Vision Week Radio Special - Part C

Today, we will connect with Skip Heitzig in the studio as we continue Vision Week. In this session, Skip will observe how the Apostle Paul might view politics today, talk about church trends that both encourage and concern him, and Skip will talk about the need for depth, not dazzle in the pulpit. A plea for depth, biblical truth, and exposition. That's really what I do, and I think that's what pastors should do. I think all pastors should be expositors. So I think a lot of them think they are, but they're not. They couldn't even define exposition. They just think it's sort of rattling off ideas on a text.

That is not biblical exposition. And so I think they should learn that, and I think they should do that. Now, let's join Skip Heitzig in studio for a conversation with Chip Lusko on Vision Week. And don't miss the close, as Skip gives some spiritual insight about Lenin and McCartney.

Let's roll. I recall, I'll never forget, Skip, being on the Mount of Olives with you shooting with our crew, and the sun was shining right on the golden dome on the Temple Mount, and you saying, behind us is the most contested piece of real estate in the world. And that's still true today.

It is true. So, yeah, 35 acres called the Temple Mount, Mount Zion, which is now the place where the golden dome of the rock is, but before that, a temple stood there. And I mean, it has been contested. If you just look at it through history, since the temple, then the Romans destroyed the temple. Fast forward to the Crusades coming in and taking over what was the Islamic mosque at the time and putting the Knights Templar there, and then that getting destroyed again by the Muslims, and just generation after generation of fighting. And yet, the Bible says, on that place, in the future, will be a temple, a Jewish temple, once again. And we're, of course, waiting for that to happen, but Jerusalem is a fun place to visit, and you can feel the tension.

You can cut it with a knife. Well, you've walked on the Temple Mount dozens and dozens and dozens of times. I'm not sure everybody in our audience would realize that it's not controlled by the Jews, by Israel. It's been seceded back in the days of Moshe Dayan to the Jordanians. Jordanians, that's right. And when we go up there, they say, you can't take a Bible out.

You can't be seen praying. And I'd like your observation on this. I just saw the news recently that they're considering allowing the Jews to pray openly on the Temple Mount. So things are changing.

That would be monumental. You're right. So the first time I went there was in 1978. Israel was 30 years old as a nation.

It was their 30th anniversary. And I remember going up to the Temple Mount with a Bible, not knowing any of these rules. I was with a friend, Jerry Miller.

We were up there. We opened our Bible. We started praying, and people ran at us and said, close the Bible. And I remember my friend saying, close the Bible? You can't read the Bible here. You can't read the Bible here. This is the place where Abraham came.

You can't read it. Well, can we pray? You can't pray. Well, isn't this a holy place?

Why can't you pray here? They wanted to control, and they still do up to this point, radically, religiously, any other prayer to anybody but Allah. So, yeah, it's now under their domain. Though Israel took over the city of Jerusalem again in 1967, I think they very graciously let others have that area because they were respectful of the Muslim religion. But they could have taken it back. I recall our guide saying that you can be deported for being seen reading a Bible now on the Temple Mount.

So, it's still a powder keg, and the fuse is lit. I think you'd probably agree. Yeah, you're going back next year. Let's talk about your tour, and people are signing up right now.

Make a word of invitation to listeners to accompany you. Now is the perfect time to go. Could never be a better time than right now. Israel is opening up after COVID. They're one of the safest, most advanced countries on the planet. The first time I went to Israel, my mother thought I was crazy. It was 1978. There were bombs going off across the northern border, the Lebanese border. I heard gunfire when I lived on a kibbutz at the time. Every night, I heard machine gun fire. I heard rockets. And being a young single kid, of course, I thought, this is really exciting.

I really like this. But I've been back to Israel. This is going to be my, I think, 42nd trip to the land, doing tours. And every time we go, somebody's always concerned about that. But once you get there, those fears are banished like that day. And it's very safe, and they're always on alert.

