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Darrell Bock (Isaiah 53) Max Lucado (Jesus/Christmas)

Janet Mefferd Today / Janet Mefferd
The Truth Network Radio
December 25, 2019 8:30 am

Darrell Bock (Isaiah 53) Max Lucado (Jesus/Christmas)

Janet Mefferd Today / Janet Mefferd

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December 25, 2019 8:30 am

All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.” Isaiah 53 shows us Jesus, the Messiah, as the suffering servant who would bear our sins. But what else should we know about this great passage? Dr. Darrell Bock joins me to talk about it and his book, “The Gospel According to Isaiah 53.” Plus: That little baby in the manger grew into a King on a cross, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. Max Lucado joins me to explain why Christmas is all about Jesus as we discuss his book, "Because of Bethlehem." That's on the Christmas edition of JANET MEFFERD TODAY.


This archived broadcast of Janet for today is brought to you by Provident films and affirm films movie overcome are coming to the small screen in time for Christmas overcome are available on digital Blu-ray and DVD are confidences in Christ alone to that great oratorio than just celebrating Christ's birth. It also includes a focus upon the work of our Lord Jesus Christ. Specifically, Isaiah chapter 53 verses four and five. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows. He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities chastisement of our peace was upon him and on and on in several sections there of Handel's Messiah at Christmas time and were celebrating the birth of Christ were also always looking ahead to how he became that suffering servant prophesied in Isaiah 53 who went to the cross on our behalf, and died and rose again to save us. Isaiah 53 is a really interesting passage because there's so much insight to be gained as to its history and its theology, especially as we share the gospel with our Jewish neighbors, and use that passage to do so. So working to dive into this very famous chapter of Scripture with Dr. Darrell Bock Dr. Brock is research professor of New Testament studies at Dallas theological seminary, and today were to be talking about a book that he edited the gospel according to Isaiah 53 and Dr. Bock how are you Merry Christmas will America little while, but you're still alive so that we could reconnect and I'm glad were reconnecting on this passage I have to say Isaiah 53 is one of my very favorite passages and I'm I'm sure it's one of yours to very ready products are written to people and so makes it even more now.

Talk about that a little bit because obviously there are those who would look at Isaiah 53 with very different eyes than we do. As evangelical Christians well yeah it passage of all Scripture is not the God. Think of the suggestions that have Jesus is the most viable course for many Jewish people theology of Jesus being the Messiah is enough and so it was a rule out of the synagogue and so sometimes when you share this passage with the Jewish person you'll get one of two reactions. One is well. We should be ready not been told by my rabbi that we shouldn't do it. Or secondly, they'll go. That's sure to sound like Jesus is what I was told to believe so. All that's interesting. So they just don't use it in the synagogues at all, but don't they have to deal with it at some point and explain it away. If they don't think that it's referring to Jesus. Well, it depend on how how much you interact with the whole of Scripture as opposed to toward certain parts of the Old Testament and so what they do a good trident. There is clear about it but cannot. Interesting that they need to read it because obviously this is such a great prophecy about the Messiah, and this is part of the thinking was in it for putting the book together to evangelize to help bring this chapter back to Jewish people so they could see it for themselves. That's right, this book is put together mostly by people who have a messianic Jewish background out of Judaism and to buy and because of that I wanted people to be aware of what this chapter say in the history of the discussion around the structures well for both what Isaiah 53 means, but also how it's been interpreted throughout time in such a way that people can understand some of the reactions I might get ensuring they're going to send out historically what I've always heard is that way back when and when this was written and Jews were reading the Old Testament studying at they couldn't have fathomed that their Messiah would suffer what what are the details on that.

Well, the idea that injured it is, generally speaking, the picture of Messiah delivery figure and so we read some of the stuff that was written between the end of the Old Testament and the beginning of the new text like Psalm of Solomon 17 and 18 N. portions of a book called first you get a very powerful delivering Messiah. Whether you be a political military figure or a transcendent figure spent about the car crash the party on earth and take care of things and and so this very overwhelmingly powerful figure became the dominant image for the Messiah. And so the idea of the Messiah could suckle with just too much of a curveball or tool try to consider certain the passage itself and everybody will have read this is a very familiar passage, but in context for us what is going on. As Isaiah is writing nests, and to whom is he addressing this.

