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More Mormon Exaltation Dilemmas, Pt. 3 (w/ Aaron Shafovaloff)

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September 26, 2021 12:01 am

More Mormon Exaltation Dilemmas, Pt. 3 (w/ Aaron Shafovaloff)

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September 26, 2021 12:01 am

In this episode, Matthew the Nuclear Calvinist and the Apostate Paul wrap up their conversation with Aaron Shafovaloff. Here they discuss a number of dilemmas that Aaron has documented but not yet written into article form. Our goal here is to think through LDS theology, taking it out to its logical conclusions. We hope you enjoy this episode.

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Your right and him and fireflies look back to our brightness from warming to Jesus this week. Are you are third and final installment of her conversation with Earnshaw Wallace we had him on to discuss his article dilemmas of Mormon exultation and in this installment. We cover a number of dilemmas that he has documented but not yet written into article form. We hope you enjoy this final installment with Aaron give us a shout out if you like it, feel free to join me how to buy this Facebook group and discuss the episode with other listeners and one is that if if I copied Ricky problem.

If you have baseball team is always somebody in a baseball team. That's the most and least experienced disease.

Ricky you know he's as always if you have the morning universe are always people are becoming gods. There's always one person who has the least been at it.

He has either the Brigham model where all the gods are always progressing all of their attributes in that model you have at least one God who is at the bottom of the escalator was recently exulted as a God. And yet relative to all the gods outside of himself is the least glorious or if you're using them modern dominant LDS model of external progression in your you know your Dominion expansions. There's always one deity who has can I start restart you incrementally. 12345 is always one deity that who has the least amount of dominion among all the gods so you have in either dominant woman model it either.

The models major models you have a least high while the gods who supposedly supposed to be called by spirit children the most high, to the most Ricky most Junior most freshman least I got hot, and that's a problem is this.

Kids are supposed to cut this a dagger. The most high of all the gods. Problem is, you have a God who's been exulted for like two minutes pass Mormons kind of play with language here is a well as soon as the God is exalted, he you know becomes about time.

That's nonsense. If you if you are exulted and you sequence toward progress toward increment toward exultation. There was a time that you are not God and there is a time when you are exulted as Scott will like two minutes after exultation supposedly does God is supposed to be able to say I have been the most high God from all eternity to all eternity. Run 18. I've been unchangeable.

The same God from all eternity to all eternity so that this is the dilemma of of fairly inexperienced 12 a God who is known who is just arrived on the scene is telling everyone he's always been God them either having like a kid saying no my dad to beat up your dad, and my God is greater than aircraft and yeah like if you're the child of God know after he's progressed a little while, you know, it would seem like you inherit more, rather than you know if you're the child of the rookie God he doesn't have much to leave to you to inherit so there's all kinds of things go on with the he at least doesn't have as much as others and you know how do we know our God isn't the most junior of all the exulted God's can I do want to go to the doctor that just squeaked his way a school where I mean they could say will he's learned enough to be you know completely bit of a capable benefactor to us. Okay will grant that for the sake of argument, he still the least of all the gods he still relative to all the other got the least experienced divine doctor.

Now this is and then there's the LDS Holy Ghost is a negative down the ladder. Yeah these guys. Sort of like they achieve this sort of pre-exultation godhood they can circumvent the system they are able to achieve something happy like a giant. They hacked the system so it really raises the question of if if if Jesus for example was the firstborn son someone mistake that is chronological. Firstborn son treated differently but if if Jesus was able to become God in some significant, meaningful sense.

Prior to his incarnation, and how was he able to do that and not us. And if you really dig deep you think oh well. Mormons will say that those who died in infancy. A lot of Mormons say this is not universal will save other guaranteed exultation will why because they sufficiently prove their worthiness and pre-mortality. So you're saying there's some subset of spirits, and pre-mortality that were good enough not to live a full human existence that it needs a scenic I get a body for two minutes, dying in the and they're good there there that their future secure so there's some subset of spirits, and pre-mortality that given enough time were able, and so you really have a two track model there.

It's really not you eat, you really got different paths is essentially to the Godhead there and you have these gods who were able to do it without sinning. Will talk about that in the second and gods who weren't and and so you really have it all and I guess let us expand on her quickly and this is when I this is the dilemma I've pressed more than any others in the context… Never send and avast was heavenly father once.

