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Billy Hallowell (Culture Shift) Michelle DeRussa (Luther)

Janet Mefferd Today / Janet Mefferd
The Truth Network Radio
September 4, 2019 3:00 pm

Billy Hallowell (Culture Shift) Michelle DeRussa (Luther)

Janet Mefferd Today / Janet Mefferd

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September 4, 2019 3:00 pm

How is a seismic shift in culture threatening free speech and shaping the next generation? I'll talk it over with Billy Hallowell, author of "Fault Line." And the great Reformer Martin Luther had a scandalous and revolutionary marriage with his ex-nun bride. What were their lives together really like? Michelle DeRusha joins Janet to talk about it and her book, "Katharina and Martin Luther." That and more on Wednesday's JANET MEFFERD TODAY.

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This Janet Mefford today podcast is sponsored by Hartford Lebanon to Christian ministry, working among 2 million Syrian refugee families have been displaced for just $29 a month you can help Hartford Lebanon reach out in Jesus name to a family of six providing them with food, Christian education survival essentials and the gospel.

Please call now 888-247-5499. That's 888-247-5499 or Janet met, our confidence is in Christ alone, I sort of know is recline and if you add to that the widening gap between Americans on worldview and religious persuasion. You have all the markings of a true impending crisis that might actually already be here. How did our collective cultural values change and what can Christians possibly do about it. Joining me today, journalist and commentator Billy Hallowell who is out with a new book about it is called fault line how a seismic shift in culture is threatening free speech in shaping the next generation. Great to hear again Billy how are you doing well. It's great to have you back now talk about this crisis were and I guess some people might think were already there are some say were not quite there. What you think of where we are as a culture right now in terms of our morality and our spirituality in a really really dangerous place, and it is hard to tell what kind of in the middle of it or inching toward it.

I think the millennial generation, which on the upper end of 33 years old so I'm kind of edging that generation. Now I think that's where the big crisis is, but there's a broader crisis throughout culture that impacts. I think everybody but you start to look at the numbers and for me the most shocking number has been really just looking at relativism where the country is on morals and values. Do we believe there is truth solid truth you as Christians we believe any basis of truth. So when you look at statistics. The vast majority of the country is now saying will you know cultures can make up their own truth. Truth is found in the individual you know it, that that is very concerning.

When you start having a culture suddenly say, well, this is all relative and even 51% of millennial's when you left more direct question will say that truth is relative, so that to me is through the starting point in you, look there and you say okay well what else is going on and you can go to the Gallup poll and II break the fall down and fall line you good almost any point. Look at the trending data in which really crazy to me is you go back to 2002, you look at where the country stood in a variety of issues and you compare that the 2016 and it is really shocking to even divorce. For instance, Gallup had asked you to back around 2002 do is divorce morally acceptable and you had around 57, 59% of the country saying yes and now were over 70% of the country saying yes people having your women having babies out of wedlock.

I huge at 867% of the public things that morally acceptable now so that's when you start digging a little bit deeper and it had divisive issues. Polygamy went from 7% of the country saying it's morally acceptable to 14%, which was a little bit shocking to me. In looking at those numbers so there's a big change afoot, and I think as Christians we we sort of felt this more the left couple of years because a lot of this is sort of coming to a head.

Yeah sure as I was watching the clip not too long ago you might've caught this as well, but it was an interview TV interview that was tons of Planned Parenthood executives and the executive was asked. Well, if there is a little 5 1/2 week old fetus and there's a heartbeat.

What is that saying is that a blob of tissue is that a person and the response from the Planned Parenthood executive was it's up to each individual to decide what that is but I thought that is a recipe for chaos, but that's where we are. If you have gotten onto the train of moral relativism.

To that extent, one of the one where you go from there. Everybody just individually decides what's right and wrong. Why have laws and a wall right okay what about I pick what's right for their culture. Yeah, the venture baseline value at which affect the pick what they think is moral and right. The other problem is that we've just been so dumbed down that you eat.

If we say that there were are you willing to sink deeper and say okay well even gay marriage. There's some people out there who might say well I don't I don't really want the government involved in marriage. In the end, so I'll let the legal part of ago, but the moral part. I will not compromise on if you got people at different levels but were even losing that you ability.

It's sort of like whatever anybody says for themselves have to be the truth that have to be okay. We just we can't judge it.