What should we know about the background on the passage well I is writing to a nation of vanilla. Warning them about the judgment to come there even warnings about judgment of a foreign ruler who is going to come and discipline the nation that kind of thing but all fully out of that chaos. There's the hope for deliverance and that what you are depicting and so there's a figure called the servant figure in the latter part of Isaiah Isaiah 42 Isaiah 66 and that servant figure initially important. Try to nation because that was the mission was to be the servant of God in the world to represent him well and bring his revelation of people, but they had spiraled in that in that assignment.

And so now what was happening was mission to a more individualized one had failed to happen, so and so, as you work with this portrait of the month by Narrows from big about the nation down to being about the person with five well thought out loud were were assigned to staff and by yet in the mid-narrowing Isaiah 53 pops up and it is about the individual Messiah as opposed to national climate that Israel had okay yeah now for people who have not read it before and they come to it. Knowing something on such a familiar passage, people will automatically say, oh Jesus, of course, have heard the sound of my life, but about the addressing of God's people is the nation of Israel versus believers who are in a calm and those are grafted in his Gentiles. Later who is being addressed here in Isaiah's mind well and I really what we have figured it been personalized and individual bearers who bear the sufferings of others, and who also represents the notion of science, and so and so this representative rolls what you describe of the individual Messiah and he is representing the people of God and the unrighteousness suffered in the end the suffering, the persecution of undergone, but another element of this portrait of the little body makes it clear that were not dealing with the nation of Israel. The Sabbath rejected by his own very own people makes and so that portrait in the background is also important to the overall understanding of Buddhist figure it out somebody who is living back to Dan reading this passage, primarily were they picking up on that. I mean, prior to Jesus coming. Obviously it would've been somewhat oblique, but how how obvious did this become to you know to look back for the Jews to look back on this passage initially and say wow all this prophecy is here and it all came to pass. Well, it would've been very very oblique. I think initially, and I think what happened was the servant figure in earlier passages seem to be the nation that personalized in terms of the persecution that the nation suffered and as a result I didn't tend to individualize the past and in doing that they actually missed the application.

Now some people reading it when my came across it at least had the potential to recognize and so we get a passage like activate what Philip shares with the Ethiopian eunuch from this passage and explain how it applies to Jesus in the Ethiopian eunuch even though he has only Hebrew Scripture background the course and doesn't know about the story of Jesus perceives that that's what's going on, and so comes to comes to faith, and of course that the union with and being baptized yes and so Isaiah 53.

As you mentioned later on in the book actually has is picked up really and has a role in some of the letters of Paul and Peter in and on into John doesn't get out of the imagery of the servant being a ransom for giving his life for many, or of the body and the blood, the picture of the Last Supper being offered for your committee, depending on whether work is Matthew Mark or Luke in first Corinthians. These images about the subject vision are probably rooted in all likelihood in Isaiah 53 is fascinating. I and again another example of how the Bible ties together between the old and the new Testaments and and really what we want to get into when we come back is the gospel, how we see the gospel all over Isaiah 53 comeback Dr. Darrell back with me punching an effort to stay with us films and films comes over, coming to me immediately ready in time for Christmas.

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In every single first to go through them. Dr. rock but here it starts out who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed, for he grew up before him like a tender shoot. Now some people will look at that and say he grew up before him, referencing Jesus going up before God or how would that have been looked at and how should we look at that.

Well, I probably should look at it. He grew up before him and here's one that God is and he grew up before him, and in the tender shoot is the picture of of humility that you are doing with Anna. You really just a normal frail human being and many white.yes and so and course Jesus is this bigger and again the surprise. Dr. this humble figure who have powerful role sure right when when you see this reference to it and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed.

Do you see specific references in Isaiah 53 to Jesus actually being God well but less clear from of the outdated 53 passage itself wired that idea comes through is by connecting it to earlier images that I will drop the description of the thought Messiah in chapters like Isaiah 7 and Isaiah 9 Isaiah 7 course the picture of of the birth of a child whose God without which then becomes the allusion to the virgin birth in the New Testament and the picture of Isaiah and mine where this figure is called, you know, Marty God father, I called the King right yes exactly, but then it goes on to say he's not attractive. There's nothing that we would look at him, you know, you know, stately former Majesty that we should look upon him, nor appearance that we should be attracted to him.

