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Craig Parton (The Protestant Reformation)

Janet Mefferd Today / Janet Mefferd
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October 26, 2021 4:00 am

Craig Parton (The Protestant Reformation)

Janet Mefferd Today / Janet Mefferd

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October 26, 2021 4:00 am

This week marks the 504th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation. How did this gospel revolution unfold, how does the corruption of the Middle Ages compare to our own time, and what is the likelihood of another Reformation today? On the next JANET MEFFERD TODAY, Christian thinker and author Craig Parton joins Janet to talk about it. He is a contributor to the book, "Where Christ is Present." That and more on Tuesday's JANET MEFFERD TODAY.

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This archived broadcast of Janet Mefford today is brought to you by Hartford, Lebanon, God is using hard for Lebanon to bring practical assistance and the gospel to the stricken refugee families in Lebanon for a gift of $116 you can give a child in his family survival essentials for four months and the hope of Jesus Christ which lasts forever. Call now 888-247-5499 888-247-5499 there's a banner to, our confidence is in Christ alone anniversary of the Protestant Reformation and really Martin Luther's posting the 95 theses in Wittenberg started a revolution of Bible recovery and gospel recovery that the Lord used to change the world down into our own day and yet many evangelicals today don't even know the basics about what was going on in 1517, because this Augustinian monk to stand up against papal abuses and to stand for the gospel truth that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone, but maybe now more than ever we need to understand our spiritual heritage in the Reformation as well as the gospel and biblical truth recovered then that we must maintain today. We also can learn a lot from examining some of the issues that plague the church of the Middle Ages prior to the Reformation because many have observed that there are some similarities between then and now.

So today were to travel back in a church history been talk about the Protestant Reformation with Craig Parton. Craig is a Christian apologist attorney and partner price. Postel, LLP, which is a law firm in Santa Barbara, California.

He was also a staff member with campus Crusade for Christ and traveled to more than 100 colleges and universities defending the Christian faith through lectures and debates is the author of three books and is a contributor on Christian liberty, and the arts.

A great chapter talking about Bock as theologian in this new book will be discussing is called where Christ is present to theology for all seasons on the 500th anniversary of the Reformation and Craig so great to have you here today. How are you great Janet Jan, this is interesting to me. You probably had a similar experience because you get around a lot and talk to a lot of different people, but I have talked to more people than I can possibly count who think that Martin Luther was the guy who gave the I have a dream speech. Have you run into well I want to hold a music store in Southern California to find out if they had a certain recording of handled the response was with the name of the group. Again, no go alright with me as a cultural wasteland that we man, but you shouldn't be the case with Christians that we don't know who Martin Luther is and that we don't know what the Protestant Reformation is about, and that's another thing that I run into.

Time after time Christians who ought to know a lot about the Protestant Reformation say Ellison at that thing with the Catholics. That's about as far as it gets and I'd like to know what your thoughts are on why that is a me, why don't we know more about it.

I think part of the reason is Janet American evangelicalism really has grown up alongside tourism and alongside pop-culture and neither of those have a great respect for history and of the American utilitarian ethic. We can do it better. We don't really need to learn from other cultures. What happened in America is worth that no other country can teach us anything about those kinds of sentiments really go into a think the beatitude that is fine if you want to learn church history, but you know God truly working now it's it's a new spirit say the old spirit who hunkered around in Wittenberg in 1517. You got it yet to get modern you gotta get contemporary go to get with it. Janet yeah hang out with 500-year-old theology in the course Reformation's responses, not 500 years old with apostolic theology of the back and biblical caricature is and there are those to look for example at some of the state churches in Europe and looking bold. The German churches of the Lutheran churches in Germany. Their dad, why should we pay attention to a dead history in OD. These are the people who are rooted in the Reformation and that obviously is something God doesn't care about anymore. It was a long time ago. No connection between then and now, what is the connection would you say between then and now.

Will was short of the gospel in God's revelation of himself in the person and work of Christ and how that comes to us today in order to give peace to the troubled conscience. The reason Luther's discovery of the gospel lose the rediscovery of the gospel in the book of Romans is significant is Luther Luther's problem was not that he was not too good of a market was that he was a very good monkey understood the theological system precisely and is a crisis with in the Reformation's crisis was really a crisis of the confessional.

