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Janet - Mefferd - Today - Terry Mortenson (Genesis) Todd Outcalt (Virtues)

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The Truth Network Radio
February 17, 2021 4:00 am

Janet - Mefferd - Today - Terry Mortenson (Genesis) Todd Outcalt (Virtues)

Janet Mefferd / Janet Mefferd

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February 17, 2021 4:00 am

What you believe about the historicity of Adam and Eve affects your whole understanding of God's Word. Dr. Terry Mortenson joins me to talk about his book, "Searching for Adam: Genesis & the Truth About Man's Origin." Plus: Can our virtues sometimes undermine the Christian message? Todd Outcalt joins me to discuss his book, "The Seven Deadly Virtues." That's next time on Wednesday's JANET MEFFERD TODAY.

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This archived broadcast of Janet Mefford today is brought to you by pre-born for $140 you can provide ultrasounds to five women in crisis pregnancies. Call now 855402, baby.

That's 855-402-2229 or Janet is our confidence is in Christ alone is sort no.

Then we see Adam referenced again in the New Testament verse 20 and chapter 15 for example says, but now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who are asleep.

For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. Or, as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive in their other great references as well such as in Romans chapter 5 the Bible clearly speaks about Adam and Eve as real people through whom sin entered the world and from whom we are all ultimately descended, but there are attacks today, both within the church and outside of the church on whether or not Adam and Eve were real people. And if there really was a fall. How do we defend biblical truth against these accusations and arguments. We are to tackle that today with Dr. Terry Mortensen, speaker, writer and researcher for answers in Genesis and editor of the book were to be discussing a very important one searching for Adam Genesis and the truth about man's origin and so great to have you here, Dr. Mortensen, welcome to good to be with.

Good to have you here about people attacking the historicity of Adam. Can you give us a little lay of the land here on why this is happening and where it's happening exactly will of course it really comes out of the writings of Charles Darwin 1859 he wrote his origin of species, and just hinted that human evolution, but then in 1871 he wrote the scent of man which was a full-blown treatise on human evolution from apelike creatures, but that all was built on the foundation of the idea of millions of years and the idea was developed in the late 18th and early 19th century, and that the church gave gave away the biblical chronology of the biblical flood before Darwin ever came on the scene and then just over the decades. First thing, except animal evolution, but not the evolution of man and then eventually human evolution and evangelicals are just a few decades behind the liberals. That doesn't bode well for us then because in just a short amount of time as the trends continue, then will be believing total lies about things.

That's right wow so inside the church because you do hear some arguments from male theologians here and there saying that wasn't a real person and this is it real history in Genesis. What is the theological argument against Adam having been a real person there, not theological and biblical argument very loosely deal with the biblical text, and they are all of the theologians who are saying this are just operating on the assumption that science has proven that we evolved from apelike creatures, and so therefore you've got to reinterpret the text and I've read a lot of these arguments or or seen them and they just very loosely deal with the biblical text. They don't deal with all the relevant data and I like to call it exegetical gymnastics. The way they reinterpret the text and that's an important point when you said, they're not making a theological argument through taking information that they have and foisting it upon the Bible but how did they really ruin the Bible. What do they have to ruin in order to make the non-historical atoms fit into their scheme of things.

What what kind of violence do they do to the text, well they for example, they'll look the Bible says that God created man, but it doesn't say how well in fact it does in Genesis 27 it says God made man from the dust of the ground. He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and he became a living being a living creature. He did God that the text is just absolutely crystal clear. He did not make a living creature breathed into the living creature, the breath of God, and it became man exactly the opposite of what the text and then with Eve.

Of course she was made from a living creature which was Adam, but she was made from his rib and there's no way you can harmonize that text with the evolutionary story so you have to just ignore the verses and just say well you know it says in Genesis 1 that God created Adam and Eve, but it doesn't say how well it does in chapter 2. Yeah so they're there, seen it, but not seen it or at least ignoring it, and in favor of other outside information. So how do we approach this.

