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Chip Ingram (Living in Christ) Robert Tyler (Rob McCoy)

Janet Mefferd Today / Janet Mefferd
The Truth Network Radio
August 13, 2020 5:00 am

Chip Ingram (Living in Christ) Robert Tyler (Rob McCoy)

Janet Mefferd Today / Janet Mefferd

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August 13, 2020 5:00 am

A judge weighs in on Pastor Rob McCoy's decision to keep worshiping God in person at Godspeak Calvary Chapel in California. We'll get the latest on his case from his attorney, Robert Tyler of Tyler & Bursch. Plus: Chip Ingram, teaching pastor and CEO of Living on the Edge, discusses who we are in Christ. His book is called, "Discover Your True Self." That and more on Thursday's JANET MEFFERD TODAY.

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This archived broadcast of Janet for today is brought to you by liberty health sheer liberty. Health share is a nonprofit healthcare sharing ministry that allows you to control and manage your own healthcare and choose any doctor or hospital in the nation. If your freedom loving American looking for contract free healthcare call now 855-585-4237 or go to liberty, health share.org/GMT for more information liberty health chair.org/GMT is our confidence is in Christ alone again I find critical and really ironic. What I find really hypocritical and ironic is Democrats who spend all of their time trying to marginalize Christians or call them deplorable's or put them down because they're not sufficiently onboard with homosexuality and a redefinition of marriage or get after them because they don't care about women's bodies, but when election rolls around. All of a sudden they want to be really religious and not just really religious. They were out religious anybody on the GOP side. They call themselves religious, I'm more religious. I'm a person of faith, while impressive, here's the latest example of this, the newly picked vice presidential candidates on the Democrat ticket.

Sen. Kamala Harris is now being touted for bringing Baptist and interfaith roots to the Democratic ticket really you're going to make Kamala Harris the poster child for religiosity. It was just a few weeks ago that CNN was touting Joe Biden as this amazing man of faith. He's just so strong in his Catholic faith.

And this man can woo the evangelicals they really think were dumb. Don't think they really do think were dumb and we can't figure out that pretty much everything. These people are trying to shove down the throats of the American people as antithetical to Christianity. They really think we have short term memories when in fact we don't.

Here's part of what AP reported by Kamala Harris the 55-year-old first-term Democratic senator whose name means Lotus incident Sanskrit identifies as a Baptist. As an adult and brought another faith into her life in 2014 when she married Douglas M half a Jewish attorney. Their wedding featured the breaking of a glass of Jewish tradition and Harris's stepchildren gave her a nickname that rhymes with her name that recalls the Yiddish term monologue mammal.

I guess it would be. Then he goes on to say that she went to the church of God as a child and she had some inkling with Hinduism ad like this and pressing okay so she's just a smorgasbord of associations of various religions and traditions so what so what are sore bunch of interfaith confuse people in the mainline to go nuts for her. It would seem that they were already in that camp. That's where the mainline is there not exactly conservatives they're not exactly proud Republicans so not really sure what this is all about pushing the religiosity angle, but about getting a lot more of this. Remember when I was telling you during the primaries that Cory Booker was being touted as the progressive religious guy probably one of the nastiest people to ever serve in Congress. But oh, he's religious. He's religious again it goes back to progressive's non-understanding of the Bible. All they know is Matthew 25 out of contacts and the sermon on the mount out of context that that's only half there know what else to say, and Joe Biden wandering around talking about being his brother's keeper. This even understand the context of the theft of that line in the word of God, probably not. But one of the things that has come up about Kamala Harris is very important and that was what happened just a few years ago when she was trying to go after this manual remember him. You remember this man. Judicial nominees have had a hard time with some of these progressives but Sen. Kamala Harris and Sen. Maisie Hirano of Hawaii. Both Democrats went after this judge, this judicial nominee and they were getting a hard time because he had an association with the Knights of Columbus and in the Senate ended up approving a resolution that rebuked both of these women requesting them, questioning them about their membership in the Knights of Columbus which is a Catholic fraternal service organization, Harris described them as an all male society and asked if this man Brian Buescher if he if he actually knew that the Knights opposed a woman's right to choose and were against marriage equality say all comes down to that abortion and homosexuality.

