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Balancing Script TRUTH Spirit WORSHIP

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The Truth Network Radio
April 30, 2021 2:18 pm

Balancing Script TRUTH Spirit WORSHIP

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April 30, 2021 2:18 pm

From Mormon to Jesus!  Real, authentic conversations among former members of the Church Of Latter-Day Saints


Your right and six tongs, prophecy, revolution, visions, human interpretation of tongues and so forth. When I was a Mormon statement. Obviously some inherent contradiction of paradox in my mind.

On one hand odious truth claims are based on the concept of continuing prophecy and revelation.

The obvious churches, led by 15 men who are set apart and sustained by the membership as profit steers and regulators just Smith's career as a prophet began with a claim division of the father and the son and throughout his time leaving the movement many more visions were claimed by him and his followers truly is claimed by Latter Day Saints that theirs is a religion aligned with the spiritual gifts enumerated in the New Testament they see this as evidence of the truth of their movement. I grew up in a home, revisions and personal revelation were not considered to be uncommon. The challenge that this post to my mind and my teenage years and beyond was the sum of the visions/revelations experienced by some of my family members led to heartache and sorrow for other family members Latter Day Saints are taught that the father holds authority to receive revelation on behalf of his family were recourse to other members of that family have to test the spirits as a Mormon, I would've said that just as it is the responsibility of Latter Day Saints to confirm the words of their leaders through prayer, so is the responsibility of family members to confirm the words of the parent through prayer. The challenge comes when the supposed revelation contradicts Scripture wears even touched on in Scripture was a person to do severe challenges to family structures and relationships arise when Latter Day Saints receives what they believe is personal revelation that they should take additional wives.

This is not uncommon and it leads to pain as others. This is not uncommon and leads to pain as can other less stark examples. In theory, the LDS canon is the rule of faith and the Prophet and apostles are to provide clarification of portions of LBS Scripture that are unclear, at least that is what one listener wrote to us. After listening to episodes 44 and 46 in which we reviewed Matthew's article, the Mormon chameleon that downplays their role as steers and regulators you revelation a new Scripture has been very minimal since the days of Joseph Smith despite claims the continuing revelation and an open Canon are strengths of the LDS movement. We talked about healing our episodes 51 to 53 about precision the fact that the seventh obvious article of faith includes feeling as a gift of the spirit alongside others leads one to wonder if the LDS priesthood bestows the right to give healing blessings. Does that mean they'll be every LDS mail holding them up as priesthood has been given the gift of healing.

What about the gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues speaking in tongues or glossolalia was an important part of early Latter Day Saints practice Mormon prophet Brigham Young stated or sorry Brigham Young regarding speaking in tongues is spiritually electrifying experience. An important part of his conversion, the practice continued throughout the 19th century but was not a part of Mormon practice at all during my lifetime. Early Mormons wrote of great spiritual outpourings taking place during the dedication of the Kirtland Temple in March 1836, speaking in tongues was said to be part of this great outpouring of the Spirit when I was growing up in the obvious church. These manifestations of the spirit were spoken of anytime a lesson plan included discussion of the dedication of the present temple we hear them. We heard them often.

They were evidence that God was at work in the Latter Day Saints movement but precarious teenagers in my class that often asked the natural question why does no one speak in tongues today.

The answer given was usually an allusion to the idea that missionaries who learn foreign languages certainly enjoy the gift of tongues.

But that is neither glossolalia miraculously speaking in a language unknown to anyone, nor is it seen a glossier miraculously speaking in a language unknown to oneself, but Mark but known to one's hearers. So where that is the paradox that existed in my mind with regard to the seventh article of faith.

Mormons claim that their continuation disbelief in the gifts of the Spirit is proof that Mormonism is true. Over against Christians, many of whom are secessionists, that is, they believe that the miraculous or sign gifts of the spirit have ceased that they were meant to be powerful signs in the apostolic era of the church as it was growing but are not needed today so the paradox is this. Despite Mormon claims that all of the gifts continue. None of the gifts are present in the modern LDS church in any meaningful way and when pressed, Mormons often give arguments akin to the Christians to station us counterparts. The gifts of the spirit that's what were talking about today is Latter Day Saints.

We were constantly told that we needed to study the Scriptures which Latter Day Saints believe includes the book of Mormon doctrine and covenants, the Bible, and program price and the words of modern prophets, but that we must do so by the guidance of the Holy Ghost. We read Jesus promised that quote by the power of the Holy Ghost may know the truth of all things" from her on a 10 verse five everything that the LDS church taught, believed and practiced was to be done by the spirit or many of us have come to the truth of the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and of his gospel based on the Bible and not on the teachings of the LDS church. We are left wondering how can we have been so deceived are we not being led by the spirit and how are we led by the Spirit after we are saved due to the LDS church, equating feelings, emotions, thoughts, promptings, etc. as being communications from the spirit and realizing that many of these were not in line with what Scripture taught. We may have a reaction to go against anything spiritual that all we are to believe is what is printed in the Bible of the spirit isn't working on our minds and hearts etc. instead of trying to rely on the spirit we could instead focus on our own mental capacities, our own learning and abilities and forget that we still need God in our lives as born-again Christians. So how do we keep this balance.

How do we live by the Spirit without being led into error and how do we learn truth will still relying on the spirit of God is speaking to the Samaritan woman at the well. Jesus knew that the woman had had five husbands at the man she was with at that time was not her husband.

Shocked at his knowledge of such things that only she and God could've known she proclaims. Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. She then continued by asking about the proper worship of God Samaritans at a time, or a group of people that had broken off from the Israelite religion and began to incorporate other cultures, religions, and ideas into that into the Israelite religion even had their own version of the Torah, almost of the Samaritan Torah agrees with the Jewish Torah. There were some modifications to it. One major one was that an altar was to be built at Mount Garrison is this mountain to which the Samaritan woman referred when speaking with Jesus but the Israelites believe that God should be worshiped in Jerusalem where the temple built to give offerings and worship Yahweh was located. Samaritan woman admitted this to Jesus by saying quote our fathers worshiped on this mountain, which which is not Garrison. You say that in Jerusalem is a place where people ought to worship as well. In response, Jesus told her that there would be a time where worship of God would not be centralized or limited to a specific geographic area would be done anywhere and everywhere in the world. They will not need to visit a physical temple located in a single city to worship God the Holy Spirit will dwell in the hearts of those who believe in him, they will become the temple of God, in whom God himself dwells.

Quote Jesus said to her woman. Believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. We worship the father you worship what you do not know. We worship what we know, salvation is from the Jews, but the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the father in spirit and truth, for the father seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. The topic of our episode today is just that, balancing our worship of God in spirit and in truth we have to address the questions mentioned before and more mayor discussion give encouragement to those who find themselves struggling every fellowship in the communion of the Holy Spirit may redirect our thoughts for the Lord Jesus, and may give praise and glory to God. We are Matthew, nuclear, Calvinist Michael, the Exxon apologist in public. Let's get those are the questions the same as any comments right this question seven people just as you made yourself when you are Latter Day Saints. How did you compare gaining truth from study to gaining truth from the spirit. Where did one stop in the other and or do they necessarily go together all times so maybe we should in a break identity. Typical question so how do you compare gaining truth from study to kindred spirit.

Question a lot about this because when I was when I was LDS. Assume like I received a lot of messaging about the limited nature of man right in terms of knowledge and ability to understand truth and the mysteries of God and so had Scriptures that were coded quite often like second Nephi 434 which is a it comes from a from Isaiah believe, but Kirsty the man the trust of the men are crispy the manager so the man and make his flesh his arm curses he that put his trust in manner make a flesh his arm so that was often quoted and in use in a way that implied that you shouldn't trust in your own abilities were or even in fresh air and mortal man to teach you truth right you had to rely on the spirit of God, to understand the truth and so that the messaging I think led me to be wary of study and you know that I can put more emphasis on trying to understand truth through the through the spirit about itself. Legend led to some dangerous places. I think because in some ways it leads you to almost almost discount even Scripture I remember and I don't understand. A quick example. So I was on my mission. There is a passage in this and second Nephi as well get the tablet hang on the second so there's a passage in second Nephi chapter 29 verse 11 and it says for I command all men, both in the East and the West in the North and the South and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them, for out of the books which shall be written. I will judge the world. Every man according to their works. According to that which is written mountain and contacts within the book of Mormon.