This wasn't some academic exercise of the debates over academic topics.

This was how do you find peace with God is. Luther said, and in his cell. Many times God is holy. I am not he only allows holy beings in his sight. I'm not holy I'm doomed.

That said, that it can be no layered out more than that but that was the kind of terrified conscience when he read the Scripture and saw what God required in perfect holiness and you get to the sermon on the Mount in Luther's just in terror. This is a new know unless you're perfect you're not can see my heavenly father and all the list of the deprivations of humans and Adam it's a doom situation unless there is a total rescue there.

There's really not good news and that's with the Reformation was about and it is relevant that message of how God plays and what is been done for us in Christ to deal with our rebellion or hatred of God is as relevant today just to terrified conscience as it was 500 years ago was back to the time of the apostles and Paul absolutely yes will now when we look back at that time.

It's a very alien culture.

In a lot of ways than that of the Middle Ages says that the papacy, the power of the papacy.

The way things were going in Germany at the time, but what was that time, like a lot of Americans today just have no handle it all on what the cultural and the church situation was for something like Martin Luther, will you know I Think Rd., Rosenblatt put it well was the only question in the 16th century. The central question of the entire century is how my faith and that I think helps people to understand or to at least two very strongly competing views about that position. One was that the church of the day in his room, change, and it never changes. The church of the day teaching that at best. You and God cooperating with your cooperation in your work can save you that you aren't is tainted by an and lost in sin and deprivation is what Scripture teaches that there is a divine spark in you.

They can reach up and cooperate with God and God will pour more grace, and you through the sacraments.

If you do, so that you can by following the penitential system and the system worked out in the church fathers of the Roman Catholic Church.

You can find. Ultimately, that you will die and have an opportunity to work it through more in purgatory and end up in God's presence and competing with that was Luther's position that the Scripture teaches very clearly that man is completely incapable of saving them. So you are saved by grace through faith. And that's not of yourself, even the faith is a gift from God. He desires all men to be saved. Those who are lost at their own doing, but our salvation is totally secure extra notes outside of us by the finished work of Christ, which is appropriated by means of faith with it's all about Christ in his finished work and nothing is going to add to that man's man's most righteous works won't add to that is. Luther said man at his most righteous moment in which is kind of stunning people what what you mean when you time people can do good works is that what he's talking about anybody out trying to meet God. And please God outside of the work of Christ is in a state of law that's with Luther saying right and so his initial anger, though his initial concerns with the papal authority and with the Roman Catholic Church of his own day had to do with this issue of indulgences here was this Texel who's going through the towns and ringing the bell, and if you know you saw from purgatory, will spring if you put your coin in the coffer. This was the this was really that kickoff that was hey, this is totally corrupt. There's no way that this should be happening yet. It has a moral twinge to it, but the Reformation was not primarily a moral crusade. It was not about reforming Rome on a moral level to change some of its ways with indulgences. It really went to the theology of the thing. That's the difference in what Luther was doing with a savanna role is called pre-reformers called out just about what we do need to go to a bright start talking about the Reformation stay with us. This is Janet.

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We look back to 1517. When a monk named Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the church wall in Wittenberg, Germany and the world has never been the same since were coming up on the 500th anniversary in just a couple of years were talking about this very important events, not just in world history.