He was despised and forsaken.

So he's showing this person who might be very mysterious to those who are initially reading it as someone who is not great I mean and that's that's kind of how it comes across. If you just look at it and try to take all the contacts out.

The drive is a very very descriptive very, very similarly on the surface average human being you all be characteristics and attributes that end up being making them capable of delivering people yes but as to his saving work.

There's so much packed in there because he's carrying our griefs any our sorrows.

He was smitten of God, and afflicted. He was pierced through for our transgressions, etc. etc. and also this description interestingly of all of us like sheep have gone astray, and each of us is turned to his own way, but the Lord has what has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on him by there you have it. It's not just a description of Jesus, but also our problem. Our sin problem, provided it describes all the language of course. Another feature of the interest in the middle passage of the audio on partnership going through sure she goes without a word and in the picture of the gospel. When you see the description of Jesus is goes in the crucifixion silently goes crucifixion is innocently goes the crucifixion is a righteous person being executed for having performed manually on righteous deeds, even though it is completely Roger so that there are two elements of the New Testament in the substitutionary war you're reading this blog and this out of which the both of those elements are in the 53 there's a chapter in the book that asks the question does Isaiah 53 actually envision vicarious sacrificial substitution to make atonement. So what is the answer on that.

The answer that is yeah that there is a sub missionary work that he bears our bird, our place and so the picture is very much of a substitutionary work on offering the satisfied God in the place are penalty even though were not the one to suffer right so there it is, but are there those who would say that there is not a substitutionary atonement referred to in Isaiah 53 there's the bride in the passage about whether there's an actual graph or screen as opposed to intense suffering, so that part of why some of the people some people might challenge an aspect of the reading, but it's clear that the suffering is the subject assuring one. The question is how far, how far does the servant go suffering and the passage very much in all likelihood deals with the death as opposed to just mere intense suffering.

Now verse 10. This is interesting that just the phrases is striking but the Lord was pleased to crush him, putting him to grief if he would render himself is a guilt offering. So there's kind of a language again, but there were these different offerings in the end, the Jewish system guilt offerings and so forth. But what is the understanding there when when it uses the phrase guilt offering well again word were dealing here with you know what someone had yelled at because they have a responsibility and accountability, or God in their acknowledging their falling short so guilt offering is designed to make rest with Christian so it is not always the same as a sin offering that is very much related and and so it is an acknowledgment that this sacrifice has taken the place of some that left me separated from God and that needs needs to be some form of retribution and that's what you sacrifice for the servant sacrifice actually does achieve some brain but in verse 10, the reference to he will see his offspring, he will prolong his days in the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in his hand.

What is specifically referring to his offspring being those who would follow him.

Those who would be Christians. Well the picture is a representation accepted in God's family. Remember that the cross of the this is a rejected one. Yes and now the rejected one becomes accepted and acceptable, and he's going to himself leader trying to people who will become part of the family of God so great, so great and there's also references to justification because we are we have that reference in verse 11 to that my servant will justify the many also says he himself bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.

It seems like every aspect of salvation is packed into this one chapter.

Yeah, and Matt versus the truth not only as a substitutionary sacrifice, but he also becomes an epic that on the so wonderful I'm sure is Dr. Mark. What did Jesus see in Isaiah 53. Do we know much about Jesus view of Isaiah 53 and his fulfillment of that passage yeah I uses clear images that again at the two images I mentioned earlier will speak about himself as being a ransom offered on behalf of many alluding to the language of this passage, and he also describes himself as one reckoned among the transgressors, which is the picture of innocence, the innocent who suffers, which is the second thing that comes out of the passage so those are the two things that Jesus utilizes what is at the Last Supper and he uses the language of representation.

For many are for you at the Last Supper. He's also alluding to the sub missionary work in Isaiah 53 and sunny end. Of course he references a hold of the Old Testament is testifying of him. So that would include Isaiah 53 what the early church now how how did the early church deal with Isaiah 53, while the early church also saw this passage is important talked about it when I talked about the suffering of the Messiah really were two passages that the size Messiah. Suffering is in the New Testament in the early church.