This passage is kind of suggesting that God has given Scripture to people throughout the world, not just to the Jews, but to me fights in the book of Mormon and also to many many other people's boy was on my mission. There was a missionary who while we were in the MC together we become pretty close friends and she was serving a different area than I was at the time and the missionaries in the area where he was serving had gotten into some trouble they had fraternize with the some of the local church member ladies and add and I don't know the extent of it.

I know they they there was a party of sorts and I think it was swimming in a pool involved. It was kind of kind of the gossip throughout the mission that that this is gone on right and I knew this missionary probably wasn't my hope this missionary that that I was friends with probably wasn't involved in no maybe just went along with some of the others might've been troublemakers, but he called me and he was Steve know he was pretty upset about his reputation and and you know how that how things were playing out in terms of the word of the word getting out among all the missionaries in the country and remember telling him that night that like all I do know like I know you're a good guy you know all right about in my journal in and out of that book you will be judged right, like making my own meaning for this passage. On the second Nephi that you know all the really judge others journals the people right in the just stuck in a decadent approach to maybe trying to follow the spirit and follow your own promptings, rather than looking at what the what the Scripture actually means can be dangerous. So this is kind of an approach to Scripture that I think Latter Day Saints or are given in the messaging that they receive.

And so in terms of know that SS can answer that question is that I was afraid of study that that would've been that would have kept me from making such mistakes is one thing, so would you say that you were cautious when you approached study of Scriptures are words of prophets or whatever our authority to mean to your hesitant to study at all, and a sense of maybe finding knowledge that you shouldn't have, or maybe abusing it. I think it I think you maybe neither of those more like unwilling to trust study may not guy loves to study. I study the Scriptures. I studied no commentaries on the Scriptures by by Latter Day Saints scholars and site. I love the reader of study. But I was hesitant to trust it because it felt like I was giving into the messaging of knowing and trusting in the arm of flesh too much, rather than relying on the spirit, okay, interesting.

So she relied more on promptings are answers to prayer. Would you say then okay, okay, how about you Michael. I was the exact opposite is all I probably would've judged all severely is a highly self and rightly so. My take is I just would see a lot of Latter Day Saints in my day that just have these wild crazy ideas that were so out there like where did you get that United just the conjecture or some personal revelation that they had especially been with some of the missionaries out the on the mission field where they'd still like we were the intelligences that were advanced enough, became known animals like dogs and cats in the more advanced intelligences became human and I might words that coming from and even things like like heavenly mother yelled that people would talk about like okay get the debt logically can make sense but for me I wanted to be able to find it in the Scriptures, or else I couldn't believe it's I was the opposite of Paul. I was really hesitant about accepting anything that you could find in Scripture at least hinted that I wanted to at least find a whiff of it in the Scriptures before I was willing thought that it was too easy to get blown away by the wind zones you know you can your own feelings, or you can misinterpret the revelation you needed something to panic anchor you down and for me that was the Scriptures and and after my mission, I came across a quote from Lynn was Harold B. Lee, one of the one of the prophets. Ray said you know if somebody says something and and it is not the standard works that we can assume that it is man's opinion and if it contradicts what is in the standard works and it is not true. And so Isaac okay will they go a prophet just said that it has to be in the standard works across it's not true. And so I adopted a prima Scripture you I was only ask is that way. I wasn't I wasn't taking so long Scripture in I was still putting a place for the prophets and for the spirit to teach me. But the Scripture was for first and foremost in my mind.

So those things still mattered as long as it wasn't contradicting the Scripture and it was flowing with Scripture that I would accept it.

But then there were times to Kyle Whitehead was more like all images depend on the situation and on the telephone missionary story to tell is where most of my stories come from is beyond my mission, but I member obsidian in Sunday school and we had to go to gospel principles for two years and about what were teaching this stuff every day. So I'm sitting through like my seventh time going through the. The lesson about serving your fellow man and I'm just sitting there bored out of my mind like I could probably recite this lesson is just Kelly prayed to God like just teach least something new today and then we were reading was I had to 17th which is when you're the servicing of your fellow beings. You're only in the service of God. In my eyes just honed in on that and and I was looking at out at Matthew.

I guess where it talks about them being in his May 25 square like Judgment Day like those are to be found in Christ right hand of those are Uganda's lefties says if you did one of the least of these my brethren, you did it and me and it just the word you just seem to jump out at me from the page in a likewise it written to me what was I to 17 since you've done it. I you're only in my service concurrent service in your fellow beings, but here in Matthew you've done it to me and that I just had this sensation light and I attributed to being the spirit and just you know over overflowed in my body and I just went out like the whole top half of my body just slumped over and had this spiritual impression that what that was saying was basically you know, Christ died for our sins, but he also felt all of our pain and and all that stuff in the garden of Gethsemane is what I was sent as a Latter Day Saints and so is this hypothetical situation came to my mind was like okay if there's somebody out in the cold, starving for five hours. Christ felt you five hours worth of this pain but if I bring in band of the second hour and I feed him and I warm him by the fire that I've alleviated Christ suffering and so I started to even though you know that something I would normally have been suspicious of as a Latter Day Saints like oh my gosh this is such a powerful experience know that it I went ahead and let that supersede study at that point so I would say that normally yes I stuck to study and what was written in Scripture to determine what I believe. But there were times where I would slip and something else kinda determined by Dr. I think you both for your stories should Michael do you think that you Latter Day Saints, at least previously. Now the thing is changing a little bit. Do you think they did receive messaging that bit of personal revelation. This is really really important billions being stated more now because for us if you like it was more that the profit the prophets. Revelation is, what was important. I never really felt like my Revelation was that important, unless it was like me praying over the book of Mormon and getting that spiritual testimony that the book of Mormon is true. Obviously, we are all encouraged to have that received by the spirit and the other thing that we are encouraged to pray about his is this a prophet.

Whoever it is, at the time. Is he really a prophet called by God is doing. Smith really God's prophet and those were the three real revelations that were acceptable for us to receive as members of the church and I think if you were in a calling, like a leadership calling and you're looking for counselors. It was expected that they would can receive through the spirit of the counselor should be Bishop Street being told who to recall the callings and honestly believe that if I had to go in and sit down with the Bishop and have an interview that he would look at me and see like right through my soul and basically know everything that was going on in my life and especially on my mission. There are a couple of times they brought possibly to talk to us and I never once everything was. Elder Ballard came a kinda scanned the room and he said well there's nobody here with any majors and that and I believe that 100% on like he can look at us and he can see how much brand there is Crimson all of us have because he's an apostle.

You quoted Harold Bewley. What I find interesting about that is think about the couplet right as as man is gone. Once while this God is now amended become that something that's not found explicitly in the Scriptures and other guests can write and so it's something that they came to Lorenzo Snow and he recorded it and it's repeated and quoted all the time in the LDS church to support their their doctrine of knowledge of God, but it's certainly not something that would would have worked with was what Harold Beasley placed as the approach that should be taken something that's not in the standard works, then we can be sure that is not right yet I would've taken that a little bit differently to be just the way I interpreted that couplet was that he was talking about Jesus specifically as as man is God once was like yeah Jesus came in and he was born took a mortal body like even Christians have to have to acknowledge that, as of the just left the deification argument which I believe we did become gods as a Mormon missionary and it wasn't until later on when I was writing a biblical defense of Mormonism that my position changed because I started studying it a little bit more closely contact. I don't think I can edit and add some thoughts but I think you guys may well like just Charlie. What I did is I was kinda more towards my goals and I would kinda be very cautious about seeking secret knowledge or something like that you want to. I kinda wanted to. I kind of viewed x-rays can interesting.

I think that because I kind of viewed the spirit working in us more like the reform you have illumination where it's it's not so much like the spirit is giving you some special brand-new knowledge and alliance received. It's more like helping you to understand the revelation given in Scripture. No are given through nonprofits.

So while I have not well. My view is changed about the need of the estate of the prophecy revelation given through the LDS prophets, and I still think that principle is true the sense that the spirit does give us elimination and treatment. I think going to that later. Suggesting I don't know what it is a bit is the family.