And look, they've survived in a very messy neighborhood, and they're thriving, and it's a beautiful experience. And the topography is the same, as you would encounter during biblical times. You will never read your Bible the same way again if you take a tour to Israel.

You'll see it forever in your mind's eye when you read the text, Old or New Testament. There's nothing like Caesarea and all the places you go and teach. It's an amazing experience, I would say, to our audience, Skip, and I hope some will accompany you and Lenya as you go next spring. Well, it's a life-changing experience, guaranteed that.

And I'll put this as a guarantee. You'll go, and you'll want to go again and again and again. It will become your new home. You'll feel like you have spiritual roots there, because you do.

And you should go to see it. You know, everybody's going to be able to see it in the Kingdom Age, but it's nice to have something to compare it to when you see it in the Kingdom Age, and you can say, oh, I remember what it looked like when we were on tour here. And it's vastly different now, but it's good to get sort of a reference point biblically, because you can look where Abraham and Isaac and Jacob came and Joseph was buried, and you can see, you know, Bethlehem and Jerusalem and the Sea of Galilee.

The Sea of Galilee is largely untouched. It's very rural, and you will get the feel of what it was like being there with Jesus and his disciples. It's uncanny. And you'll see the Jesus boat. You will see the Jesus boat that we did a video on. That's correct. So, you know, many vacations are overhyped on the web, and they use different cameras, and you get there and you go, man, that's not what it looked like.

This is one of those things that supersedes anything we could sell. It's better. That's right.

No matter what video you see, you can't duplicate being there, feeling it, smelling it, walking on it. Yeah, it's great. Let's bring things back home, Skip. I'd like your perspective. Politics is always a lightning rod in the church. It's nothing new today. It was true in the moral majority days of the late 70s and whatnot. Are you concerned about the divisiveness we see in the church today over politics?

Yeah, I think it's distressing. Everything has become political, and in the church, there's always this ongoing debate. And it's okay to debate politically and have your different stance, but we're going to lose a chunk of our audience if we ride that hobby horse. And you're going to do a disservice to the gospel if you just take a political stand and make it all about one party or another party. Listen, God is not a Republican. He is not a Democrat. He is not an independent.

God is God. And people come to church to have that perspective, not a political perspective. They can get politics anywhere, and they do. So once you get political, people aren't going to hear anything else. If they're not of your persuasion or of your party and you make that statement as a pastor, you're going to turn that chunk of audience off, and you're not going to get them back, because they're not going to hear you when you speak about something that is eternal. So at the same time, Chip, there's nothing wrong with addressing a moral issue, because politics deals in moral issues. And it's okay to make a biblical stand on a moral issue and say this is what the Bible says about transgenderism or about homosexuality or about this or that and help them think biblically and clearly about these issues.

It's going to help them be better at politics and voting. But to get political and vie for a party is a mistake, I believe. Here's a question I'm very anxious to ask you, Skip, and the answer's extra biblical.

It's your perspective. I remember being on the Appian Way with you on the Road to Rome shoot and talking about the Apostle Paul's philosophy of the world. How do you think he viewed the intrigue of the Caesars? How closely did he follow or even care about the politics of his day? Well, yeah, that's a great question, because he was involved in the politics of his day. He was caught in the crossfire of the politics of his day. The politics of his day took his head off his shoulders, and he was in the court tied up with things, but he always elevated the opportunity. So whether he was in the courtroom at Caesarea or the courtroom in Rome, he shared truth, he shared gospel, he shared with the leader about the resurrection. And when one of the Roman leaders said, What are you trying to persuade me to be a Christian?

He goes, That's my hope. I don't want just you, but all those listening would be just like I am, except without these chains. So he had a single passion. He had a single target with every human being.

How can I influence this person to get them to happen, to think eternally and get them beyond just the politics of this region? I mean, the Caesars were corrupt beyond, they make our guys look like rookies. That's true. I wonder if he'd be, you know, day-to-day listening to political talk radio back in Rome or how, I think he'd be intrigued but not obsessed.