But in the life of every Christian. Crag is with us to talk about where Christ is present, the book that he's contributed to the kind we were you made a really excellent point before we had to go to the break there and it was that the fact that when Luther was objecting to the indulgences that were being sold by the Roman Catholic Church of his day that the entire Reformation cannot be seen merely in the context of trying to morally reform Rome, but it went beyond that the legacy of the Reformation became what is the gospel, and as you said how how can I be saved. How can I be made right with God exactly right with theological revolution. It was literally going back to the book of Romans going back to Romans four, five, and justified by faith that Christ's work is fully efficient to cover all of my rebellion. Luther's first the on Wittenberg says when our Lord Jesus Christ said repent ye he meant that the entire Christian life is one of repentance. In other words, we don't send into some sanctified level were we don't need the cross of Christ anymore. The cross of Christ is all sufficient for the entire life of the Christian's, absolutely. It's interesting also to note because a lot of people don't realize this, that Martin Luther didn't go into his theses posting thinking to start a new church. In fact, he didn't want to start is uncertain what was the factory on that where you know he didn't want to start a church, but he ended up being excommunicated and then Lutheranism developed yet he didn't like the term Lutheran at all. Luther was a very conservative conservative reformers CP cross work. The conservative Reformation said that all he was not one of the radical reformers like Bingley and some of the other enthusiasts to cow prophets and others who said basically the church is been wrong for 2000 years, and now I have the right way to do it and so if the church uses vestments with not use them if it uses artwork with not use it. If there's a high altar. Let's not use that Luther's view was very very different. He did not believe use the first person to be a Christian on earth he believed the church history was important. They believe the ecumenical creeds correctly explain Christian doctrine and his attitude was always extremely conservative in terms of what he did because he knew that people had been saved in the Catholic Church for 2000 years. It's not like people didn't hear the gospel you going to the Catholic Church. Today, at least if you get the old right of the old Western right and if you know some Latin you will get Christ in the saving office and people heard that message and I've got a believe there are boatload of Christian believers from the Middle Ages went to the Catholic Church heard the liturgy and frankly ignored with the sermon said about how they can work the work of God, and please God on their own efforts and just heard the simple words of the liturgy and believed in were they believe that they contributed nothing to their salvation. The Christ alone it done.

It but Luther's approach was let's not harm consciences by throwing out the entire Western liturgy. Let's lift conservative.

The only things that were discarded in the early Reformation church is certainly the ones that Luther was involved with Wittenberg, and in those provinces. They retained all aspects of the liturgical service of that time unless it was what offended the gospel so side alters were gone.

No none of this in approach God through his mother kind of thing that's over.

No more adoration of the host outside of the giving of the sacrament when I cannot go marching through the streets of Wittenberg with the host held up so people can drop dollar bills on it. Things like that. Those route but other than that is some folks who said Luther's liturgical were off the chart. He was very conservative when it came to maintaining the worship life of the church, except where the gospel had been effaced or actually contradicted by accretions that it slipped in from from the apostolic time up to the Roman Catholic Church of his day.

Right now it's interesting because you pointed out something really important fact that Luther was, not a radical reform of those came later that a lot of people will say why was it that Luther is excommunicated. If he if he all he cared about was theology and I think it's the American mindset to who cares about theology, I mean why would somebody be excommunicated simply because he said what he said about the gospel. Why didn't they just listen to them and accept it.

Why was it such a big deal to you know Paul him up before the diet of worms in his life was in danger, and that this is a very serious danger he was in for a time absolutely incredibly courageous act, knowing that he was going against the entire tide of the priesthood. Eventually the attitude was, you think you're the only person got this right and everyone else is been wrong but you and Luther would continually go back to the text and say but this is what the gospel is as taught by Paul in Romans you've got a deal with me. Explain to me where I'm wrong on the teaching of Scripture. And I don't care if the church is held to different beliefs for 400 years. Those beliefs can be wrong and they can be wrong very very early.

You gotta show me from the text where the problem is in the attitude was, you don't understand your authority is not just in the Scriptures alone. It is interpreted by the teaching magisterium of the church and Luther was going delivering a real broadside. To that end, and basically saying look at any schoolboy with the basic education can get what God seen in the book of Romans right just the candidate and I don't care if all the popes ever lined up, take a different view.

They can excommunicate Paul writes alternately what you had in the counterreformation of the middle of the 16th century financially be be anathematized.

It is is Lutheran early Lutheran reformer said they anathematized Paul in the teachings of the book of Galatians, so you always have strong forces on that side, just as you have today in many American evangelical circles, people, teaching things that are contrary to what Scripture teaches on the gospel itself rights.

