The Narrow Path 11/12

Music playing... Good afternoon and welcome to The Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we're live for an hour each weekday afternoon taking your calls. If you have questions about the Bible or the Christian faith, you can call me here on the air during this hour. If you have a difference of opinion, you may call me about that as well. The number to call is 844-484-5737. That number again is 844-484-5737. Our first caller today is calling from London, England and that's Peter. Peter, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.

Hi Steve. I just wanted your opinion on something. So the church I attend, they have pastors who are paid by the church and I don't know if you have this in the US, but in the UK the government instituted a furlough scheme, which means companies, because of the pandemic or during the lockdown, companies would put some of their staff on temporary leave and pay them 8% of their wages. And one of the pastors in my church that I serve with, he announced that the church board have told him that he's going on furlough, so he's going on leave for a while. And he then mentioned, he stated that because of that, all these ministerial duties are on hold. And when he said that, I was actually disappointed to hear it. Because the reason being is I just don't see ministry of any kind as a job, even though you may actually be paid by the church to do some ministerial work.

And yeah, it was just very surprising to hear that. And I just wanted your opinion, because my opinion on it is that whatever ministry God has called you to do, whether you're paid by the church or not, you don't go on leave or have holidays or retire. I just don't understand when ministers say those kind of things.

Okay, I'd be curious. I need to have a little more clarity on this. The church is still meeting, right? They're still congregating, but he's not going to be ministering for a while?

Yes. Okay, so what is the purpose that was given for his going on furlough? So the church, I'm assuming the church can't pay all the staff that they have. So if you let go, if you put some of your staff on furlough, the government then comes in and pays for those staff. So I think it's because the church can't pay for all the staff that they have on. So they lay some off for a while, yeah. Yeah, I'm afraid I just have such a different mentality about all that stuff.

It's hard for me to put myself in that position and to evaluate it as sympathetically from one on the inside. I mean, I can see that a pastor who may have worked and worked and worked and worked and maybe getting tired and has not spent enough time with his family and has other ministers who can step in for him, that he might ask for some time off just to recuperate and spend time with his family and do important things like that. I mean, there's such a thing as taking a sabbatical. I mean, certainly college professors do that and other people sometimes they work several years and then they take a little time off to relax and become productive in another way.

But it sounds like that may not be what's going on here. I personally cannot relate with the idea of salaried ministry. I've been in the ministry for 50 years full-time, well, full-time for 38 years. I've been in ministry part-time for first 12 years and then 38 years full-time and I've never even dreamed of taking a salary.

Why would I do that? I'm not working for men, I'm working for God. But see, that's such a different mindset. The idea that you're working for people or you're working for an organization or an organized church and that you're an employee and they pay you, it's just a very different thing than anything I've ever had a concept that I can relate with. I don't think Jesus charged for his ministry. I don't think the apostles charged. They lived off the ministry in many cases, but not because they charged for it, but because people contributed to them. And the Bible does tell people to contribute to their ministers and support them, but it doesn't ever permit the minister to ask people to give them money. Jesus said to the disciples, when he sent them out, you have freely received, freely give. Now freely gives means you don't charge. If you're charging, that's not freely giving. And so, I mean, I've been in full-time ministry for 38 of the last 50 years of my ministry and I've never charged, but God provides.

He provides through people who apparently feel led to give. Most ministers, I guess, have never really, never occurred to them that doing things the way Jesus did and the apostles did is somehow a better way than the way of professional ministry. I certainly, if I had to take time off ministry, I would not be asking the government to pay my bills for me. The government is not Christian. It's not the church.

I mean, not that I'm going to criticize someone who does that. I'm just thinking, since I'm a person in full-time ministry and you're asking about some policies of some people who are in full-time ministry, I see ministry very differently. I don't see ministry as a job. I see ministry as slavery, a happy slavery. You know, Christ is my Lord. I'm his slave. I'm happy to be his slave. I chose that. And I'm glad to have chosen.

I have no regrets. But a slave doesn't make demands for money or anything like that. Now, I have a feeling that what's going on there is just something that's going, it just seems right to them because they've never thought through those issues.

But if they did think through those issues, they might not see it the way I do. I personally think if a church is low on money, the first thing that can go is salaries. I don't see anywhere in the New Testament that anyone was paid a salary in the church. As I said, being supported by the freewill offerings of people is different than a salary. Some people don't see the difference because the pastor's salary comes through the offerings that the people give, but it's not the same thing.