One is Psalm 118 which is actually very underappreciated.

It surpasses the of the stone that the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone Idea and also blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.

So one of them anticipates the suffering and the other appoints of the acceptability of this person is rejected, and yet exalted alternately by God.Psalm 118 and many other passages with Isaiah 53 passage.

In particular, the two elements that I've been mentioning is the way which is the subject assuring work on the one hand, and the fact that Jesus went to his innocent of anything he did, but basically bearing that penalty on behalf of others. Right okay so now when we take this chapter. How is it used because you talk about biblical theology and practical theology and how this fits in with that. How is Isaiah 53 treated in biblical theology. What is its role or how would it be used well in Christian biblical theology. Obviously, it's very, very central, is one of the messianic predictions about who Jesus is whining that kind of thing. And so it becomes very important in a holistic, the book biblical theology to see how God was looking forward to what he was doing in Jesus Christ and that this is one of the key messianic prophecies or Christological prophecies prophecies about Jesus that God used the kind of paint the portrait beforehand and of course if you share this passage with people out of the Jewish background either not be familiar with the passage little catch him by surprise. It might catch their curiosity because when I read it sometime so recognized. I think that's the story I've heard about Jesus or they'll recognize the passage about been told I shouldn't mess with and I should leave alone and so the kind of like how to keep the passage at arms length and and so you want to help them draw in and reflect on what the passages say and how it might actually connect to things that have happened that's great so what would you focus on when you are trying to evangelize Jewish person and you look at the totality of Isaiah 53 would you pull out particular verses that you think make a great case more than others, how would you do it first thing I do is just listen the person to hear where they're coming from with their voter to the passage previously has been thought, no, I call it getting a GPS getting a divine positioning on the move. You know God positioning on them and so I want to hear where they're coming from first so I kinda know how to talk about it and then depending on what their background is, but I curious do recognize the potential connection to Jesus Garrett off the passage in one way or another. And then, depending on what that responses will then determine how I would talk about that yet will all awfully great advice because this certainly is a great passage, especially in the context of Isaiah as a whole to say here. Messiah is here Paul Dr. dear Mike, thank you so much for being with us today.

Merry Christmas again my pleasure in Merry Christmas and happy new year to you and your value to you and thanks Dr. Brockett will be back on jam effort today after this archived broadcast of Janet for today is brought to you by Provident films and affirm films movie overcome or coming to the small screen in time for Christmas overcome are available on digital Blu-ray and DVD effort today and here's your host Joe never clear back content effort. Today, no matter how many times we, the good news.

We never tire of hearing it again.

The story of the birth of our Savior Christ. Chapter 2 of Luke tells it simply the young girl, Mary gives birth to her firstborn son and the shepherds living in the fields nearby were afraid when an angel of the Lord appeared to them, the angel said to them, do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people. Today in the town of David, has been born to you. He is the Messiah, the Lord, and the significance of the birth of Christ can't be overstated because God sent him to die for our sins and to be raised from the dead to reconcile centers to a holy God and assure for us a place in heaven.

Best is what Christmas is all about and it's a great time of year to remember that tiny baby, our Savior and so working to take some time out now to reflect on the birth of Jesus with best-selling author Max the Cato pastor of Oak Hills church in San Antonio and he is out with a new book called because of Bethlehem.

And it's great to talk to again Max how are you will thank you so much for letting me be on the program in Merry Christmas to you I'm doing great busy like everybody else. This time of the year, but it's a good busy and Edward were really doing well. Well I'm glad to hear that Merry Christmas to you too. This is an exciting time of year and I know that you love Christmas you talk about it right at the beginning of the book we all do. One of the things that you say is you love those questions that people will ask a Christmas it's a unique time of year were even non-Christians will start asking questions will who is this Jesus. What does he really mean and what do I really need to know about them.