And yet there incredibly powerful churches and people and sometimes takes a brave person to stand up with the word of God and say show me where I'm wrong from the text. Yes that's right well and it was a different era to because this is the air in which the printing press finally came along and here was Luther who ended up in Wartburg and he would, he translated the Bible. I mean, he did so much. That's what strikes me when you go back to the life of Luther blow-by-blow and yet he was this man who was absolutely committed to Christ and the gospel absolutely committed to the word of God and yet you he seems so humankind when you read what he writes. He throws out insults to people. Sometimes he speaks and I even it's kind of you know to me as a Christian. It gives me some hope is a Christian because I said if the Lord can use somebody who is clearly as flawed as Luther so you understand the truth of the gospel and the authority the word of God and there's hope for us all owe you. He had a wonderful marriage and the parsonage was really developed as a result of the Lutheran Reformation had children a happy home. There was music coming. We haven't even discussed about his very high view of the arts said yes personally it's very well established that Luther's not just his musicality but his education as a musician would have been at least at the Masters degree level that we have today. At the finest universities.

If not, if not a doctoral level. He was very familiar with counterpoint polyphonic music all of that and so what you God is not only did you get a great preacher earthy and you read Luther's sermons I mean I substitute for my pastor occasionally when he goes on vacation and we just do Luther's sermons and they are they are there very earthy, very direct. They're not playing games with you intellectually. Very much tell you where you are, what your problem is and point you to Christ.

Yes, yes, and yet you know the guy had the time to write.

However, many volumes in the German addition, the hundred and 10 volumes writing the American is whatever it is. 55.

The output is staggering. Yes staggering yes and here he translated the New Testament from its original Greek into German and from what I read 11 weeks. That was all done I mean that is incredible who can get a book out at 11 weeks.

If you know, I know it is, my wife said they didn't have electricity. They didn't have indoor plumbing. They didn't have Anastasia think of the suffering unity apparently had something close to kidney stones and having had a few of those estates.

What this suffering. These people went through.

Yes is in credit and in no children in the house and all that and yet they were so very productive not just with sermons.

He was a pastor. That's one thing you get from Luther.

He was not a systematic theologian. He was the pastoral theologian. He comforted people and their terrified consciences to confession from people and guided them, pointed them to Christ rights and able to know I'd able to do so much just on the translation front, even as he soaring ink wells at the devil and by the way is you. You know that's an interesting point of his life to is the fact that he was very straightforward about the devil's pushback all along the way. Oh yeah yeah yeah this is not any academic exercise when it came to being confronted by the demonic and you think about that if the devil is ever going to focus in on somebody somebody who's really focused on the gospel and on the authority of Scripture. I can see implanting and taking some time with Martin Luther. At that point. That doesn't surprise me in the least the end of the other thing you mention this with with this table talking. Yes, the Luther house was was full of music, full of fun full of food and wine, and in just a good time but you did much to the video. Sometimes chagrin of Katie, his wife, he would invite students in all the time they would stay with them. They would eat it table and that's where you get the table talk this wonderful raucous discussions you can just see them. After dinner, going over topics and questions based around the table so you got all that character coming out.

Absolutely Craig were to come back.

I partner with me talking about the Protestant Reformation will become back on jam effort today. This archived broadcast of Janet met today is brought to you by Hartford, Lebanon, God is using hard for Lebanon to bring practical assistance and the gospel to the stricken refugee families in Lebanon for a gift of $116 you can give a child in his family survival essentials for four months and the hope of Jesus Christ which lasts forever. Call now 888-247-5499 888-247-5499 there's a banner to effort today and here's your host Joe Macon, Janet met for today and we celebrate the anniversary of the Protestant Reformation this month. It behooves us as Christians to know from whence we came in about what really is important for us to know not just about the theology of the Reformation, but also historically about our forebears in the faith, Martin Luther, and those who came after him and cracked partners with us were talking about the Protestant Reformation in the book where Christ is present now.

You had mentioned that I was getting to crack.

We're just fascinating into this fascinating discussion about Luther, but Luther also wrote on the freedom of a Christian is sometimes called a treatise on Christian liberty. This is the third of his treatises of 1520 you addressed this issue this important issue of Christian liberty specifically with the arts and with Johan Sebastian Bach Gabby list composer serious Lutheran theologian, and here is Luther's quote may people know next to theology I give music the highest place and honor. This was such a thing for Luther to to really value music, and to give it a very high place of honor.