And the reality is that all of this in this relativism. I believe I make this point and fallen it boils down to where we learn right where we learn that is how we got here so that's 11 of the ways you got here and we learn from the media. We learn from Hollywood and we learn from universities for most of us and have a broader conversation about public school, but I focus in the book on universities because that is when you spent 18 years of your life growing up, especially for millennial that would make this point and we grew up with technology that other generations didn't have being inundated with these messages you hit college you going to university and there unless you going to a Christian school or very specific type of school you are again getting this worldview reinforces secular worldview that does not embrace of the values that you most Christians would embrace those that the 30,000 foot view issue that we have and really poses a cultural problem for us was sure does. And we've seen with this free speech to be able to also talk about in the book, more and more what's happening is if you have an alternate worldview, a Christian worldview, a biblical worldview. They want you to shut up. I mean you you're a hater you're a bigot your homophobe your and Islam. If they call you a bunch of basket on the plurals whatever the insult of the day happens to be its crushing dissent, which is absolutely anathema to what America has always stood for. But isn't that part and parcel of rejecting the foundation of the Bible upon which like it or not, our civilization rests. Absolutely, when people will destroy your career they will go after you. They will do whatever they can do it you can go and look at Chip and John again. What happened to them with their show fixer-upper and there was a nonstory.

Somebody essentially made up. It went went after them even though they hadn't denied a gay couple going on the show went after them relentlessly created a story out of nothing on both feet and then you have this viral story, they will literally try to destroy you and look so sad about this to me is that it creates a free speech problem and you mention college campuses to everyone so afraid they'll want to be offended by another idea that were banning people were not allowing conservative and/or Christian speakers, were you trying to stop Christian clubs which I talk about in the book we have these all comers policies that I'm sure you know about where it basically the college will say well you know you can't require your leaders in the student club to have certain beliefs than for Christians. Obviously, you need your leaders to believe in the Bible and so they would most Christian clubs will require that and they suddenly find themselves unable to be an officially recognized club and it really doesn't impact a lot of other clubs on campus, mainly Christian clubs so that this is a problem across the board and it hurts secularists it hurts atheist and also hurts liberals and I think this is the part that nobly talks about but they are depriving them of having having perspective. Understanding what people believe and obviously the free speech problem for conservatives and Christians as well, but it's a sad situation and the one thing that I really want to drive home and fall line is that we've been complaining about each of these areas for a long time, the media, Hollywood, and universities, but a lot of times we don't have the physics we don't have the proof to serve back up what it is that were were saying right which of them I feel this bias so I tried to really arm people with a lot of information and staff that sort of show where we are in each of those areas will that is so good and I very much appreciate what you had to say about the left being less intellectually rigorous for having stamped out certain points of view conservative points of view.

I mean you look at what happened in Berkeley not too long ago and it is speaker coming on campus and they just went knots.

The anarchist show up and they start setting things on fire at wind when a culture reaches that point, Billy. What is that really say about us. What is that say about our long-term prospects walked away and that is the issue here, and it doesn't mean everyone has to be a Christian.

I would love it. Many people thought will be Christians but we we've lost our way and we've also locked our values, even if you don't you are a Christian.

The value of free-speech expression. This is somehow moved our culture somehow moved into this bizarre world of demonizing and destroying and pushing people out and and thinking are you knocking to have a presence in order to make sure that because what you believe is just so awful, and terrible, and horrible. You're not a good person and you can't be present and what's so insane to me is that this changes happened so fast. You go back 56 years and we wouldn't even imagine that some of the things that are happening now are happening but really I think the long term issue here is and this is why the books called Pauline was sitting in the middle of the seismic shift in the earthquake. We feel culturally is either starting or in the middle of it, or it's about to happen and if we don't engage if we don't do something to try to fix the situation.

I think were only looking at a worsening problem for the UK and other places in Europe to see what happens if receipt is so true were to come back really help out with us Pauline as he spoke, and will return on Jennifer today after the spring don't go away. I disses Janet Mefford and I want to tell you about a 10-year-old Syrian girl named Anisa and Ethan lost her mother when she was just 18 months old and now she lives in a refugee camp in Lebanon.

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Please pick up the phone and call 888-247-5499 888-247-5499 thank you and God bless back on Jennifer today. How did this seismic shift in culture come about and why is it threatening free speech and shaping the next generation what is going on. That's what were talking about with Billy Hallowell. His book is called fault line bill.