And this was the report back then from EWTN listen to: the high-profile California is known for rigorous questioning of prison trumps nominees. She recently asked me to Bishop Kennedy about his membership in the Knights of Columbus with her would prevent him from the trap of those questions have sparked charges of anti-Catholic discrimination go considerably in Sask responded with a resolution approved unanimously by the Senate of a center has a problem with this resolution, probably in the wrong line of work, because this is what America is a super basic point no religious test. If someone has a problem with this resolution. What other parts of the Constitution just for the press. While that's interesting now what about the issue of abortion. There's a lot we could say about Biden and Harris being the most radical pro-abortion ticket probably ever hear was Kamala Harris.

This is from a time magazine clip in 2019.

Talking about her plans for states that would try to restrict abortion if she were put into the office of the presidency. Listen to what she says this is cut to for any state that passes a law that violates the Constitution, and in particular Roe V Wade, our Department of Justice will review that long to determine if it is compliant road with Roe V Wade in the Constitution, and if it is not that law will not go into effect. That's called preclearance.

Because the reality is that while we still have. As I said earlier, these state legislatures, legislators, cool are outdated and out of touch, mostly men, who are telling women what to do with their bodies and their needs to be accountability and I'll go further. You may have seen it, I question Brett Cavanaugh when I was a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee and asked him as a nominee to serve on the United States Supreme Court could he think of any law that tells a man what to do with his body and the answer was no. The reality of it is this is still a fundamental issue of justice for women in America. Women have been given the responsibility to perpetuate the human species. Our bodies were created to do that and it does not give any other person the right to tell a woman what to do with that body. It is her body is her right it is her decision.

That's the kind of logic you want in the White House. But let's go over this when you were pressing Brett Cavanaugh about any laws that would pertain to a man's body versus a woman's body. Let me just remind you about basic biology Sen. Harris because you're talking about two bodies when you talking about a woman being pregnant and the reason that it is about a woman is because men don't have Wilms now I know you don't really get into that because you've bought into all of this radical sexual ideology in which men can be women and women can be men in their 58 sexes, and genders and all this nonsense you're believing this insane fiction, but the rest of us to live our heads on straight. So try a little logic there and Joe Biden the man of faith. The man who really is a strong, strong, strong, strong Catholic, had this to say I'm going back to the debate that he did in 2012 the vice presidential debate because this is where he talked about his views on abortion, telling a religious you think this is cut three with regard to abortion, I accept my Church's position on abortion say we call the doctor. Life begins at conception, Church's judgment, except in my personal life, but I refuse to impose it on equally devout Christians and Muslims and Jews. I just refused to impose that on others. Unlike my friend Congressman. I do not believe that we have a right to tell other people that women can control her body is under Dr. Supreme Court on market interfere with well there's Joe Biden for you the man of faith. I accept what my church teaches clearly you don't because you weren't meant to merely agree with your church when you're there on Sunday.

You're meant to carried out in your life. Throughout the week and it's just a Dodge.

We all know it's a Dodge. We all know what these people are doing and to top that off, the human rights campaign, the biggest homosexual rights lobby group on earth says that Sen. Kamala Harris is nothing short of an exceptional choice for vice president, the president of HRC Alfonso David said that it's clear the Biden Harris ticket marks our nation's most pro-equality taken in history that means most committed to the sexual radicals agenda to get the equality act passed and criminalize Christianity, but these are people of faith. Just remember that people of faith, faith, faith, faith, faith, faith, which faith and faith in him that matters for to come back when we do to talk to the attorney of Pastor Rob McCoy, the man who's bravely standing up for freedom of religion in California Godspeed Calvary Chapel. Stay with us right back hi this is Kirk Cameron and I am honored to be partnering with the Ministry of pre-born to help moms choose life actor Kirk Cameron supports pre-born. My four oldest children were adopted. That is because of caring and compassionate people who help those young mothers choose life. My wife is an adopted child and her birth mother chose life for her if it weren't for those caring individuals that help those young moms of value. The sacredness of life. I wouldn't have my wife I wouldn't have my four adopted children and the true natural born children that we have wouldn't exist either. My whole family is here because of people that are involved with ministries like freeborn freeborn funds pregnancy centers across the nation so they can offer free ultrasounds to women in crisis pregnancies. Ultrasound is a game changer because when abortion minded women actually see their babies in their wombs for themselves. 80% of the time they choose life, would you please join us at Janet today to support the ministry of pre-born for $140 you can provide five free ultrasounds to women in crisis pregnancies. One ultrasound is just $28 and every gift helps to donate please call now 855402, baby. That's 855-402-2229 or there's a banner to click@janetmyfor.com. All gifts are tax-deductible, and 100% of your gift goes directly toward saving babies, you can get involved and you can help save a life for a gift of $140.05 free ultrasounds will be offered to women in crisis pregnancies. Please call now with your gift. 855402, baby. That's 855402 baby 855-402-2229 or there's a banner to click@janetmattfor.com you're listening to. These are really incredible days for the pastors and churches who are willing to stand up for their religious freedom, as we told you yesterday, Ventura County, California Superior Court Judge Vincent O'Neill Junior has now granted the request of county officials for a hearing to hold Pastor Rob McCoy of Godspeed Calvary Chapel in contempt for holding in person worship services in violation of pandemic restrictions.

