God’s Heart For the Sexually Broken

So one of the first times that we got to know each other and we were sitting down for a long discussion, we'd shared openly about how we had failed in our purity. And you had a history and I had a history.

And then you made a comment. But you know, I'm just I'm going to marry a virgin. And I remember driving home being so filled with shame and regret because I thought I will never be able to marry someone like Dave Wilson, who's a godly man. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.

And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us at familylifetoday.com or on our Family Life app. This is Family Life Today. Before we were dating, we had shared how we came to know Jesus. We had shared our vision for our lives. And I was only 18 and you were 21. So we were young.

But man, I knew I wanted to follow Jesus. But we had also shared openly about how we had failed in our purity, even at a young age. Not with each other.

Not with each other, but with yes. Yeah, but with other people were just sharing our past history. And then you said to me, but you know, I'm just I'm going to marry a virgin. And I was so quick to be on the defense because I'm like, you hypocrite. You just shared all this stuff that you've done. And mind you, I had just shared all mine, but suddenly I would not be good enough for you, even though Jesus had cleansed me from my sin.

But you couldn't. And I was so mad at you. Do you remember this? I don't remember much about that conversation.

I do. Because I'm just an idiot. But I now can hear it and feel your shame. You know, in the moment, never even thinking that there would be shame felt by anyone, especially you, now my wife. But yeah, that is exactly what you feel.

Like I blew it and therefore I'm never going to be clean again. You know, and that's some of the problem with some of the teaching that has been in the church. And I think I've even done it in years past about sexuality and God's heart for sex. And so we need to have a discussion about this. And we've said enough about us. Yeah.

Now we need to hear from Ron Deal and Dr. Julie Slattery, who are in the studio with us, continuing a conversation about, boy, you guys know as much as anybody, this is important stuff. It isn't just sex. It's so much bigger than that. It's really a spiritual walk with God. And sex is a big part of that.

It's not separate. And I'm preaching to the choir. So Ron and Julie, welcome back again with us.

Thank you. Yeah. I mean, Julie, you spend your days in your ministry. You've written a book called Rethinking Sexuality.

We could let you just handle this whole thing. And Ron too. Yeah. And Authentic Intimacy, just the title of your podcast. Is it a podcast? It's a ministry, and the podcast is Job with Julie. Yeah. So say this real quick about Authentic Intimacy. And then Ron's over here, Mr. Blended Family, Family Life Director. Author.

Unbelievable. But all of us have a heart for understanding this. So Julie, start with you. When you hear us even talk about that conversation early in our relationship, what hits you about that?

It just hurts my heart. I think one thing I've learned over the last decade of ministering on sexual issues is that every sexual issue is also a spiritual issue. And so when we talk about sex and we talk about our wounds and the messaging that kind of goes wrong even from the church, when we think about sex wrong, we think about God wrong. And even what you were reflecting in is, am I pure? Am I clean? Am I worthy? If this godly man can't embrace me, does God embrace me? And so these conversations are essential.

We see today really thousands and thousands of young adults deconstructing from the Christian faith primarily because of sexual pain. Really? Yes. Wait, you say primarily. Why do you say that?

Well, because I talk to them and I hear their stories and I read their books and listen to their podcasts. But it's a sexual issue like, I followed the purity culture. I married a pastor who cheated on me and broke my heart. Or I followed the purity culture message, save sex for marriage and sex is horrible. It's been painful our whole marriage.

Or I never got married. God never brought that husband. And so I think we have to handle these conversations with so much care because we're not just talking about sex. We're talking about God's heart for people and what it means to be loved by him and called by him and what redemption looks like. Now, do you also think, because you made a really strong argument that when we get sex wrong, we get God wrong. Do you think when we get sex right, it really helps us understand God correctly?

Yes. I think Scripture's really clear about that. God's story of sex is that he created sexuality to be a powerful earthly experience to teach us about the nature of how he loves us. And so when I see people get healing and redemption sexually, their connection to God becomes so much more personal and intimate. And so we want to see God reclaim this in people's lives.

Well, Ron, you're sitting over there. I know you have thoughts. You know, we've talked about this previously, but give us just a quick, what's the purity culture? Because we want to understand that. And then let's dive into some Scripture because some of that was based on some truth that might have been maybe misunderstood.

Yeah. Before I recap that, just an additional thought. If you're the God of the universe, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and you're about to create, and you're going to make these humans, and you want to make them in your image, and you are an intimate communion of love, three, somehow one, full unity, full cooperation and companionship and self-giving to one another, and you want to make them in your image, what do you do? Well, you create in them an ability to be one, and for that oneness to create new life. You give them the ability to do and replicate who you are. So their bodily experience of sexuality teaches them about intimacy, teaches them about knowing and being known in a way that you can't just communicate with words and accomplish.