Perhaps the sinful mortal before he was exulted as a God was heavenly father.

Perhaps once a sinful mortal before he was exulted as a God.

In light of as man is God once was a Scottish. They may be in about one third of Latter Day Saints will say no and two thirds of Latter Day Saints say either yes or probably or maybe or who knows.

Doesn't matter can think it will confidently say that heavenly father was was not center and so you have this dilemma of well if if if we can become God's and were sinners. How do we know heavenly father wasn't one of the sinners that became a God and some Mormons will say will maybe he was more like Jesus. While there's different Latter Day Saints approaches to John 519 know this.

Different BYU professors at different different positions on how you interpret John 519. In light of Angel thought this course. But whatever the case if you're if you're affirming that some gods were once sinners and other gods weren't. You have a two-tier you have a you have you have units like some gods of a better resume than others, like my deity never send a deity that you delegated other domain in the late morning.

Multi-verse our God used to be a sinner and receive the blood of the Savior, and so you got this problem of the superior and inferior deity resumes also got the problem is really interesting Mormons in seems to promote this idea well if you really extrapolated outwards like every generation of the gods has a firstborn son who doesn't send, and who then plays out his mortal life and in his repeats well. It's almost like there's a special class of deities and some Mormons think our heavenly father is a counterpart of this premier Royal special subset line of sinless saviors that it's an elite squad of deities that never sinned, and they played the role the sinless Savior, but others that become God's it's most like big rats.

Others graduated to godhood but not how you say it the we get special honors comes out of Audi have yet to come.

Laddie come out yet. It's like some deities graduated with special honors, and some didn't. Can if I become an exulted God, can I have access to other deities other than mice to direct superiors. Do I live in a community with other deities is a Leica is like a guild or you do have relational access to deities that are prior to my deity, so can I go visit my spirit uncles or heavenly great-grandfather will fight if I am at the feet of my heavenly great-grandfather can I learn from him. Can I can I derive knowledge and power and give teens an glory from heavenly great-grandfather and not directly from heavenly father work at night can I get that kind of benefit from some spiritual cousin out there from living in the community of all the gods and so you have this problem where like your your your receiving some sort of goodness into you that didn't come not even directly from heavenly father in that model for your having to say that there's some sort of hermetically sealed relational boundary where you're only allowed to get the good things that you get from your direct ancestor that you can go visit your your spirit uncle in heaven but not allowed to receive any gifts or benefits are knowledge and power from him. Otherwise, you know heavenly father doesn't have the right to claim that all good things to you were from him. There's related to others. There's the dilemma that there is exultation in the highest level of the celestial kingdom is the best there is right but you are able to go and sit at the feet of your heavenly grandfather and learn from him what what could you conceivably learn from him that you would not already have and if you could conceivably learn from him something that you would not already have is an exulted God in the highest level of celestial kingdom than the highest level, the celestial kingdom is not the best that there is now a lot of this is presupposing the can break a model bring my model of all the gods are always progressing all of their attributes yeah that's that's kinda what I was going to say is that I think election as an LDS I probably say well you know when we reach the status of exulted being will will have all knowledge and just like autos as others are really anything left to learn per se so you know, maybe that's how a lot of flabby six master if you go that route. If you say that you max out in all your internal attributes that all the exulted gods are equal in all of their internal attributes, then you have to deny that we eternally progress in the sense that most matters and you have to agree you have to concede that the classical Christians have a more robust eternal progression Mormons do because we have available to us the infinitude of God from which to draw you no benefit. We also have a question of who you might say, incubates or collects or organizes all the pre-spirit intelligences. Is there some sort of governing authority is there.

You know is there is some like you know I'm a strict analogy for this is a big electric sci-fi movies right now.

If it the time variance authority from Loki.

Yeah guys there some sort of late counsel of the gods. That is deciding ammunition is earlier. The matchmaking system adoption matchmaking services between intelligences in the spirit. Couples are polygamist units that adopts intelligences for the bequeathing of the spirit body. If the matchmaker connects individual intelligences with the gods if if there is a matchmaker that it really raises the question of why are we worshiping the matchmaker is sounds like he's like you got a supremacy that other deities don't. If there's no particular matchmaker answers, no necessary reason why the matchmaker matched the matches happen the way they happened, then you have to say that the matches between particular deity units God heads or nuclear family deity units are polygamist unions or cares that they got matched up with certain intelligences. It becomes accidental random like OUP heavenly father rolled the dice and he got you and that doesn't sound very loving her personal we mentioned proportionately infinitesimal infinitesimal domain.