Thankfully, Judge O'Neill did not affirm the government's request to have the Sheriff's office take necessary action to actually close down the church but how disturbing is it that the government even wants to do that or to talk about it all now with Pastor McCoy's attorney, Robert Tyler Gen. partner at Tyler Birch and president of its legal nonprofit advocates for faith and freedom. Robert so good to have you here. Thanks for being with us you agree with you as well. Yes. Well, this week's hearing. I know came after Pastor McCoy held these church services this past weekend even though another judge had issued this restraining order against God speak last week. What are your thoughts on Judge O'Neill split decision this week will I am thankful for the maid. You know, he effectively denied their request yesterday and agreed that I have to balance the First Amendment and he said their request to close the order the sheriff to close the doors of the church will." A step too far. He dealt with though it was great to finally have a judge in a particularly born to who's willing to stop and say wait a minute, there's some value to our First Amendment. We need to figure out what that is, before we go any further. Yes, research did you think that was kind of an over-the-top request on the part of the county mean that's awfully aggressive and really kind of a warning shot, it would seem to other churches who want to do the same thing. Well it it to be effective, frankly, is it over-the-top.

Yeah, you know, the data just doesn't support what the governor's order has demanded and that is you know, to prevent all churches from eating indoors and it it the beyond reason because the risk.

For example, to anybody who'd reasonably healthy. Anybody who does not have underlying health conditions. Anybody who's under really about eight years old, they can go to church and if they caught COBIT. 19 somehow because they were sitting next to somebody was singing of the risk of them dying is literally a fraction of a fraction of a percent. It is basically 0.0049%. It's so remote and so the idea that we are making public policy to restrict everyone's liberties rather than to encourage individuals who might have underlying health conditions to stay home and to protect themselves were shutting down the entire economy of the big political math and that's really I believe what it comes down to, and our religious liberties are being tossed to the wind, thanks to the Democrats who are running the state that the artist seeking to make it tough.

I think I'm probably present drop in the locker yeah absolutely we know they keep citing this Jacobson the Massachusetts decision is some sort of you know the reason why this is reasonable for them.

Many, many months after the pandemic hit to keep the people shot down keep churches shut down while you have left is protesters in the streets. The double standard is one problem, but what is your thought on this Jacobson decision continually being cited as an excuse. Is it last week.

I know the judge had cited this in their Temporary Restraining Order decision.

One of that.

What is your take on that particular decision being used here that is really not on point because back then. First of all, the First Amendment had not even yet been interpreted to apply to the state okay so at the time the argument that was being raised with a Fifth Amendment challenge life, liberty, due process and the challenge related to a an argument that an individual says I shouldn't have to be vaccinated. We shouldn't there should be no forced vaccinations. And in that case, which I think is still a horrible decision basically said no you don't have a constitutional right to not be vaccinated, under the circumstances and that case was was not good for for anybody. However, it was before the.

The person that was being applied and it was frankly not even argued in in here were talking about the free exercise of religion that has clearly been interpreted to apply to the states, not just something that applies to federal government action in place to state action as well and so will hold different arguments.

Jacobson is really not on point and it it's different. Yeah it is. Now what is this decision by the judge pertaining to holding Pastor McCoy in contempt and now I know another hearing will be held. But what is your take on the pastor himself being potentially held in contempt for going ahead with his worship services, you know, as I lay wrote in the press release. Actually, a unit that has a ring of communist inquisition. It it it is one of the things where you know thick, the county wants to tear down the church, effectively coming there if I can China how we see over there where if there's a building with a cross on it. The Chinese government coming in saying we want work wherein it take the cross down in order to tear the building down it. It's crazy that here we are, we might have these buildings and and it's effectively somewhat the same.