You made the remark before we went to the break and I want to pick up on that because you said this changes happened so fast the tax on free-speech everything that were seen in terms of the acceptable worldview and you have to stamp out the dissent. I think of a perfect example of that was the idea that two people of the same sex could ever be married was laughable 20 years ago. It was unthinkable and in fact was never seriously even put forward as a serious idea until about the year 2000 and look how quickly not only has it been legalized, but you have a majority of Americans getting on board and saying oh it's fine now, we naturally shows the rootlessness doesn't it of their morality. It's just rootless that it's not based on anything eternal or solid.

It's based on how well this is what were doing now will and one that I have my head gallop African-American back in 2002. To your point about 2000 sort of being the turning point. About 40% of the countries that they felt that you marrying the summary of the same sex was moral and worth about it at a high of the time that's now at 60% right so and simple to even find it higher something clearly change during that time and I believe it was Hollywood and the messaging in the way that people on the left were marketed that issue and let they meet you, even if you break this down a little bit further. It isn't just that gay marriage was legalized with people but having that debate now. It's what is happened then the 15 that is been so shocking right. I have been two years and we have bakers who have been $535,000 and I actually have a section in the book that dive deep into the legal issues that are resulting from, you have people going after businesses shutting them down.

You had memories pizza that didn't even deny gay wedding just so they wouldn't want to repeat that a gay wedding and they were being harassed. The text of this is it is not just the legalization of it the behavior after an end. Really bizarre to me that we could go from your not even be willing to accept gay marriage to Mel punishing people for having a traditional view on it that existed for thousands of years, it's insane or that story just recently about the polyamorous group what to call on Micah, family but the husband and wife and then they brought in their neighbor and then the two.

She got pregnant, and the two women ran off together, and now this judge has awarded tri-custody of a 10-year-old boy to three people. It's just I don't even know where to go with that, but you really do focus on this important point. I don't want to miss this because this is the main point in your book work.

It all boils down to where we learn the media and Hollywood and college campuses talk a little bit first about how we learn from the media and how the media has impacted the really the did down shift in our culture and the kind of the slippery slope that we've all seen come for all of us. I think with the media. One challenge that people assume that every Journal of the sort of national level turned out to get Christian conservatives and there are definitely examples I think of bias were without gosh that was so overt or intentional, but I think the vast majority of bias that happens in media and this actually makes it more dangerous is is basically due to ignorance of orders, a lot of them and and I actually recount this in the book only about 8% of journalists in 2007 told you that they go to church weekly write about 80% of Journal of going to church weekly, and you've got about 40% of the nation at that time reporting that they go to church weekly, so there's already a gap there and you can assume with that That that translate trend with an inability to understand really what what faith specifically Christianity means to those journalists and so you have the ignorance you a lot of reporters who live in New York City and Atlanta in big cities who probably aren't in touch around it.

Many conservatives and/or Christian and you can see how this worldview bias creeps in with journalists and the final point on that I would make is that having gone to journalism school. You're taught not to have an opinion you know you have to be unbiased, which is great but the reality is were all human beings. And so we have opinions that I think I did a lot of journalists assume they will go out and vote for a candidate during election because they think that compromises them, but just make them feel better. That doesn't change what's inside of them or what they believe and so I think it creates a false perception of being middle-of-the-road when in reality there might be conservative or liberal in their not realizing that so you to that point that impact so that worldview bias. Everything from who they bring on to interview to the organizations whose statistics they cite to the stories they choose the cover and not cover and I think over the years we have felt a lot of Christian the conservative not well represented by the mainstream media because of that and very little has been done to fix the problem when it makes me laugh there because I feel like we've fixed it will become a privilege and so many other ways. We try to intervene to fix it or we have a discussion about it or there's this big cultural you know whatever to try to equalize things when it comes to ideology.

We sort of ignore the complaints. The people had for eons about the media so I would say a big issue there. That was realizing that a lot of this is pervasive and they may not even realize that it's happening and so that you have to understand to combat it. I think I'll for sure well and that's my background to. I worked as a journalist for years I was an editor I was a reporter and I worked in those newsrooms and the ignorance was unbelievable when it came to Christianity and the problem is that when you have newsrooms that are populated largely by people who are not Christians.

The other problem is that you don't have a lot of Christians going to journalism and I tell people adolescent to. I said there aren't a lot of people going to go to low paying profession. Generally speaking, but there are a lot of conservative Christian to say golly gee I really like to spend my time in a newsroom with those people.