So skip that there is the question of whether the gods are a first in the Brigham model. If you're still progressing in the attributes that must matter. Do they learn at different rates. So if Matthew not, both become God's. And I like start out ahead of Matthew in Matthew sort of catch up to me and can he accelerate faster than I do it in his progression and it utterly would, but I would not. So if there's different rates of progression and if you can convince that decelerated accelerated different rates of progression or even if you take the external progression model dominions billowed and in the US are asking. Can you go do you necessarily have to expand your own dominion through what's directly given to you from heavenly father or can you go and get and collect from the chaotic multi-verse and expand your own universe authors different rates of internal or external progression. It starts to raise questions of whether a God who was once behind. Another deity can surpass that deity and God's cancer of catch up to each other and surpass each other than it starts to raise the question of in certain models of belt is progression. Could I someday surpass that of heavenly father if he doesn't have to be the conduit of everything good that I received if I can go outside of him. If I can graduate matured and become independent and and improve myself using other sources of of other benefactors then and it raises the question of whether someday heavenly father would say this is interesting because Latter Day Saints is like. They appeal to the father-son analogy and they say don't you want your son to become just like you and they use that as a an appeal for deification and one exultation well if you if you push that metaphor out and on earth I want my son to become better than I want my son to become a much better person than I ever was much more successful, much more. You just and always I want my son to become going to surpass me and billow my foundation to become even better than I ever was. So if you play out. That metaphor know why wouldn't heavenly father want his sons and daughters to surpass what he is someday raced ahead at a different accelerated rate of progression. We mentioned that the villain of God's who fall gods who can exercise libertarian free will to sin and all the all that would come of that Mormons speak of the power of the atonement when they deal with the issue of whether heavenly father was once the center perhaps allow Latter Day Saints will just say well that's why we have the power of the atonement in them and I think will whose atonement because of heavenly father was once a sinful mortal it would not be Jesus who lived who had who paid for his sins. It would been in Brigham's model, at least the Savior of a prior generation of the gods of the different it would ask if spirit uncle. I think I'll I forget how relationships work.

It would have been some other Savior executing another power of the atonement. So power of the atonement in that cosmos multi-verse system is it being this abstract idea of many saviors in achieving power of atonement for their particular jurisdictions.

Now what really threw me off. I was talking about this loaded with henna Syriac, she might be good dialogue partner she's she's super clear and over about theology which I appreciated about her. So I had two interviews with her on the YouTube channel. First one had terrible audio and the second would be to become a read it with better audio and what threw me off is that she spoke of an LDS position, not the LDS position certain O'Connell's position that there is in it and LDS position that Jesus is atonement because it has a retroactive effect and has an expansive effect on other planets, other children, some Latter Day Saints.

I assume this is like one or two she made it she made it known to me that there some Latter Day Saints of the position that Jesus is atonement would've had a retroactive effect, even to heavenly father's. Perhaps past sinful indiscretions.

So I that's that's kinda getting more friends than the fringe of the French, but makes you think about that the gospel that he would've believed in the saved him was that maybe someday he would become a God and have a child that would save yeah in that model. Yeah guys is that either way, you either. Either he has a different Savior pain for his sins or he has some future Savior pay for his sins or maybe his great great great grandchild is someday going to pay for his sins.

You know you Latter Day Saints you really don't want to make Jesus is atonement limited in its scope. So they try to push on this fact. As long as they can white as they can on this one. This one has forever. Just for me this discipline.

I will never stop being sucker punched by like at this one just blows me away. I talk to Latter Day Saints about whether heavenly father was once perhaps a sinful mortal, and though say well if he was a sinner. We should treat him as though he never sinned, because his God would have forgiven him, and when a God. When God forgives sin. He remembers it no more. And so I cannot push this out and wait.

We really mean by that, like, because when we use that language we use the language to mean that he's not holding it against us. It's not that we literally forget about he literally forgets that he saved us.

