi, Sr.'s books, he passed away a few years back. His books have been removed from Amazon.

You can't buy them there where he just lays out clinical data and research and his own counsel and what he's seen. And now some major breakthroughs are taking place of great importance. And that's why we're speaking with with Dr. Joseph Nicolosi, Jr. today. Hey, welcome back to the line of fire. Thanks for joining us today.

Thank you for having me. So before we get into a major new study that's been released and a YouTube video that you have some other information, what was it like as you grew up, you developed similar interests to your dad. Did you grow up in an environment where there was a lot of discussion in the household, a lot of interaction about life issues? What was it like growing up with a man like Dr. Nicolosi, Sr.? I think I was probably the only high schooler who knew psychoanalytic terms, and I would hear him over the dinner table. And yeah, I think I kind of got a head knowledge of it growing up.

But it was really ultimately later on meeting these clients, hearing their stories and their transformation that really got me the most involved. And how did your dad get interested in this? He was a Catholic, but he's not a religious fundamentalist hitting people over the head with a Bible. How did he get involved in counseling men with same sex attraction? So he was in charge of psychological assessment at St. John's Seminary in the late 70s, early 80s. And his job was to screen out priests psychologically, the individuals who want to join the priesthood. And so he would find a lot of these guys had a lot of psychological difficulties.

He would tell the seminaries about this, and then the seminaries would go ahead and accept these priests anyway into the priesthood, and many of them had same sex attraction. And he would get to know them, talk with them, and he began to notice some patterns over time. And the basic common threads he would notice over time was that these men would often report distant, detached relationships with their fathers, and alternating between detached and critical. Mothers who were higher anxiety, sometimes over-involved and intrusive, and the sons themselves were temperamentally sensitive.

And if there was an older brother, it was usually a feared, hostile relationship with the older brother. And when you put these factors together, my father believed this would create difficulty in the individual gaining a sense of gender completeness in himself. And according to the psychoanalytic theory, it goes through different developmental stages, and around two and a half years of age is the first time where the boy has the additional developmental task that the girl doesn't have, which is to disidentify from the mother and identify with the father.

That's the boy's extra developmental task. And in homes where this dynamic is taking place, where it can make it more difficult for the boy to make that shift, and the boy will try to reach out to the father, experience difficulty in bonding and identifying with the father, he'll retreat back to the mother and not make that gender identity shift. And as these men get older, females are their closest friends.

They know them like the back of their hands. Men feel mysterious and different. And this young boy, as he gets older and late in early adolescence, he develops a longing for male attention, affection, approval, which eventually becomes sexualized. And the boy will often try to put these thoughts out of his mind. He'll try to ignore them.

He'll try to pray that they go away. But nevertheless, these feelings persist and they become sexualized increasingly over time. And these men now live in a culture that tells them that if you have these attractions, gay is who you are, it's your identity, it's who you'll always be. And on one hand, the gay label brings relief. It brings a sense of like, oh, there's a name for this. But on the other hand, the gay label limits these men to and puts them in a particular box and sequesters them away from the general world of men. And so many of these clients have had a longing for attention, affection, approval. They come to my father and what my father began to notice is that when these men grew in their and deepening in their male connections, that they would report spontaneously that their same sex attractions began decreasing.

And so that was my father's story. That's what he noticed. And he wrote several books about that and developed a theory.

So why why is it such a threat? I mean, here he's a psychologist. He's a trained professional. People are coming to him wanting help.

It's not some kid that's been kidnapped and and hidden a closet and is going to be deprogrammed of his gayness or some horror story like that. These are these are grown men. These are people saying I want help or maybe a family coming with a minor saying I want help.

And he's offering this and trying to get to the roots of things. So they feel I was born this way. But as it begins to unpack it, it begins to make sense. And now they feel better psychologically. They're happier in life.

Some see a real change in diminishing and same sex attractions, etc. So as many good outcomes, why does books get banned? Why is this such a threat? The I think the term for this is tragic comic part tragedy and part comedy. It's so preposterous, the book banning.