What does that have to do with Christian liberty, and the arts, particularly in our own day and what can we learn about the place of music in the Lutheran mindsets going all the way that other very interesting to see Luther did about 38 hymns are so and was a very accomplished musician himself in an Luther which is kind of the precursor of the guitar, but again it was his theology of the freedom of the Christian freedom because of what Christ work is done for him that he is free to create. He's also free to take seriously God's creation that God asked for all the, the, the arts and musical arts. In particular, to be used for the honor and glory of Christ and the Parker Christ crucified and Luther took that very seriously in the musical arts in general and yet his theology of the freedom of the Christian never devolved into taking her or not taking seriously our sin nature that everything given to us has been tainted by sin. Unfortunately, there are no uncorrupted motives anymore.

There are no pure motives in human beings the side of eternity and as a result of that, Luther was gave the following theology to never allow the arts and music in particular to degenerate into centering on me in my own world of my own feelings and having people recognize me as a musician and being able to have my my band up front would have none of that very careful that much. As you may be redeemed Christian, you still struggle against and until the day you die as a result of that, you can always be tempted to corrupt the artistic skills and abilities you been given to do it into some self aggrandizing performance. So Lutheranism kept that theology very clearly that tension and in balance, where you encourage creativity is encouraged adaptation it encourage the kind of things that Bach would do in the 18th century and the cantatas in the mass in B minor and some of the other musical works. He was free to do those and embellish those in the service, but it never degenerated into what you may well see today which is in of the Christian rock group on YouTube which is very indistinguishable from a secular rock group except the lyrics might mention Jesus once or twice now see at least yeah yeah yeah something like that. But what is the Reformation strong emphasis on you were being given skills and abilities by God and these matched up very well with the high culture of the time and actually Lutheran theology, Lutheran churches, in particular grew up alongside an Luther and musical talent and artistic talent grew up really within the world a high culture that's what distinguished it. There was no pop culture of the day, but that's where you get you get to chronic the older and chronically younger and you get Dürer who is Catholic but came out of the strong Reformation influence, and then you get to the musicians just go on and on Pretorius and shoots and all the great musicians of the church that really ultimately culminate in Bach in in the 17th and 18th century with his his freedom as a theologian first and as it is the servant of the word as he considered himself to be completely free to create works of absolute beauty and complexity. Using his discipline for the honor and glory of God and particularly Christ crucified, and yet not letting it degenerate into just being doing things that people like to do in order to make money.

He was different than Mozart when it came to that Mozart, Glenn Gould, the great interpreter box Mozart with with somebody who would do things for tantalizing the audience would block you get the seriousness that is just as profound understanding that is been given a gift and he wants to use it for the honor and glory of God and does so with with great brilliance and exercise of discipline all well and you think of the doctrine is location that came out of the Protestant Reformation that that every job that you are doing is an honorable job you're doing it to the glory of God that really has had such a huge effect on history hasn't at this idea that your job matters to God, yeah, yeah, everybody. You know the plow boy is Luther said in the woman baking bread doing it to the honor and glory of Christ is more important than a priest whose doing false doctrine from the pulpit who you know that's that's where you get that great doctrine of vocation that everyone in the priesthood of all believers that there is no unholy vocation unless it by definition, is violating God's law, but outside of that everything done with excellence can be done to the honor and glory of Christ, and certainly Lutheran music in the Reformation's heritage of music, culminating in boxes is really good that you know what last night I didn't even think about that. I'm reading this biography of Lang Lang. The Chinese great Chinese pianist who is just here in Santa Barbara and is just a phenomenal talent but he played Bach as a young child, and I don't know where he is religiously, but he said essentially that essentially says Bach. The foundation of all music Hall music others after Bach music had no choice. Many musicologists will emphasizes had no choice but to go a different direction. Ultimately, in Schaumburg in the 20th century and discordant atonal music, but Bach explored all the reaches of music to the final and very much not that other people can't do things of great talent and an ability but if you been been nurtured on Bach. Everyone else, takes her seat. Below him.