It's not that we its like mission with the men in black for you just got gets the zap and he forgets that we ever send it's that he forgives us and is gracious and he doesn't condemn us, and he doesn't hold a desiccants that he is a hold hold over us. We look back at that time and we say God was so good. Amazing Grace. That's is how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me.

We remember being wretch is God. Remember that and but we remember that he showed amazing grace to us in that since he remembered her sin no more. He removed it from us but know some Latter Day Saints push this out and they argue that heavenly father. His sins are literally forgotten. So if there was a deponent where he was a sinful mortal it's been scrubbed from the memory of the gods it's been removed from the history books. The book heavenly father's browser history has been cleared such that no gods and no descendents will ever know that he was ever a sinner. So, we should treat him as though we should operate as though he never was a sinner and it's almost like Annette in that model you have God's own children graciously treating him like he never was the center which is interesting because it's like God.

Even if you want Rent-A-Center I'll treat you like you were, even if you were a sinner. I'll treat you like you worked which is where you have your inferior creation. Now released her spirit. Kids upward. Being gracious to the heavenly father like ridges, government, us never to operate as though you never was a person or that it's really it's God's domain to not hold sin against us is our domain not hold sin against our neighbors. It's not our domain to be gracious toward God. God doesn't need grace. If God is in.

If God is eternally progressing specially in his internal attributes in the Brigham model. I think Eugene England also held this view, then that means that God has infinite dormant potential that his potential will never be fully and exhaustively actualized there something that could be better within him forever and they don't they will be potential in him that never if the fee if a progression is truly eternal and with the respect to internal attributes within God means different ways you can spin this.

He could say will maybe he has the potential in him to be what he ever will be. So Nikes you have infinite dormant. It potential. It's never tapped because it's never exhausted. Or you could say will maybe potential is being added to God by his superiors that he is in his progression. He is he is he is additively acquiring more potential, okay, but the nevus got more issues with like that Brigham my model of dispensing downward potential downstream trickle-down theory kind of it. If you have to say.

I mean it just makes God with martini like he not only needs his potential actualized. He needs his potential PP needs more potential and and that's something I could say about me have a creature the I'm okay talking about that about me and not okay and the Mormons are typically okay for the latent Christian conscience talking that way about God and it is back to what you're saying earlier about the always moving on the escalator right that there's that there's a hunger that would there would have to be a hungry bear, the recognition that cash is just not, I'm just not what I want to be or could be, you know the kind of recognition that we have right and if God is experiencing that how can I be satisfied in God ultimately who he is now is not sufficient for my final contentment and satisfaction that God is not infinite. He is not ultimately satisfying. That makes God to be very boring if he's not infinite, and in this full sense.

If you Mormons say they because second Peter and they say hey, Peter says we can be partakers of the divine nature through the promises of God. Now it's ripped out of context is that this at bay, they conclude from this that God we can become gods in the fools since we can become equal with God, or we can be on the escalator with God while the LDS approach will firstly the Christian approach to this passage is that for the promises of God. We can be. We can escape the corruption of the world and the sin of the flesh, the sinful flesh so that in the context of second Peter, this isn't about becoming omnipotent. This is about becoming virtuous and it's interesting as this is about partaking that happens in this life with which we have our calling and election made sure that it is. There's so many landmines in this passages in this passage from Mormonism because they don't teach we can have our lip calling election made sure except for a select few in the LDS faith there. Assuming there in the room.

What they're really doing is there is something that God himself is a partaker of someone else's divine nature.

What what they're not what they're not grokking to use a programmer term, the term is that for Christians. God doesn't partake in another God's nature. God isn't who he is, in virtue of participating in someone else's divinity. What makes God special is that he is life in himself.

He has life in himself. He is life in himself. He doesn't have his attributes merely he is is that it's and he is the source of everything good, true and beautiful that's breathtaking that's beautiful that's that is owing that that provokes worship so in second Peter says we become partakers of the divine nature were becoming partakers virtuously through knowledge and added virtue not of faith, progressively and incrementally were partaking in the divine nature of someone who himself doesn't need to partake in anyone else's divine nature. So if you reason from the passage I can become like God fully will you need to think clearly that that's like saying through partaking, I can become the kind of being that never had to partake in another. It's like saying I can learn to become someone who never had to learn to become someone or I can inherit the status of never having to inherited anything or I can.