What kinds of questions you think are important at Christmas. Well, I think the big question is simply what, what's the big deal about the baby in the manger of at some point we all asked that question. You know what's what's unique about him. Why do we call Christmas Christ certainly aware like everybody else is that this time a year can can get overly commercialized. We can get focus on parties and relatives in trips of more than Christmas, but yet there I think is still the wonderful possibility that somebody was never considered Christmas ever before. Will let this Christmas be the time for know what is the big deal about that baby. Why is his birth still remembered all these hundreds and hundreds of years later. That's right exactly, right now when you talk about one of the identities of Christ.

When the names of Christ.

They will call him and Manuel. We see this in the Gospel of Matthew, which means God with us. What significant should that name and Manuel have for us in understanding who the baby is your name Immanuel means, God with us. You think we would've been happy just to know God before us or God near us, but to say God with us states that that wherever we go in life. God is God is guarding us from the front from the back and from the side from the side to round he surrounds and because God knew this would be hard for us to believe that's the reason he became a baby in and entered our world and didn't just enter the plush city of the world of Rome or Athens but he chose to enter just a tiny map God of the town called Bethlehem in the most humble of circumstances, and so one of the things that happens when a person really looks at the Christmas store is that come face-to-face with the tenderness of God that he would do this, that he would go so far that he would reach out to such a distance, and to such a degree that he could relate to me and I could relate to him and that he would have the name Immanuel. He earned that name didn't the ease with this yes now that's a good point. I love how you say that it could just been God for us or God near us, but it was also God with us. When that baby was born and you think about it, Max.

The most vulnerable state. Imaginable is the state into which God entered our world as a baby.

Here's Jesus the Savior of the world he can't do anything for himself. He's completely dependent on the sinful humans around him to raise him. What does this tell us about the character of God that he would be willing to enter into our world in such a vulnerable state humbled himself. The Scripture says anything he took on the form of a baby, took on the form of a human being. The other so there's so many take away precious points out of the incarnation of Jesus, but I think the one that absolutely essential is this proves that we have a heavenly father who understands us, you're right. There's nothing more vulnerable than that been the position of the baby in a manger absolutely dependent upon someone else and the reason that we all can relate to. That is because we've been we found ourselves in vulnerable situations.

Baby in a hospital may be being laid off worker or maybe having a spouse turn us out or cheat on a few of those situations where you just feel vulnerable and exposed. And we can react either with fear or anger. Usually it's a combination of both.

What what Jesus did what God did through Jesus Christ as he placed himself in that vulnerable situation and that tells me that whenever I go to God and for God.

I just feel afraid, or am angry. He says I know exactly how you feel you have been there fact that I've been more even more so did that, then you have the Bible says we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with the yes we have one who's been tested and tempted in every way, just like we are getting in and I think this thing people. This is the answer to the question. Can God understand with this God listen to me when I pray the answer because of Bethlehem. We know that God does understand and he does yes yes now and that such an important aspect of the discussion when we go back to Emmanuelle. The name of Jesus that God is with us for those who say God is far away. If there really is a God he doesn't understand what I'm going through. That's exactly what you're speaking to their the fact that God lived a human life and yet was holy and was God simultaneously being fully God and fully man means there is nothing that we go through with which Christ cannot identify debts, not just a Savior who save me.

That's someone who loves me that's a Savior who identified with me, and humbled himself in order to do it. You think think you know I don't ever quantified this but just after 30 years in ministry come to the conclusion that most people think God is mad at you if there is a God of letting down that's kind of the view. I think that's the view that most people have of if there is a God he's ticked off at me. Well according to Scripture, there is a God, and is not ticked off at you. He understands what it's like to be a human. He remembers that were made does and to prove it.

He became one of us know the ultimate reason he became one of his is not just relate to us, but like you said at the outfit to die for us to be a sacrifice. What began in the cradle is really culminated on the cross and we celebrate Christmas, there'd be no Christmas of there was an Easter and and so the Savior and the angel told Mary unto you, a child is born, a Savior is born. Even the name Jesus comes from a Hebrew name, which means God say so, so, so God didn't tell us to save ourselves. He became one of us and lived a sinless life, so that he could die on the cross, the debt that we deserved and he could save us. He could save us at not just from our taxes, not just from our grumpy mood, thought just from the government but but that he could save us from our sin. Save us from what separates us from God.