I grew up in the area that I grew up in both their you know there was a lot of a lot of speculation about receiving the second comforter and in all of that kind of stuff that an outing of this was when I was was a kid waiting for them to suffer and all that whole movement in Ottoman, but that that kind of subculture Mormon subculture was pretty prevalent in my family in the area grew up. You know, Matthew II had a feeling that you were going to kinda take the same position as me as a latter-day St., just because we established in another episode of the you and I were doctrinal.

Mormonism was more social Mormon people in my family that you went more towards the spiritual side of things and my family and claimant that God was talking to him in the middle sacrament meeting and he would hear God's voice is telling them things all the time and I think negatively see the appeal to you that as well because it's just that I know you like this shows that personal relationship and makes it seem like yeah, God still speaking to us today. I am his child, why would he talk to me.

So you see the appeal to that with with Artie thinks he can take that direction. Going back to the whole second comforter thing I thought about that too. I thought about because I remember to some effect that there were some quotes, possibly from LDS leaders maybe Brigham Young. They said that you know if your righteousness exceeds such a level are you you achieve such a commune with God and you will receive the second comforter kind of thing is always wanted man. My ever to get that that level. I got I think I'm struggling just understand the basics. Sometimes it so something I kind of pondered on a lot when I would actually happen. That's impossible, then I later found out in a reading, the dialogue Journal Mormon thought that they equated like the second anointing with that kind of experiencing like once you reads receive the second anointing, then you would. I don't know have some kind experience with Jesus supposedly on a matter how they I can't remember exactly how they can describe that but yet was more related to the ordinances.

Then I was like oh, so it's just about no I mean not to be pessimistic, but impressing someone enough to convince them to let you have this ordinance in Ottoman Skanska discussion we kind of my glory, talked little bit about study and prayer versus sitting Scriptures versus learning through the apostles and prophets and it sounds like Michael like you said that you focus mostly in Scripture over and above the words of mine prophets produce extra absolutely. You believed that the province can say something and be speaking as a man, and so they said something that went against my scripture study forward. The Scriptures seem to be saying about whether speaking as a man right now, but if they said something that I believed already to be true, that confirms you know because they're so authoritative if there supporting what I believe but they're not, they must just be having elapsed of that communication right now or you know are there speaking to people who need line upon line and precept upon precept, and they're not where I am right now I don't know you didn't judge the profits too harshly or anything as their care more for the keys of the priesthood than they are to have perfect doctrine for the church all the time.

Yeah that's good so that's the thing that changed over time or in on any like your preference of Scripture over the leaders or is that kind of just always, I would spend depended a little bit on who the leader is just different leaders come and go in and some of them you like a lot like I really like Pres. Hinckley and I was in this fond of Thomas S.

Monson, I just wasn't connectivity real well and so might well really have a lower and lower view is a study the Scriptures more and got more of an understanding kind of had a system of theology that I began to accept. I was less impressed by the by the prophets and became more uneasy about how people just wanted to listen to anything of the prophets, and I think will really annoy me is general conference.

What happened, and then you know for the next five Sundays. After that, all the lessons would be centered on this talker that talking to Michael not really so interested in a lease. These talks because of who is giving the talk, I'm much more about, let's talk about a topic like a doctoral topic and we can reference this talk, but I don't want to sit here and just read this whole talk that I Artie listen to in general conference. I thought the people just give way too much like fanfare to the prophets of the apostles, and a member. What I was kind of on my way out of the church on as I've mentioned on this podcast are not having these dreams have these nightmares and one of them was a giving a presentation to ward and I did a question-and-answer session and somebody asked me if the profit superseded Scripture you know if he was more authoritative than Scripture. I said no he is not.

We have to use the Scriptures to determine whether what the prophet is saying is true, and in this dream everybody in the ward stand up, one after another. They pointed their fingers at me and he started calling me a heretic and I was forced to leave the buildings.

I think I had this this subconscious feeling that maybe I wasn't apostate because I wasn't so onboard with the prophets of the apostles like I should be an intense training at the LA was much of only five questions that young people. I said I would been one of the people pointing at Michael in the dream he mentions using the tests the Scriptures of the tests for the prophets what they see and you know trying to determine when when the prophets and apostles were speaking as man and when they were speaking.

This is prophets and those thoughts never really came to me until I started to question when I first came home from my mission. I was buying the collected writings of all of each of the LDS prophets because the way I viewed that was that. Yeah, they were they were clarifying the Scriptures and what they said in conference and what they wrote and so I know I wanted to read that because you might my understanding was that having modern prophets and apostles was a major benefit for latter-day St. truth claim right and so they they could. The church theoretically could add more Scripture from what they said if you look at Joseph estimates dream that was added in 1978. He had that dream.

I think it was in 1918, or something like that and it wasn't added until added to the canon until 1978 and so I kind of viewed their writings. As you know, there may be scriptural truths in here that I need to mine out of these books and kind of that approach to their writings, so I definitely have been taking priority over the Scriptures clarify so long. Follow question for you I love you ever heard of the anecdote about Brigham Young. By the way, for get into this.

I'm glad that you and I are on the same page these days is that we wouldn't have necessarily gotten along back back in the day is now going to come over there is Brigham Young like holding up the Bible and the book of Mormon and saying that I love these books there are so valuable. But if I did choose between these or a living oracle of God, the living oracle is more important. Would you say that you were a fan of that line of thinking that all absolute absolutely sounds like you got more into really deep diving and studying when you're questioning like Paul yeah sure, that is interesting is like when you when you're in LDS and attentive in in the in the organization you're in the sheepfold you feel like you know a life like you understand a lot about the history of the doctrine and questioning when you really start like plowing through you know going real deep neck. I didn't have any idea what I believe to her what I thought exactly. So I did was intrigued by my latter-day Saints that really do just throw all of their eggs into the spirit basket usually how do they always wonder how delete start questioning because I feel like there is no anchor for them.

There's no you know spot where you can even strike in there going to care about it because they're just not even know. I mean, they're not even on the on this planet.

In a sense, so I guess what was it if you give a brief answer.

Paul like what was the thing that allowed you to come down off of that and come back down to earth and start thinking logically and questioning in the first place, collecting that something that a lot of people are probably frustrated with talking latter-day Saints like that so want one. It was lack of evidence for the book of Mormon did always kind of bothered me that there wasn't. We didn't have the broad goal in place. You couldn't go in and look at them and scholars to translate them just had to take Joseph's word for it, but I believe you know me, I was willing to set that aside and said okay that God did not enter the place back and so we have to believe what was, that one chink in the armor that that made me start questioning because I was so heavily invested in the leaders of the church being called of God, and an inspired it was seeing that they could be wrong I think our very first episode of my experience with Charlotte, the African-American security guard at the building where I worked and trying to share the book of Mormon with her and the students know her and then talking to her on a daily basis.

She was a really sweet person and really enjoyed chatting with her everyday and seeing how her she was when her pastor pointed out for the LDS church and had withheld this priesthood from African-Americans for so long and in digging into that and realizing you is seeing some of the racist statements by Brigham Young really kind of it. That's what challenged me the most because it is like a lease, these these leaders were supposed to be inspired. There they can be wrong and making house that how is that there are not any different than any other religious leader then something that's interesting. So I think initially I had more issue with them being wrong about doctrinal things and you probably have more issues with them being wrong about social issues that that's really interesting that's that's probably because of the social Mormon in many ways yeah I would say so. Perfect sense to mention that I go with you Paul and your kinda saying how there is a point where it will any particular I really studied out. I've mentioned before, Bruce McConkie, but I just know IQ such a logical you know like the guy he wasn't really fluffy and Eliza latter-day St. I didn't like it when people get super emotional only be like you know like the dues of of March and all the stuff like, like Pres. Monson, in particular like to use flowery language included poets and stuff like this is good something concrete and unlikely, but hard like McConkie was a no nonsense like playing around like his facts, take it or leave it, think like that is currently a scientific approach almost to Mormonism you know this is what this is what is been said is what we believe is it so Matthew, I'm not going on a limb here and gas.