I can achieve a power that never needed to be achieved if it is not thinking clearly when Christians think about partaking or participating in the divine nature were participating as creatures finitely in the infinite nature and we are we are enjoying this as creatures were not were not becoming the kind of being that never had to be about becoming we Artie talked about how the LDS system. God isn't really truly our father, especially the BH Robertson Joseph Smith models is not really we don't really are very being her or core eternal existence or fundamental personhood gap. We can't thank him for giving us right, arc or core identity or personhood of this is been mentioned earlier on Latter Day Saints. There is a picture of exultation is the nuclear family perpetuating into heaven and you have his picture of of Thanksgiving and I got you got mom and dad and the kids again. I really want to put that on perpetuate that. Well, I mean it if mom and dad have a mom and dad and all the kids have their own kids and everyone's got in-laws to visit and everyone's got their own planets to rule in everyone. By the way, has trillions of their own spirit babies and everyone is perhaps Social obligations to visit you know, spirit, uncles and spirit ancestors and I mean I mean just to be clear here one is, and has posited a planet like a real finite planet, and human bodies that can fit in a box that can be can that physically can be entirely contained in one spatial location and they're talking about a finite planet and deities that can all fit together and here only in one place at one time in your meeting your practicing meaningful presence, not anyway. So I'm he he really just raises questions of the nuclear family not being a really good model for Mormon exultation.

That's how they sell it, but it's not that, when it plays out listening.

However, this contest is like Jesus when he is selling this is a measurement born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, headquartered in commonly referred to as the all of us have left that religion have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ as our podcast brightness six, John 19 the true light which gives light to everyone you found life beyond Mormonism brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own comes to us from without.

This is to share our journeys of faith God has done enjoying us to his son, glad you found this help you stick around and then you have the issue of mentioned earlier, what's the decorum the courtesy of the model of honor do you been the knee.

When you enter the presence of the deity king of a distant cosmic multi-verse land under the sovereign ownership of a different deity that say, you know, a distant relative to been that does that was one God been the need to another God or is it just sort of like okay when we need. When you visit you just know your peers. All the gods appears nobody's missed anybody will then just it is Easter So having asked questions about again the dilemma the classic zone of what will I my going to just become gods peer. They want to use that that analogy of fathers, mothers and children will my son someday will grow up and I will be his father but he will no longer be dependent on me when along with my household when he visits he will honor me, he will honor me from afar, but he's going to grow independent of, in fact, it would be a bad measure of fatherhood. If I kept my son dependent on me. So if I use creaturely and human fatherhood is the model for divine fatherhood. Then I'm going to raise spirit children who become independent of me and no longer have to thank me for everything that they have no longer express worship, I by the way, I think using the analogy of of human fathers and sons for worship between spirit sons and stepfathers that when Mormons do that with their really leaking out is they don't they don't really have a robust you worship.

I think it's a terrible analogy because my son doesn't worship me, I I would be a terrible father if I acted like I was. My sense God will discipline my son as though I am his final authority I I discipline my son my daughters in appeal to a higher authority to myself, over myself. I'm not the final authority and sometimes I do apologize to my kids for my own sins and sometimes they behold my own weaknesses, so that heavenly father has his heavenly children. In this model really breaks down quick.

Is he acting like he's at God over us when really he is acting under heavenly grandfather's standard and what come model are redoing with your we talked about how they Mormon gods are not ultimately satisfying because they're really not even satisfied with what they have known they had a famine additive glory don't have an infinite internal glory that reflected outward or the brig. In my model are progressing and all other attributes in the Mormon view, God is measurable. He has a number they said without worlds that number that it starts at zero in increments up finitely sins of the hyperbole on their part. He has a measurable number of planets, children, dominion, and that God God has been God for a certain amount of moment. God is a history of the resume is a timeline I can't worship God for all of who he is and was in the Mormon system because there was a time in the past where God wasn't worthy of worship. So I end up having the block out of my mind is a Mormon gods indiscretion.

