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October 21, 2021 2:00 am
Our world is full of sexually broken people. Juli Slattery and Ron Deal share a balanced message to encourage help and healing.
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So one of the first times that we got to know each other and we are sitting down for long discussion be shared openly about how we had failed in our purity and you had a history and I had a history and then you make a comment but you know I'm just time to marry a virgin and I remember driving home being so filled with shame and regret because I thought I will never be able to marry someone like Dave Wilson who was a godly man.
Welcome to family life today where we might help you to the relationships that matter most and Wilson Wilson and you can find a sick family life today.com or on our family life Family life today before waiting we shared how we came to know Jesus. We shared our vision for our lives in. I was only 18 and you were 21 so we are young, but man I knew I wanted to follow Jesus, but we had also shared openly about how we had failed in our purity. Even Joe not with each other. Yes, yeah, but with other people are just sharing our past history and then he said to me that you know I'm just time to marry a virgin and I was so quick to be on the defense because I'm like you hypocrite, you just scared all the stuff that you've done and mind you, I had just shared all mine, but suddenly I would not be good enough for you even though Jesus had cleanse me from my sin, but you couldn't and I was so mad at you do remember this remember much about the curses I do because I'm just an idiot. I now can hear it and feel your shame. You know, in the moment, never even thinking that there would be shame felt by anyone special you know my wife but yeah that is exactly what you feel like I blew it and therefore I'm never going to be clean again. You know that some of the problem with some of the teaching that is been in the church. I think I've even done it in years past, about sexuality and God's heart for sex. And so we need to have a discussion about this and we said enough about us now ready to hear from Ron Diehl and Dr. Julie Slattery who are in the studio with this and continuing a conversation about life for you guys know as much as anybody. This is important stuff isn't just sex. It's so much bigger now it's really a spiritual walk with God and sexism big part of that. It's not separate I'm preaching to the quiet Julie welcome back again with I think you every Julie spend your days in your ministry. You've written a book on rethinking sexuality.
We could let you just go right into that authentic intimacy just the title of your podcast or your is it a podcast.
It's a ministry that podcast shabbily. Julie vessel say this real quick about authentic intimacy and then runs over here.
Mr. blended family. Family life. Dr. believe what all of us have a heart for understanding this, so Julie start with you when you hear us even talk about that conversation early in our relationship. What hit you about it just hurts my heart and I think one thing I've learned of the last decade administering on sexual issues is that every sexual issues is also a spiritual issue and so only talk about sex and we talked about our wounds and the messaging that kind goes wrong, even from the church.
When we think about sex wrongly think about God wrong and even what you are reflecting and is in my pillar and my clean and my worthy.
If this godly man can embrace me. Does God embrace me and so these conversations are essential we see today really thousands and thousands of young adults deconstructing from the Christian faith, primarily because of sexual pain really. Yes yes hello what you say primarily yes it is well because I talked to them and I hear their stories and I read their books and listen to their podcasts, lettuces, sexual issue like I followed the purity culture.
I married a pastor who cheated on me and broke my heart or I follow the purity culture message save sex for marriage and sex is horrible. It's been painful. Our whole marriage or I never got married guy never brought that husband and so I think we have to handle these conversations with so much care because were not just talking about sex were talking about God's heart for people and what it means to be loved by him and called by him what redemption looks like no you also think because you had a really strong argument that when we get sex wrongly good God wrong. Do you think when we get sex right. It really helps us understand God correctly. Yes, I think Scriptures really clear about that God story of sex is that he created sexuality to be a powerful earthly experience to teach us about the nature of how he loves us and so when I see people get healing and redemption sexually their connection to God become so much more personal and intimate.
And so we want to see God reclaim this in people's life. So were understood there were there. I know you have thoughts or you know we talked about this previously but it was just a quick once the purity culture because we want understand that in the nosedive in the some Scripture because some of that was based on some truths that might've been maybe misunderstood you before recap.just additional thought for sure the God of the universe, father, son and Holy Spirit, and you're about to create and you're going to make these humans and you want to make them in your image and you are a intimate communion of love.
Three somehow one full unity full cooperation companionship and self giving to one another and you want to make them in your image. What you do well you create in them and ability to be one. And for that oneness to create new life.