When we when we're up against somebody who says many more real people. Where's that, where's a good place to begin to come again stats with Scripture and also with science. Well, I would start with one of the passages that you read referenced in your opening that is in first Corinthians, Paul makes it crystal clear in first Corinthians 15 minutes death came through Adam and life comes through Christ and Paul makes the same point in Romans five, Paul refers to the fact that Eve was deceived in first Timothy two and in second Corinthians 11 three so Paul takes Genesis as literal history and Jesus in Mark 10 was asked a question about divorce by the Pharisees. They said Moses permitted us to divorce our wife what you what you say and Jesus took them right back to Genesis 1 and two quoted from both chapters and said Adam and Eve were back there at the beginning of creation. That is the basis for marriage of one man to one woman for life. And so Jesus took Genesis as literal history so I could start with those but then I would go right back to Genesis 27 where which I just referred to and about the creation of Adam from dust and grit and in Genesis 2 2221 and 22 that talks about God creating Eve from the rib you just there's just no you can't mythologizing or symbolize that language and be faithful to what the text actually says yes that's a great point and when you talk about Romans five. Here's one line that really jumps out at me from this passage. This is from verse 14 nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses. How can Paul be referencing a time period from Adam until Moses, when very few people would dispute the actual historical existence of Moses. But are they really opining that Paul was taking a fake guy and in talking about an era of time beginning with someone who didn't exist up until somebody who definitively did exist, like Moses, well, they won't come out and say that because obviously their evangelical listeners wouldn't would like that but that is the implication of what they're saying.

And you know another another very important text is Luke three where Luke gives the genealogy of Jesus through Mary all the way back to Adam. If Adam wasn't a real man. Then Jesus was descended from a metaphor. That's a great point yet so it's critical, it is critical that's right. And so there's a link there not just between the existence of Adam and existence of Christ in historical terms but also our salvation right because we were looking at Romans five.

Just as in one man. We fell in the second Adam, we are saved, if Adam is gone then doesn't that have some effect on whether or not we can trust in Christ. That's exactly right. I mean, you end up having a Savior who died from mythological problem and Indonesia mythological Savior. Interesting.

A few years ago. The, the American atheists posted an article on their website at Christmas time and they said this know Adam and Eve means no need for a Savior.

It also means that the Bible cannot be trusted as a source of unambiguous literal truth.

It is completely unreliable because it all begins with the myth and build on that as a basis no fall of man means no need for atonement and no need for Redeemer's miming. That makes sense for she is true that makes perfect sense. Yeah. Is this really in the final analysis, a creative way of denying sin. It is you if you if you do not literal, historical Adam, you, you end up denying indirectly or directly a literal fall and that just destroys the foundation of the gospel are dear those who would say outwardly in the church. Even some of the seminarians, or theologians, to whom question the historicity of Adam when they go so far as to say, I'm not sure there was a fall yesterday might, but if there if there really trying to come across to the evangelical world that there still evangelical they won't come out and say that explicitly most likely okay because their evangelical listeners was the most know enough to say that's not right. Right.

A bridge too far will it take a very quick break will come back with Dr. Terry Morrison searching for Adam Genesis and the truth I this is Janet Mefford spending a few minutes with Matt Ellis with liberty help share a national nonprofit healthcare sharing ministry have a lot of questions today about their healthcare coverage is it that liberty helps share works will we work on an individual basis of mutual aid. So it's not the pooling of funds. It's not a big complex bureaucratic mess really use when ever you have a healthcare bill. Our members go in and share in your medical expenses and we have seen decrease of costs. The decrease of complexity and the increase of accessibility and freedom we change the whole script on its head when it comes to healthcare were not the whole large third-party payment systems that dictate to you to your healthcare. We set you free in your healthcare where you're guiding it based on your principles and beliefs. Why do so many members choose and recommend liberty help share what was a lot of reasons. Frankly, what a lot of people start with is cost healthcare has become very expensive trying to pay that every single month or actually going to the doctor's office and having to take care of massive medical bills that big drawback from third-party payment systems and with liberty culture. We've done everything we can to try to bring the cost down as much as possible but once people are a part of the community and see that it is an affordable option for them, they start to see that they are helping their neighbor each and every month go to bed every night knowing that you contributed to somebody else who has a need and that's what being a part of the community is really all about. Thanks Matt more information about liberty healthcare is that's liberty help or their phone number is 855-585-4237 you are listening to you and your PR back on for today my guest, Dr. Terry Mortensen from answers in Genesis were discussing the book he's edited searching for Adam Genesis and the truth about man's origin. What is this matter so much would you say Dr. Mortensen. This question of the historicity of Adam because I'm sure there are people who its hourly care of Adam was true or false, or real or not real.