I think that's a good way to put it. I think he would be intrigued and he probably would, well, when he was in prison in Rome, he had several people from Caesar's household. The political arena worked for Caesar of the echelon, the upper echelon guard, come to his Bible studies, come to faith in Christ. Those of Caesar's household greet you.

So he made an impact eternally in these lives. And what I love is he didn't try to persuade them, Hey, you know what? You should leave Caesar's household now. Nor did Jesus tell Roman soldiers to quit being soldiers. Nor did John the Baptist tell them.

He just said, be content with your wages. But they found themselves in these political arena's situations but not becoming politically motivated or polarized in one direction or another. Stayed above it, stayed free from it. What other trends today in the contemporary church and the Christian movements give both encourage and concern you? Well, I am encouraged because I see what we saw at Calvary Chapel in the 60s and 70s become sort of the international norm now. Back then, churches were pretty stymied.

I think they were very regulated and they were very formal. But Calvary Chapel was a little more relaxed and kind of focused on authenticity and music and worship. That's sort of become the evangelical norm.

Those are good trends, I think. You know, you don't have to always wear a tie. You don't have to always sing a hymn. You can have new modes of worship and fresh contemporary things.

I'm always concerned. I guess my biggest concern is the pulpit, because I'm a pulpiteer. I'm a pastor. And I am concerned with how the Bible is not taught. And how, yeah, Jesus has talked about Christianity. There's a church.

But, you know, you just don't go deep. And I think people, the average Christian is biblically illiterate. They don't know their way around the Bible.

They wouldn't be able to have conversations about deep things that really people have in the world to keep them from Christianity. I get people all the time saying, man, I sent her daughter, you know, and dealing with this and that. And they're arguing with me about it. They don't even believe anymore. And I'm amazed how ill-equipped they are to answer their son or daughter. And so I will give them answers for their loved ones or the conversations they're having, but I encourage them.

I said, here's some resources you need, because you need to be the one telling them this, showing them this. So I think it all goes back to the pulpit. You know, a few years ago, an assistant pastor was driving me to the airport.

I was taking a flight to Canada. And he said, I have a question for you. Can you name five pastors under the age of 40 who are expository teachers? And I was stumped. I started naming a few that I knew, that I worked and associated with, sent out.

But beyond that, I couldn't name them. And I said, why do you ask me? He goes, because my class asked me that. The class at the School of Ministry here, one of the girls posted on her Facebook, said, look, we're done with the dazzle. We want depth. We're done with the pizzazz.

We're done, she said, with glam rock Christianity. We want young guys who are going to teach us truth deeply. And so she asked the class, she asked the teacher, this guy, name five evangelical pastors under the age of 40 who are expositors.

He said, I couldn't do it. And so he asked me. And I thought, I'm going to write that book. That is something I'm working on, Depth Not Dazzle, and the idea of a plea for depth, biblical truth and exposition.

That's really what I do. And I think that's what pastors should do. I think all pastors should be expositors. So I think a lot of them think they are, but they're not, because they couldn't even define exposition. They just think it's sort of rattling off ideas on a text. That is not biblical exposition.

And so I think they should learn that, and I think they should do that. So to be clear, you're saying there's still a drought in the land for the word of God, and the obstruction lies in the pulpit. More so than ever before. That's saliently put. The fault lies at the feet of preachers. And it's sort of become about soundbites again, what tweets well, what's great on Instagram. You get a little message, a snippet, an exhortation.

And it's like these pastors, a lot of these young pastors think that what they have to say is really important, and it's not. You can never say better than what God has already said. So you don't have to come up with anything. You don't have to invent anything.

You have to actually find out the principle that is there and say that. Teach them that. But it's almost like the onus is on them to manufacture. We're not manufacturers. He's called us to be distributors.