That's right. That's what that's what matters most is sorry about that exited me to step on you there.

But you say Christmas yeah Christmas commemorates the day in the way God saved us from ourselves. I think that is so well said that's exactly what you're talking about absolutely, absolutely.

That's what Christmas matters you know I love everything about Christmas and I'm not one of these folks, I don't really get uptight about all the commercialism and and things got a fun but but I do think I do think that we we must make some time every year for a face-to-face heart-to-heart time in which we kneel before God and we just say thank you. We also are you I was just in Jerusalem a few weeks ago I went to the church as a fling on one second I want to hear this story but we have to run to recording to come back with Max cicada because of them will be back right after this healthcare open enrollment period has ended.

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Liberty health I was afraid I was skiing. I know what to do and I have a question and he was like you not ready for an moment I felt that they these are the voices that a young mom in crisis hears. She wants to make the right choice, but society and those around her are telling her that a pre-born baby is not a life pre-born is the largest provider of free ultrasounds in the country, shining a light into a mother swim introducing her to the beautiful life growing inside of her heartbeat to change my life just from now to so would you join with pre-born and Janet met for today to help save 400 babies by the end of the year for $140 you can sponsor five ultrasounds and help say five babies from abortion and now through match your gift is doubled.

All gifts are tax-deductible to donate down 1855402, baby. That's 855-402-2229 or there's a banner and Janet you're listening to in Medford today and know you. We are mankind Janet Manfred today and how exciting it is this time of year where we rate the birth of our Savior Jesus Christ and joining us now is Max McCain, a best-selling author and pastor at Oak Hills church and Antonio talking about his new book about Christmas because of Bethlehem and Max. It was terrible timing on our part but I want you to be able to tell that story were beginning to tell before we had to go to the break about your trip. It's a wonderful story. It is just a reminder that we wait in order to see Christ.

We need to humble ourselves and the reason that brought up the church of the Nativity in Bethlehem is it is.

Most people knows you know it's it's really is the oldest continual sanctuary where people have worshiped Christ on earth. It was founded in 326 A.D. by Helene that the mother of Constantine, and who knows that that's exactly where Jesus was born, but people for all the centuries have gone there to observe the deep place where Christ was born, but to get into the church of the Nativity, the doorway is only 4 feet tall, and there's no way to get into the church of the Nativity without lowering yourself, you know, I've been in and out of it several times in one, but my head is below the lower myself and I asked one of the one of the curators. That's why why the small doors is built for I don't know animals are nice at all. No, no, the point is that in order to see the birth of Christ, you must lower yourself and you know that's hard for people to acknowledge that Jesus Christ is the son of God and that he sits on the throne of all is for me to confess that I'm not God, and I don't sit on the throne and that's hard for people and it is absolutely essential and I think it is the healthiest thing we can do you know when everybody in the world is building their lives around themselves. The result is the chaos that we see today. But the real solution to all the chaos and pandemonium in our world is not that one person is right and another one is wrong, but that all of us of wrong wrong.

All of us have fallen short in that we can all humble ourselves before the King of Kings and that's why he's called the Principe because he will bring peace and work that so well said, and I would love to visit that church than to Nativity sometime and stoop myself that would be a wonderful experience.

One of the things Max that you talk about as far as the biblical account of the birth of Jesus is the fact that the genealogies that are there sometimes are passed over by people who are reading the Bible and they sound really need to know whose father was Susan his grandfather came out. Why are those there, why do they bog down the real story get to the real story about the genealogies and the importance of the genealogies to the Christmas story. I have never heard a Christmas sermon that really begins in Matthew chapter 1 Christmas sermon skip over to Matthew chapter 2, and I understand you know, we call on God through big ads so-and-so begets on so-and-so until we get so on.

So I think there are many reasons that the gospel writers included the lineage a part of it is the fulfillment of prophecy part of it showing that the lineage of Christ and his connection to the house of David and his and his relationship all the way back to Abraham, even to Adam and Eve. But there's another reason that is when you look at the print people on the family tree of Jesus. They were a bunch of rascals bunch of troublemakers. They were not people that you would want on your family tree. If they work. You wouldn't tell anybody, but here Matthew begins with the announcement that Jesus came and spied of all these people was David who committed adultery.