You give them something physical that they can actually experience. That's just the beginning of a theology of sex. That just only gets us started into the conversation. And Ron, as I hear you say that, and Julie, what you've painted is this beautiful picture of the intention and love of God. And so if you're the enemy of God, wouldn't you want to totally annihilate that beautiful vision?

And he has. I haven't met a person who's not sexually broken at some level, who hasn't gotten some wrong teaching and thinking and experience of this that has skewed their perspective. Would you guys all say that of your kids as well? Oh, sure. Me too. Absolutely. Wow.

Absolutely. No matter how much we try to protect them, which brings us to the purity culture, because that's what we were trying to do is protect our kids. We were trying to help them see some good things about God and His design for sex, and it was really well intended. And yet we overdid it, I think. We just programmed it. We got controlling about it in some ways. In our fear. In our fear.

And it's almost like we created threats that we didn't need to create and gave promises that we couldn't keep. Threats like, man, if you do this, you're like this rose. Let's pass around this rose and let's beat it up. Yes. And you're the one who's been used and abused, and this is you. And by the way, that was- And you don't want to be that rose. That was literally done. Absolutely. That's why I'm using it as an example.

I mean, some listeners are like, what are you talking about? They literally passed a rose around and beat it up. It was prescribed in youth groups all over the country.

You were a youth pastor. The intent was good. The intent was good, right? But the mechanism created a different message.

We create threats because we want to scare you into obedience, like that's going to work. And then the other thing we did is made promises that we really couldn't keep. If you do this and you remain a virgin and boy, you don't even kiss till your wedding day, then you're going to have a happy married sex life. You're going to have children. Like everything's just going to roll from that point forward. Again, I think what we've said here is, you know, in moments where we really want to influence our kids around things that we really believe in are important, it's easy to kind of reduce it down into something where we create these threats and promises. And so I really understand how it happened. And I think now the important thing is that we're talking about, yeah, but what were the messages that were really good and right? And how do we lift those up for the next generation? And even, as Julie keeps reminding me, for everyone now who has some measure of brokenness, something in us that was just a little tainted by what we heard 20, 30 years ago or yesterday. Yeah. And, you know, as we know, much of the discussion and teaching on purity came from the New Testament.

I mean, from various places. But there was a passage that I taught as a pastor, as a chaplain. I can remember sitting down with Detroit Lion players who were single and saying, here's the goal. And I went to 1 Corinthians 7. So I'm going to read it. And I'd like you two to just make some comments on it, because, again, Ron, you're right. Really, there's a lot of good that was taught out of this passage. And even, Ron, when you were setting up the way you described the Trinity and then creating sex, it gave me another way to visualize that.

I was like, wow. I mean, I've taught on this for decades. I've never thought of it like that. And then as I think about this passage, I'm like, this passage makes a lot of sense in that perspective. Like, this is an unbelievably beautiful gift that we're trying to just help you carefully protect. So let's read it.

And then I'd love to hear your comments. Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 7, verse 1, it says, now for the matters you wrote about. So obviously it was a hot topic then, too.

This isn't new. It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman. But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife and each woman with her own husband. The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body, but yields it to his wife. Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time so that you may devote yourselves to prayer.

Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. All right, I know you've read this, taught this, studied this many times. As you hear it now read in this conversation, what comes to your mind? What kind of things do we need to think about? Well, I think first we have to understand, and you understand this as a pastor, that this was not written in chapters.

It's a whole letter. And as a matter of fact, if we rewind into 1 Corinthians 6, Paul is talking about how you were bought with a price, therefore honor God with your bodies. He's talking about sexuality, that everything you do with sexuality has a spiritual ramification. What you eat doesn't really matter, but what we do with your body sexually, spiritually matters. Your body is a temple. It holds the Holy Spirit.

Right, yeah. And there's something significant about our sexuality. And so we take that in context, and if you keep reading in 1 Corinthians 7, Paul then instructs singles about their sexuality. So we have to understand that this instruction is within the context of a whole letter, and it's also responding to something specific that the Corinthians were asking about that we don't really know. Again, one of the dangers here, just like with purity culture, is taking a piece of Scripture and building a whole theology out of one piece without seeing it in the context of everything else that the Scripture teaches about sex, about marriage, about love.

And so there's some beautiful pieces in this passage, but if you only read this passage without the context, here's what you hear. Sex is a really bad thing, and so God created marriage to control it. If you want to control your sexuality, you owe each other sex. You owe it to your spouse.

It's your duty. And if you don't give it to them, then Satan's going to tempt them, and they will sin sexually. We've heard that from the pulpit. Not my pulpit.