We know the world is sinful.

I know Christ died for my sins.

What is it matter if Adam was a real person.

What would you say that was a real person.

He was father of the whole human race matters in terms of the foundation of marriage. God created marriage.

It's not a social construct created by humans, God created Adam and Eve, the first two humans. He made a male and a female gender is not a human construct you. You have the whole foundation of the gospel is destroyed.

If Adam wasn't a real person if if he was just descended from a lower animal then he's just an animal, and there's no purpose or meaning to life and we are witnessing we are witnessing in America.

The moral chaos and insanity of of our culture because we have rejected the authority of the word of God in the church and in the culture and redefining marriage redefining morality. We've killed 58 million babies because the what's growing in the womb is not really human being. It's all related, Adam, and the authority of Scripture. Yeah well said right because the been this huge battle were all fighting against not only the read redefinition of marriage but also the they don't like the binary data like male and female. So if you get rid of Adam and Eve. It gives you one more excuse.

I guess to go forward and say why should it just be to yeah exactly ain the animal world. You see, they don't call it this, but the actions of animals are the equivalent of polygamy, rape, abandonment of wife and kids. You see all of that in animal behavior and some evolutionists have tried to argue that there is evidence of homosexual behavior in the animal world itself were just gorgeous animals than what's the difference do all those things course, of course, and fewer and fewer people are standing up and saying common sense things like that were not animals. Which brings us to another important point, and that is the belief that humans evolved from apelike creatures.

This is part and parcel of Darwinian evolution. Finally answer that question and how does the historicity of Adam address that issue. Well obviously to the scientific claim and so we need to respond with scientific arguments and so in searching for Adam. We have two chapters. The fossil evidence and we have a chapter on the genetics written by two decide to sue her PhD's, trained in genetics and we show that the fossil evidence really does not confirm the evolutionary story what they're using is a lot of imagination and artwork to convince people and the genetics actually confirms not only that all people descended from two people, a male and a female but that actually genetics the mutation rates that are observed revealed that Adam and Eve lived about 6000 years ago as the Bible says so those two chapters are those three chapters are very powerful. We also have two chapters on the anatomy of man and man is is significantly different from the apes in lots of ways amount of hair. The sensitivity of nerve endings on the fingers that the statute of the spine. The ability to speak a language man is not just a little bit higher than innate man is categorically different. Absolutely. What about the question of going from a less complex creature like an eight and end the idea that were supposed to believe a less complex creature can eventually evolve into a more complex creature yeah mean what we know about natural selection of mutations.

It does not. Those processes do not create new genetic information to change one kind of creature into another kind of creature, and so were were being the whole world is being deceived by a massive myth masquerading as scientific fact. And so, over the last 56 years God has been raising up people with high with you know PhD's in science who are refuting these arguments and exposing the deception of these arguments and people just need to become informed. That's why we produce this multifaceted book dealing with both the biblical historical and scientific side of the issue which is so important. What about the issue of when death came and this is something that is very significant when were making the biblical case and that is that because Adam and he fell into sin, then they were cursed they were thrown out of the garden but then they were now cursed to death and they know we because were all sinners, we all die, but evolution over the millions of years idea says that death proceeded even those who would hold if I'm saying this right to theistic evolution would say that over millions of years things died before Adam and Eve that that just sets everything on his hat on its head. How the world can you have death before the fall. Well, that's a massive problem that I've read lots of literature by old earth creationists and theistic evolutionists, older creations being those who don't accept Darwinian evolution, but do accept the millions of years in the Big Bang and the geological ages. Yeah, it's a massive problem and I've read a lot of literature by those people and I've interacted with them, and most of them never deal with the relevant biblical texts that refute that idea, namely the last three verses of Genesis 1 that Sadie originally man and the animals and birds were vegetarian and a very good creation and then Genesis 3 where God cursed the serpent who deceived Eve and the animals. He judged Eve with increased pain in childbirth of physical judgment. Adam and Eve began to die physically, he cursed the ground.