Assuming you didn't love fast and testimony meeting depended actually really liked fast and testimony meeting in the singles ward a lot more because you know in a normal war. It was like you know roll the dice you get whatever you get. You get the travel logs you get the lady crying about her cousin to drink coffee once or something, but in the end singles were to seem like they were all in' was like I don't know if is trying to to you know show everybody how spiritually were or if that's really I never got that sense, I feel like they were genuine in owning their testimonies but they they're always like focused, you know, especially since most of them were returned missionaries. They know they know not to go up and know how, left, left. I really enjoyed those were very focused began in a typical war sometimes it was is pretty rough in the typical Lord I would zone out in fast and testimony meeting as I wasn't really interested in in people's life stories you know about how they found their last dog and because of that they know the church is true, you know, whenever they were given. Talk about unfair, but wasn't any doctrines I just I was, and is interested in it, but I think you're right in the singles.

What I did like it better just because they were my peers. People that I knew better one-on-one. I don't know but that's that's an interesting point, but also the other two fingers because there is a shared experience nowhere all kind of going to the same problems dating school figuring out where your life is going after the missions are all trying to figure out the same things of the like.

There's a sense of community there and count sense of kinship letting that along with being more focused in the testimony I think was what I enjoy better yet is a good question because yeah some of those were the family was a rough seeing and crying babies so that anywhere. I feel like I missed out on a critical Mormon experience because I never went to the singles ward. I can run for my mission and attended our family ward for five or six months while Angela and I got to know each other online that I moved here in attended family ward with her so never did have the singles will experience really seen the movie singles ward because that pretty much tells you everything you see in the RMI messing the singles ward now. I think we met in the preexistence, yet none yeah I was little worried that that's what the singles artist enemy like like super Corey and everybody's awkward and like you know proposing at church at church gathering having met the person 10 minutes before did you know that that's what the fastest way meetings and singles ward are there all veiled proposals disguised as test RA three kind of Artie tackled the question to. I think so. And Paul, you can erode your kinda spoke about in the beginning in the first question why the dangers of going to one extreme or the other spiritual worship versus Elsa truth and spiritual worship you and expand what you've Artie said anything else you want to add to that, I don't think so, again, is the danger of not being able to tell the difference between your own desires and what you want and what truth is, you end up seeing things in Scripture that you think is a newer or hidden meaning that that isn't really there and they can in the instant smaller ways. It can affect your life and put you on the wrong wrong path that it can make it so you don't see the true meaning of Scripture don't understand truly what God has done.

But in more damaging ways.

It can affect others because people who kinda live in that, heavily in the spiritual armor when I was when I was a kid, I had my mom had a cousin and should never cousin never married and she would often kind of get connected with some of the fundamentalists groups are fringe groups within LBS subculture who were living polygamy and she never really generally got into polygamy. As far as I know, but she would she would know people who were kind of swimming in those waters, and she would listen to their cassette tapes that they would pass around and eventually get really confused and she would come and talk to my mom and my dad and my dad would you know try to set her straight in terms of following the brethren rather than know these people who were going off on their own, but that was a constant thing for her but she was one of those people who was just spiritual Mormon just whatever you know. Felt good or tasted good to her. She was willing to heated up and and you know him several times. It is almost led her into getting involved with groups that can be quite dangerous and harmful to women and so there's there's deftly ways that it can be dangerous. Everything that kind of really when we think about it, the early Saints at the same problem. You know they're there in the mail you a like, you know that the Roman Empire no grease had all these philosophers and add lots very much a scholarly kind of learning that was in that region and there was a great temptation to add worldly philosophies and scholarship to Scriptures and so to me that's kind of the that's the of the fertile ground in which Gnosticism came and they were they were trying to appeal to everybody you know like take a little bit of this year and they're all you believe in. This will assist add this to it. We can we can merge all this together. This syncretistic religion and it's it's a tempting thing.

I think for anybody in a we all have our hobbies.

We all have things we like, you know, and sometimes is a temptation to pick up things we like and integrate into what we arty have. And I can be dangerous or it can be online or can be dangerous. What is the heart is wicked and who can know it you like the second part because it's like wow. Not only is the heart wicked who even can understand that right and we don't without without true enlightenment from the Holy Spirit.

We don't understand that and still be food for focus on our emotions and what makes us feel good and what appeals to you know art are sensual nature that kind of thing you can really get into trouble when you're when you're trying to seek truth and so it really is important to understand that we can't trust ourselves and that's not to say you can't trust yourself to study like I was saying earlier but you can't trust.

You can absolutely greater trust in your emotions and expected to going to to find truth. You will be led into error by your heart and ended up at think your comments all about you Michael anything regarding him by which keep the balance for spiritual truth is spiritual worship and truth not going to one extreme or the other.

You can see just from this this conversation. The three of us had that when you do take extreme I think there's going to be sort of an emphasis no matter what. But when you take extreme, I think it's polarized you, you start to distrust people who are going to the other extreme is being no crazy and and they're not as special or as righteous or as smart as you are and so it just opens up room for there to be pride and I think I think having them balance just kind of teaching grounded. I mean, it's great to its greatest at their study the Scriptures by then I can just be pricked other people who don't know as much as I do and look down on them but find the spirit and I will be more likely to want to get together with other people and study with them and iron sharpens iron so we have a lot to grow from each other by and I'm missing that opportunity is if I don't have the spirit and the spirit.

I'm not going to. I guess see what God wants me to see in the Scriptures or be convicted of my sins when I'm when I'm reading Scripture so it just is not as useful everything that I mean to the comment about Michael's, dimple's dimension to just in general, like whether whether LDS or in all interviews.

Now as Christians.

I I thought a lot about this. This bouncing spiritual worship and scriptural truth is, topic about a pathologist because I thought was an interesting and important one because as latter-day St. You know they were there were those who seem like they're really hard-core and they knew a lot of passages and I knew they knew all the Scripture mastery or whatever it's called doctrinal mastery. Nowadays they think they new quotes left and right, you know, but it was they didn't seem like very loving or very approachable in a at the same time, there were there other people who were just very kind very sweet like you try to have an in-depth conversation with them and like you can a struggle and that's in the end wasn't those are to the point of being dangerous.

But those are kind of interesting type seen other subcultures are in a different types of personalities than the LDS church, and I don't think as Christians we all need to be Scripture Masters we don't all need to know the Bible left and right we don't all need to know be incredibly wise in terms of the spirit, but but I see just in terms of groups within the Christian community. I see some that are very focused on the spirit very focused on receiving tongs or you know having some kind of supernatural confirmation of their fate something you want to mean that the demonstrate that they are truly Christians and all and kind of like, to the detriment are no sacrificing scriptural accuracy. Actual adherence in any kind together the other side.

I see this very much in the reform community is is very strict adherence to Scripture you know if you if you bring up something you got have a book chapter and verse to prove it. And you know they'll do pick apart every single argument using very intense logic and in trying to demonstrate to go to prison's arguments are weak and I and I come catch myself and that kind of motive and it's not wrong. I think to argue from the Scriptures, but we soft remember there were Christians first and foremost were were meant to be like Christ. We can use the Bible as a bludgeon beetle other people over the heads with or to prove how smart we are, or to know Sean much more gifted we are with our intellect. It's it's really that bounced, understandably, to be humble when you understand that we learn from Scripture should be used to make us more like Christ to push us to humility to push us to worship and our worship should be not disregarding Scripture or disregarding truth, but should be filled with truth should be completely intertwined, and that's why in my church we sing from the Trinity hymnal. I just love something of ever seeing him in there that I disliked, there may been once I did, not a sanctum of regular music but in terms of the content. I love it always because his they're always very worshipful. They also always very doctrinal very doctrinally deep speaking of the Trinity. Speaking of humble worship praising the Lord and its is something that we should we should not forget one.

Focus on the other.

