Interview with Tom Hobson Part 3

Viewpoint on Mormonism, the program that examines the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from a biblical perspective. Viewpoint on Mormonism is sponsored by Mormonism Research Ministry. Since 1979, Mormonism Research Ministry has been dedicated to equipping the body of Christ with answers regarding the Christian faith in a manner that expresses gentleness and respect. And now, your host for today's Viewpoint on Mormonism. Welcome to this edition of Viewpoint on Mormonism. I'm your host, Bill McKeever, founder and director of Mormonism Research Ministry, and with me today is Tom Hobson. Tom Hobson wrote the book The Historical Jesus and The Historical Joseph Smith, and we've been discussing what's in this book. Now, Tom is a former pastor, he's an educator, and has a burden for the LDS people for many, many decades. So, Tom, welcome back to the show.

Great to be here, Bill. Today, I'd like to look at what you have in chapter 5. Who can tell us the truth about Joseph? Now, in a previous show, we both seem to agree that going after the credibility and person of Joseph Smith is not usually the best idea in a witnessing situation when you're talking with a Mormon. However, I do think it's very important that we as Christians understand what kind of a character Joseph Smith in fact was, and relate that information to someone who may be considering joining the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, because Joseph Smith plays a very important role in the life of the Latter-day Saint, and of course, in the whole Mormon narrative when it comes to the subject of Mormonism.

But you have on page 29 in chapter 5, a subheading Tom, titled, Evaluating the Sources. Why don't you relate for our listeners how you decided what sources you would use? My strategy in the book is to try to narrow things down to facts that Temple LDS and I can both agree on. So I try to avoid what they might consider to be rumors or material from Joseph's enemies, and try to zero in on sources that Joseph himself or those most close to him and most favorable towards him. I do evaluate certain historical treatments of Joseph all the way from the LDS Church's historical department release in the fall of 2018, which I call Saints the Standard of Truth for short. Very pro-Joseph, more honest than previous pieces written by the Mormon Church, but still they're not putting all their cards on the table. But that's helpful if you can quote from there. Richard Bushman is the most even-handed fellow I can find that gives you all the stuff I would want to know about Joseph.

Strengthen the faith of some, it has caused others to lose their faith. At the other end of the spectrum, you have the works of Gerald and Sandra Tanner that are impeccable factually. They're definitely from a critical perspective, but like competent prosecutors, they make their case and make it thoroughly because they know where to find the evidence. In fact, I often go to the Tanners when I'm trying to figure out where was that quote from Brigham Young?

They've got it. But you have Bushman and Fawn Brody in the center. I'm a little wary of Fawn Brody because she tends to inject a lot of naturalistic assumptions into her attempt to describe Joseph and I kind of wonder whether she might do the same with Jesus. So any reader that wants to know the truth about Jesus and Joseph would utilize Brody's book with caution.

But Bushman I find very helpful as a starting place. But then there are going straight to the sources and I list them on page 30 of the book places, many of which are available online. Joseph's history of the church, his diary, early journals like the Millennial Star, Times and Seasons, Journal of Discourses. Even though I find the Nauvoo Expositor to be believable and definitely worth reading, the one edition that ever got published, I realized Mormons treat them to be enemies of the church, although they became enemies of the church because of some issues that the rest of us would find to be concerning as well. I think your sources are good. I like the way you evaluate them. When it comes to the LDS Church History Department and you mentioned the book Saints, The Standard of Truth, so far they've come out with two editions of that.

I expect two more from what I understand. But I found the first edition especially because one of the things that I would often deal with when it comes to the origins of Mormonism has to do with the plates, the gold plates and the Book of Mormon and such. And it has an excellent section in there on how Joseph Smith retrieved the gold plates. And I could just read that to a Latter-day Saint and there's no denying it.

It's coming from their own source. Though it is much more, I think, transparent is the word we like to use than in past editions, as you've noticed, it makes it very difficult for a Latter-day Saint to explain away how Joseph Smith supposedly retrieved these plates and eventually how he translates them. You mentioned Richard L. Bushman, a very good competent scholar, very good competent historian. I agree with you. Whenever I had someone ask me, what book can I give to my LDS loved one who's not quite ready to read something from, let's say, the tanners?

I would go to Richard L. Bushman's book, Rough Stone Rolling. The main reason why is because he's a member of the church. He's a faithful member.

And you're right. He brings out some things that probably raise quite a few eyebrows. Now, many Latter-day Saints believe that even though Joseph Smith was not perfect and none of us are claiming that he is or was, they still believe that he was a virtuous man. What's your opinion regarding the character of Joseph Smith?