Possible indiscretions and similar worship for who eat him for who he is now and maybe for who we always will be in the future. I'm not going to worship him for who he always was. Now the Angels have a very different notion of God. In Revelation 4, they say, holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come. David says in Psalm 90 verse two is a David from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God, so God for the Christian and the Angels and the Jews is not merely impressive or worthy of worship for who is today is impressive and is is worthy of utter adoration for who we always was couple more five more here boasting the God if if there's any any meaningful effort to comport the God of Mormonism with the God of the Bible, you have to grapple with this reality that God brags about himself in Scripture.

He boasts he is quite proud of himself in Scripture. This is never depicted as a bad thing. It's often a motivation for what he does is a jealous God – of his attributes is jealous is not of this on a mood swing. It's an attribute is a jealous God.

He does everything for his own glory and his children when they hear of God creating sunsets and sunrises and accomplishing redemptive history and defeating kings and humbling the proud and exulting the humble and God does this to his own glory in his own reputation, God's people clap their hands like little kids and they say do it again to begin God's people love it when God boasted himself and he brags himself and he glories in himself. There's no one greater by whom he can swear there's no one better than him. He can brag about Scripture says to humans New Testament. Why do you post as though what you have.

You did not receive will God has what he has in virtue of not receiving it's in himself as of himself. God does not have what he has drawing from another. If God what he had.

If God has received what he has from another. He ought not boast or brag glory and himself. He becomes very arrogant and self-centered when Mormons here especially know Protestants are this really isn't just a uniquely Calvinist thing. This is present in the Arminian Mullen's traditions to God boasting and bragging himself with Rosa Gillick that when Christians say that this doesn't meet God. Evil because sinful pride is thinking too highly of yourself but God can't think too highly of himself. Well, Mormons are here leaking out there very low view of God thinking will of God were to do things for his own glory or brag or posted himself, he would be sinful will, then you must have the kind of deity that can think too highly of himself. Here God can think too highly of himself. He is not the greatest. He is not the one, of whom no one greater consistent emergency conceivably greater can be conceived. Second, is not the one, yet you get so it Mormonism has a problem with God being God centered and self bragging self boasting because in the background. He he has received virtually everything he has. He has learned virtually everything that he knows so of course the LDS deity would be a jerk to act as though you know he's self existent, self brag, or for Christians. It would be unloving of God.

Not to brag himself.

We want God to glory in what is most glorious and we want him to redeem us unto the enjoyment of what is most enjoyable. What's most enjoyable is God. So when God directs and orchestrates and designs all of redemptive history for us to be God word and God oriented. He is turning our gaze to what would give us most happiness, namely himself and were quite pleased with that. If the Mormon system is true here in the God to help you become men to become helping men become gods who help men to become gods and so forth, is one eternal round in the system of the generations of the gods and if if the him if you could hide a call. Love is correct. We don't know when the generations of the gods began to be in it. There is an eternal law. This idea that just as there is a part of the furniture of the multiform and multi-verse of how things run there's really no ultimate purpose to it.

Really press that there's no ultimate personal being that has a natural purpose for the whole system I who was the God of the whole system and by refusing to have an ultimate ground of all being personal being that's overall there's no ultimate purpose to everything so Mormons if they think this through. They should suffer existential dread and think. Even if I do become a God. And even if I do become someone who helps others become gods. What's the point. It's just another version of a cynical reading of Ecclesiastes. Just got to keep in the same status quo. I guess there's no ultimate final satisfaction is no ultimate first beauty that I can have a relationship with that. In the model to three more here. I did well. You have gods that are exulted with their resurrected bodies who are having sexual relations. I know so Mormons are like what we don't know if sexual bullet sexual the sense that there's male and female in some sort of union bodily union is required between these physical beings with parts and passions. Even if you say it's, you know, not through copulation, even if it's just artificial divine insemination on the people. Mormons will say many there's different system of procreation in heaven. Okay whatever is not the point that you have these resurrected exalted human gods demigod supermen whatever and they're begetting spirit babies on a second like this. This violates the begetting principal that in a gets of something that is type a right that humans beget humans, you got exulted beings that with exulted resurrected bodies that are begetting what spirit are begetting intelligences but not even begetting God's than there just nodding, begetting the just beginning.

Bodies for existing intelligences. Something's not right there just some done fit to more one is that sin if coeternal with all the gods.

Is this violation really ultimately of just this impersonal idea it's like violating the speed limit that nobody put their flick like nobody's ultimately like if this rulebook and it's like this note. It's like that if the manual of the gods in every you open up the manual. The gods and you ask who made the manual will know nobody did, who I never passed it down to me that the conduit deities who taught the next hot the next That the manual this is the manual.