Thorns and thistles began to grow and then you get to Romans chapter 8 Romans five does not deal with animal death, but Romans eight does because it says the whole creation, the whole nonhuman creation is groaning in bondage to corruption waiting to be set free. When Christ comes again and gives believers their resurrection body so it really it that the millions of years idea really destroys what the Bible says about the original very good creation what it says about the fall and the present groaning curse creation and what it says about the future redemptive work of Christ when he comes and is Revelation 22 says he removes the curse yeah all so good and so important, and when we look at how this finds its way into the church and all of those who would argue for theistic evolution, you have some combo you can believe, is a Christian. This gets back to the central question of the authority of Scripture and how into many parts of the church. We have wandered away from the authority of Scripture and how great the need is for us to get back to it. What sorts of questions do you think are most important for us to address relating to Adam in the fall when we encounter people who say I have no problem reconciling the Bible with evolution well again I would go back to what Paul and Jesus said about Adam and Eve and that they built their their teaching about marriage, about the gospel on the foundational truth of of Genesis and they took it a literal history you can't find any biblical writer that treats Genesis as figurative or a parable or a prophetic vision or some symbolic poetry. They all relate to those chapters as if it's straightforward, literal history, so if I don't believe what they believe, then I'm not really being a faithful disciple of Jesus Christ right that's right. And so it all begins with Genesis and it all begins with understanding as you said that this is just poetry at the beginning of the word of God. This is historical narrative makes me really sad when I hear about how the church always accepted the historicity of Genesis up until a couple hundred years ago and one wonders will the church be able to go back and and hold to the truth once more universally and reject. Finally, Darwin's theory is there. I mean, what you see on the landscape on as you look forward on the horizon. Well from a human perspective, I'm, I'm rather pessimistic because I'm involved in the Evangelical theological Society. I go every year to the annual meeting in from what I can see we are seeing growing influence in the seminaries of evolution and it's been 200 years of compromise with the millions of years but now are seeing more influence in evolution. Just this year at the annual meeting of the Evangelical theological Society, there were four books by four different publishers all promoting evolution and millions of years, and what a lot of Christians and a lot of Christian theologians don't see who are concerned about the denial of Adam is that historically we got to this mess because the church rejected the biblical chronology and the and the flood of Noah. And I really unpack that historical dissent in the last chapter of searching for Adam so we can't just fight for Adam and then say oh yeah but the age of the earth doesn't matter, because as we've already referenced the. The millions of years is millions of years of death and bloodshed and violence and extinction, and natural disasters and asteroid slamming into the earth and hurricanes and tornadoes that can't be part of the very good creation, or we just totally redefined words recently have going back to Romans five just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sin. For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of him who was to calm the word of God is authoritative and I'm so glad to recommend you searching for Adam Dr. Terry Mortensen with us from answers in Genesis, thank you so much Dr. Mortensen, good to talk to you this archived broadcast of Janet Mefford today is brought to you by pre-born for $140 you can provide ultrasounds to five women in crisis pregnancies. Call now 855402, baby.

That's 855-402-2229 or Janet here's your name Mark chapter 10 gives us an interesting picture of the ambition of James on this. I asked Jesus to grant that in his glory, they would be able to sit it is right in his left that Jesus told them they didn't know what they were asking and he went on to say whoever wishes to be great among you will be your servant whoever wishes to be first among you will be the slave of all. For the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.

Now Jesus answer here flies in the face of a lot of what we see in today's culture that many of us commands like the desire to be strong and powerful to be ambitious or recognized Jesus showed that in his humility, and in his service and in his sacrifice. There's a better way and joining me now is Todd out count who is been a pastor for 35 years. He's written more than 30 bucks and will be talking about his latest which addresses the temptations we all feel in our pursuit of goodness. It's called the seven deadly virtues and Todd, thank you so much for being with us today. Absolutely you know it's rather unusual.

As you know, to hear somebody speaking about virtues is being deadly. So tell us a little bit about what you're talking about here. Sure, well, you know we've all heard about setting that we shared and so this book is really you might say, the flipside of that is out.

How do we sometimes in the Christian life and our pursuit of goodness or lover family, her faith, and I know I love your quote there earlier about.

Sometimes our pursuit of success. How do we define that what is what the downside of this pursuit, so that's what this book is really about.