I am convinced, and so I have to try and share this in as general a way as possible. I am convinced that Joseph was both a deceiver and a false teacher. And if it's true that God did not reveal plural marriage to Joseph, then he was also sexually immoral. But regardless on that third point, he was a deceiver in that he constantly deceived his wife and followers as the Saints, the Standard of Truth book concedes.

He constantly deceived them. Plus, he tried to deceive all of us when he claimed to translate, quote unquote, the Book of Abraham. And the fact that it was anything but a translation shows that if he'll deceive us about that, he is likely to have deceived us as well on his translation of the Bible, which I think I can prove. Plus, his claim to have translated the Book of Mormon.

We don't know whether those plates existed or not, but even if they did, how can we trust him to have translated them? So a deceiver, false teacher, particularly his teaching about the nature of God. A true prophet has to be, we got to be able to trust that they do not deceive us and that their teaching must be consistent with what God has already told us particularly about the nature of God.

I would totally agree with you on that. The Bible does give us quite a few of the attributes of God, even though we can't certainly understand God completely, nor do I think finite individuals would ever be able to understand the infinite God. There's enough in there that gives us an idea of who God is. And here comes Joseph Smith on the scene and completely contradicts a lot of those very clear teachings, which I think would, of course, disqualify him as being a true prophet of God. Have you used, for instance, like Deuteronomy chapter 13 as a text when talking to Latter-day Saints when it comes to Joseph Smith's title of being a true prophet? Well, I don't cite it.

Perhaps I do. Basically, I'm saying the prophet has to teach the truth about God, even if his prophecies come true. But he says, let us go after other gods. You shall not follow that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. I look at how Joseph also, his teaching changed in chapter 9.

So he goes all the way from what I call hyper-Trinitarian, more Trinitarian than the New Testament itself, to his bitheism, two gods of flesh and bone, and then goes on from that to what I call God's unlimited at the end. Then I ask, and many LDS have a hard time explaining, well, which one do we go with, the first one or the last one? Yeah, that becomes really problematic because Joseph Smith's theology certainly evolves through time. The Joseph Smith of 1844 is not really the Joseph Smith of 1830.

Or even Kirtland. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Now, on page 66 of your book, you talk about a church that vanished without a trace. In an earlier broadcast, we were talking about the great apostasy.

Tell us about this, a church that vanished without a trace. Why do you feel that this idea of a great apostasy certainly is not a good reason to believe that Joseph Smith was a true prophet? Well, we've already talked earlier about the issue of whether plain and precious items were taken out of the Bible that otherwise would approve the LDS account. But basically, the LDS claim that the church of the first century was led by a living prophet, that they had apostles that were meant to be an ongoing part of the top leadership, that they had a Melchizedek priesthood with thousands of priests, that a majority of male members ages 12 and up were elders and deacons, if the first century church was the same as the modern church. They also believe that the eternal marriages were sealed in their temples, and that LDS doctrine was taught in the first century church. I believe the whole list goes out the window when we look at the biblical evidence, which I discuss in chapter 10. Basically, to make this claim of theirs, you have to end up going back to their refuge for in plain and precious teachings getting taken out.

And again, where's the evidence for that? And I think that's one of the huge problems with the whole claim of the LDS church. If it isn't, in fact, a restoration, why is it we don't see in the New Testament a church that represents what the LDS church is today?

We just don't. I think you're spot on on that, Tom, and that becomes very problematic, because they're the ones that use the word restored all the time. Restored gospel, restored church, we're the only true church. Why are the only true church? Because we most closely represent the church that Christ built in his mortal ministry, but yet we can't find those unique aspects of the Mormon church in the New Testament.

They can easily say, well, those things were taken out, and my response would be, how convenient that all the things that make you unique are not found in the New Testament. And you go to the early second century, 100 A.D., the church you find being described by Ignatius doesn't look one thing like today's LDS church, but it looks very much like the church of 60 A.D. that Paul pictures for us. Well, Tom, before we end this show, the historical Jesus and the historical Joseph Smith, once again, let our listeners know where they can get a copy of this book. I would point them to the book's website, historicaljoseph.org, historicaljoseph.org. On the home page are five links for Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Utah Lighthouse Ministry. The lowest price can be found through the company site for HarperCollins Christians, Zondervan, and Thomas Nelson.

It's called churchsource.com, churchsource.com. The historical Jesus and the historical Joseph Smith, we've been talking to Tom Hobson, the author of this book. Tom, thanks for taking the time to be with us on the show. Well, thank you, Bill. It has been a pleasure.

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