And they're saying, well, you can't use your building and we as the government can prevent you from using your building and and then on top of it will take the pastor we can sanction him we can pummel punish him criminally with fines or even put him in jail now that is not the America I know, especially in light of the fact that were not dealing with some situation where you know you have it as as they called us here in California 25 million people would be infected and 2 million people die… That was the basis of the initial orders. That's not happened right at what point do you go to the First Amendment and say people has the right to freedom of religion, but they also have the right, it would seem to assembly peaceable assembly because when you look at what people know already about Cova. 19 were about 56 months into this pandemic. People can stay home if they want to if they're vulnerable, but for those who are healthy are those who might have already recovered from COBIT. 19. What is the justification this many months in for having such draconian shutdowns when as you said, the death rate is really minuscule. You know it is that there is no justification pointed out pointed out yesterday to the court that the likelihood of dying from COBIT.

19. Even if you're over 65 years old. Even if you are have underlying health conditions, the likelihood of dying from code 19 is still less then the likelihood of dying from a knee replacement. One and 200 people die from a knee replacement. Are we going to ban elective surgeries now because there are many elective surgeries that have far greater mortality rates than this COBIT infection and so the truth has to be has to be presented has to get out there and were asking for a trial on the merits were asking to be able to present expert witnesses who are going to come in and are going to argue and aunt and present the truth. The date of the facts to show that there is no justification for this shutdown to the degree that they have done so and there's far less restrictive means that can be used to try to prevent this spread of covert, 19 so I think that the there's no justification and Lord willing were to get that opportunity. That's good to do.

Imagine that will be something you can do at the hearing regarding the contempt charge or or subsequent hearings or how do you think the process will go yeah it won't be at the contempt hearing on the 28th. There is argument with regard to a preliminary injunction so the counties sought a preliminary injunction to basically extend their Temporary Restraining Order and they wanted to be extended indefinitely and that is where we are going to be presenting declarations with expert witnesses, and I'm going to be asking that the court allow verbal testimony so that I can cross-examine their expert witnesses so that I can cross-examine the director of public health for the County of Ventura, and even the state of California should go there.

I believe that we should have the right to cross-examine these people who are making these rules and show the error in their in their belief the air – and it favorably something to even believe in doing for political reasons. That's great.

I mean this is such an important battle. Pastor McCoy, as I understand it, has said he'll continue to keep the church open, is that right I don't know what he said because I've not listened to the interview, sir. Yeah well it will be interesting to see. He's been very, very strong. Up to this point in just a note from the time that he resigned for the city Council saying I'm going forward with this.

He's been very strong on this whole issue you talk a little bit if you would in this last minute hear Robert what people need to understand about the importance of this battle in asserting churches constitutional rights will be First Amendment right side of religion is the first liberty is the liberty that our founding fathers looked up and said this is the first and most important liberty that we have. There are many different types of liberties right and and this is the first impression of primary importance. Yet, this is one that is you know significantly being attacked today. Under these 10 restrictions and you know I was in China about three years ago, I met with the underground church like I came to heaven clear understanding of what was going on over there. They were so concerned about whether somebody worship what they really didn't like it, it is people coming together who had common ideas and most people are Christians in favor of the communist regime and so they don't like them coming together and they did everything they could to prevent them from coming together and I'm afraid that's the same type of thing were seen here in California well will keep a close eye on what's been going on Robert Tyler Attorney for Pastor McCoy. Thank you so much Robert for being with us. We really appreciate your work and thanks again for being here what you think you are right you assume will be right back on Jennifer today. This archived broadcast of Janet met for today is brought to you by liberty, health, share liberty, health share is a nonprofit healthcare sharing ministry that allows you to control and manage your own healthcare and choose any doctor or hospital in the nation. If your freedom loving American looking for contract free healthcare call now 855-585-4237 or go to liberty, health share.org/GMT for more information liberty health chair.org/GMT effort and here's your host Joe.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation the old has passed away. Behold, the new has come. I love that verse second Corinthians 517 this is what God tells us it's great news.

But the problem is many of us find it difficult to articulate, or even to fully understand what it really means to be in Christ, and that can impact our understanding of who we are as Christians. That's why Ephesians chapters 1 through three or so encouraging and my next guest is going to help us understand what it means to be in Christ, Jamie, now Chip Ingram teaching pastor and CEO of living on the edge to talk about his book discover your true self, how to silence the lies of your past and actually experience who God says you are that says it all. Chip, it's great to have you here. How are you.