This is how the universe works will what is sin was violating the manual states that it's transgressing the order of the cosmos, and it's it's harming other people's ability to be conformed to the order of the cosmos, causing pain maybe yeah sure to different Mormon models, but sin makes so much more sense in a Christian worldview because he had a personal God who is not. He's not inventing morality is not subject to an external standard of morality.

No, he is the standard of morality, his character is the root in the ground of all expressions of morality, so any law that is given is sourced in the very moral being of God and sin. Therefore, is a parasitical perversion of good it is, is that it is ultimately an offense against not some impersonal manual standard eternal law. It is an offense against a particular being. It's personal sin is very personal. Ultimately Christianity be because what makes sin bad, ultimately, is that it opposes God is treason. It is opposition to the goodness of goodness himself and so sin is more interesting in Christianity because sin is sin is more shocking.

Sin is more dramatic sin and hell makes so much more sense because your violating the ultimate most high, who is himself. Love and goodness that is on his personal and relational, rather than just impersonal and rulebook like he said that your violating it's it's ultimately personal where is sin and Mormonism is ultimately a violation of impersonal standards without enough to throw in the irony here without body, parts or passions.

Some Platonic forms or recurring emergent law, and that in in in this system, evil is necessary in this Mormon system requires opposition in all things in any yearly start having to ask questions like, well, is of God is dependent on a system with evil to be himself. Good does he need Lake formidable opposition. I mean, mean what kind of opposition. Are we talking about here. We need like inconsequential opposition like you could flick his finger and it just all goes away or do we need something we we need the kind of opposition can put up a fight because if we really mean is that God needs substantial opposition to God's omnipotence is omniscient and he's good. Are you trying to say that some sort of formable deep formidable evil needs to exist for God to maintain his goodness, for God's goodness to be meaningful. Where's Christianity is like it. Ultimately God like doesn't need God's goodness in God's godliness in God's being isn't definitionally dependent on evil rather it's the other way around. Evil is a parasite on what preexisted God.

Goodness, he is himself good that evil makes so much more sense in Christianity because it's violating God's very own character which is the ultimate standard goodness. Thank you for this and all that's left in my list of script that that that last one. Reminds me of a mission. There is debate in my so missionaries are divided by district selective companionship's are two missionaries are sensory and then there are multiple companionship to the district as a my district was having some kind of meeting or something, or working altogether and were having a debate if God could lose if his plan could fail because if we are truly free.

If we truly have free will and God's plan could fail. All in all of his children could refuse to to accept the atonement door or the Savior could fail in his task as Savior and somehow lose all his creation. That is not possible from a Christian perspective and with one thing, based on my own monologue here. Idolatry is ugly and God hands over someone who has an idolatrous heart to believing foolish things with foolish implications, which are in violation of the authority of Scripture. The clarity of Scripture, God's own word. Well, I am so much they are you mocking us. Are you mocking Mormonism in a sense, I totally am in the sense of Elijah, saying your God is so weak here, but I I want you to know that as I try to show throughout this the only reason it's it's remarkable is because there's a standard of the supreme God who ultimately will not be marked in this God is, is the one who can finally satisfy the attorney that's been put in man's heart and our sin is so ugly that God hands us over to a kind of devolving spiraling downward foolishness sexual foolishness just the way we treat each other the way we treat our bodies and the way we interact and relate to God and I I think this is so bad forget me. God thinks this is so bad that the lake of fire is reserved for those alongside the liars and the murderers and the thieves with the idolaters and idolatry is very serious. If you have the kind of deity that subject to these kinds of dilemmas you have an idol that can save you and is the kind of vital that God himself would mocking the book of Isaiah the mocks or Elijah would mocking ball but I hope this would provoke you to hey there is this God that will not be mocked because he is supreme and your sin is not your sin of idolatry of having this Mormon deity system that is not beyond the forgiveness of God's grace is not be on the blood of Jesus in my goodness, it is not beyond the forgiveness of God's people.