The people give their offerings presumably to God. The church becomes sort of a launderer of the money and they give the staff a certain prearranged amount. And to my mind, a pastor would do just as well without receiving that salary if the people just gave directly to him. Because that's what the Bible says, those who are taught in the word should share in all good things with him who teaches. That would suggest the person who's being taught actually gives something to the person who's teaching, not to a corporation that then filters it all down and gives some of it to the minister and some of it to the mortgage on the building or something else. So I'm afraid I can't answer you without seeming overly critical of the whole system of professional ministry. My beliefs on this are very strong and they've been the same for 50 years of my being in the ministry. But despite the fact that my views are strong on this, it does not mean I'm judgmental of people who do it differently because I believe there's a lot of blind spots that people have. And I'm sure I have mine. We all have blind spots. I believe that for the average professional clergyman, one of the blind spots is it never occurred to him that he's a contract laborer for a corporation rather than a servant freely giving his service to the people of God as a servant of God and trusting God to remunerate him, which is, again, what many, many people have done.

I have done. And it's what Jesus did. I mean, unless we want to suggest that Jesus somehow had a contract with somebody that he'd do so much healing, so much preaching, and then they'd pay him so much at the end of the week.

That'd be an abomination, I think, to him. Like Peter who said to Simon, you know, your money perish with you because you thought the ministry or the gift of God could be purchased with money. The ministry is not to be purchased with money, although those who are ministered to are exhorted to help out financially those who minister to them. So, you know, it's a different policy. But see, what they're doing right now with this guy taking a furlough and the government paying 80 percent of his salary or whatever, I'm not in favor of that. But I'd have to go back further and say I'm probably not in favor with the way the whole church is organized there.

So I guess we have to decide what's a hill to die on? What is, you know, what is morally repugnant? And I'm not going to say that what they're doing is morally repugnant. It may be, but so many Christians are doing it in the sense of, you know, they're selling their services in ministry rather than giving them away freely, as Jesus said to do. But I think it's a blind spot. And I think that where there are blind spots, I think God will probably have some compassion.

And I think I should, too. Yeah, I agree, Steve. I think most ministers just don't do any better.

They just do it just ignorantly. Last quick question for me. How do I know if I'm being legalistic or disciplined? So give it some context. I want to improve my prayer life. And I'm finding that I just know I desire to pray long hours. And, you know, like Jesus or men, really great men of God that did great things. And I've had to sort of allot time to it. And I don't know if I'm being legalistic or it's spiritual discipline.

I just need to discipline myself if that makes sense. Well, when I was a young man, I would read the biographies of Wesley, of, you know, some of these great men, Luther even, and Jonathan Edwards and different people who prayed many hours a day, E.M. Bounds. And I mean, some of these guys prayed six hours a day. E.M. Bounds, I think, prayed six hours a day. I'm pretty sure Wesley said that he prayed four hours every morning before he did anything else. I think Luther said he had to pray two hours at the beginning of his day because if he didn't, he had so much to do, he wouldn't be able to get it done.

He felt like he says, I have so much to do. I can't I can't hope to do it without spending two hours a day in prayer. Now, I never, as a regular habit, prayed four hours a day or even two hours a day. In fact, I'd have to say that I've never gone many weeks where I'd prayed an hour a day.

Not that I didn't want to, but I found it very difficult. I mean, I have times in prayer that are a great blessing and sometimes they feel like they could go on forever and ever if I didn't have anything else to do. But most of the time my prayer life isn't like that and it frustrated me.

I'd read about, you know, Reese Howells or just about Mueller or others who prayed these long times of prayer. And I'd feel guilty because I didn't seem to be able to do that. I thought maybe I'm not as spiritual as they are. And probably I'm not.

Frankly, probably I'm not. But the truth is that I came to reevaluate that over time and I would still very much love to spend four hours a day in prayer. But what I find is in many cases I have a hard time praying for more than a half hour without running out of things that I know of to pray for. You know, I'm not saying there aren't plenty of things to pray for, but they're not all on my mind.

And that's, I think that's the problem. And so when you can't think of the next thing that you, that you should pray for, then you start thinking about other things. Your mind starts to wander and then you realize, oops, I'm supposed to be praying here.

And I've been thinking about what I'm doing this afternoon. And I think this is a fairly common thing for most people who, who pray. Now, is this sinful? Well, the Bible does say that Jesus would go out a long time before day and pray. And you know, the implication may be that he did so for hours. We don't, we're not really told whether to pray for hours or not, but he may have. And as I said, lots of great Christians have done that. But I think most Christians would find that difficult, even if they had all the time in the world and even wanted to do it.

And I know I wanted to. Most of my life, I've wanted to spend two or four hours a day in prayer. I've just not really found that to be possible. And the Bible says we need to pray in the Spirit. And I think that means that the Holy Spirit is supposed to be leading our prayers. And I do pray to be led by the Spirit, but if he doesn't lead me to pray, let's just say to spend some time in prayer for more than 20 minutes or a half hour on a given occasion, instead of afflicting my soul over it because I'm not measuring up to what some men have done, I just want to live in liberty and say, okay, I will pray all day long. That doesn't mean I'm literally praying every moment, but it means that many times during the day, as things come to my mind, I pray for them. The Bible doesn't anywhere say you have to spend a prolonged protracted period on your knees in prayer.