It's like it's hard not to laugh. Basically, the books were banned because an individual, an LGBT activist, wanted people to not find out if they said it's, quote, hate speech. So he went online, created a petition, got people to sign it, got, I don't know, a large number of people to sign it, sent it to Amazon. Amazon agreed and banned the books, and then after it was all over during an interview, this young man was asked about his impetus for banning the books, and then he admitted he'd never even read the books to begin with. He was simply offended by their title. And so that was enough to ban the speech. I mean, talk about judging a book by its title, by its cover. So, yeah, I mean, Amazon really banned these things and these books and they're trying to ban the message and it says it says a lot. You know, when you're getting banned these days, it usually means you're doing something right, right?

Amazon. Yeah. So so and there's a lawsuit you're involved. There's there's a lot that we want to talk about. But it's so important for everyone to to have the background here, because you hear this word, quote, conversion therapy. And it's basically, well, giving men shock treatments, have them look at a picture of a man and shock them.

And and that's what they're doing. And they're kidnapping kids and bring them to these reeducation camps and we need to ban this. So state after state is banning professional help for minors that want help with on one of the same sex attraction or gender identity issues. California almost banned it for people of any age.

Whole countries are coming out with these bans. So there is this demonizing of something, quote, called conversion therapy. Whereas what you're talking about, what your dad talked about, you use the term reintegrative therapy. And there's now a major study in the Journal of Human Sexuality that says this is actually very helpful and it's clinically demonstrated. So what I've been talking about through the power of the gospel and seeing people transformed, but simply through psychological principles. So what's happened with this new study? What's the importance of this?

So the study is a large scale. Yeah. Can you hear me?

Can you hear me? All right. Somehow we seem to have lost a signal. So did we lose our call or did we lose our entire signal and connection? That's OK. Looks like our caller.

OK, we will reconnect. I was just asking my big question. So there is a there's a new article that's come out.

Your interests. So this would be the mantra. You're going to have somebody who who got got hurt, went for counseling, wanted to change, couldn't change now they're frustrated, they're hurt. And by the way, there is no 100 percent perfect result with any any counseling, anything whatsoever. Right. But yeah, not sure how we we lost contact there.

But we've got a few minutes before the first break. Tell us about the significance of this this new study released in the Journal of Human Sexuality. So, doctor, here's the basic summary.

A large scale longitudinal study found with 75 participants, 75 men. If you fail them, it feels in their experience as if he's not really there, or if he is there, he's indifferent or if he is there, they're doing something wrong or he's got something against them or there's just more to the story than what we're being told, but it feels to people as if he failed, as if something is fundamentally wrong or someone concluded he's obviously not there. When I recently recorded a debate with an atheist debate that should start airing on awakening TV, probably next to help and they end up drinking more or getting heavy. Well, everyone does their best to to counsel and provide help.

You can't guarantee perfect results. But what's happened now and we'll come back. So, Joseph, somehow our connection got lost. But we are we are reconnected.

We've only got a few seconds before the break. We've got three major things to talk about in the next few minutes. Friends, number one, major new study that's come out in the Journal of Human Sexuality about positive changes that can come through this counseling method, second lawsuit that Joseph has filed.

We've got to talk about that. And then I'm putting up links to a video series. It's just been put up on YouTube where the explanation given as to how people are changing. There are many ex gays, ex lesbians, ex trans people in the church with the help of the gospel.

And there are many just in society in general really changed through positive counseling therapy. We'll be right back. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Welcome back to the line of fire. For any who missed any part of the interview with Dr. Joseph Nicolosi Jr., our intranet, our whole system cut out for a moment. We apologize for that.

But we'll be putting everything out as a separate YouTube video just with the interview so it can be distributed as widely as possible. My apologies, sir, for that break. We thought we had lost you for a minute.

You had lost us is what happened. So I'll ask again the the article now, this new important article. It is, again, professionally written, professionally documented. What's so significant about this? Yeah, so published in the Journal of Human Sexuality and the whole article is free.