We really need need to have this kind of balance and so wanted to go on to the next question about the Pharisees because there and often maligned group in monks. Christians also latter-day Saints. You know, if you want to. If you want poison the well with anything that's bad just tied to the Pharisees is catlike. Well, you know Nazis you know they like like chicken. So obviously I mean come on know you hated bacon obviously yeah exactly Fleming is a bacon demeanor basically Pharisee right BSO so the oft criticized Pharisees. In actuality, there were the most conservative and Orthodox in their beliefs. According to Jewish Scriptures amongst all the other Jewish groups, but we we do have Dragon as they did fall short in several several areas. A Jesus once said to them, quote the father who sent me has himself borne witness about me is voicing that have never heard his form. You have never seen and you do not have his word abiding in you do not believe the one whom he has sent you search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life, and it is the day the bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life was quote that's John after five verses 37 through 40. So examining this passage of Scripture. In John chapter 5. What was the error of the Pharisees that Jesus was attempting to point out here what you guys think. Start with you.

Michael yeah I mean that's a great passage of Scripture like the way you enunciated it kind of a spoiler a little bit but you know things I used to accuse evangelicals of as a latter-day St. colleges all the time over there so into the Bible that their eyes aren't even on Christ. You know they think that the Bible died for them on the cross of the Bible is the Bible that you know the Bible doesn't save the as I think it kind of comes down to that same the same things ironic because there reading the words of God. But Jesus says you do not have my word abiding in you and cynics, the totally exterior process when they are reading God's word so there reading it with their eyes, but it is not something that they are being conformed to is not a spiritual experience at all. It is a completely mortal experience and same logical experience and so because of that they are not coming to Christ they are using these things to feed their own their own arrogance instead of humbling themselves and coming to Christ.

I think that's something.

The issue is here yeah and thought about just now to his. We don't really see Jesus here criticizing them for misunderstanding Scripture or or twisting it like we find elsewhere in the New Testament New Testament we see him saying that his word doesn't abide in them.

There was an interesting kind of what's with the call with McCallum and Mormonism like object lesson a sword.

Mormonism other object and talk to you know that I got a similar teacher talked about like the Scriptures are it's it's a difference between no applying ointment your skin and actually taking medicine, you know, it's like you can to go.

You can take a topical ointment your skin will stick on the surface will dry by really swinging affect your skin. It's not can it really affect any of your internal organs. But if you're sick and you need an antibiotic and you take antibiotic that's can affect your whole body so it's something they have to internalize a something of to take into use on something after applying to you and him and I think I would agree with that, especially in terms of this passage is not the Jesus was saying you just don't understand is that all is just that they didn't really know how to apply it, and obey laden base. They still were hardhearted it and have new hearts regeneration by St. Paul degree or you have any thoughts on that. I agree, as Michael was speaking thought about Hebrews 412 which says for the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart of the things that Jesus criticized the Pharisees for often was the intent of their heart and the way that they approached him and they were constantly coming him to him trying to trip him up and an honor and shame culture like like the Jewish culture of the time was it was it was kind of like a grudge match, so to speak intellectual grudge match when when the Pharisees would approach Jesus and and knows he would open the Scriptures to them and ends kind of lay bare their intentions before the crowds didn't only drive them to more anger towards him. You know so when you when you're reading that you refuse to come to me you may have life from John five. They weren't seeing in the Scriptures. What the Scriptures were pointing to the Scriptures for pointing to. But he was right there with them and so they didn't see and yes it's intentions of our heart and the humility that you were talking about before Matthew if you're approaching Scripture with the intent of constantly being able to have the right argument Scriptures not getting into the word of God is not getting into you.

It's not is not dividing soul and spirit, subdividing joints and marrow's and discerning the thoughts and intentions of your heart, which is the intent of Scripture try to bring us the place where we we realize were reliance wholly on God and wholly on this is rescuing and salvation offered in Jesus, so the sky my thoughts and I was going to look up something else.

The slip in my mind right now, so going. Reminds me of gears I was talking about on one of his programs easily mission apologist is done over hundred 70 debates written 20 bucks for much of stuff in apologetics and he admitted he said on his programs that apologetics is not for someone who doesn't know what it means to be a Christian, you know, there many intelligent people that get into apologetics. And they crash and burn.

I think we know people have done that on on both sides of the fence enough to get really hard-core and 20 defend the faith. You know they feel like it's what God wants of the due and if they're not in a anchored Jesus and it can become prideful like it can be a source of self-fulfillment in own self-aggrandizement because you you you show yourself to be this kind of authority you have this knowledge that others don't and you and you can defeat other people's arguments collect chess game. You know you study all the moves sailed opening movie study all the counters, etc. etc. so you know how to counter. This is not but then your your brains is filled with all bunch of counters and counters to counters and but then it's like you need to step back and say well what is the whole reason for the semi glorifying God what I'm doing.

My bringing people to Jesus or my just trying to push show people down the ground and as Latter Day Saints and as as missionaries know we didn't want to Bible that reason I think sometimes leaving Mormonism and going to Christianity and Kelly cited that you know like sometimes reactionary. I think where well this is how I felt when I was in that religion. Now that I'm not that religion you know I should feel that way. I should have those thoughts of his ideas but a really you know we we can't toss everything aside that we learned is 150 take the good and bad, yet you brought this story to my mind, Matthew, link to something that happened on my mission to I did end up debating a lot of evangelicals on my mission and it was always the same finish saying you know that any heated arguments with Austin and showing us these Bible verses and we walk away from that being like manner if Christianity is true like I'm still not can enjoy, not religion.

If that's the kind of fruit that produces and people going to this one guy only remember his name but one evening, my companion, I ran into this question, we went and sat with them outside and he just started answering all of our questions, but get this, just spirit about him that was so dignified and we could tell she love the Lord and he loved us and he wanted us to be saying and it just made all of his arguments so much more compelling to assess as nonbelievers.

He was in there was crazy because at the end of this he's just a really smart guy. He was able to answer all of my everything I through Adam Damon.

I would try to throw my best trick questions, adamant it didn't matter. The end of it. He says you know what I feel really impressed to share this verse and I don't know why but I'm going to share and it was it was the verse in the New Testament was, as I will have mercy and not sacrifice and that was a verse that just Replaying in my head over and over and over again as the missionary Mike why did he feel impressed to say that the last and now I understand is the Mormonism is all about sacrifice. It is about. I got to you sacrifice all my sins on the altar is an offering to God so that I can have grace. And so it really made an impact on this. The sky was balanced with his Scripture study and ends with the spirit as well. Thank you Michael, that's great you think we I think we should look at examples like that and now take that to heart and I know I know there's a funny things in my life that I need to work on is my take all the stress that I have with school and worries about getting a job in an island and I going to the discussion groups and start talking to Latter Day Saints about doctrine and I bring that stress with me. That's not good. It's like a beautifully each member the reason why we witnessed on anything so see next question so we can talk a lot about the dangers of going to one extreme or the other in spiritual worship and scriptural truth.

So now is born again Christians. How does the indwelling of the Holy Spirit affect our study of truth from Scripture, whether directly from the Bible from books and commentaries, etc., and how should our study affect our spiritual life so how does this spirit affect our study and how does our study affect expert going to go. Michael yeah the whole lot of comments on this question, but I think the big thing is it affects the reason that you sit down and read Scripture in the first place were reading through judges right now as a family and it's something that would appeal to me more I think is a latter-day St. because it's got cool stories in it and you am a big fan of history in and okay what happened and in reading and out of different eyes reading through this because, like okay you know what is the symbolism was the foreshadowing. How is this even teaching us about Christ you know where is Christ in the Old Testament as I believe that all points to Christ and today we were reading about Gideon in the Midianites, which is a really cool story and before Gideon came, they were eating all of Israel's crops and he got to the point where they were starving before the called out to the Lord for help.

And unlike man that is just like us. It wasn't until I was at the point where I was virtually starving before I cried to the Lord and he heard that and then rescued me so I think I'm just able to see a lot more of the hidden messages in the Scripture. And when I when I read it. I'm also looking for how can I use this to witness to somebody to glorify Christ, and so on more eager to find those things now that I was before. I think I would just read the Scriptures to check it off of my checklist to say that you know I did it one step on the wrong to righteousness and an celestial glory and go to find stuff to pummel people over the head with sometimes sadly still a sinner and I find myself doing that every once in a while, and then I might catch myself like what is wrong with me. I was sinner nonsense wrong with me but on the other differently definitely bleeds into indoor spiritual life as well. Like I really like that quote. Maybe there is nothing says in the Bible is the only book that means you yeah I mean that's probably the biggest difference between latter-day's my D stand you in my view now because I believed that the Scriptures were essentially dead box and that's why we had no profits was to kind of life you it's the one true and living church on the face of the earth according to doctrine and covenants section 1 and that's what makes the LDS church so great but now as a Christian I look at the Bible like this is living. You know the word of God is a living thing and so because it's it's living is able to change me having an interaction was something that is living Scripture because of the spirit so there's no way the bank can't bleed into my spiritual life. If I am reading the Scriptures man reminds me again of the passage that Paul quoted from a Hebrews for the word of God is living and active.

Sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit. Johnson of Maryland discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart so much what you're talking at the Michael you both yesterday when I was obvious I would've reviewed the Scriptures, like a springboard and I think I can buy that you honestly assess springboard into spiritual experience seemed to be the way that the Joseph Smith one about using the Scriptures. He would read something and it would lead him to some kind of miraculous spiritual experience and so I headed to the Scriptures, and that way if I read them I would find some something in them would trigger some type of experience I was always seeking out those experiences as a Christian now I'm not looking for that more like Michael and I'm looking for know how does how does this witness of Jesus Christ. How does this point to him. What is this thing about him that is important for us to understand and know.

I think you know in terms of how the indwelling Holy Spirit affects my study.

I trust that as I study whether it's the Scriptures were over to commentaries and then back to the Scriptures that that the promise that the Spirit will lead us in all truth is real and and and alive in my life and so I trust that is that is happening and then again I'm not searching for miraculous spiritual experiences to come from that and some it's more like the more I studied, the more I understand Jesus and the more I realize I write my other reliance and the need for for him and so in that way and that way I think the indwelling Holy Spirit lease truth. You think you guys like I comments. I just kind of that mentioned that I agree that we should keep the scope of Scripture in mind when reading it that it's all Krista centric.

It's all pointing to Christ now. There is a serious mercy. So I think Ray said that any particular passage of Scripture only has one meaning you know when it says that Joseph and Mary went up to Bethlehem, it means Joseph and Mary went to Bethlehem in a it's it's not like allegorical or you know how Atticus and I got it something that really happen. But from that there are many applications you know of any particular passage you can how you can apply to many different ways. So the point is to understand what was the context of the passage given was the author that wrote it, what's the you know what's the immediate context what's the context surrounding the context of what's a global context and it should all be pointing to Christ in some way. And so it's is just trying to for me. I spent a lot time frames and what does God want me to know because when we really have a high view of Scripture and seed is God's words as if he breathes them as latter-day Saints.

I kind of thought is like well it's a book where God inspires men, but through these fallible and of lenses easily reinterpret kind of ideas, a God gives them as a may be the way they put it on the pages and exactly quite right in on. Maybe they flubbed here. There.

Now I view Scripture as God breathed, so in other words print on the page in the original languages. That's what God said and I think that's the way that Jesus sought to so it's really we really need to understand what is God saying what an end to not misinterpret or to twisted, and we were going to because were fallible, but to try as hard as we can understand what is God trying to tell me and what is God wanting to know that's kind of what I focus on now rather than kind of saying like you I think your talk about a ball where instead of using Scripture as a springboard into the spirit talking to me to tell me what I need to do in my life.

I'm really trying to focus on what God actually spoke your and of course we should apply that into our lives and we should we should let the will let the word examine us as we talked about and let shape us informants, but application is the last step in exegesis and there's a reason for that reason for that is that as you were saying that the left understand first what was said and what was intended to be understood by the audience were there was someone sharing Jesus speak or whether it was someone you know, a group of believers reading Paul's letters. It's really critical to understand those things.

First, what was said.

What was the intent for the hearers and then you then you can have a solid application, but the other way I went about before was about me.

It was know what the how can I springboard into this being about median and what's good for me and what I should do that kind of thing.

And that's that's not the way to go about understanding and reading Scripture, and I've heard two of even Christian Bible study groups were that's kinda what it is. Well will open a book read a passage and say look around in a circle and say okay what does this mean to you rather than to try to dive and say okay what is Paul RO know what is John try to sing and I can you know that could be unfortunate to because then give a circle 20 people all thinking that it's saying everything's good.

So you think the level listening to our brightness from my God, to walk with Jesus when he is really national born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, commonly referred to as the Mormon faith. All of us have left that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ-based teaching the name of our podcast brightness six, John 19 the true light which gives light to everyone you found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own. Thus, our purpose is to share our journeys of faith God has done in drawing us to his son. We have conversations about all aspects of the transition years challenges, joys, and everything in between. Glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around. Alright so this is one of the most famous passages of Scripture latter-day Saints see famous or infamous ivory want to call it James chapter 1, so this was related to Joseph Smith's conversion story where he felt he claimed that he felt confused about all the different denominations in the debates that went on around him in the county where he lived as a as a young boy and so he read James chapter 1 verse five and that kind of excited him to go and pray to God to know which church was true, so I'll quote that verse and following quote. If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him, let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the way, for that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord is a double minded man unstable in all his ways." I think I think I pulled out from the English standard version. So if any latter-day Saints or listing the confused by subtly different issues in a more modern translation so in examining this passage now is this thing that we can close our Bibles pray to God and receive knowledge and what you think. You think there's a difference between knowledge and wisdom or is it the same thing, so anything is that the only difference if you wanted understand what biblical wisdom is the wisdom of Solomon, defined in Proverbs and whatnot is the application of God's word is an act that comes through lots and lots of study.

As we were talking the application is the last step of exegesis last step of your your Scripture study, but that's what wisdom was, is how to apply it to your life to your daily life and how to live the way that God would have you live so when you read passages like like James 15 affinity lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, that's not saying no closure, Bibles, and just get some new revelation was saying is do wisdom did get an understanding of how it applies and that comes again after after loss of muscle study.

I like Proverbs 47 we do mixing James first developed weather conditions were good. Wisdom is the principal thing therefore get wisdom. And with all thy getting get understanding. I love that with all budgeting blank space met yesterday. At least the beginning of wisdom is this get wisdom. And whatever you dictate inside having wisdom is definitely important in understanding how we should live in God's kingdom is as is. Proverbs says the principal thing, but that comes through lots and lots of study and prayer, and so yeah I don't think it's a surprise that James says to ask of God, but he does not say no shinier Bibles and do some new revelation and something just thinking I don't have a whole lot to add to what Paul said.

I mean, I don't know how you follow Matt to be honest should even try, but I mean it's kind like okay if that's what that Scripture means a lot latter-day Saints try to state means that we would have all the other books of the Bible and mean God didn't just released a much smaller pamphlet like a couplet if you will just have these two verses and it if you want to know something asked me like it get so frustrated that first thinking so frustrated sometimes of these debate groups talking the Latter Day Saints glass them a question and they'll respond well pray and ask God about it is time to start and finish getting back at them will why don't you pray and ask God about it and tell me what he said you know or how to say okay well you know I didn't. He said you know the church is false or something like that.

It's like you want me, this is it really is just becomes a awaiting to get you off of their backs is all it is insistent. You don't take it up with God.

I don't want to debate this sort of thing, but yet I think it really just undermines the entirety of the Bible. If you take those passages. The way the Latter Day Saints want to take the it's, it's completely worthless at that point, you don't need. If that's true by asking them to pray and tell you what they find out the mic on the stricken responsibility. Put your shoulder to the wheel young man maybe have a few Mr. Pabst before boost of energy.