You give them the ability to do and replicate who you are, so their bodily experience of sexuality teaches them about intimacy teaches them about knowing and being known in a way that you can't just communicate with words and accomplish. You give them something physical that they can actually experience that's just the beginning of of a theology of sex that just only gets us started into the conversation and Ron is I hear you say that eventually what you've painted is this beautiful picture is the intention of his love of God and so if you're the enemy of wouldn't you want to totally annihilate beautiful vision he has to and that a person is not sexually broken at some level, who hasn't gotten some wrong teaching and thinking experience of this that is skewed their perspective. Would you guys I'll say that of your kids as well. Ocean are absolutely well absolutely no matter how much we try to protect them. Which brings us to the purity culture because that's what we were trying to do is protect her kids. We were trying to help them see some good things about God and his design for sex and it was really well intended and yet we overdid it. I think we just programmed it, we we got controlling about it in some way interfere interfere you know and it's almost like we created threats that we did need to create and give promises that we couldn't keep threats like man. If you do this you like this rose let's pass around the sun was beating and then you're the one who's been used and abused, and this is you, and by the way, that one of the that Rose was literally done absolute as one resembling a neutralizer is not about they literally pass arose around it was prescribed in youth groups all over the country were you fast as the intent was good right but the mechanism created a different message. We create threats because we want to scare you into a defense like that's going to work and then the other thing we do is make promises that we really couldn't keep it if you if you do this and you remain a virgin and boy you going to kiss to your wedding day then euro have a happy married sex life of children like everything Cisco role from that point forward again. I think what we've said here is, you know, in moments where we really want to influence our kids around things that we really believe in our importance. It's easy to kind of reduce it down into something where we create these threats and promises.
And so I really understand how it happened. I think now the important thing is that were talking about how, but what were the messages that were really good and right and how we lift those up for the next generation.
And even as Julie keeps reminding me for everyone now who has some measure of brokenness something in us that was just a little tainted by what we heard, 20, 30 years ago or yesterday yeah and you know is as we know, much of the discussion in teaching on purity came from the New Testament, the men from various places, but there was us a passage that I taught as a pastor as a chaplain led him back and never sit down to dryland players who are single and soon here's here's the goal and I went to first Corinthians 7 song and read it and I like you to do to make some comments on it because again Ron, you're right. Really there is a lot of good that was taught out of this passage and even run when you are setting up the way you describe the Trinity and then creating sex is a dispute it gave me another way to visualize outside while we have taught on this for decades have never thought of it like that and that it is I think about this passage, Mike. This passage makes a lot of sense and that perspective like this is an unbelievably beautiful gift that were trying to just help you carefully protect Sola treated and that I love to hear your comments.
Paul wrote in first printing seven verse one as is now for the matters you wrote about so obviously it was a hot topic than to this is a new, it is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman, but since sexual immorality is occurring. Each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife and likewise the wife to her husband, the wife does not have authority over her own body, but yields it to her husband in the same way the husband does not have authority over his own body, but yields it to his wife do not deprive each other, except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. I know you've read this taught this study. This many times as you hear it now read in this conversation. What comes your mind what kind of things we need the think about what I think. First we have to understand, and you understand this is a pastor that this was not written in chapters. It's a whole letter as a matter effectively rewind into first Corinthians 6 Paul is talking about how you were bought with a price.
Therefore honor God with your bodies he's talking about sexuality to everything you do is sexuality has a spiritual ramification what you eat doesn't really matter what we do with your body sexually, spiritually matters your body's attempt. Yes, that is the Holy Spirit yeah and there's something significant about her sexuality and so we take that in context and if you keep reading in first contains seven. Paul then instructs singles about their sexuality. So we have to understand that this instruction is within the context of the whole letter and is also responding to something specific that the Corinthians were asking about that. We don't really know.
Again, one of the dangers here. Just like with purity culture is taking a piece of Scripture and building a whole theology out of one piece without seeing it in the context of everything else that Scripture teaches about sex, about marriage, about love and so there's some beautiful pieces in this passage, but if you only read this passage without the context. Here's what you hear. Sex is a really bad thing and so God created marriage to control it. If you want to control your sexuality. You owe each other sex you owe it to your spouse at your duty and if you don't give it to them and saints can attempt them and they will send sexually. We've heard that from the pulpit. Now I've met my pulpit know that is really the messages that again if you just read it at face value without putting into context.
You can see how people get there, which is extremely dangerous both in the message singles as well as the application of that to marriage.