It's available online for anyone who wants to read it. They were 75 participants. So it's a large scale longitudinal study. They track these clients over a couple of years and they found that these individuals, these men who did this therapy noticed statistically significant decreases in their homosexual thoughts, feelings, behaviors, statistically significant increase in the heterosexual thoughts, feelings, behaviors and a shift, a significant shift toward a heterosexual identity.

So we're not talking about behavior modification. We're talking about the thoughts, the feelings and even the identity are all shifting. And as well as that, we noticed increased increased improvements in emotional well-being, for example, decreases in anxiety, depression or suicidality.

For example, those things went down. And so we see that these clients are psychologically better off after the therapy. Their sexuality is shifting. And what's perhaps most surprising of all is that the actual method of the therapy is just trauma therapy. That's the kicker. Like we're literally just treating childhood traumas.

We're not doing anything else. In fact, we tell our clients, I tell my own clients, don't try to change your sexuality that could just interfere. Don't try to change anything about yourself. Just resolve early childhood trauma methods using this evidence based approach. And as a spontaneous byproduct, you may notice shifts in your sexuality and sure enough, that's exactly what we're seeing. So getting to the root cause, someone in their own experience, they feel like I was born this way, I've always been like this.

You dig a little deeper, you get to the root cause and everything begins to fall into place. And when you say a large study involving seventy five people, probably most most aren't aware of these types of studies. You know, we have all it's harmful.

It's terrible. All the studies point that direction. And this is bogus. Instead of like this is quite major, quite groundbreaking. It's a major study. The mainstream media are ignoring it. Of course, if the results went in the opposite direction, these people did worse. Then, of course, the media would suddenly be interested because it fits with their narrative. But no, the data is there.

The media are just not bringing that information to the public. And again, these are people that say, hey, I want to explore this with you and they're getting these results. So no one's being coerced. This is people looking for help. Why on earth, Joseph, would the government or any organization tell someone looking for help?

It's illegal for you to get that help. Why why would they do this? That's right. This message goes against the prevailing narrative. It's many see it. Many activists see it as a threat to their narrative. And we're exposing in many ways the hypocrisy of the radical activists of the far left who say we welcome people into the gay community.

But when those same people eventually want to consider leaving, we try to block their options so they can't leave. That's hypocrisy, that's bullying, and that's what the far left is doing. And this is a very important distinction. I believe you've made this distinction on your show in the past.

I listen to your show. So one of the one very important distinction is this is this highlights the difference between classical liberals and the radical left. Classical liberals would say, hey, look, you want to be gay?

You want to be gay? I just don't force anything on anybody and I'm fine with it. The radical left is saying, no, you will go with our agenda. We're going to teach a certain kind of information. We want to be the gatekeepers of what people can hear.

We'll ban books if we have to and we'll ban therapy. And there's that authoritarian feel from the radical left. And and this it highlights really their hypocrisy.

Yeah, that's something that Dennis Prager says time and time again, why he's against the left and he doesn't use the term liberal. And look, we understand that some of the power of the gay activist movement has been it's the new civil rights or President Biden saying trans rights or the human rights issue of the day. So if I'm born this way and I can't change, it's innate and immutable.

And it's so different than skin color or ethnicity. Theoretically, I mean, that's the argument. Whereas if change is possible, that demolishes that whole narrative, doesn't it? That's right. It really destroys the foundation fundamental premise of the entire argument.

All right. So you're involved in a federal lawsuit now. What's that about? Yeah, so we some attorney my attorneys at my request filed a federal lawsuit against the authors of a medical journal article who claimed that reintegrated therapy is harmful, it's a pseudoscience, it doesn't work. And these individuals who are suing are, like many on the left, speaking of the left, they are political activists masquerading as objective science. And they wrote this medical journal article. We sent them the cease and desist. We try to provide them with the scientific information on this topic.

They didn't respond. So we have no choice but to take them to court. And we're going to prove the fact that this therapy is helpful. And on a larger scale, what the lawsuit is really about is that we believe everybody should have access to accurate medical information to help these individuals be able to sue to to be in charge of their own journey without having these political activists try to control the information our clients get access to.