He's got the goods. Distribute it. Teach it.

Tell it. I've watched you follow the biblical model, Skip, of sending out those to Jerusalem, Samaria, the uttermost parts of the earth. Let's talk about some of the—you're a church planter. You've created church planters.

And we know the success you've seen. Yeah, I love the fact that we've had many people on our staff, youth leaders. They just get a fire in their belly, and they want to go out and do something. And they go plant churches, very successful churches, churches that will last for generations, I hope. That has to be gratifying to you.

Yeah, very gratifying. It's like spiritual grandkids. You have spiritual children, but then they go out and they create something. And so you have a part in that, some of the DNA. It's not like they're replicating me or this, because they draw from a number of sources and inspirations and make their own. And that's beautiful.

But yeah, to have some part in that, it's like, that's awesome. You introduced to me many years ago, Skip, the principle from a book called The Problem with Wine Skins, taken from the Scripture, obviously, about what Jesus said. How have you avoided that trap? When you're a leader and you listen week in and week out to people who either leave your church or are coming to your church or they have new ideas, all those things make an impact. So you are able to constantly, daily hear that and filter and then come down and say, okay, so what's important? What's not important? What is reaching people?

What is not reaching people? Now, the danger is you start accommodating to the felt needs of people or the stated felt needs of people. Because if you would have asked me at 18, what is my need?

I would have told you something that wasn't the truth. What I needed was the gospel. And so if a church would have tailored its ministry around what Skip said his need was, it would have not aimed in the right direction. God already knows what your need is. So one of the ways that helps me is I go to younger people in the ministry and ask them their advice, what they see.

Their eyes are different than my eyes. I have a history, and I'm used to seeing things a certain way and hearing things a certain way and expecting things to be a certain way. But when I get to talk to my son, who knows your son, and those who've done ministry and are really monitoring what the Lord's doing worldwide, and I get some ideas from them, I love new ideas. And I love trying new things, and I love working and letting those remain. But after a while, if that doesn't work, throw it away. We tried it for 10 years, now let's do something different. I don't mind doing that. And it doesn't have to be my idea.

I just want to be able to use somebody else's idea and implement it. I appreciate so much, Skip, that you're adherent to—it's not the mileage, it's the maintenance of your spiritual philosophy, and you've maintained it. But let's be honest about the pain of being a pastor. It's not all roses.

You open yourself up to people. And I remember interviewing Chuck Smith one time, Skip, and he said, what's the most difficult thing about your ministry? He said, those who were close to me turned on me. And boy, that was heartfelt.

Yeah, it was heartfelt. And every leader knows that reality. Every leader knows what David said. Those that I went to the house of God with, and we were associates in the temple, and they've turned the heel against me. Yeah, betrayal is hard. Jesus knew what that was like, right? Peter denied him. Judas betrayed him.

They all walked out on him. So we have to realize that's going to be our lot at some point, and we're called into the army, we're called into the battlefield of ministry. Not that you want to become an embattled pastor or always pick a fight with people, but just realize that is going to happen. So if you know that is going to happen, it still hurts, but it takes a little bit of the sting off of, especially when you relate to it happened to him, happened to Christ. Skip, so having boys in the ministry, it is very amazing, and yet there is a different, it's a different time, but yet I respect the fact that they have that biblical anchor. And that's what gives me great relief and great hope.

Right. You know, it's like somebody once said, love God with all of your heart and do whatever you want. That's how you find the will of God.

And first people kind of are shocked by that, but it's true, right? If you love God, you're going to do what God wants. And so I think that stay in the Word, young preacher, be anchored to the text, and do what you want.

Let your own style blossom right where you're at. And they have, and they've done tremendous. That's for one generation. We're both grandfathers now.

We're dinosaurs. I mean, how good is that being a grandfather? Oh my goodness.