So we got a lot of unpacking to do the how do we you know understand this passage and others.
Of course the correct way of understanding, healthy, godly view of it because it's an awesome beautiful gift from God.
How do we get there. So in verse one. There's a question that the people inquire their asking apparently some is going around teaching you know what this whole physical body thing is something we should just avoid so even sex with your spouse just don't even do that because you're engaging the flesh, and you want to run away from the flesh, and you just want to be wrapped up into the spiritual things sort of a Gnostic right view of the exotically and he's addressing that any saying this is a good thing this is created by God. And this is something that you share with one another.
I'm really curious about the language when he says should give to his wife. ESV says her conjugal rights and likewise wife gives her husband conjugal rights throughout the entire Old Testament covenant of marriage.
You made a promise to give food, clothing, and conjugal rights that was in their wedding vows. That's how they articulated what they were going to do for one another and it was metaphorical.
Paul is referencing one of those conjugal rights is he actually using the language Hebrew people. The Jewish people would've been very familiar with this language. By the way, historians have followed food, clothing, and conjugal rights all the way up till today and for us it's love, honor, and cherish so he saying you made a vow.
This is a part of a relationship. This is something that's good and right and God is created it to be such. It's a part of the sexual intimate relationship of knowing each other and coming to know God through your sexuality. So, yes, be responsible to one another, engage one another insects. It's not out of duty, as in all my gosh I hate this. This is a horrible awful thing and you just have to do it even if you don't want to is not that it always. I have a heart of love and sacrifice and giving to one another. This is a part of your commitment to one another. So there's a responsibility there but it's not begrudgingly having to do sex. That's not what is teaching in all its beautiful. The paint that contacts the historical context.
I know one thing that is really help me understand this passage and so much else about sex is really going back to that idea that when a husband and wife get married.
They are echoing the covenant love of God and God's covenant love to us has all different elements to it. It has his faithfulness to us. It has this journey of intimate knowing of us knowing him more and him and he intimately involved with us.
It has sacrificing for. I sin I sacrificing for him laying down our lives for him as he did for us, but it also has this aspect of passionate celebration. So when we worship together is the bride of Christ in church or in personal gatherings, or even in her own devotional time. There is a time to celebrate our covenant with the Lord with singing with dancing with joy and in essence sex is that piece of the covenant. It's the bodily celebration. Remembering the covenant love we have and Tim Keller says it like this. He says when you have sex as a married couple. It's like a covenant renewal ceremony you doing with your body, what you promised to do with your whole life and when you read first Corinthians 7. In that context, what is really saying is don't neglect this covenant celebration that even within our bodies, the oxytocin, the dopamine, endorphins that happened during sex are a beautiful way of recharging or intimacy, reminding us of the vows he made even in our bodies, but that also means that we minister to one another and so there are so many situations where simply having sex is actually wounding for a couple, particularly for women when they read first contains 70 here that taught and they give their body when they're not ready to give their body or they have sexual wounds from the past where there husband maybe has blended them.
That is not a covenant celebration and so I think it's really important that we say what God is calling us to in the larger picture of love. Remember first Corinthians 13 is in the same letters.
First Corinthians 7.
Love is patient, love is kind left is not and the ballast. It's long-suffering, all those things apply to how we remember a covenant together how we learn to celebrate together which is a long journey of communication, of grace and mercy that needs to be read into the context of how we apply something like first contains seven mean this is a beautiful picture of God's design. God's intent. God's hope and then you have two very imperfect people coming together, maybe not have even grown up in the church.
Or maybe they did, but they're still damaged and they come together so damage so broken, so skewed in their view of sexuality, their view of God help us like help that listener and this like okay I was raped and abused.
I husband is addicted to porn where do we even start and it may not even be that extreme right anywhere along the continuum where marriage isn't very good and so are intimacy physically is good you one thing I think we need to take note of is the mutuality, Paul talks about in this passage, which was not heard of. Yes, I me for him to say start with the man you have the duty to meet your wife sexual needs doesn't always mean to give her sex. For most women it means study her nurture her make this a safe environment. Help her discover her sexual response, and then it says about the wife's duty to the husband and so this mutuality is so often missed in the way this is Todd and that's a great place to start. I just want to echo that same thing is true about Ephesians 5 we read that and think, wow, what Paul saying the women all man that is stuff I don't know. He is really harping on women in that passage actually is harping on meant what he said.