Yes, that virtues are often what land us in trouble.

That's one of the things that you say in the book why you see virtues can land us in trouble really interesting as I was studying the saints to the years there.

There are several what it had some interesting quotes about the downside of virtue. For example, St. Chrysostom had a quote word virtue is there are many snares and likewise John Scott once said that no vice is found within the shadow some virtue so centuries ago Christians were recognizing that there is a downside to our pursuit of virtues because sometimes we can step aside from the grace of God in our pursuit of success or power, and other things it may be alluring to that's true.

What what about in the realm of safety got a chapter here and keeping your faith without destroying the faith of others that something we all would all like to not do is destroy the faith of others that happen because faith obviously is a wonderful thing to have faith in the gospel and faith in Christ.

What about the effect that that can have no the dark side of that virtue. Well, it is because the so-called sermon on the Mount, Jesus warns us to we were practicing your piety before others. Yes, we can translate that, of course, you think about righteousness or we were practicing your faith be seen by others. So I really tried to explore what the dark side of faith might be in terms of how sometimes in looking up our own faith. Or maybe your own faith traditions, we can actually destroy the faith of others. So I tried it I try to play with a little bit. Thank you. To try to help people understand how sometimes our faith can be a baggage as well, particularly as we try to pursue a set of beliefs rather than pursuing the love of God, of the great God's will and and we think of James saying that faith without works is dead, so you'll see an example.

For example, somebody will say well I believe this doctrinal statement and I'm checked off on everything that's Orthodox and I make sure that all my doctrines in line with historic Christian faith. That, but then turn around and act like a Pharisee in other ways that can be really, really undermining to, for example, a young Christian, who would see that say will wait a minute. Just because you have all your eyes.any new tees crossed, but if you act mean to somebody or you act self-righteous.

That is not sort of undoing what you profess absolutely your spot on what try to pursue here. Chapter really were called to embody the love of Jesus, and I think it's so true where your work will really trying to be about Christian people is to embody the love of Christ and how we live that out, not just that we profession but we have to walk, walk, talk, talk, yes, and it's so different is to see a Christian who is concerned about.

I'm going to be good in this way I'm good to be virtuous in this way. I'm going obey the Lord here, but leaves behind lots I have seen this and in different people's lives.

I'm sure I've experienced in my life where it is almost a better thing to be able to concentrate and loving the Lord to the great commandment and then loving your neighbor as yourself. It seems that is your pursuing virtue, though sometimes the self-centeredness of it gets in the way do you find that to be the case absolutely is. I very challenging book reader write in that respect because so often I had to find myself looking in the mirror yes about wow you know I found myself in these places and times where I I haven't really love people the way that I should have or could have love rather than thinking they sometimes begin about my faith as being set of rules or simply beliefs or doctrines that I'm following brother really trying to live out as you said the Lord's will for others for my life. What would you say is the difference between God's way of laws and loving our way. One of the things that I go back to this is in my own United Methodist tradition, John Wesley as Wesley had these three simple rules which said first do no harm. Then, secondly, to do good. And thirdly, to stay in love with God.

If we think about the simplest of the that that were called first do no harm, but then that we really want to stay in love with God and we met.

That's where our faith really should be abiding naturally. The foundation of our faith is is really one to love the Lord and follow his path. Yes, exactly. That's right well and you think about John 15, where Jesus says, apart from me you can do nothing if were not rooted and grounded in the Lord then what sort of fruit or we can produce anyway you exactly yeah now yeah now it's interesting because another aspect that you touch upon in the book is family now. We love family. We love our families.

We love her husband's wives are kids or parents all the rest.

What about the difference though between our families being paramount versus God's family. This I think this is a very fascinating point that you bring up. As we think about something that Jesus said when people came to Jesus there. Several of those interludes in the Gospels where people say your families outside the door here. Your met your mother and your brothers and you will my mother and my brothers are those who do will God and I think we all have this understanding that the church is the family of God, and sometimes here in the barn of the waters of baptism are much deeper than the lawn of a blood and we we will have those experiences where we can set a you know other people are part of my family and other believers, and sometimes it goes back some dishes in the church about people calling each other brother and sister in the household of faith sure I often hear from people who are single you say if we focus too much on family family family, which is wonderful. Where do I fit in is somebody who's not yet married so that they can be a problem as well. It sure can. I have a lot of experience.