I'd have had him first if I knew how fun it was. It's, you know, we all know the joke that grandchildren are God's reward for you not killing your kids. Raising kids is wonderful, but having the grandchildren is just like icing on the cake all day long. It does give you a different perspective of the future. And frankly, it concerns me. You know, we're both baby boomers.

We've lived in the bubble of prosperity like few generations ever have. And I have concerns about the future of our kids. You're concerned especially with, you know, what they're going to be exposed to, what our kids are exposed to, what's available on social media, what's available on the Internet, the ideologies going around, the progressive ideologies in our culture, in churches, et cetera, et cetera. It's, you know, they're up against a big battle. Yeah.

And yet we always have that knowledge that God loves them more than we do. That's right. And that's no small thing. Right.

And it's exciting to think about what the Lord might do to use them to impact the culture that is so awry. Well, thanks for the time, Skip. One final question when it comes to individual music. Lennon or McCarty? Oh, well, they were best together and they were not as good a part. They kind of had good hits on their own. But let's face it, the blending of their voices and talents is what made it work. No, we've both seen McCarty in person. And to see a Beatle was amazing. Yeah, it was amazing.

It's an amazing group. You know, I have prayed for Paul McCartney for years. John Lennon had an interesting bout for a while with Jesus coming to Christ. There's books that have been written about that, a period in his life where he wept and prayed and wrote songs. And a lot of people don't know that, but it's true and it can be validated. Paul McCartney is still alive.

It'd be great to see. And, you know, I thought, wouldn't it be great to be in London and have Paul McCartney as your worship leader? But that ship has probably sailed. But the Lord could still do a work. And just like Bob Dylan, think of what the Lord did in his life.

And I pray for him weekly as well, that God would just rekindle that fire. Let's close with that thought, Skip, that Bob Dylan was the equivalent of a Beatle, wouldn't you agree? Oh, certainly. As far as a seismic cultural icon? Well, he was to the Beatles. Dylan influenced the Beatles. He changed the way the Beatles wrote songs, and especially John Lennon. He was highly impacted by him. So, yeah, Dylan has impacted the world. I mean, he got the Nobel Peace Prize. So today, we have the equivalent of it in Justin Bieber, to some degree Kanye West, influenced the culture.

But we don't depend on them, and yet God uses those cultural figures. It's exciting to see and read about the spiritual journey and the songs that both of them have produced, not only acknowledging the Lord, but telling their audience what's important, and trying to use their voice to get people to hear God's voice. So I'm praying that people will. That is Skip Heitzig in a conversation with Chip Lusko as we continue Vision Week on Connect with Skip. For our friends who are donors to this program, we want to thank you for your financial help. In the past few years, this teaching ministry has continued its growth trend, as Skip mentioned. We want to do more, grow more, and reach more people with verse-by-verse Bible study. We invite you to help us do that during Vision Week. Please consider a one-time growth gift.

It is easy to do. Either call 1-800-922-1888 or go online to connectwithskip.com. And when you do give this week, we have a special resource package for you. Here are the details. We'd like to send you a signed copy of Skip's latest book, The Biography of God. You will also receive a hardcover copy of Joel Rosenberg's excellent new book, Enemies and Allies.

Skip plays a part in this story of seismic changes in the Middle East. Get your copy of both books with your gift of $50 or more to Connect with Skip to support the growth of these Bible teachings. If you've been impacted by Skip's messages, your gift is your vote for growth.

Either call 1-800-922-1888 or go online to connectwithskip.com and give your tax-deductible gift today. Don't miss the next program on Vision Week when we will hear from Nate Heitzig and his thoughts on Christian authors and artists diluting and even departing from the faith in the concerning trend of deconstruction and how it is impacting Christian culture. Make a connection, make a connection at the foot of the cross and cast all burdens on His word. Make a connection, connection. Connect with Skip Hyten is a presentation of Connection Communications, connecting you to God's never-changing truth in ever-changing times.