Just making sure. That is really the message that, again, if you just read it at face value without putting it into context, you can see how people get there, which is extremely dangerous, both in the message to singles as well as the application of that to marriage. So we've got a lot of unpacking to do. Well, how do we understand this passage and others, of course? Teach us the correct way of understanding it. Yeah, a healthy, godly view of it, because it's an awesome, beautiful gift from God.

How do we get there? So in verse 1, there's a question that the people in Corinth are asking. Apparently, somebody's going around teaching, you know what, this whole physical body thing is something we should just avoid, so even sex with your spouse, just don't even do that because you're engaging the flesh, and you want to run away from the flesh, and you just want to be wrapped up into the spiritual things. Sort of a gnostic view of the body.

Exactly. And he's addressing that, and he's saying, no, this is a good thing. This is created by God, and this is something that you share with one another. I'm really curious about the language when he says, should give to his wife, the ESV says, her conjugal rights, and likewise a wife gives her husband conjugal rights. Throughout the entire Old Testament, covenant of marriage, you made a promise to give food, clothing, and conjugal rights. That was in their wedding vows. That's how they articulated what they were going to do for one another, and it was metaphorical. Paul is referencing one of those conjugal rights. He's actually using the language.

The Hebrew people, the Jewish people would have been very familiar with this language. By the way, historians have followed food, clothing, and conjugal rights all the way up until today, and for us, it's love, honor, and cherish. So he's saying, you made a vow. This is a part of the relationship. This is something that's good and right, and God has created it to be such. It's a part of the sexual intimate relationship of knowing each other and coming to know God through your sexuality. So yes, be responsible to one another.

Engage one another in sex. It's not out of duty as in, oh my gosh, I hate this. This is a horrible, awful thing, and you just have to do it even if you don't want to.

It's not that at all. It's out of a heart of love and sacrifice and giving to one another. This is a part of your commitment to one another, so there's a responsibility there. But it's not begrudgingly having to do sex.

That's not what it's teaching at all. It's beautiful to paint that context, the historical context. You know, one thing that has really helped me understand this passage and so much else about sex is really going back to that idea that when a husband and wife get married, they are echoing the covenant love of God. And God's covenant love to us has all different elements to it.

It has His faithfulness to us. It has this journey of intimate knowing, of us knowing Him more and Him being intimately involved with us. It has sacrificing for us and us sacrificing for Him, laying down our lives for Him as He did for us.

But it also has this aspect of passionate celebration. So when we worship together as the bride of Christ in church or in personal gatherings or even in our own devotional time, there is a time to celebrate our covenant with the Lord, with singing, with dancing, with joy. And in essence, sex is that piece of the covenant. It's the bodily celebration, remembering the covenant love we have.

And Tim Keller says it like this. He says, when you have sex as a married couple, it's like a covenant renewal ceremony. You're doing with your body what you have promised to do with your whole life. Now, when you read 1 Corinthians 7 in that context, what it's really saying is don't neglect this covenant celebration that even within our bodies, the oxytocin, the dopamine, the endorphins that happen during sex are a beautiful way of recharging our intimacy, reminding us of the vows we made even in our bodies. But that also means that we minister to one another. And so there are so many situations where simply having sex is actually wounding for a couple, particularly for women. When they read 1 Corinthians 7 or they hear that taught and they give their body when they're not ready to give their body or they have sexual wounds from the past or their husband maybe has wounded them.

That is not a covenant celebration. And so I think it's really important that we say what God is calling us to in the larger picture of love. Remember, 1 Corinthians 13 is in the same letter as 1 Corinthians 7. Love is patient. Love is kind. Love is not envy or boast.

It's long suffering. All those things apply to how we remember our covenant together, how we learn to celebrate together, which is a long journey of communication, of grace, of mercy that needs to be read into the context of how we apply something like 1 Corinthians 7. I mean, this is a beautiful picture of God's design, God's intent, God's hope. And then you have two very imperfect people coming together, maybe not have even grown up in the church or maybe they did, but they're still damaged and they come together so damaged, so broken, so skewed in their view of sexuality, their view of God. Help us. Like, help that listener that's like, okay, I was raped. I've been abused. My husband is addicted to porn.

Where do we even start? And it may not even be that extreme. It could be anywhere along that continuum. Our marriage isn't very good, and so our intimacy physically isn't good. You know, one thing I think we need to take note of is the mutuality Paul talks about in this passage, which was not at all— Unheard of.

Yes. I mean, for him to say, start with the men. You have the duty to meet your wife's sexual needs. That doesn't always mean to give her sex.

For most women, it means study her, nurture her, make this a safe environment, help her discover her sexual response. And then it says about the wife's duty to the husband. And so this mutuality is so often missed in the way this is taught, and that's a great place to start.

I just want to echo that. The same thing's true about Ephesians 5. We read that and think, wow, what Paul's saying to women, oh man, that is tough.