I can't stand. I mean, it's not. It's a calling but you know it's hard to from the Christian's perspective to be there. Absolutely. And that is one of the things right back that only 8% go to church every week.

Okay will that's on obviously was a bias that on them. But it's also on two even though it's difficult to what are we going to do to engage because it's so easy to dismiss people when they're not there right it's easy to see you make fun of Christians or laugh at what they believe. When there's not one sitting next to you, but when there is you might think twice I've experienced those working in media and I've experienced that here in New York. Just being around people who don't agree with me when they get to know me it harder for them to dismiss me friendship and relationship with Bill. Even on a professional level that I think is important to helping equalize some of this. Yeah, that's right. And when you talk about the sector of Hollywood and the entertainment of the arts and all the rest. That's another profession in which a lot of people say there hardly any Christians of the Christians were there. They want to speak up too much because they won't get employed. What about the worldview that Hollywood presents and the impact it has on Americans when in reality there isn't a lot of diversity to watch the Oscars right we've we've had so many examples. I don't care what people believe about Donald Trump what they think whether they like and whether they, them, the reality is it's sort of insufferable to be lectured by Hollywood. And this is going on for eons.

After what George Bush it continues to happen where there's just such a one sidedness and so there's that element, the political element but but one of the things I cover in the book obviously is the face element. What is Hollywood putting out. How is it changing and damaging our culture and I think we know for a fact there are countless studies I recount them in the book showing that what happens to young people when they watch sexual content when they watch violent content, and yet when you look at what's going on on television and movies, there has been an influx of that content. So if we know that that affects young people.

Why are we continuing to put that out what lies Hollywood not concerned they could still make their money look they make a ton of money on kids films and now course, we have the beauty and the beast specifically, but the reality is there is a huge problem when it comes to content television. In particular, you can even turn on prime time without being horrified at what you're watching and it makes it really tough for parents were trying to raise their kids the right way and so we just see that pervasiveness. I think Hollywood has intentionally taken on issues. We know this, and it intentionally and successfully changed perception by ensuring that other viewpoints are not present or that when they do present Christians.

They do in a way that is really not very flattering, so true, so true. I think the Lord every day for DVDs because we have been able to get old movies and old TV shows.

My youngest two girls are right now very obsessed with Little House on the Prairie, which thrills me to know and kiss her.

So I gather so much other stuff I want them watching what about the solution.

The billing I know this is not something you can neatly tie up a little bone a package what it what kind of advice do you give the Christians know about how to operate in a culture like ours, and how to really be salt and light. I think that, are you standing by your value, but we need people to not compromise their value. So if you're going to enter into Hollywood media, universities, which is what I do advocate in the book. I know that other people don't advocate that they want people to Christians, the sort of retreat there's another book out right now that is a very different solution to what I propose that yeah it was fine now. That's not maybe my philosophy of get involved be present but hold onto your values in and look we can all be actors and producers and professors and you. But if that's what you're being called at your skills that you go for it. If you're a parent you see that in your kid you see those qualities in your child. Encourage I think we need to look we keep pulling away and and pulling away. I think we've only exacerbated and metastasized the problem that we have in these arenas and people's lives are your people salvation the matter we need to reach people.

We need to do it not just through preaching to the choir, not just through faith.

Films are great. I love them, don't get me wrong, I think we need to have them. We also need movies that tell good stories from directors who are Christians and actors who are Christians and not just the other way around. You question actors and Christian directors and same with media. We need Christians in media who are working at secular outlet so that is my 30,000 foot view solution and in the book I present examples of people who have done that successfully and continue to do it successfully. While I think that that's excellent because we were never told by Jesus to know but bunker down.

Get your bunker and just wait for me to come back I mean we are supposed to occupy till he comes and be salt and light in a great book. It's called Pauline Billy Hallowell joining us.

So kind of you Billy. It was great to talk to you. It was great to talk to you. Thanks for having me. Thank you very much and will be back right after this. This tenet met for today podcast is sponsored by Hartford Lebanon to Christian ministry, working among 2 million Syrian refugee families have been displaced for just $29 a month you can help a heart for Lebanon reach out in Jesus name to a family of six providing them with food, Christian education survival essentials and the gospel.

Please call now 888-247-5499.

That's 888-247-5499 or Janet met team effort to enable Martin Luther's nation.