Thank you. Great to be with. Thank you confusion do you think Christians have about what it means to be in Christ. I don't mean this is critically Mike now but I think in general were pretty clueless. I think it unconscious. But, I think. This here's all the things I need to do and I need to pray for long read the Bible for long to activities one, two and three and I think we live for God's approval functionally rather than from God's approval and of love and this was a complete life changer for me and my wife and as a result a lot of other people I high for that first category for many, many, many years now what you think was the source of your own confusion about it and how have you worked your way through it as you especially as you preach through Ephesians yeah I you know I think coming to grips with you. Amazing how theology really is important, and we all have these mirrors and we have mirrors a family of origin that say your love and accept that or you belong. If you do the certain things or if you perform a certain why you and our parents are human or human that I think we have a culture that screams you know advertisement is built around. I'm going to tell you something that you are not okay until you have whiter teeth drivers, car, or your here's that color or you get to go to that concert or your kids get to that school. Or, you know you're very athletic, so I think we we live in a world of these mirrors that tell us to be acceptable to be value to be loved. Here's all the condition and in the crazy thing is that J's and if I think that's what makes it so challenging and then God gives us the mirror of his word and in Ephesians it says every spiritual blessing. He said before you did anything I wanted you I love you and I had thought that you went to my family with all the rights and all the privileges I lavish my love on you.

I paid a big price for you.

I think you figure really valuable like I sealed you with my spirit, your safe. And I think it's taking the kind of big theological words that are true, and then translating them to the huge emotional needs of how do you overcome the rejection, fear and shame and guilt which are really just the symptoms of I don't measure up. I'm not doing well.

I'm unacceptable. So that is been studying that in it for me.

It was trying hard to believe that doesn't work, you have to renew your mind and in the book. As you know I talk about these cards where we would write out my wife and I did the lies that we believe this you know you're only acceptable if people like you. You're only acceptable if you perform well work hard and that people are successful. Blah blah blah and so it was that a point of crisis with us where we were very committed to the Lord.

We were in seminary at the time and were having major, major marriage problems because we both came from alcoholic families and we just had a very godly pastor counselor who helped us realize how we Saul ourselves was the world's view, as opposed to what God says about us and we weep with those little cards for two years. If you can imagine. We sat on the couch before I went to work and we read them out loud and then put them on her bed stand and we begin over time to really believe were love to hear yeah yeah the shame of our past that have to find that's encouraging for people because you walk through all of that. So anybody who is struggling with it now can understand your pastor who, speaking from experience, it isn't just theology coming forward from Ephesians 1 through three kind of on an intellectual level but you walk this road and you know it's interesting when you're talking about that chip. It strikes me that when people come with this premise that I'm only good enough… If I do this or if I look like this are what have you. Jesus is the one who said I've not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. I was thinking of that verse, Luke 532 when you were saying that God is not like man and how much is that driven home when were reading that wonderful section of Ephesians that God does not look upon you the way that man looks upon you, and that's a game changer. I would think for a lot of people. I think it is. And I think it's one of those where I do believe many many many many people and listening to you and what me right now intellectually believe that.

But if you look at their behavior. When I look at my behavior. I believed all that quote intellectually, but I think it's it wasn't until I paired it with the kind of behaviors that were tripping the what I did in the book was I. I, like play spiritual jeopardy. You know the one my favorite things I like to watch Ellen jeopardy. As you know they give you the answer with the question.

The answer is that you're wanted.

What's the question, how do you overcome rejection. The answer is you are valuable, infinitely valuable what what what was the question how do I overcome feeling insignificant and work with you. The answer is your secure your safe. You're in Christ of the question is how overcome the fears that dominate my life and so I did a short chapter on rejection and insignificance in fear and shame and guilt and purposelessness to set up. This is where were living. And then I flipped it and said okay now this is what God says is the answer to that. And then at the end of every chapter. I took those same cards that we reviewed and I put them in a way where people could actually practically start the process, not just I don't want to read the book going to try really hard to believe what's true, I wanted to give them a tool where you something I'm going to the man thinks in his heart, so you become the mind set on the flesh is that the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace.