There was Rahab the harlot father was the outsider route. There was the troublemaker just one person after another and you live in a time I think we need to be told that out of all this chaos in the world of all the trouble of all the concerns that we have about terrorism about government develop elected officials. Out of all of this can any good. Come will the big announcement of Matthew chapter 1 is out of the store. Family tree came, God came, Jesus came to Louisville give up Have to have perfection to do his work. Work through some some basket raffle people yes and certainly has. Yes exactly that. That is, in spite of the chaos of the world. Christ was not From coming here and that's again that's something that's very comforting in the middle of our mass and our sin and our failures in our sorrows, God walked with us.

God came in the form of the baby when we look at the Christmas story and I'm fascinated by this to you talk about the situation at the time. For example, what was going on with Herod.

Here's Herod is the villain and he wants to kill the Messiah. He doesn't want any rival for his kingship and God spares Jesus. Obviously he's able to flee about Herod and what he missed in being the villain in the story rather than bowing the knee and humbling himself before this Christ the King in the manger. Every every person in the birth story since the message to us and I think one of the great ways to study the Christmas story is to look at the different characters and Herod is one of those characters. What opportunity he had what what what did it cost him to on hearing the words of the wise man who said they had followed a star and wanted to know where the king was going to be born and then when Herod told his scholars consult the Scriptures and the scholars came back and said well it's going to be born in Bethlehem 10 miles away, what would cost. To say well I think I'll go see if these wise men have traveled so far.

If the Torah offers this prophecy. What would it have caused him to cross you know those 10 miles to see but but you know what he was jealous.

He was jealous because they did not want another king to be born in the result with the bloodshed of the killing the slaughter of the innocents you know you set up a decree that every child and every male child under the age of two would be killed. What it terrible terrible response about it. He was so selfish hardhearted that he goes to Scripture is a man who was arrogant he didn't see Christ, we certainly can make that same mistake in our day and there are many people unfortunately who continue to let pride come between them and salvation, as you say. Pride comes at a high price and it does discuses urgency, doesn't it. When we share the gospel to say your pride is not worth helming it in order to be saved. You must humble yourself before this baby, you must understand that he is Lord he is your hope and why would you not want to humble yourself and understand that he came for you yeah and and and how can we be arrogant anyway in order that come from. Yes, I thought, interview a few weeks ago on one of the major news networks in an interview with an actor like a fitting name for the well-known well-established is in his 80s now very frail man remember what movie he was robust and muscular. But now I stand in frail and stooped over and he he he talks, his voice is very weak, but he and that interview told the person who was interviewing him. He said this, I am my own God.

I am my own God. There's a God, he is me.

He had the audacity to say that various stooped, nearly dying. It can even keep himself alive and he had the audacity to say I am my own God. That to me this is foolish and that's what keeps us from seeing the true God of the universe is what keeps us from humbling ourselves and seeing Jesus Christ.

I hope we don't we don't make that mistake.

I agree that is really sad you think if you hold up a mirror to him, might he reconsider. You know that's baby so really a tragedy when you talk about the gospel at Christmas time. Max is you do in your book. How do you tell people to best celebrate Christmas. What should we be focused upon. Right now yeah I think Christmas is a great time for us to ready center of our lives on what matters.

First of all we we look at the baby and and we we agree with the great statement of the Christmas message that is God loves me and God understands those two principles can change a life and since God loves me. I can love others I can. Not only love God, but I can love my neighbor so Christmas is a time, not just to re-center ourselves from God. But it's also time to reevaluate our relationships. Maybe there's somebody to whom you need to give love. Maybe there's somebody who needs your forgiveness.

Maybe there's somebody to whom you should work from home, you should request forgiveness. I'll let this be a time in which you reevaluate your relationships, and then I think most of all just be grateful. Just be grateful your gratitude is the wonderful balm for the soul and we can be grateful for God loves us and God. Amen.

Well great because of Max Aquino spending some time with us Max. Merry Christmas. It was wonderful to talk to you again. Thank you Janet am honored to be on the program. Thank you. Take care and thanks again for being with us and thank you for joining us here enchantment for today, website, and we will see you there

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