I don't know. He is really harping on women in that passage. Actually, he's harping on men, because what he said to men was radical. That did not fit the cultural context. What did he say?

Well, he told men to love their wives as Christ loved the church and gave themselves— You know what, Ron? Okay, wait a minute. She just wanted to hear you say that. She did. She did. I know what she was doing. I'm like, she knows exactly what it says.

I just want listeners to know. Julie used a word a minute ago, demand. Can you imagine 1 Corinthians 13 being read with, okay, you get to demand out of your spouse, breakfast in bed, peeled grapes, sex whenever you want it, sex how you want it, that they would serve your schedule rather than you ever having— Can you imagine us reading 1 Corinthians 13 with that tone, but we read 1 Corinthians 7 with it, demand your spouse give you sex, because it's their duty to fulfill that obligation.

No. Read 1 Corinthians 7 as, okay, me as a husband who's trying to die for my wife the way Christ died for the church, and by the way, I'm part of the church, so the way Christ died for me, I don't demand. I'm the guy who gives. You woo. I'm the guy who serves.

I'm the guy who woos. That's what I'm after, is how do I lose myself in this relationship so that I love and give to her. Now, bring that attitude into, yes, I do have a responsibility to my wife sexually. What does that look like for us?

I don't know. That's something she and I have to figure out as a part of our us-ness, but I'm serving our us-ness by being responsible with my sexual being and what I bring to the equation. As soon as we turn it into what do I demand out of you and what rights do I have, we totally flip the passage upside down and we've lost the meaning. We are not the first generation or the first civilization in human history to get God's design for sexuality wrong. And yet, our desire should always be to want God to be glorified in how we express both purity and appropriate biblical sexuality in marriage.

That's what Ron Deal and Julie Slattery have been talking with us about this week. Julie has actually written a very helpful book on this subject called Rethinking Sexuality, God's Design and Why It Matters. It's a book that I think every married couple would benefit from reading together and talking about. We've got copies of Julie's book in our Family Life Today Resource Center. You can order it from us online at familylifetoday.com or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to request a copy of Julie's book.

Again, the title is Rethinking Sexuality by Dr. Julie Slattery. Order online at familylifetoday.com or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to get a copy. Julie is going to be with us on the Love Like You Mean It Marriage Cruise in February. If you're not already signed up for the cruise, let me encourage you to get more information.

Go online at familylifetoday.com and find out more about the Love Like You Mean It Marriage Cruise. And then as you've listened to today's program, you may have thought of someone who you know might benefit from hearing Family Life Today and this topic being addressed. Encourage them to go to familylifetoday.com and find the link to the Family Life Podcast so they can listen to Dave and Ann and Julie and Ron and this discussion. You know, this issue of purity is something that here at Family Life we have been encouraging moms and dads to be engaging with their children about from an early age. In fact, there's a resource we've developed called Passport to Purity that many of you have used to help introduce your kids to issues related to sexuality, dating, peer pressure, the kinds of things they're going to face during adolescence. David Robbins, who's the president of Family Life, is here with me. And David, you just had the opportunity to go out on a Passport to Purity getaway with one of your kids, right?

That's right. It was actually my third kid, which is crazy to me that they're growing up that fast. But what I love about this resource is that it presents biblical principles in a way that sets up hard conversations like peer pressure and pornography and the reality of where babies come from in a way that gives a great connection between a parent and a kid. And each time we've gone through it, I have cherished the depth of bonding that happens between me and my child, where, sure, my kid told me, you know, Dad, this is a little weird.

But at the same time, he just he left just beaming at that time going, Dad, thanks for this time together. And I'm so glad I can come to you to ask questions that I have. I believe you when you say you're up for any question and you'd want me to hear from from you as a parent, not just from what my friends are saying, who may not know as much. And and we have an opportunity to shape our kids. And this resource was so fun to do yet again.

And I got to see the value of it firsthand. Yeah, the thing parents have said to us for years is that passport to purity opens up the dialog. It sets up the opportunity for parents to talk with young teens about what's ahead for them in this area. And I just encourage our listeners, if you have not taken a 10 or 11, 12, 13 year old child on a two day getaway where you can go through this content with them and help them get ready for the avalanche of pressure they're about to feel when it comes to all kinds of issues. Passport to purity is a great resource. There's more information about it on our website at familylifetoday.com.

You can go there to order or if you have any questions, call us at 1-800-FL-TODAY. Speaking of adolescents, one of the issues that kids are facing in adolescence these days is the issue of bullying both live and in person, also cyberbullying. Tomorrow, Dave and Ann Wilson talk with Jonathan McKee about what we can be doing as parents to help our kids know how to respond either when they're being bullied or when they see a friend who's being bullied. Hope you can join us for that. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Bob Lapine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.