It's a wonderful thing to do, I'm sure. But let's face it, a lot of people, apparently the Holy Spirit doesn't lead them to pray in that way, but you can spread your prayers out through a whole day. And you remember when Jesus taught his disciples to pray, he said, don't be like the heathen who think that they'll be heard because they give long prayers or they use many words. He said, when you pray, pray like this. And then he recites a prayer that you could pray in 15 seconds or faster if you're a Roman Catholic and the priest tells you to do it 20 times, then you can do it a lot faster. But the thing is that the prayer that Jesus taught, he said, when you pray, pray like this, it's of utmost brevity and it covers pretty much all the bases.

I think the danger of that, of the Lord's Prayer is not that it's too short, but that it can go by quickly enough that we don't think much about the lines. And I think that when we say your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven, there's a lot of things that hang under that category. And I think we should pray for as many of them as we feel the Lord's laying on our hearts. But I do think it would be legalistic to put a requirement on yourself to do something that many great men of God have done, but the Bible doesn't command to be done. Let's face it, many men of God have sold everything they had and got on the mission field, but not every Christian's commanded to do that. And the Bible doesn't command us to do that.

So, I mean, there are different callings, there are different ways that God uses people. And there's some people who just have a very, very powerful prayer life, one that I envy, but that I have to admit I've not had. So my prayer life, I pray for whatever time I feel the Holy Spirit allows me to in the mornings. And then during the day, as things come to mind, I pray for them too. So I think if you can't pray for two hours or four hours, just yield yourself up to God all day long and offer up prayers as they come to mind.

There's nothing about that that is as impressive as being able to say, I prayed four hours this morning and every morning, but it may very well, it's every bit as scriptural. And I think the thing that made me bothered by the fact that I couldn't do this four hour prayer thing that Wesley did was I thought, oh, that means I'm not as good as Wesley. Well, it's not my obligation to be as good as Wesley. I love Wesley. I admire Wesley. He's a much better man than I am. But my goal is not to be like Wesley.

My goal is to be obedient to God and follow Jesus Christ and be like him. And that being so, it may be that God led Wesley and Luther and these other great prayers to do what they did. And I know that I've tried to do it, but apparently I wasn't being led by the Spirit because it didn't work out for me. And honestly, I mean, I would not complain if somebody wanted to say to me, well, Steve, your problem is you're just not spiritual enough.

Well, I'm not going to disagree with that. I don't think I am spiritual enough, but I'm not really sure that that's why I can't pray for four hours very often. I think it may be that that's something some people are called to do and others are called to have something more of a prayer life that fits into their regular lives in a different way. So don't judge yourself by the greatest examples of prayer out there. Do let them, let their example challenge you.

Let their example set high goals for yourself, but don't apply them legalistically because the Bible doesn't tell you you have to pray for hours at a time, ever. No, that's very helpful, Steve. Yeah, I'll do that. Yeah, I've taken up a lot of time, but yeah, appreciate you giving me time to answer my questions. All right, Peter. Thanks for calling, brother.

God bless you too. Our next caller is Al from Berkeley, California, much closer to home than England. Hello, Al. Welcome. Hey, Steve. How are you doing? Good, thanks.

How's your show? Good. I just want to say, I wonder sometimes if I'm really even a Christian, when I first got converted, I mean, I really had a born again experience.

I laid down all my drugs and most of my bad habits literally in one day. But as time has gone on, my belief systems have changed a little bit in what I believe about the faith. I believe Jesus Christ is the only way to God, that he's the Son of God. But because of my life experiences in the past and what I have been exposed to, I grew up doing a lot of martial arts and grew up around a lot of Eastern-type traditions and belief systems. And I still tend to hold on to some of those belief systems because I find them to be very practical. And so when I say I don't know if I'm a Christian, it's because I don't believe a lot of the cookie cutter things that they believe in the churches. And so oftentimes people will say, well, you know, tell me, well, you're not really saved because you believe this, or, you know, you have a demon of this in you because you believe this and you're being a lot of stress. Well, let me ask you a question here, just so we can save some time.

I want to ask you a thing. Give me an example of some of the things, the cookie cutter church beliefs that you don't hold to and a few examples of the things you're considered to be from Eastern philosophy that you do hold to. What are some of the church views that you have trouble with? Well, for example, reincarnation. I don't fully believe it, but I don't fully disbelieve it. I mean, we live in a world that is so unknown. I just say, well, I don't know. There's a lot of things that I just say I don't know to the church belief system about, say, reincarnation. The other things may be my views about hell and that, you know, everyone that isn't lucky enough to hear out of my words about Jesus Christ is going to hell because they're rotten evil people and they need Jesus. And I'm fine because I was lucky enough to hear it, but because they didn't hear it, they're going to hell. It's not so much, I believe in universal salvation, but again, I can't discount it either because there's 7.2 billion people in this world, maybe give or take, and they all have different beliefs from their living situations. Yeah. Let me jump in here.