I know that you have to wear. We've we've all experienced may be in our pursuit of trying to have strong families like you just say we we sometimes have a character to ostracize those who maybe don't have a solid family life, or maybe they do have may have and have the background that we were ourselves of experienced like I came from a very solid, very loving family but not everyone has come out of the family experience like that of the church to become that absolutely and there's room for everybody in the church is brothers and sisters in Christ. I love that passage you mentioned Mark three where Jesus mother and brothers arrived. They said your mother and your brothers are here and he said, but who is that for whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother and it's so important for us to remember, you're absolutely right about that for you to take a very quick break and come back with Todd Alcala in his book is called the seven deadly virtues temptations in our pursuit of goodness and will be back right after this effort today is proud to partner with pre-born to help save babies lives by. This is Dan Steiner, Pres. freeborn, and I want to send a big thank you for standing for life to you because of listeners like you in 2020 freeborn sponsored over 45,000 free ultrasound sessions to women in need saved over 31,000 babies and prayed with over 6500 women to receive Jesus Christ as their Lord. The battle rages on in 2021, and an even greater level, and our goal is to give Planned Parenthood the biggest competition ever. We can join us in saving babies lives. Freeborn funds pregnancy centers across the nation so they can offer free ultrasound to women in crisis pregnancies. Ultrasound is a game changer because one abortion minded women actually see their babies in their wombs for themselves. 80% of the time they choose life, would you please join us at Janet Mefford today to support the ministry of pre-born for $140 you can provide five free ultrasounds to women in crisis pregnancies. One ultrasound is just $28 and every gift helps to donate please call now 855402, baby. That's 855-402-2229 or there's a banner to All gifts are tax-deductible, and 100% of your gift goes directly toward saving babies. I don't know where my life without her. You can get involved and you can help save a life for a gift of $140.05 free ultrasounds will be offered to women in crisis pregnancies.

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855402, baby. That's 855402 baby 855-402-2229 or there's a banner to you're listening to Mefford today and here's Joe where mankind today my guest is Todd count. His book is called the seven deadly virtues temptations in our pursuit of goodness and some very fascinating points. He's been making here at the virtues they talk about in the book Todd is power.

Now I thought that was kind of interesting because power we don't necessarily think of is a virtue necessarily.

Why did you approach that particular subject. As one of the deadly virtues well.

As a pastor I sometimes I feel like I'm giving too much power, too much authority and there has to be kind of a understanding and an awareness of the power that sometimes we can wield over other people and also thinking about some of the ways that whether it's economics or politics or something else that can come into play in our faith that can take the power away from God and put it in the hands of people.

I think that's something I'm chapter really tries to grapple with our understandings of power explained that a little bit more because I'm interested in that there are certain sectors of the church at times that like to talk about our authority or the churches authority and certainly there's an authority structure and so forth, but it can be abused at times. How is that factor into what you just said about God having all power and how we should approach the subject of power and authority. Well, I might go back briefly to the Lord's prayer prayer we pray for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. So were not looking to our own power and authority were looking to God's power and authority as the foundation for our lives and I think about. Also someone like Dietrich Bonhoeffer who actually spent the last portion of his life in prison.

Having other people having power over him but yet recognizing that really was God who had the ultimate power and ultimately others could not harm him because he was with him and God writes we can all grapple with some of those those the concepts of power today, whether they be economic or political even the power that sometimes we see in the church and maybe manipulation might be another word we could substitute the power. Yeah, I think sometimes we can have manipulation as well in the body of Christ and is it interesting goes back to the chapter 10 of Mark that I was quoting at the outset of our interview were Jesus as the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many. Here was Jesus who deserves all glory, honor and power as God himself in human flesh and yet he demonstrated servant leadership.

What sort of model would you say Jesus should be for us who truly is powerful way more powerful than will ever be and how he treated his power in his own life, a great quote I love what you just quoted there because that is so true, Jesus pointed out that our real real power.