I wanted people to start a journey to renew their mind and begin to believe if I watch my wife go from someone who was beautiful, smart, and godly, but looked in the mirror and thought she was completely unlovable and a disaster to someone. It was like a flower blooming over the years, she had the worst self-concept of anyone I'd ever met and it is. It is amazing what can happen. Then I saw her sit with my daughter during those formative years and go through these cards in these truth so you are heart is really help people believe what's already true of us is so liberating. Will is and that's really where the rubber meets the road is when you can internalize the truth that you already know in your head and you had mentioned ship this section that you have in the book on the lie rejection and the truth that you are wanted and you are ready reference that said that the beginning parts of Ephesians chapter 1 where Neil Paul talks about. He chose us in him before the foundation of the world and in love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ. How do you go from reading this to believing it to internalizing it well. I would say is the book of my best shot at how to do that. But in in in brief, getting honest enough with yourself or you recognize I'm believing from life, because we all have great levels of denial and, and, looking at while I wonder what's behind me pleasing people. I wonder why I feel so nervous and anxious around people that are powerful or I wonder why I feel so compulsive that I have to my house have to be perfect or everything have to be perfect or may we all have enough issues right that I mean would lease with them) or are are made shortly. Forgive the folders that we know is I think the first thing is pausing and saying okay there's lies behind that there's there's lies behind my addictions, my struggles, my fears, my anxiety and then you identify what those are in and then I think the next thing is to say okay I Lord you have now. Permission to work in my life energy that we spend trying to cover up things trying to mask where we struggle is in ordinate and I got got I give you permission to sell. I want to I recognize a lie and then one I wanted to is I want to focus his mind on the truth.

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That's 855402 Beatty 855-402-2229 or there's a pre-born banner to click@janetmyfor.com you're listening to Janet Mefford today, and though you're welcome back great to have you with us and great to have with us Chip Ingram teaching pastor and CEO of living on the edge. His book is called discover your true self, how to silence the lies of your past and actually experience who God says you are. Who are we in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 1 through three is the passage that Chip uses to base this book on and and what a great section of Scripture were talking about Chip. We were talking about one of the things that you mentioned in the book the lie of rejection that people tend to believe, but we know from God's word that we are wanted and you said you really have to recognize if you're in that position that there are lies behind believing that you have to figure out what they are and then make the move to say Lord work in my life. What kind of difference does it make. Have you seen like in your own marriage as you were discussing when you really do grasp the truth that God loves you and God wants you and that God has expressed this to you. What difference does that end up making when you really do grasp that truth.

What I'd covered. When I began to realize that I'm already loved my workaholism, my people pleasing those things that I mean I would hear the phone ring as a young pastor and I would jump up like you to solve this right now and my wife was a withdrawer and it was like you.

Why should I even try that or no one would ever want me here. I don't have anything significant to say and as she began to renew her mind and she began to realize what a second God has uniquely made me going to use the hurt and even the pains in my pad.

I'm a trophy of his grace. And so what I what I saw was a woman who bloomed who actually ended up teaching other women, the things she was learning and I would put some of these things on cards that we just can't keep them in stock because what we find is people are just so desperate when it comes to this area, but they don't have a practical way in renewing your mind. You don't be conformed to this world but be transformed if not, doesn't say by trying super hard and you know telling yourself you never do that again if by the renewing of your mind, and as we renewed our minds then you experience a good couple.

Perfect will of God. So it's been a journey I don't want people to hear. You know there's a magic pill or I'm gonna review few cards and read a few chapters and overnight.

Everything changes but I just stuff counseled so many people over the years, and as you. In other words, it you go into training. It is like to never run a marathon.

You walk in you jog that while you your run a mile and then little by little, I will tell you it's just been the most liberating, exciting thing to see in our life and in the people around. Cool that's really needs and and that's great to hear because it really gives people hope some other lies that you talk about Chip the lie of insignificance. The lie of fear. Stopping on this one. The lie of fear there.