Now we know a lot about Luther's journey from medieval Roman Catholicism to his embracing of the gospel of Jesus Christ. But 500 years after the Reformation, relatively, very little is known or discussed about Luther's marriage. She once said he would never get married, only to go on to marry a nun named Katerina von Bora and ended up having a family of his own. So working to find out more about this union now with Michelle to Russia who is author of Katerina and Martin Luther. The radical marriage of a runaway non-and a renegade monk and it's great to have you here Michelle, welcome you grabbing me this is interesting. I have known of the marriage for many years and I love Luther and I love reading Luther but a lot of people don't know about his wife. Why try to tackle this issue of Luther's marriage in particular, I think first of all Katerina herself made an enormous contribution to Christian history and yet we know so little about her though I thoroughly wanted to tell her story and I think understanding their marriage and Luther's role as a father and as a husband can really have alibis for a more complete picture as to who he lives as a theologian and as a reformer and even to simply as a person. Yeah for sure now a little bit because we know a lot about Luther in nailing the 95 theses in the diet of worms and all that he was an Augustinian monk. He said even after the fact did need that he didn't want to get married. How long did he hold to that position after the Reformation broke out that he just didn't have any interest in getting married year is actually held firm to that declaration you wise in favor of marriage for sure. And he wrote a lot about marriage because he was very much interested in bringing marriage.

The respect that he felt that it deserved because there was five up to that .8. What I call a hierarchy of holiness so the Roman Catholic Church really emphasized the clerical monastic life as being holier than and maybe more purer even than, say, a married person's life and Luther disagreed with that he said aptly not you know we are all created equally in the image of God. So whether you're married or whether your him monastic or created equally in the image of God, so he felt very strongly about that but yet he didn't really want to be married. Personally I don't think and what happened wise he would largely receive the ball for Katerina von Bora and a number of her fellow nuns escaping from convent.

They had read some of Luther's writings that were smuggled into this clicker convent's writings against celibacy and they were convicted and so they fled from the convent. But the problem lies a woman during that time of Katerina standing because she was of noble birth. She pretty much had to get married. There were really only two choices he could be a nine or she could get married and Luther felt responsible for her all of the other none to escape from the convent that night were married off except for Katerina. Two years later she was still not married, and I think you really did feel initially responsibility to her while well then it doesn't sound so much, at least initially.

Like the great love story like he was swept off his feet.

She was swept off her feet. How did they finally get together and agree to get married and what was the process like do we know that have a funny story so Luther tried that Katerina with a couple of different suitors want relationship sort of felt real because the man parents did not want him marrying a former non-right. The bright and the second suitor. She refused to marry, which was a very bold move on her part. He just simply did not like him and so what she eventually did what he said to Luther, while I will marry you, or I will marry this other person who is a mutual friend actually propose the Luther which is crazy.

Unheard of for that time when she did that. What was his response.

Well, he basically said you as you know, like I said I don't think he wanted to.

They certainly were not in love with each other. He married her.

I have a sense of duty and obligation and he married him really as a means to survive. He just really needed to be married by what's interesting about Katerina is that she did not want to be married, you just any person, and as time passed, their relationship grew, they did come to love each other and you know, respect and trust, and they had a very tender sweet loving relationship by it didn't start out in the sort of romantic Hollywood way that we might like no different time for six cold rose at the time I Katerina was 26 and Luther 142 and he was older that was when I was recalling the same as middle-aged Luther by that time. Even Katerina at age 26 is considered middle-aged because typically people didn't live nearly as long as they do today.

That's true.

What she liked what we know about her background. She was a non-we know, but but what was she like is a person what all did you find out in your research now enjoying you a complete picture of Katerina because sadly none of her letters to Luther were preserved so we only have eight of Katerina's letter is total and those were all written to people after he died so they reported having to do with legal and business issues a statement really on how society really did not value women's voices. During that time, I mean her letters were definitely not Catholic you think now that is just unbelievable that we don't have her side of the story is a little tricky to put together her personality based on what other people said and what Luther himself said about her by.

We know that he was feisty and rather bold in me to turn down a marriage proposal so we know that about her.

He was also an extremely hard worker. I mean literally would get up at four in the morning. Work a 17 hour day running Luther household and his Gaston.

He was a dynamo really. I mean I guess I got tired reading actually living her life. No microwaves back then there was a lot more work to be done and you imagine even doing the laundry.