Yeah, yeah, he's my favorite composer that I'm not sad to pander to you crag I can. I have the albums to prove his love… St. Matthew passion and then you turn on CCM. It's not the same experience and ambit, but again is to say it's not to say that those using their discipline and using their skill and their artistic abilities to the maximum extent for the honor and glory of Christ aren't exactly where God wants them to be. Not everyone can be a bargain. Frankly, there were some cultural reasons why we have a balking when you have a church service. It was three or four hours long. You turn to your church musician and say hey could you do another cantata next week right we don't support we don't have church musicians and that kind of position. Today they're not creating a lot of new work. They're basically re-creating what's already been done. I think that's a shame. I think we ought to reclaim the support of Christian not just musicians but artists I greater I agree do you think there would've ever been a Bach. Had there not been a loser. No, that's not my view. I my view is unimportant, but that's the view of Robin Lever Gunther Stiller of Kroger anger of a whole host of people that I footnote in that article, where Christ is present who said that you you would not of had the seriousness of theology that you get with Bach without Luther more than I think it's half of the box library was just the works of Luther and he did all 38 of Luther's hymns. You can find in the cantatas or the Christmas oratorio somewhere incredible comeback) and I talking about the Reformation and where Christ is present will contact status. The UN has called what's happening in Lebanon. The worst humanitarian crisis since World War II covered 19 political upheaval, a crumbling economy and 2 million refugees, children and their families living in poverty and despair. But in the middle of it all, God is at work, more Muslim cultured people than ever before are putting their faith and trust in Jesus and through your generous support heart for Lebanon is being used to bring these hurting people from despair to help a single gift of $116 helps bring a child in their family survival essentials and the hope of the gospel which lasts forever. $348 cares for this family for an entire year. We have a goal to take over 50 families off a waiting list that desperately need our help. So were hoping you'll be as generous as you can when you call 888-247-5499 888-247-5499 or there so hard for Lebanon Thank you. Ask yourself what you pay for healthcare. Are you single do you pay more than $199 a month. Are you a couple do you pay more than $299 a month.

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In particular, and the reason I think this is so important even for all the evangelicals who don't come from the Lutheran tradition is that Lutherans were the first evangelicals and a lot of modern evangelical seem to think they were the Baptists and and yet this is an interesting thing. We have lost something church history wise and not even understanding our own heritage right and I did not come from Lutheran background at all and came out of Christian science and into evangelicalism and yeah, was that it was a revelation to me that the first evangelicals were Lutherans and the reason they were considered. That is, that the gospel was the center and circumference of of all the Lutheran theology, as they say is an Luther's comment was fine. Christ at the cradle and the cross, then find him in every flower so don't start your theology in God in eternity. Don't start in nature because you get diverted natures already fallen been absolutized in nature is a dangerous way to go, but start were God's revealed himself, which is at the cradle of the incarnation and the cross find him and that gritty humanity and the gritty reality then that gives you the philosophical basis the foundation to find him in nature and in every aspect of human endeavor, but your your your right it's people today mean when you think of the Lutheran church today you think of dead yet and you think of liberal yes you think of Catholic rights that's about it. Yeah think of that.

Yeah I told Lutherans that all the time you were not perceived as evangelical in the slightest. Now your your people that play with the Bible with your own interpretive toy and your Catholic but probably too dumb to know what's in your all about works righteousness because you've got all those altars and candles and incense and vestments, which is all about hiding the fact that your theological liberal they look at me a gas like what us liberal week Lutherans out there LOL absolutely absolute absolutely. There are just like Anglicans you think Anglicans today really. Oh my gosh the churches in the terrible poise and you find some of the greatest wonderful Bible believing Anglicans in the world, but her just after and with where their churches the same with the Lutherans. Yes, that's so true it's to let you know this is a just shows the extent to which a lot of evangelicals whatever denomination or independent church you happen to be in the world becomes where you go to church and yet doesn't include really the universal body of Christ at throughout the ages, not just in different traditions in our own age but throughout the ages. We are the body of Christ. All those who belong to Jesus Christ and embrace the faith in Christ alone. You know are saved by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone.

We are united as Christians is as I've told people many times the Bible believers in the Baptist Church.

The Anglican church Lutheran and reformed, have more in common than all the liberals in every denomination they just really do ask you if you go to the text of Scripture for your theology find Christ at the center of it. You have more in common from the Lutheran Reformation then than anybody else and it's it's it's interesting you know evangelicals oftentimes will be handed down on history and what is that have the teach us were the were the new creation here. What about the creeds who cares about the creeds, but you know my my response to that is, but is there something in the creed you disagree and so all I have suggested you're probably moving away from historic Christian doctrine.