Let me, let me jump in here, Al. First of all, you do believe in Christ and it sounds like you consider yourself a follower of Christ and that's what makes a person a Christian. Having one view or another about hell does not determine whether one's a Christian or not. There certainly are wrong ways to think about hell and right ways to think about it, no doubt.

But, but what you think about hell doesn't determine whether you're a Christian or not. Now, when it comes to reincarnation, I'm curious, is it, you say there's so much out there that we don't know, maybe, you know, could be true. Are you of the opinion that the Bible doesn't address the subject at all or doesn't give us any guidance on the matter of whether there's reincarnation or not? Well, for example, like the story of Nicodemus, I know for, when I read that story, to me, it seems like parts of the conversation was cut off. So Nicodemus says one thing and then Jesus seems to skip over, it seems to be something that is being skipped over. I have to agree with you, I have to agree with you that many conversations are not given in their entirety in the Bible, but the question is, do you believe that the Bible actually has no guidance for us on the subject of whether there's reincarnation or not?

That's, I mean, a yes or no would be fine. I mean, do you believe there is? I don't think it, I don't think it, well, I think what you're going to say is Paul said man is appointed to live once and he dies and it's judgment. So yeah, I guess there is something that speaks about that. See, even more than that, even more than that, the Bible teaches the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead, which is different than the doctrine of reincarnation. In fact, they can't both be true because Jesus said the hour is coming when all who are in the grave, so it's all the dead bodies, will come forth and some will go to a resurrection of life and some to the resurrection of condemnation. Now, if reincarnation is true, then you and I have not only lived in the body we're in now, we've lived in thousands of bodies previously throughout history and maybe thousands more before it's all over.

So the one person named Al and the one person named Steve will have actually inhabited thousands of bodies. But when all the bodies come out of the graves, which one will I get to live in? You know, I mean, Jesus said all the, all the graves are gonna be open, all the bodies that come out and, and some will be resurrected to life and some to condemnation. The soul that's reincarnated, it's not the body, the soul has to come back. But if it is reincarnated, let me, let me jump in here. If the soul is reincarnated, it's in a new body. That's what incarnate mean.

Carnate comes from the word flesh. So you're, you're in one fleshly body now. If you're reincarnated, you'll be in another fleshly body. And then the next time around, you'll be in another flesh. So there'll be a whole bunch of bodies that you were in. And yeah, your soul goes from body to body, but your bodies will be multiple. And when the bodies come out of the grave and the resurrection, that's the question of which one will your soul live in?

Now you can't really, then what happens to the other? Okay. So in all the, let's say the thousand bodies, they return to dust. No, no, no. Wait.

Okay. So, so you're saying you believe that all the bodies will rise, but you'll only be returning to the last one. And all the previous ones you're in are going to, after they rose, they're going to return to dust. Well, why raise them if they're just, if they're not going to be alive, why do you raise up a body that's not going to be alive? I honestly feel that the Bible teaches an entirely different worldview than that of reincarnation. Now, the fact that you are having struggles with that particular view doesn't tell me that you are or not a Christian. Although if you knew what Jesus taught contrary and you still rejected what he said, that would suggest you're not a Christian. But it sounds to me like you're not real clear on what the Bible teaches on it. And a person could be unclear about something and be wrong about it and not be a, a rejecter of Christ just because through, you know, whatever their ignorance of the matter is. But, but I mean, it is a separate subject, but I would say that I think the Bible teaches very clearly against reincarnation. And yet if you don't know that, if you don't think that and you still think Jesus might've taught reincarnation, you could be mistaken, but you can still be a follower of Jesus. But a follower of Jesus wants to change his mind to agree with God. So if you're a true follower of Jesus, you want to be transformed by the renewing of your mind. And that involves adopting Christ's viewpoint on things.

So I would say the real question of whether you're a Christian is not whether all the beliefs you have measure up with the best of Christian beliefs, but whether you're following Jesus Christ and seeking to have him teach you and correct you where necessary. I'm out of time for this call. I'm sorry to say, but I'm glad you called. We're taking a break. We'll be back in a half, half a minute for another half hour.

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Share and do good. Welcome back to The Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we're live for another half hour. We're taking calls as usual. If you have questions about the Bible or about Christianity or if you have a different view from the host, feel free to give me a call. The number is 844-484-5737.

That's 844-484-5737. Our next caller is Timothy calling from Ontario, Virginia. Timothy, welcome. Good to hear from you. Hey Steve, thanks for taking my call. I read your book Empire of the Risen Son.

I love it. My question is on chapter 20 where on page 378 you say, though the Bible of nowhere says that believers are called to go to heaven, it does state that we are called to go to the kingdom and to glory. I don't have a problem with that statement at all. My, I guess what I'm trying to have you help me process is, you know, for years I've been taught that when we die, we go to heaven. And even Paul says that to be absent from the body is present with the Lord. If I die tonight, where do I go? I'm in the presence of the Lord, but I'm in heaven. I'm in another spot.