If you would repent of this and become a childlike, humble worshiper of the great supreme God of the Bible worshiping at the feet of Jesus at the cross who accomplished forgiveness of sins and complete sacrifice by his blood finished at the cross busted out of the tomb. Three days later all authority in heaven and earth's word is completely sufficient. His word is completely authoritative. God commands you to do certain things and within his command is embedded, the authority to do those things repent and believe in the gospel, you will be saved. Confess your idolatry and you will be forgiven and God's people will no longer remember your sins and the sins that most matters. Here we will take you in to a local church and we will treat you like you're just one of us. You don't even have to be ex-Mormon in the sense of your identity right you need to be an excellent meeting that you need to reject that awful ugly assistant and become a biblical Christian but your identity with other Christians doesn't need to be ex-Mormon. It's just brother and sister in Christ who is equal in the faith totally forgiven and loved by Jesus not defined by your past identity are your past mistakes. Your past ugly idolatry. You can put that behind you and have a a very freeing relationship of worship toward God as the supreme and most high God, and you could a note of all in with this if you could hide to cola the Mormon song says we don't know when the generations of the gods began to be initiative. The message of Christianity is the very first God Isaiah 44 verses six and eight I am the first and on the last besides me there is no God.

The very first, God showed his love in this way, he sent Jesus, for God, for the very first God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that whoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life. Eternal life so please repent and join us in worshiping the rock of ages, cleft for me, let me hide myself in the put the water and the blood, which from light from the wounds from -tip from the way the of sin the double cure saved from wrath and make me pure saved from wrath and make me be of sin the double cure saved from wrath and make me pure. The rock of ages who assume humanity and was cleft was crucified for you on the cross that that's why Christians are so disliked about Christmas rock of ages. Baby died on the cross you trust and that Savior you get the double cure for the penalty for your sin in the power of sin being removed from you and forever having fellowship with God and his people and amen thanks for an infinite just want to thank you for coming on the the Abydos program and want to say to our latter-day St. listeners. One of the things that I've always appreciated about areas of the watched his videos over the years and watched in dialogue with Latter Day Saints and as one of the reasons I'm glad to have had this opportunity to have a conversation with them in person, virtually, is that you Latter Day Saints will often kind of get get concerned or did give her that we only try. We try to talk about when we Christians try to talk about the theology Darren touched on earlier in others that there's a whole unit what you're saying is not official kind of rejoinder that we get one of the things that I've always appreciated about Aaron as I watch about you and is a lesser videos is that you really do try to understand LDS theology and all the various versions of it. In order to speak with clarity to Latter Day Saints and speak with understanding and with the charity. I appreciate that that about you. I know that as you've had debates with Latter Day Saints and that there are times Latter Day Saints credibly challenged in anger and I would encourage our latter-day St. listeners not to do that. That comes from the desire to defend that that Mormon identity and an idea identity ultimately should be in Christ and ends and so just wanted to tell you and that I appreciate that about you. This is something that I watch them and then pay close attention to in your videos to think about. Thank you very much we appreciate you can run a program is anything else you like to promote or share social media you want and follow your ASCAP shattered histograms, twitters,, you can cut Google me and find a bunch of Instagram, Twitter, YouTube stuff that I and if if you're on Facebook you can add me sometimes with figure out maybe hip who adamant credit figure out who somebody is just so I know what you're going for a bit. I did if you email me I'll try to get back to you and but I know or just Facebook messenger me out Instagram messenger me and are more likely response email just becomes a bit sometimes that I really enjoy having one-on-one dialogues with Latter Day Saints. So there's a lot of weight zoom in or Google meet video chats all do with Latter Day Saints one-on-one, not publicized, not broadcasted, not recorded. You know you not you, not a lab rat you not know just scale the project. I've be happy to have a private discussion with you if you got complaints or questions are just thoughts and loved. I tried to be generous with my time. Scrape ethic and really appreciate again that I think you get from other programs and I would also be used to group so for a podcast of Amy has questions they can request you in our group and then they can leave questions or comments about this program or a demonstration on and that we can pass along if they choose to go that route. So thank you again after, the program in we be praise God for you know using you as an instrumented helping others come to Christ. We pray that your ministry and your era, your seminary studies will go off expand the problem. Thank you for spending your time. A seating in a talk about this the dilemmas so you know, maybe if you come up with another list someday will do another cells examine the blessed Douglas thank you for tuning into this episode of the outer brightness podcast.

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