I could go for Mr. right about now for a while you go for paid extra. We don't want. We don't want Mr. Penn went out even though there was a regular Mr. pinball I've ever had is paid extra to say that Mr. Penn is being extra angry fall and Michael and I nailed it on. Think I have anything to add to that must-see so yeah so continue on with that when we were studying Scripture as Christians do we need continuing revelation to understand it and how does the Holy Spirit in line and teach us as Christians rather than what we saw early bleakness Latter Day Saints. But you think Michael asked for some clarification on this? Greg is a continuing revelation are you talking about revelation from a man like a profit for you talking about personal revelation about I originally thought my mind are thinking like do we need God to give us direct communication from him to be able to understand. To be able to understand Scripture and I guess you could take it that way to you know whether through someone else's can rethink your relation or direct continuing revelation. Yeah so this is a tricky question here in the New Testament does say that when the Jews read the Old Testament. There is a male over their eyes so I think that the speaker does need to be present for you to really understand Scripture and the truth is that all three of us read the Scriptures all the time is Latter Day Saints and we didn't understand with a sentiment I blew right past verses that were so clearly they so clearly taught the gospel and I couldn't see what they said because it was like there is this veil over my eyes. I lacked the spirit and so I couldn't understand the clear message of the Bible in the night. I came to saving faith and I approached the Bible. After that, and it felt like a whole new book course I did switch the translation out but it wasn't just because of the different translation you read it you like. How did I not see this before. It is so obvious, so I don't like using the word revelation because of my Mormon days and overusing it back. Then I would say the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is essential for reading the Bible in understanding what it is saying All that, I would agree with Michael here. I don't think we need a dose of revelation you like God giving to you new thoughts versus inspiration would be like God breathing into you in understanding of something this before you decided I would like something I don't think we need need revelation is relating Scripture so much as we need inspiration and just have an analogy, think about the way Jesus went about his ministry to see the two disciples that he walked with on the road to Emmaus after the resurrection, and they didn't recognize him as he opened the Scriptures to them in a passage that Latter Day Saints use a lot because you know the two disciples after Jesus leaves them then they sell it in our hearts burn within us. Jesus do. He didn't give them. Download to the new revelation to me in the in the way that Mormons will typically understand that from from their experience with was being brought up with with the way Joseph went about things Jesus and do that. He opened to them. The Scriptures that there were already written, and I think that's what that's a good analogy for what the Spirit does with us and how the spirit leads us and the truth is read and study the Scriptures just expand slightly, pausing to really like what he said it, it's true. Jesus could have gone into the synagogues and said I'm the son of God, and here's what God told me directly and revealed to me, but instead you see him pulling out passages from the Old Testament and reading it you know today. This prophecy is fulfilled in your ears and you see the same thing with Matthew's gospel. This happened that it might be fulfilled which was written by the prophets and then quoting the Scriptures so they're not going to new revelation they're going to be the Scriptures to verify everything that is happening when one thing I one reason why I really enjoy the new American Standard Bible is that in the New Testament whenever it directly quotes a passage in the Old Testament it's in SO I've noticed that when I'm just reading through the new American Standard. There will be passages that I didn't even know were quoting the Old Testament, but you see in this cabinet. It gives you shows you immediately own escorting Old Testament and there's a reference in the notes to point to that which you might miss completely if you have a Bible that doesn't have the notes attached or if I didn't have that such a reasonably joy it is. I think it's also solid translation most part yeah the other reform kind of images they distinguish between Encino revelation and illumination and so when the prophets and the apostles. They and the other inspired writers, they wrote, Scripture is by inspiration or I think you in a better term would be expiration because Scriptures, God breathed. It's like the breath of God being recorded into Scripture. So what God spoke is what what was written down and so so when we have the Holy Spirit indwelling us or reading Scripture, and we can understand it with new eyes like Michael is relating to after your saved you see the Bible company differently spirit illuminates your mind, it helps to understand to uncover always passages that you read before a million times beat and understand them in the way the kind object lesson going back to that and I like to use is the revelation that created the Scriptures is kind of like a room if you just imagine a blank room. The revelation would be putting new furniture into that room piece by piece so that comes little bit by little bit so that's how we got Scripture this progressive revelation Genesis to Revelation. There is little bits of of furniture being added to the nowadays that room is completely furnished is completely finished, but to the one who does not know Christ, the one who still in their natural state, a fallen state that room is completely dark. The lights are off.

You can't see any of that furniture you might be able to get glimpses of it from light from down the hallway, but you knock you will see clearly. Everything inside of it and so's the Holy Spirit is like turning on a lamp and being able to illuminates all the objects in that room so that he could now see them clearly. So that's kind of how the help helps me to understand as a Christian now and I'm not saying that God's putting new pieces of furniture into the room. The room is finished as of the spirit is helping me to understand to see all the pieces okay so startled about spirit learning by the spirit study balancing the spirit and scriptural truth, so this might be worth spring up again and I saw another topic earlier in one of the discussion groups where they say that person supposed to have unity, but they disagree on this. Dr. so and we talk medicine Maybe it's worth spring up again and again in this discussion.

So what about when Christians have disagreements on secondary issues like the Sabbath or specific gifts of Spirit, how they operate. Baptism.

Understanding a passage of Scripture, things like that.

So what about what about these disagreements does not mean that the Holy Spirit is not guiding us into all truth and how do we reconcile disagreements between Christians if we all learned well by the same spirit from jumping so I would. I would suggest that the teaching of the New Testament presupposes that there will not be unity on everything that that that is a future reality not present reality and so know if you read Ephesians 411 13 another passage that's often quoted by Latter Day Saints does evidence that we've got the apostles and prophets, with your serrated says and do some some apostles and some prophets and some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ until we all come to the unity of faith and of the knowledge of the son of God, unto a perfect man into the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. So that we will all come to that unity come to that fullness is a future reality, not a present one, so you Matthew and I and Michael were varying places in our understanding varying places it in our in our progress towards that measure of the stature of Christ right so as of the New Testament presupposes that that's the reality that we will be in and there's there's no way in which that will that can be reality because there's constantly new people coming to Christ and you know those babes in Christ. There's more mature Christians and so that's the is a progression towards that that unity and so for Latter Day Saints point at that and say all well that's just proof that that Protestantism are Christianity whenever they want to point the finger at on any given day is not true. I'mstill looking your own Glasshouse does not unity of the faith with regards to Mormonism.

Either price so if you if you think that your apostles and the prophets give you that they don't.

There's not even unity within the quorum of the 12 apostles Latter Day Saints faith. You can go back and read vigorous disagreements that have been had among the quorum of the 12 apostles Latter Day Saints faith over the years and Brigham Young demoted Orson Pratt from his position within within the 12 apostles basically backdated the time at which he was ordained an apostle so that he would never become in their succession, the prophet of the church because they disagree so vigorously over the nature of God and and and publicly it was it was played out within the pages of the Salt Lake Tribune. During that time so you know it's there's no unity there either. So it's not a cudgel that they can use to beat us with. But I would say that it's is fully understandable in the end and right that the New Testament teaches that it is going to be that present reality until we come unit unity of the faith at think you, Paul, and I think it's our third episode.

Following the first two episodes where he talked about what Mormonism is true. We talked about what church is true then we talked about having unity as Christians on the essential doctrines of the faith. So there's not an absolute complete unity in all things right now in Christianity, we do agree, we do have unity on the essential so I refer to that episode. Also great thank you very much all those fantastic but you Michael what he had added up you I think it's actually amazing when you think about it that we can have so many secondary disagreements. And yet there is so much unity in the faith, the spirit wasn't with the church of Christ, we wouldn't, we wouldn't have this unity, we wouldn't be on the look at each other and say that still my brother. I mean, I think that he would just we would be torn apart and if you look at Mormonism.

By contrast, every time there was a disagreement.

What happened is, there was a new sect of Mormonism where they said that the other one was your apostate as it is always different stacks of Mormonism now but with all that the stats of Christianity as much as he doesn't want to trade is a will that proves that the third fractured and that they are apostate organization is a really big difference because we do all see each other as brothers and sisters despite me secondary issues. One of the chapters I really like in the New Testament is Romans chapter 14 and read a little bit of that year, starting an inverse one except other believers who are weak in faith and don't argue with them about what they think is right or wrong. For instance, one person believes it's all right to eat anything. I think I'm in the OT.

Yeah, I usually read the ESV but when it's bedtime. I read out of the NLT for my son; this this means a little bit different.

Okay, for instance, one person believes it's all right to eat anything but another believer with a sensitive conscience will only eat vegetables.

Those who feel free to eat anything. Must not look down on those who don't and those who don't eat certain foods must not condemn those who do for God has accepted them a little bit down in verse five in the same way. Some think Monday is more holy than another day, while others think every day is like you should each be fully convinced that whichever date you choose is acceptable.

Those who worship the Lord on a special day do it to honor him. Those who eat any kind of food do so to honor the Lord something give thanks to God before eating, and those who refused to eat certain foods also want to please the Lord and give thanks to God. So the way that Nicaea described to his within the different denominations. There is sort of a preference thing.