Where, where am I? I believe you go to heaven. I believe that we go to heaven when we die, but that's not where we're called to. That's where we will be remaining until Jesus comes to earth and brings us back with him and sets up, you know, the, the new order of the new heavens and the new earth. Our, our eternal calling, our eternal home is not heaven. No place in the Bible ever suggests that it is, but it actually teaches that we will be with the Lord if we die. Uh, and when the Lord comes, he'll bring with him those who have died in Christ. The Bible says, so when he that's in first Thessalonians, uh, four, 14, I believe it is that he'll bring with him those who've died. Uh, and of course you can raise their bodies and we'll live with him on the new earth that Jesus is going to rain on the earth.

The Bible says, and the Bible says we're going to rain on the earth multiple times. So our calling is not to heaven. That doesn't mean we won't go there. That's like me saying, you know, if I'm on a trip to visit my parents in orange County, I'm passing through your town through Corona, uh, or no, you're in Ontario, excuse me. Uh, if I'm passing through Ontario on my way to Las Vegas or something like that, uh, I can say I'm not really going to Ontario.

I'm going to Las Vegas, but I might pass through Ontario on the way there. That's not, that's my, not my destination. That's not where I'm called to go.

Correct. And so I'm called to reign with Christ eventually in the new earth. That doesn't mean I won't pass through heaven on my way there. If I die, there's nowhere for me to go except heaven. But when Jesus comes back, I'll be coming with him. I'm not going to stay here. I'm not going to stay away from him.

You know, he's going to go ahead. Heaven is not the final state. It's just the place in between the final state, right?

It's not even the final home of Jesus. He's only there until he returns. Yeah. When, when does your second book come out, Steve? December 9th.

So it's less than a month away. Awesome. Well, I really enjoyed it. I, it took me a week to read it and I'm going to keep reading it and I love it and I thank you and appreciate you for it. Well, it's good to hear from you Timothy. I'm glad you got the book and I'm glad you enjoyed it. By the way, I know you had been impressed with this series, the lecture series on the kingdom of God. Do you feel like the book measured up to the lecture series or not? I don't really know.

I honestly don't know. Steve, I've listened to your series, that eight part series continuously for almost two years now because I want to know it like the back of my hand. This is that and more. And if I could say one more thing, if you could put in book writing, you're teaching on beholding the glory, that is so amazing and so important. This topic on the kingdom of God and beholding the glory, I feel are the most important missed topics in Christianity. All right, well, I'll definitely keep that in mind. Of course, I do cover that somewhat in chapter 20 of that book. You, you briefly do and I was like, yeah, I love it, but I really feel there needs to be a separate book because there's so much there.

All right. It's so good, Steve. I love that teaching and it frustrates me because it gets cut off at the end.

At the end of the, it's like an hour and something and you're like, get your, you're going to go somewhere and then all of a sudden it cuts off. Oh, on the lectures. Oh, I didn't realize that. Yeah. Those old lectures, sometimes they're on cassette tape and the tape ended before I stopped.

Yeah. I'm so thankful. You don't know how much your ministry has greatly impact my life and others that I've been able to teach, including the church I'm at now about your, your kingdom series.

It is so amazing. Well, I'm so glad God bless you, Timothy. I appreciate your call very much. All right. Thanks, Steve. God bless. All right.

Bye now. By the way, the second book is another 20 chapters continuing on the subject of the kingdom of God. Both books are under the same title, empire of the risen son S O N. And the first book is called, there is another King. The second book is called all the Kings men. The first book is about the kingdom of God per se describing what the Bible teaches about the kingdom of God. And the second book is about discipleship or living in the kingdom of God. And, uh, actually I, I, I'm not sure which book I like better, but, uh, I, I'm pretty, pretty pleased with both books. I have to say, and that's not always necessarily the case with everything I do.

I don't necessarily like everything I do after it's been done, but I, I, I feel, I feel pretty good about these. So they're both available at Amazon. Uh, if you look up my name, Steve, Greg on Amazon, you'll see all my books there, including the one that hasn't come out yet.

You can preorder it. I did receive a shipment of a few copies of it from the publisher, uh, pre pre-publication copies. So I know it's out there and I've, I'm reading it again just to make sure I can find all the typos. There's a lot of typos in my work.

Uh, but we try to get them all out. If you, by the way, if you're reading one or both of my books and you find typos, please let me know because I can change those. I can put out new additions that don't have them. They just slipped by me many times and I'm, I'm very poor at proofreading. So if you find typos, feel free to eat. Someone already did email me a couple and you do me a great favor if you do that.

So please do. All right, let's talk to a Todd from post falls Idaho. Todd, welcome to the narrow path. Thanks for calling.