Real authority is when they become servant leaders because he said those who serve best to serve most are those who will be lifted up. The last shall be first person the last. So as we think about as you think about power what it means and within the church. We are looking to be to live a life of servant hood rather than the life of power that is clearly consumed or displayed just within how we how the world might understand power, right, and that such an important reminder in this kind of goes hand-in-hand with another aspect of these sadly seven deadly virtues, one of which is success. Now success is not again. People say well I do want to be successful in what I'm doing my job or at school or what have you. How can that turn wrong.

How can people get caught up in success and then it becomes something that is really bad.

Well I think I can see this on my own life so often. You know, we do have a chance to think about all my life I pursuit first of all economic but economic but academic successes. Early in my life and thinking about ways that we like to be successful or have other people see us being successful. Whether that's having successors as a pastor leading a growing church. You know, getting up a larger budget. All these kinds of things they can be very alluring and yet the same time you were not called to be successful. Mother Teresa has a quick great quote there that were called to be faithful not to be successful so we do have to grapple with that. I think, oh yeah, and even within the church. I'm sure you feel this is a pastor. Every pastor I talked to does feel this.

But there is a lot of pressure out how big is your church or how many new people came in this year or how big was yours and that sort of thing why you think we focus on those things as much as we do, because the Bible isn't obsessed with those things know about it all. We live in a society where that actually focus we think about business and the fact that there may people in our congregations that are that are part of the business world where that is the key. You have to have a growing business, you have to have greater profitability.

Year-by-year so we can get caught up in some of those numbers and being a Methodist Hospital often been all about numbers.

You know, take keeping copious records of our growth and so forth. So it's easy to get caught up in it, but that's not what were called to be or to do now and you put is an antidote there. The allure of grace versus the lure of success. How does the allure of grace solve the problem of getting caught up in the lure of success were not always going to be. Sometimes were going to fail but yet our lives are not indicative of our failures but our lives are centered and grounded in the grace of God were were called to the trust in God's grace even when were not successful.

When looking to what seemingly on the outside would be Christ failures but yet they were really successes because he he came to serve all and that's very true and you can always judge by appearances as you don't know exactly what's coming down the pike. What about the good news you say there is goodness that can lead us to God and goodness that can lead us to believe we are self-sufficient and privileged.

So you're talking about when good isn't good enough, God is still good that and where your thinking was going in that direction on goodness, leading us to God versus goodness that makes us feel good about ourselves, which is a good well walking, talking to people about the Christian life. Sometimes people think that the goal of the Christian life is to become a good person and yet Jesus said no one is good but God alone, and so being good is in our ultimate goal that followed were striving for were really striving to avail more and more of our lives to the grace of God to the goodness of God because God alone is good and so that is that it is also something that I think you very alluring to listen and can lead us down a dark path is because we start to think about our own goodness, and we just overlook the goodness of God we can get this a very dark and be places yes and I think the Sanchez Sadducees and the Pharisees and how they got caught up in how good they were keeping the law and how Jesus was always cutting them down to size you have in The law you think you Them off at with the difference between the publican and the Pharisee springs to mind another one who is beating his breast, and say no. Lord have mercy on me a sinner versus the one who said all thank you God that you didn't make me like that guy over there seems to be a trap. We can also easily fall into is thinking were doing pretty well and God is pretty pleased with us. Certainly we can get right where we think that we need the grace of God we are alone are sufficient. Goodness is good enough but the gospel tells us her goodness is a good enough God's goodness, it is you keep your head on straight about that in the day today though understanding I'm a sinner saved by God's grace only Christ can save me. I'm not good in and of myself. That's why I need a Savior, but I am trying to obey the Lord. How do I keep myself in check and really rest in the grace of God and not get my head puffed up when I think I'm doing pretty well before God. How do you deal with the individual having the recognition and realization they by David were not perfect coming there almost thinks we may times with all the work we have to trust in God's grace to look this up again and set us on the on the right path. We we can all find ourselves there. It's easy to find ourselves in a place that were we just don't we just don't recognize the grace of God at work in our lives. I agree that is a big problem and this is a good reminder for us to keep our eyes on the grace of God. What he did for us, not how well were doing in our own lives. While it's called the seven deadly virtues temptations in our pursuit of goodness and pastor Todd outcome was with us and it was so nice to have you here Todd, thank you very much think you need Seo is a pleasure having you got bless you and thank you for joining us today will see next time. Got bless you

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