No, no, not at all. I would never make it, but yes 17 hour days that's I mean we complain about with all our modern conveniences. But back then now is a totally different story, exactly. Dad is wild and said they ended up getting married and then I know that they lost a few children along the way, how many children did they end up having biological children. Two of those children died wine as an infant and wine as 13-year-old two daughters passed away. They all thought. It was 11 children so during that time people died at a young age, from the plague from other illnesses and so, Katerina and Martin Luther remembered died and so they ended up adopting their nieces and nephews and raising them for they had a full household of 11 children and six of their own and that was really a tough thing for them wasn't losing a daughter. So what is Elizabeth and Magdalena were the daughters that they write yeah I would screw excruciating as you can probably imagine they really deeply grieved the loss of their two daughters and I think especially their 13-year-old daughter Magdalena just because she was older and I really appreciate it. Luther's candor on the subject of grief. He admitted that the death of his daughter showed him and his faith to the core and I really appreciated his honesty about that and really willing to admit that his faith even Luther's faith wasn't always rocksolid that it wavered and that he had some real difficult conversations with God as they walked through the tragedy of losing their daughters yes yeah and that's the thing when you can when you can go back and read the works of great theologians and church figures like Luther and say he was really human being that actually yeah it really makes a big difference in how you end up assessing that person who may seem very remote in church history, Elvis, and they become very very human wealth were to come back with Michelle to rush about her book. Katerina and Martin Luther stay with us here in Chama for today when an abortion minded woman walks into a pre-born center. It is a divine appointment is where she encounters the love of Jesus Christ and has the opportunity to meet the beautiful life growing inside of her and find out that every babies life matters that I got here how strong her. Harvey was always laughing like she was supposed to be here, but it didn't matter what anybody else told me all that mattered was that I was blessed with the ability to carry license out of my body and that baby was supposed to be here for something that was all that mattered. 80% of women in crisis pregnancies choose life after meeting their babies on ultrasound. Pre-born is the largest provider of free ultrasounds in the country which you join with pre-born and Janet Baffert today for $140 you can sponsor five ultrasounds and help save five babies lives. All gifts are tax-deductible, and 100% of your donation goes toward saving babies lives to donate, call 855402 baby 855-402-2229 or there's a banner to click and Janet met are you among the millions of Americans to feel uncertain when it comes to your health care as a Christian are you looking for healthcare that doesn't violate your morals and convictions were happy to inform you that there is a solution and that solution is liberty healthcare liberty healthcare is a community of like-minded Christians who work together to pay for their medical costs. It allows you to decide how, when and where you will access healthcare so you can make the best choice for you and your family.

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The radical marriage of a runaway non-in a renegade monk and no returning to the title Michelle when you talk about the marriage of these two is being radical in contacts because 500 years after the Reformation.

All of us would probably say so what they got married what so radical about that. What was so radical about it. Primarily that he was among and she was cloistered not at least former formerly so was just about warrant an abhorrent thought to Roman Catholics at the time that the clergy and the monastics would then sort of stepped down from the position of purity and holiness and third step into this ordinary regular life and and Mary and now engage in a kind of sexuality that regular people engaged and it just they just couldn't fathom that you know is this absolutely unheard of. Luther was not the very first monk to get married by human right out there. I mean, there'd only been maybe a handful of monastic marriages prior to their doubt. It was just completely radical in every sense of the word very revolutionary. What pushback did they get my guy so much mean the reformer, the leaders of the of the Reformation or against that even Luther's closest friends because they felt that this was going to distract him from his work so he got pushback even from LeBlanc that would who was his.

Probably his best friend at the time and amended generally from the church. I mean, Katerina Ashley was vilified.

I mean, he was just I can't even repeat some of the language that she would call you now is defensive. He was considered a witch and they were both considered heretics and she was especially disconcerted. Barry threatening. There was something about a female monastic and nine coming out of the convent marrying one of the important religious man of the time I think was seen as a very threatening to religious authorities at the time right but you know they really gave legs didn't to Luther's theology because he was advocating for marriage and saying there isn't any biblical prescription that that people in the ministry can't get married.

This is wrong, and had he not gotten married. Wouldn't it probably have been the case that he couldn't have been seen as so authoritative on that matter. Because he lived what he said that's true yeah I really think that that was one of the tipping point for ham. I feel that he felt that he had you sort of live out his theology.