Hello. Who is the prophet with the Elijah spirit, the spirit of Elijah that Jesus promised us in Matthew 1711? Well, um, he's talking about John the Baptist there. I mean, I think the passage actually tells us so. Well, uh, he's talking about John the Baptist in 12 Matthew 1712, but 11th a totally different subject matter where I was changed his subject. He says, but I say unto you that one, the Elijah has come already. So then he's, yeah, he's talking about John the Baptist, but 11 is a totally different. Well, Jesus gives, Jesus gives the whole pronouncement about Elijah when the disciples say, why do the scribes say Elijah must come first?

So Jesus answers them. And in verse 13 it says, then the disciples understood that he spoke to them of John the Baptist. So the whole saying of Jesus according to verse 13 is about John the Baptist.

Uh, so what it says, here's what they said. Uh, the disciples asked him verse 10 saying, why, why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first? Now, of course we know the answer to that because Malachi chapter four said Elijah would come first. And Jesus says, uh, he answered, Elijah truly is coming first and we'll restore all things.

Now in my opinion, and I think we're seeing this differently from each other. Probably you're seeing that as Jesus has predicted it. I think Jesus is paraphrasing Malachi four. That is, I think he's stating the reason, the reason that the scribes expect, uh, Elijah is because it was, it was predicted in Malachi and I believe that he's paraphrasing Malachi's words.

So, I mean, one doesn't have to see it that way, but that's the way I think it flows. And then it says now after he's basically paraphrased what Malachi said, he gives his explanation. But I say to you, Elijah has come already and they did not know him, but they did to him whatever they wished. Likewise, the son of man is about to suffer at his hands. Then the disciples understood that he spoke to them of John the Baptist. Now, this is not the first time Jesus spoke about this because he said this in Malachi, in Matthew 11, verse 12 and following it says from the, Jesus said from the days of John the Baptist till now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence and the violent take it by force for all the prophets and the law prophesied until John, he means John the Baptist. He said, if you're willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come.

Okay. So if Jesus said that Elijah is to come, he said, if you can receive it, John is Elijah that is to come. Now, when he said, if you will receive it, I think he wanted them to.

I don't think he's saying he isn't, but you might want to receive it that way. I think he wants them to recognize that he's saying John is Elijah who is to come. So I think that these references to Elijah are references to John the Baptist, but I see the problem you're having in verse 11 of chapter 17 because he says, Elijah surely is coming first as if Jesus is predicting it and yet John was dead at that time.

So there'd have to be another one besides John, but I don't think that's what's happening here. I think he's, I think he's referring to Elijah who is to come or is coming is, is really the wording. It's the wording of a Malachi that he's quoting. I think he's pointing out to them that Malachi said it and that's why the scribes believe it. Well, I would I, the Bible tells me that Malachi is a, uh, there's referring to two Elijah spirit prophets. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day.

Well, the great and deadful day wasn't when Jesus came. That's the tribulation and he shall turn the hearts of the fathers to the children. The fathers are the fathers of the Jewish church, the Pharisees and all that to the children of the new church, Paul and all the apostles.

And then the heart of the children to their fathers. Now you're getting to this Elijah that Jesus talks about in 1711 and the children to their fathers. That's you and me and everybody in 9,000 different denominations back to the original gospel, one that we're talking about right now. So you said Malachi tells you that I've read the passage in Malachi and he doesn't tell me that. So that's, I mean, I guess you and I are just getting different things from the same passage. Uh, and by the way, I will say this, there was a time when I was taught that the great and dreadful day of the Lord was in fact the future tribulation and that the Elijah, uh, that Malachi speaks of is going to come during the tribulation and be one of the two witnesses. I suppose that might be your position too.

If it's not, it's closer to your position than that, which I hold now. Um, I believe the great and dreadful day of the Lord was that great and terrible judgment that came on Jerusalem in AD 70 and Malachi says before God comes and strikes the land with a curse, that is the land of Israel with a curse, he's going to send Elijah to try to turn them back around the right way. And Jesus, John is that one who came to turn them back the right way. And of course then Jesus came and then came the great and dreadful day of the Lord, which was also spoken of in Joel chapter two where Joel said, you know, that God's gonna pour out his spirit on all flesh and your sons and daughters will prophesy. Then he said, there'll be, you know, blood and a fire and pillars of smoke and a sun shall be turned to a blood darkness and the moon to blood before the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

Well, Peter said that that particular prophecy was in the process of fulfillment at the day of Pentecost, the spirit was being poured out and no doubt this was a preparatory as it says in Joel to the great and dreadful day of the Lord, which happened in AD 70 in that same generation. So, I mean, that's how I see it. You see it differently and that's of course inevitable. People are going to see things differently.

They can't all be right, but we can see things differently. Thanks for your call. Okay, let's see. Paul from Calvary Oaks, California. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling. Hello? Oh, he's gone. Must have had a bad connection.

It's a shame. He waited a while to get on. Call back and we'll be glad to talk to you. Jerry from Sacramento, California. How many calls from California today?