Got it. And I mean, the fact you have to fight for this in court really says everything. And look, again, I could understand if someone had some bad experience or overzealous parents forced a kid into something that we all agree that no one wants to do that, this is all coming willingly and and people looking for help. But where else do we intervene? I mean, you could go to a New Age doctor, right?

He's going to give you crystals or something to heal cancer. And that's perfectly legal. But a 17 year old boy who is who is raped and who struggles with a sexual identity and says, I want I want to get to the root of this, it's illegal for that boy to get counseling.

And again, if if some have their way, it'd be illegal for anyone to get counseling. So the only way this is going to change is if we stand and we stand together on this. Now, on a practical level, because any time I ever talk about these issues from a biblical perspective with God's compassion, say to church service, if I'm asked to do it, there's a line of people coming to me weeping issues, parents, kids, grandkids, all kinds of crises related to LGBT issues, some of the people themselves, some those close to them. So I want to I want to make this as positive and practical as possible.

And I'm putting up links on our Facebook page, just tweeted it out to to a video series that you just released. Who will this help? Because ultimately, you're not here to fight the government. You're here to help people. You're here to give them tangible help. And there's this strange move to try to suppress that.

What's on these video series about reintegrative therapy? Right. It's based upon the fundamental notion that everybody has the right to walk away from sexual practices and experiences that don't work for them and to have support to do so. Every person should be free to choose a life consistent with their values.

And no one, no government, no anybody should bar access to to another person's choice to live consistent with their faith and their values and what works for them. And so the video series is basically showing people it's not an explanation. It's a demonstration of what this actually looks like. This was this this is a step by step broken down of the process that these 75 men went through in the in that study I mentioned earlier. And we show exactly how the process works. And you know, we can't rely on the mainstream media.

They will not present this information. But there are so many individuals who have said that these this process that I'm using or other ones that other therapists are using, they're like it really does lead to a shift in their life. And so we put it on YouTube.

And so until between now and the time YouTube bans it, we encourage people to watch it. Now, certainly you've heard people with spiritual testimonies who've talked about being changed. And maybe God really met them and helped them. But some haven't really dealt with some of the root issues or underlying causes or got further undergirding to their lives and they may fall away. Do you feel it's really important as much as possible that people get to root issues and find healing and direction for the future as opposed to just say, hey, I've been changed, I mean, some can be miraculously changed.

I know that. But you feel it's really important to deal with root issues. Yeah, I mean, this is especially when we talk about sexuality. It's so connected to the root of who we are.

And so, yes, root issues dealing with it. And this has nothing to do with same sex attraction. This is for all human beings. You know, when we're talking about a part of a person's life where their sexuality is going against their value, again, I could show them many ways for many people that usually it's the root issues that need to be looked at what is that person really looking for? What are they hungering for that they're not getting?

What need is it? They're not getting met in other areas of their life. We want to explore what are the dynamics that are the driving factors behind the sexuality?

The sexuality is usually the symptom, but there's something behind it that's going on. And in so many areas of our life and we realize this in ministry, that you get to the root issue and a lack of love or trauma or certain experience or perception, and when that gets fixed, whoa, everything changes. And I'm looking on your reintegrative therapy dot com website at a really helpful chart, conversion therapy versus reintegrative therapy. Friends, there's so much noise in the media and this is only going to increase. It is critically important that we stand with voices like Dr. Nicholasi now from a secular perspective and then those from a Christian perspective offering hope and change.

Joseph, we've got 15 seconds. Where's the best place people should go? Is it reintegrated therapy dot com or somewhere else?

I'd say go to reintegrated therapy dot com. We can answer many of the questions based on the science. We can tell you can see personal testimonies. It's just a gateway to so much of what the media is not telling us. Well, and we've got to get the message out because we care about people.

So, friends, we post it on Facebook, personal page, corporate page, Twitter, links to the YouTube videos. Joseph, keep up the great work. We're standing together with you. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Another program powered by the Truth Network.