Yeah, it was one thing for him to write about marriage from theological standpoint, but it was another thing for him to demonstrate that he was letting that out as well write it seemed to be someone I'm recalling some of the writings that I've read with Luther referencing Katerina von Bora very affectionate with his wife like really seemed to adore her and appreciate what she brought to his life. What what you glean from some of his writings about what she gave him an marriage so we one another like you said you know tender toward her and the thing that really surprised me and I think it's just because like you said earlier, we sort of put Luther up still with some of the big religious leaders in Christian history and it's hard to think of him as a regular human being made had really witty repartee between them. They like around a teased one another. His letters are just joking me affectionate and really sweet. I was very very surprised by that. And part of me a little bit.

It's neat.

What you say you know referencing what you just said a couple minutes ago about all their detractors and those who said analysis scandal.

As you can get married. Your monk and she's a nine. What difference do you think his marriage did make to his work because he can't table talk and he wrote so much and preach so much. Did his marriage help them or did it hurt him. How much can you really figure that out from what you researched and I think it helped him. I think toward the end of the that the Reformation would definitely happen regardless of whether Martin Luther married or not by marrying Katerina currently made him a different reformer. He really had jurisdiction over the household and by the household.

I mean their business transactions. Their financial transaction. He managed their real estate at multiple properties. She helped him with his manuscript he what kind of his go to woman in terms of making sure that his writings got the printer on time and he really really dependent on her a lot for more than just you know putting food on the table and sort of that traditional domestic expectation that you might think about when you're thinking of you know, the role of the wife yeah really stepped above and beyond that and you consider all the children where they had six biological children and then fostered as many as 11 children. This on top of you know, rearing all those children taking care of the household in dealing with real estate and helping out with the writing to me she sounds like like you said earlier really a dynamo. Yeah, he was for sure. And you know where to live, hand on father and a lot of ways, nothing else. That surprised me and something that we don't hear a lot about. He traveled a lot and of course he was working a lot, but when he was home sick children were very much part of the Luther daily household and they were just underfunded you know when his daddy he writes about how he is working on particular project in one of his kids crawling around in his diaper was a very real life luck at his life as a father and a husband and as a theologian while yeah and when you talk about the Luther's releasing child rearing his holy work. I think this is very significant because obviously he had a lot of catechetical training. You had Luther's catechism and you know the emphasis on teaching the 10 Commandments and the Creed and the Lord's prayer. This is a regular part of their life was in it that he was spiritually training and biblically training these kids that he had.

He didn't just throw them a Katerina leave the house. He took it very seriously know for sure.

They sat around the table each night for supper and and in the morning and read through the Bible and recited the Lord's prayer and like he said he wrote the small catechism when young children in mind and wrote that using his own children part of ad primary example of the audience to whom he was writing so again he lived that out and in real life now.

How long did they stay married.

How long did the union last live. I should know this, but it was about 1 PM on the 21 year 21 years, and then what was it like at the end who proceeded who in death and and what kind of told her that take the hardware writing a biography because no biography sort of usually ends with a person's death that they have passed on. Though the last chapters are about Luther that he passed away first, and Katerina followed a few years later. Unfortunately, he was away traveling and so he was not at his side when he passed away.

That was very hard for her high. He did have two of the children of his sons were traveling with him so they were there and Katerina's life that really really hard after her husband passed away and he was sort of entrenched in legal battles in fighting for custody of her children now without a husband.

Like I said earlier, it was very difficult for women. They just did not have that sort of independence that that we are accustomed in this day and age right right, she who is fighting custody for for her own children while being so much faith in Katerina that when he wrote his last will and testament. He put her as the guardian of their children, which was unheard of during that time. So all unmarried women were required to have a male guardian.

So when your husband died, you were appointed a male guardian, someone who would oversee your finances and your legal issues, then you know the decision that you would make for your children and really turned on its head and said no. Katerina has he has done an outstanding job raising the children and she should be the guardian.

What he failed to do was get a attorney sign off on his will and testament. So yeah, it became a legal battle for Katerina to really even hat make decisions for her own children goodness.

Well it is a fascinating story you can read about it in the book Katerina and Martin Luther. The radical marriage of a runaway non-and renegade month. Fascinating stuff.

Michelle DeRosa joining us this is great to have your thank you so much for being with us you too.

Thanks again.

God bless you and thanks for listening to Jennifer today will see what Janet met thanks a lot for being with us

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