Jerry, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling. Thank you. My question is, when a Christian dies, I know that they go to paradise, correct?

Well, I believe that since Christ rose from the dead, when we die, we go to heaven. Okay. All right. Well, tell me, if a person... My husband just died in April.

I guess this is why I'm more... I just want to know... He loved the Lord, so I know he's with Jesus. Okay. Is his body... Well, see, he gave his body for research. Okay.

Okay, so then they took care of it. So, does he have his body up there? Is he able to talk and see other people? No, nobody has their body up there except that Jesus has his resurrected body, but he resurrected here on earth before he went to heaven. We're going to resurrect on earth also.

That hasn't happened yet. But when we die, we leave our body. Right. That's why Paul says we're absent from the body. That means we're not with it. It's somewhere else. Okay, so then in other words, our spirit is up there?

Right. Well, you know, that makes sense now. If it says we're absent from the body, that makes more sense. I've never thought about...

I guess I've heard that. But I know he's with the Lord. Yes, we know that our dead loved ones, they don't have their bodies up in heaven because you could open their grave and find their body still there. Their body's not in heaven.

Their body's on the earth. Yeah. You know what? Why didn't I ever think of it that way? Maybe I just haven't been listening to the program long enough because it comes up quite a bit. You know, I just thank you so much because I've been talking... I even asked my pastor. And he was kind of shocked that I asked him that. And he said, well, I picture it as them being up there.

Okay. And that's the way I grew up thinking that way. But what you say makes more sense. It seems strange when a pastor has asked that question for him to say, well, I picture it this way, rather than quoting what the scripture says about it. He didn't say for, you know, for positive. He says that's just, and that's the way I always thought that my husband's up there with all the others that, and they're all up there talking.

Yeah. I don't know what they're talking about or if they're talking, but I know they're all, I know that those who have died in the Lord are with the Lord. Jesus said, Jesus said in John chapter five and verse 24, whoever hears my words and believes in him that sent me has everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation because he has passed from death unto life. So if you're a believer in Christ, you have passed from death unto life and you have everlasting life. And it doesn't, he doesn't say you will later.

He doesn't say you will. When the resurrection happens, you have it now. And that it just leaves your body and goes to be with God until the resurrection. Now, when Jesus comes back, the Bible says, Bible says he's going to bring with him those who've died in Christ and he's going to raise their bodies. So we're going to live on the new earth with Christ. So what if their body is cremated?

Well, he's going to have to raise it from that. You know, I mean, think about it this way. What if it's not cremated? What if somebody is died 500 years ago and they were not cremated?

What condition is their body in? Okay. I get it. No better than cremated, right? No better than if it was cremated. Well, I just want to thank you. And I just want to give you one thing because I just think it's so neat what God did in the way that he did that with my husband. He wasn't able to talk when he, when he was dying or anything, you know, his couldn't walk, but he called me on the phone from a care, one of those hospice places at 1215 in the morning.

Okay. And he did, when I picked up the phone, he hadn't been able to pick up a phone or dial or anything. And he wasn't talking.

He didn't ask for me. He said, Jesus, I'm ready to go if it's okay with you, but if it's not, it's okay. He said, there's so many that don't know you and the resurrection, and you're coming back. And he said that they need to know you and ask forgiveness of their sins and accept you.

The rapture is coming soon. And he hung up. Well, that's a very remarkable story. Thank you for sharing that. I just wanted, because you know what?

Jen, I'll tell you what, I've got some calls waiting and I only have about five minutes. Okay. But I thank you for answering my question because that's great. Thank you.

I like your program. Thank you. Thanks for your call. Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye now.

Okay. Our next caller is Le from Santa Ana. Hi, Le. Welcome.

Hi, Le. Steve, thank you. I need to know, because I'm having a discussion with a non-Christian, where in the Bible does it say that the embryo is living and that it would be murder to have an abortion? Well, the Bible doesn't say that the embryo is specifically living at any given point. Although we do know that when John the Baptist had been in the womb for less than six months, he leaped in his mother's womb for joy. So he had to be alive.

You know, it says it was predicted about John the Baptist. He will be filled with the spirit from his mother's womb. And when Mary greeted Elizabeth, John leapt for joy in the womb. So, uh, now he was not, you know, in the first trimester necessarily, but he, I don't know if a child in the first trimester is big enough to do any leaping or not, but, but he certainly had to be alive. If he's leaping for joy, he was alive.

So there's no question there. But even if we had no scripture that mentioned that the, uh, that the, you know, the fetus was a human being, we know that it's alive, that it's growing. Things don't grow if they're not alive and we know it's human.

How do we know that? Because what other species is it? It's not a dog or a cat or ape. It's got human DNA, which only humans have. So it's obviously a human.

It's a human, a growing human being. And if something is human and growing, it's a living person. Now, some people have said, no, it's not a living person until it takes its first breath. Well, the Bible doesn't necessarily say that, but what the Bible does say is the life of the flesh is in the blood. And certainly an embryo, a very, a human embryo, a very early stage has blood.