The men was radical that did not fit the culture, what you say what he told men to love their wives as Christ loved the church, you know themselves okay. Click what Liz wanted to hear you say is you is there would like she knows exactly what it said I just want listeners to know generally use the word medical demand.
Can you imagine first grandsons 13 B and read with okay you get the demand on your spouse breakfast in bed, peeled grapes, you sex whatever you want it sex how you want it, you know that they would serve your schedule rather than you ever have an can you imagine us reading first grandsons 13 with that tone, but we read first convince up with it. Demand your spouse give you sex because that's their duty to fulfill that obligation. No reinforcement in seven as okay me as a husband who's trying to die for my wife the way Christ died for the church and by the way, I'm part of the church, whether way Christ died for me.
I don't demand. I'm the guy who gives undergoes serves on the guy whose that's what I'm after is how do I lose myself in this relationship so that I love and give to her.
Now bring that attitude into yes I do have a responsibility to my wife sexually was that look like for us.
I don't know what will that something she and I have to figure out as a part of our awesomeness, but I'm serving our arsonist by being responsible with my sexual being and what I bring to the equation soon as we turn it into what would demand out to you.
What rights do I have, we totally flipped the passage upside down blossoming or not generation or the first civilization in human history to get God's design for sexuality wrong and yet our desire should always be to want God to be glorified in how we express both purity and appropriate biblical sexuality in marriage.
That's what Ron Diehl and Julie Slattery have been talking with us about this week. Julie has actually written a very helpful book on the subject called rethinking sexuality.
God's design and why it matters, it's a book that I think every married couple would benefit from reading together and talking about. We've got copies of Julie's book in our family like today resource Center you can order it from us on mama family life today.com or you can call one 800 FL today to request a copy of Julie's book again. The title is rethinking sexuality by Dr. Julie Slattery order email@example.com or call one 800 FL today to get a copy. Julie is going to be with us on the love like to be that marriage cruise in February. If you're not already signed up for the cruise.
Let me encourage you to get more information on why the family left today.com and find out more about the love like you me that marriage cruise and then as you listen to today's program. You may have thought of someone who you know might benefit from hearing family like today on this topic being addressed.
Encourage them to go to family life today.com and find the link to the family like podcasts so they can listen today when I am Julie and Ron and this discussion you know this issue. Purity is something that your family life.
We have been encouraging moms and dads to be engaging with their children about from an early age vectors a resource we've developed called passport to purity that many of you have used.
To help introduce your kids to issues related to sexuality, dating peer pressure of the kinds of things are gonna face during adolescence.
David Robbins was the personal family life is here with me on David, you just have the opportunity to go out on a passport to purity getaway with one of your kids right that's right is actually my third year which is crazy to me with her growing up that fast. But what I love about this resource is that it presents biblical principles in a way that that sets up hard conversations like peer pressure and pornography and the reality of where babies come from. In a way that that gives a great connection between a parent and a kid and each time we've gone through it.
I have cherished the depth of bonding that happens between me and my child where sure my kid told me you no doubt this is a little weird but at the same time he just he left is beaming that time Gaudet thanks for this time together and I'm so glad I can come to you to ask questions that I have believe you when you say you're up for any question and you want me to hear from from you is apparently not just from what my friends are saying and who may not know as much in and we have an opportunity to shape her kids in this resource was so fun to do yet again and I got to see the value of it first and the other thing parents have said to us for years is that passport to purity opens up the dialogue. It sets up the opportunity for parents to talk with young teens about what's ahead for them in this area and I just encourage your listers. If you have not taken a 10 or 1112 13-year-old child today getaway where you can go through this content with them and help them get ready for the avalanche of pressure there about the field when it comes to all kinds of missions passport to purity is a great resource.
There's more information about our website a family like today.com you can go there to order or if you have any questions call us at one 800 FL today.
Speaking of adolescents, one of the issues that kids are facing in adolescence these days is the usual bullying both live and in person. Also, cyber bullying tomorrow. David and Wilson talk with Jonathan McKee about what we can be doing this. Parents to help our kids know how to respond either when they're being bullied or when they see a friend who's being bullied, you can join us for about on behalf of our hosts Dave and Ann Wilson on Bob Lapine see you back tomorrow for another edition of family life today family like today is a production of family accrue ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most