A lot of times to that there's different styles of worship and that that is totally acceptable to God. It's okay to worship different ways to have different opinions.

So this was the second senior issues.

No idling in matters at all you know when I have a disagreement with somebody on a secondary issue in Christianity. I don't think any less of them. In fact, I like to hear what their perspective is and how they came to that conclusion. To me it's always valuable that perspective.

So yes, this is my thoughts on it and that's great since it's something I thought about is a letter to St. as I qualify redid leave become a Christian you what one of the 1 million nominations in a number is always fluctuating what one of the 50,000 denominations I join and I was I was like well maybe it's because one person doesn't like about this device so they won't allow coffee in the church or Illinois you will despise, so don't know allow alcohol in their church but it's really not about that. I think when you talk to most Christians.

They want to honor the Lord at least you know it that's her purposes. They want to honor God. They don't want to plainly disregard or dishonor God is just that we as fallible were still fallen creatures we struggle to figure how to do that, you know, we were trying to read understand God's word and find what's pleasing to him and to follow him. There is a passage I wanted to read real quick and Psalm 119, not the whole thing just like over hundred versus but as a couple verses, verse one, since it starts up a things as English standard version. Blessed are those whose way is blameless who walk in the law of the Lord Blessed are those who keep his testimonies, who seek him with their whole heart. But also do no wrong.

But walk in his ways. So this this indicates that Blessed are those who are blameless, who walk in the law of the Lord there striving to understand and study the law which you need to do study you can't know the largest by osmosis NED to be taught it or to study and learn. It. Blessed are those who know the law of the Lord and strived all of that wall and I think that's what most christens are trying to do when we have differences.

This is because were struggling to understand what what the original intent was of the passage in the application like we talked about earlier. It's it's not easy. The clarity of Scripture in terms of the gospel. It's very clear. Christ is the God man came here. He died for sinners trip repenting of our sins and trusting in him is how we are saved a lot of the particulars of Scripture is very difficult to understand my favorite books is our will are both epistles from Peter Abbott. There's just so much going on there that I I struggle to understand and I read commentaries and I still don't quite grasp of waste time say and Peter even mentioned that some things that Paul wrote were difficult to understand a figure that is I think it's in second Peter sewer world is struggling while trying as as fallen humans understand the will of God and is not that God's word is completely incomprehensible.

It's just that sometimes will read passages they welcoming this sort could mean that every similar but slightly different and so were all just trying to honor the Lord in our worship in our lives as Christians but and repeat myself too much or can I go live alone and only kind of plan on making this about 45 minutes but know that Michael Scott struggle with his allergies to so much money can go bro as I was just thinking the earliest mindset will often say you are implying.

They're like oh there's so many different viewpoints that Scripture must not be. The Bible must not be plain enough by itself to come to any sort of a conclusion, but I think it should be said directly to anybody is thinking that that when it comes to primary issues. There is no question on the Bible is very clear and that is one thing that you can look at all of these denominations in Protestant Christianity, but we will agree on the essential doctrines across the board and that is something that should give you pause. If you really are so fractured, but how can that be the case.

Jeremy Howard. He messaged and said that he's made an updated version of the primary doctrines, secondary doctrines and tertiary doctrines is an updated list for that so go check out his website. Want to see the updated version so blast evolves and we have any resources like books or sermons or things like that that could help Christians are struggling to know how to balance scriptural truth and spiritual worship is 70 anything that you helped you in your walk. I think one of the things that has helped me most distances to learn to study Scripture systematically best not to say that as it is in biblical studies as a biblical theology guy and I don't think that the culture and entertainment despite going on behind the pastors is important. It is obvious that that's very important to exegesis, but you do that student into the systematics and understand what was Victor says look promises are thing that's really important with the dorsal Holy Spirit understanding why the sphere was given and that that information is contained within the pages of the Bible and what the spirits role is in the life of each individual believer and in life of the church. So I think my recommendation would be to do a systematic study of what what the Bible says about the Holy Spirit and what its role is not to help the believer understand okay so what has God said the despair will be doing in my life and be able to separate that from sometimes what is presented as is, what the what the Spirit does in people's lives.

One of the books I II really like this again and plug my theology professor Dr. Jack Cottrell wrote a book called power from on high, which is this basically just a systematic theology of the Holy Spirit and what the what the Bible says about the Holy Spirit and is very clearly written, seek and understand it. The chapters are organized well and I really like the way that she presents material makes it easier easy for you to go back and check if it was the same about this passage and does a good job with exegesis he can understand what what the word of God says, I think that Paul Inouye just reminded me there was a series that was actually on Amazon prime surprising is a linear series to teach a preaching series and it popped up in my recommend videos my clothes is weird but kinda cool. So I looked it but not sure if it's on there anymore, but it was by Robert Godfrey. I believe he's got he's got the Robert Godfrey with his name. He basically goes into Sinclair Ferguson that's it. Sinclair for so it's a series called who is the Holy Spirit. I don't know if it's nonprime. I tried looking for and I didn't find it just now, but you can find on the link in your website need just talks about. We Holy Spirit is, like Paul, we are saying this will Holy Spirit is and how he works in our lives.

I work in creation. I also think that that systematic theology setting that is important and I think one big thing to his reading different different commentators that focus on different purposes so I think that Charles Spurgeon and Matthew Henry, sorry name just like they when I read their commentaries there really focused on on what is this trying to speak to the believer. You know how how can this help a believer in their life and their walk with Jesus.

And I think that's really helpful.

Then there is sonic their disregarding and doing the holy no interpreting it however you want.

It's it's like if they go straight to the application and how the others can help a believer and that's really helpful for that aspect for the practical workings of doctrine, but then I also really enjoy people like John Gill who is just like very intellectual and he really dives into the particulars of Scripture doctrinally as I think having different commentaries from solid preachers, solid theologians that have slightly different looks at Scripture assigned different expositions. I think I can be really helpful.

And of course sitting under solid preaching pastors in the church is also very important is on Sunday. That doesn't go by my church where the pastors are urging us to repent to trigger and turn to the Lord, and those who don't know Christ to turn to him in faith and so that gospel message is so important to any Scripture, Michael D anything added up just a little.

I don't have any books that come to my mind at the moment but I do want to just echo what you said. Matthew solid preaching any churches absolutely essential, especially for a new believer or somebody that is coming out of Mormonism. I think he was single time that I am going to church and it is not been edifying for me in the church that we go to now to do a lot of universe by verse preaching and it takes a long time to go through the books, but Stonebridge with with little knowledge I have just been expanded and learning a lot of things that I didn't know and it's really good for me to deconstruct the old ideas that I had before but ultimately I would say connect technical quality of the Bible itself really is the ultimate book for that because once with series and I have people contact me sometimes and they will my Mormon friends seem so spiritual and and they have all the spiritual experiences in is that the Holy Ghost working in their lives.

And it's like well I mean there's no way to differentiate you that feeling that they have their so convinced that that is the Holy Spirit and it will be learning in Galatians is that the Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light and so there is massive deception out there and so what I would say in just this is my parting words here any any revelation, any being out there and tries to anchor you from God's word from the Bible is taking you the wrong direction and Going on like if people knew that then LDS missionaries going around people's houses trying to convert them they would meet with any success. I think that's really the answer to to being led away out of the folders is anchor yourself to the Bible and you really can't go wrong. At that point. Scrape is a good stopping point out some of my review of what we talked about next okay so yeah so for the next episode I can restart and say thank you think you fireflies for joining us for this episode. Marie talked about balancing Scripture truth was spiritual worship.

So next week we will be talking about the gifts of the spirit are not the that's a topic that a lot of my descents are curious about so were going to approach a topic and yeah so I hope you'll stay tuned to this is the out of love to hear from you. Please visit the out of right field read this and is a message that send a message of the pain appreciated the page aligned. We also have an out of right is another can also send this on to hear from you soon can subscribe to the other brightness podcast on Cas cast box cast the modifying stitcher. Also you can check out our YouTube channel. If you like it certainly right great also connect with Michael just one lungs and sometimes Poland will music for the other brightness podcast is graciously provided by the talented Breanna Flournoy and by Adams Road.

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