It's got a beating heart and a, and circulatory system. There's blood in it long before is born long before it's a fully developed, uh, shaped baby. But, uh, you know, just because it looks different doesn't mean it's not a person. I mean, when a baby is born, we know that's a person and it looks a lot different than it'll look when it's 95 years old. But the way that it doesn't look the same doesn't change what it is by nature. Uh, a baby that's made up of a thousand cells at an early stage, uh, after conception is still the same being that it will be when it's billions of cells as a, as an adult human being.

Uh, it's, it's the same person. It's very different in shape and size and so forth, but we don't determine whether something's human by its shape or its size. I mean, when you think about Elephant Man, if you ever saw that story of Elephant Man, his, he didn't look human at all, but he was. He had a human soul. He had a human mind. He had, you know, he was a human being.

He looked like a monstrosity, like an animal or something. But you know, we don't judge humanity by what someone looks like, but by whether they have human life in them. Now, if a fetus doesn't have human life, it stops growing. Sometimes a fetus will die in the womb and that's what they say.

They call it. They say it died in the womb. Well, if it died, then it must have been alive because nothing can die unless it's first alive. A fetus grows, but if it dies, it stops growing.

Why? Because only living things grow and therefore if you've got a fetus growing in the womb, you've got a human being in there. Is there any chance that a baby that, or a fetus that dies, is there any chance that the soul will go into another baby and be able to live or is that going until once to die type thing? Well, you know, that's delving into mysteries that we have no knowledge of. In my opinion, if a baby dies, it goes to heaven. If it has never really had a chance to be alive on earth, let's just say, living in the land of the living out here, I don't know what God may do.

No, I think it goes to heaven and that's all we can really say about it. Oh, okay. Well, thank you very much.

It gives me some arguments to tell people. All right. I appreciate your call, Leigh. Thank you for calling. Alan from San Diego, we only got a few minutes left.

Welcome. Yeah, hi Steve. I just have a question. I'm of the opinion that Ezekiel 38 and 39, the battle mentioned there, the ancient battle mentioned there, is related to the attack of Haman on the Jews. That's very possible. Very possible, yes.

But I've run into a little bit of a snag. I don't know, I may have heard of an explanation before, but I just ran into it again as I was studying it again. And it's that in the first chapter, so it talks about the Jews being spread out throughout the land of Persia.

And then in Ezekiel 38, I think it's in the first chapter, or in 38, not in 39, it says that there are people dwelling in the land without walls. And I'm having trouble harmonizing that. So I'll just get your answer over the air. Okay. I'll hang up. All right.

Thank you. There's two very good explanations for this passage. One is that it's Haman in the time of Esther. The other is that it's Antiochus Epiphanes in the second century BC.

Both would fit the general timeframe. The general timeframe is after the exile of the Jews from Babylon, and they've gone back to their land. Of course, the problem with this identifying Haman as the problem is that Haman was in Persia and it would seem that only the Jews that were still in Persia who had not gone back to Israel were possibly in danger. But I think that the decree of Haman applied to the whole Persian empire. That would include Israel because Israel was under the Persian rule and therefore the Jews in Persia and in Israel and in every other place would be under attack. Although it's clear that Ezekiel 38 seems to focus on Jerusalem itself, Jerusalem's citizenship are not all in Jerusalem. The way the Bible uses the word Jerusalem or Israel, it can speak of a geographical place. It can also speak of the people or the populace of that nation. If some of them are in Jerusalem and some of them are in Persia and other places, then I think it could still speak of them all in terms of being the Jews, the Jews who have Jerusalem as their capital and so forth.

I don't know. I have certainly considered Haman as a possibility there. I might lean a little more toward Antiochus Epiphanes as I think Adam Clark does and some others. Obviously some people think it's a future battle, but I don't see any reason to believe that in the passage. So the passage, the previous chapters talk about the Jews coming back to their land, which they did when the Persians came to power and allowed the Jews to return from Babylon to their land and rebuilt their temple. That's all predicted there in the previous chapters. And then chapter 38 just talks about an aggressive enemy, a pagan enemy that seeks to destroy them after they've returned. And again, Haman did and so did Antiochus Epiphanes and both of them failed. And that's what the prophecy talks about. There's a lot of symbolism in the description. Of course, it's written in a prophetic apocalyptic language and you can't take everything in it literally. Nobody does anyway. But yeah, I think I don't, I'm not, I wouldn't rule out Haman just because it talks about the people who are back in the land because many of the Jews were and they were endangered also by Haman's rule, but it may not be referring to Haman.

It might be referring to Antiochus. I'm out of time. You've been listening to The Narrow Path. We are listener supported. You can go to our website if you wish and find out how to donate to help us out to stay on the air. The website is thenarrowpath.com and let's talk again tomorrow. God bless you.