If you deny anything in the three ecumenical yes your writing to find me anything that the problem there, and it's probably a problem with your theology, not with the theology of the creed that's correct. Now this is interesting. We have touched on this, but it requires the five solos of the Reformation are no lasting legacy oscilloscope Torah. What we talked about before Scripture alone.

The Bible is our authority. How do you view modern American evangelicalism in the context of this authority of Scripture where you think or how do you think were doing on that score. Today, when push comes to shove American evangelicals will go with her feelings over the authority of Scripture that that is you will commit litmus test to me of where someone is, that is, ultimately, we are cashing out nowadays in evangelical circles. By not preaching the authority of Scripture that that stands above all our feelings that her feelings are even corrupted and oftentimes are able to be controlled. Anyway in the wind. Authority is both in Scripture and in how you feel about something.

Feelings are always going to win in Scripture's authority is that it is all what you know it's I often think that were in an unusual way for scriptures being attacked. It's always been a tactic that attack from the garden.

Wind whispered to Adam and Eve did he really say that yes the biblical critic from the beginning. Yes, so you know that that issue though was very strong and in terms of the Lutheran Reformation, the soul of Scripture that Scripture is self interpreting. Yes you do. Ecumenical creeds are a faithful interpretation of Scripture. The Scripture essentially is self interpreting. When done carefully with the with the languages that doesn't mean everybody gets thrown interpretation of the Bible. Thank you. Now that that is a the pernicious heresy that anybody can come up with anything they want to. The fact is, if you come up with something new that Scripture teaches. You're probably in heresy.

Of course, probably an adult. Here is your fault that you found something a new doctrine really should give you pause, but said the authority of Scripture is the probably the foundational doctrine of Lutheran Reformation outside a course of of the Christology and how unsafe yes to service rooted and grounded authority of the word will crank. What do you think obviously the Lord would have to move for us to have another Reformation I think were in need of one.

I think were overdue in need of another Reformation in our own day, but what what are your thoughts about where we are may be on that timeline are we as bad as they were in the Middle Ages. Are we as badly in need of a Reformation at this point as they were back in the Thursday will I think some things are getting out of our hands, which is a good thing. Secularism is finally shown itself is not being accepting of all religions and now Christians are starting to get a sense that they really could live if not them, their children and certainly their grandchildren through persecution in this country. Yes, and I think that is starting to dawn on people and you know it's coming for good reason. I think there's people were going to come to the realization that if you aren't serious about the Christian faith and about the gospel.

There's got to be plenty of opportunities to actually deny it and it's it's on its way. It seems to me, so I think that the prospect of persecution will be the greatest telling of what happens to the church in the future because we lived in pretty nice days for evangelicalism where it was okay to preach whatever you wanted. Nobody would come in your church or tell you you couldn't preach certain things that's completely changing from many many sectors I get. It is a lawyer and advice of people all the time about what they can do in terms of the proclamation of the gospel in the exercise of religious freedom is being threatened in this country, let alone another places that I see that as being something that can bring another a new Reformation of seriousness about the authority of the word and the centrality of Christ's work. That's a great point you think of the slogan that came at the time of the Reformation, after darkness, lights, and I think sometimes you need a lot of darkness before the Lord will bring the light again to the church in a fresh way. Maybe that is where were headed. Who knows, yeah, yeah, I think that's really right on janitor people say oh it's just a horrible time.

It's never been worse. Seriously think the first century Christians knew something about persecution. Something about moral evil something about gross sins going on at the highest levels. I think they knew exactly what it was like to operate in a completely pagan secularized situation and were going back to that we are going to say did they turn the world of dating and set my girls and I were looking just recently couple days ago at how all the disciples died.

All of them were martyred, except John and Judas, but we do want to count him, but all of them. Every single one of them except John so we must be prepared for what's ahead, but it's the same gospel.

You said it so well cried all the way from the times of the apostles through the time of the Reformation on into our own day and it just really encourage you to read this book, where Christ is present. Theology for all seasons on the 500th anniversary of the Reformation and Craig went so fast. It's always so great is not related.

Thank you for being with us. Craig Parton great to have had you and thank you for listening Salim Deyo, Gloria, is our agenda for today is to impart my heart for Lebanon call 888-2474 99 to give desperate people help gospel

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