There's a lot of fear, especially right now and there's a lot of fear of people and circumstances in the future and all of this. I think many people feel very insecure what you have to say to those people about the need to understand that you are secure. As a Christian you know God that I'm not giving you a spirit of fear in our in love and it's interesting sound mind or some translations will say self-discipline if it's a pretty hard word to translate that into the mind where your emotions are not dictating how you respond to things and in Ephesians 1. He says that he has sealed with his spirit. As a down payment for our future hope. In other words God for all that I promised to you. Here's the guarantee. My spirit sealed you for me. You're safe with me. Nothing and no one can pull you out of my hands, height, nor depth, or length, or principalities or powers. Nothing can separate you from my love and I think when we begin to believe that not just acknowledge that that's probably true for someone somewhere and that's true not because you do something, or if you do something that's true because you're united with Christ. Janet make this as were helpful. Often when I teach on being united with Christ, people can't get it so what what I do I put a big like a tank of water and then I take a big heavy bolt, the people can see and I say I drop it in the water and it sinks to the bottom and I know I wanted think I want no gravity is really heavy to take a little wooden block and I and I put it on the water and float toward what is upload it will go bump it's of a different nature to different substance and I think a big thick rubber band that I take another bolt and I wrap it around the bolt and the piece of wood and then I put it in this big fish thing and they clean up the camera Pro close and it floats and I say to people. So why is it floating they go well because it's attached to the wood. In other words what people if you could craft when he says we've died with Christ, we been rife with Christ. What it means is the properties and the nature of Jesus are now yours. God sees you the lens through his righteousness, and what's true of him is now true of you. And when we can grasp that you are. You don't have to earn it. You don't have to prove it. You you are safe, that changes everything. And this book is about helping people grasp that in what God says is when you're a part of my family. You can choose to fear, but you have to. You can choose to respond to people's rejection because you know you didn't grow up with right side of the neighborhood or your different color than someone else, or because you think differently than them.

You can choose to be afraid. But how can you be afraid when you're secure in my arms I made you I love you just what you are and will talk to ourselves, thousands of times a day changing what we say to ourselves, and informing that with what the Spirit says about and I just it changes that's how world spiritual growth occurs, that's true.

I love that illustration I think that's perfect and and there is something to seen it like that. That really helps you wrap your mind around it.

I think that's a tremendous way of illustrating that point, it is something else that you discuss in the book tip is the lie of shame but also the lie of gilts.

Now a lot of Christians might immediately say, but we are guilty. That's why we need Christ. Yet there is something that we sometimes experience in the way of false guilt. This is the passage that you're talking about in Ephesians 21 through 10 with that famous you want a verse that I memorized when I was about seven years old. For by grace you been saved through faith and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God not as a result of work, so that no one may boast. Talk about this lie of guilt out there is a sense in which we absolutely are guilty, and then we are in Christ, we are no longer guilty how you work through that passage and explain that concept to people will after chapter 1 hold a you are in Christ and in the middle of chapter 1 he prayed that they could actually grasp and understand all of its two of them in any annexes big contrast and then he says, but don't forget where you came from, you know, this is who you were apart from Christ, you were dead in your sins hostile to God, etc. and then there's this huge contrast but God, who is rich in mercy and grace and love you for gave. He rescued it, and then he talked about will how do you receive that is the verse that you just quoted that leads to your future for you are his workmanship, literally the word is your his poem yours masterpiece created in Christ Jesus unto literally a good work. These prepared for you from the foundations of the earth. And so I think we understand that we were justly guilty before God and when we trust Christ, God has removed and covered our guilt by the work of Christ is spirit comes into our life were transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light would become his children and so our legal guilt before God is removed and not that's half of it.

The second half is then very righteousness of Christ is imputed since again I think people of these are big theological words but in a practical way, and please you know if if people could visualize you know maybe a big computer screen on the sky and their name comes up on the computer screen and on the left side is their name and hundred everything they've ever done. And on the right side. You know there's a column in it Jesus and all of his righteousness when you trusted Christ. God went over with the cursor and he pushed delete all your sins are removed and then he said click and drag and he pulled the very righteousness of Jesus over to your side and then lifted the little cursor and then she is right.

And now he says this is who you really are.

So when you mess up because we still choose to do wrong things you do have real guilt and you need restored fellowship say say Lord all point.

When I said that I was no boy, that was all about me or when I lie just to cover up what I did and the Holy Spirit makes that clear. And so, yes, we confess that, but what I'm talking about in the book is.

Some people feel guilty because they didn't do what everyone wanted him to do. Some people feel guilty because it's not getting to know God. But how many chapters do I need to read it.

If I only read two chapters instead of four chapters.

I must be a bad person.

All guilt that is rooted not in who you actually are. That is so beautiful and it so well said. And you can read more about it in Chip Ingram's book discover your true self, so good to have you on the program ship.

Keep up the good work and God bless you.

Thanks so very much.

You're welcome. God bless you and thank you for joining us and Janet met for today. We will see you next


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