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Janet - Mefferd - Today - David Goetsch (Anti-Christian Bias) Pat Williams(Character)

Janet Mefferd / Janet Mefferd
The Truth Network Radio
September 4, 2020 5:30 am

Janet - Mefferd - Today - David Goetsch (Anti-Christian Bias) Pat Williams(Character)

Janet Mefferd / Janet Mefferd

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September 4, 2020 5:30 am

How can Christians deal with anti-Christian hostility or even forms of persecution in the workplace? Dr. David Goetsch, emeritus vice president and professor of business at Northwest Florida State College, joins me to talk about it and his book, "Christians on the Job: Winning at Work without Compromising Your Faith." Plus: The importance of character with Pat Williams, senior vice president of the NBA's Orlando Magic and author of "Character Carved in Stone." That's next time on Friday's JANET MEFFERD TODAY.

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This archived broadcast of Janet for today is brought to you by Liberty health Liberty health is a nonprofit healthcare sharing ministry that allows you to control and manage your own healthcare and choose any doctor or hospital in the nation. If your freedom loving American looking for contract free healthcare call now 855-585-4237 or go to liberty for more information liberty is our confidence is in Christ alone wise as serpents and innocent as doves. How does that verse apply though when we go to work and unfortunately increasingly face anti-Christian hostility or even some forms of persecution on the job. What is the wisest way to respond and how do we respond locally or in a talk about that today with Dr. David get to is emeritus VP and professor of business at Northwest Florida State College where he has served for 43 years. He also maintains a biblical counseling ministry focusing on issues Christians face in the workplace and today we will be talking about his book Christians on the job winning at work without compromising your faith Dr. gadgets great to have you here.

Thank you so much for being with us. Your program will thank you. You see the overall picture of what it means to be a Christian in the workplace today.

What kinds of issues do you see Christians facing on the job just for being Christians will work to put it mildly to know everything that happened to eventually find a way to workplace and you know about all the happening in society work you have the age-old problems of temptation and peer pressure and that human desire to fit in American caused problems for Christians because of always been there we've always had beer with that, but anymore were seeing more and more instances of the Christian by political correctness and persecution. Just two weeks ago, I talked with a person who was told he could no longer drive his car to work because it is one of our Florida right to life. We still wish to explore the pro-life Bible stories told you no longer drive that corridor work that's crazy just for having a license plate that somebody doesn't agree with you can't drive or having a pro-life Christian license plate is told he could not drive on the campus of wording measures liberty that is incredible what was his response to it. Just out of curiosity, how did he answer that that directive you can't drive your car here, but I directed your last chapter in my book, which is what you do when anti-Christian by rejection and that type of cross with a lot of persecution which I feel that and I directed him to live in freedom over what you need to stand up and you need to stand up when you write an alliance to help your chronically last for freedom went about 90% of these types of things are done by people who don't think through them. I think I can simply board Christian. And so I told him right after you turn the call. A lot of good words, the good words. I think that's well said.

But you know what we are seeing this changes you mentioned before, there have always been struggles on the job of various types, but we are now seeing a growing anti-Christian hostility as the culture changes do you see a particular moment in time when the fight became worse for Christians or when the situation became worse for Christians on the job and it was kind of a turning point will I'm afraid. What we all my generation.

I am a child of my formative years in the 60s and 60s is when it all started with the folder percent of us just been creeping and creeping and creeping up on us. But yes, I feel like all probably the first election of Barack Obama was where I started reading more and more people coming to me with not the old-fashioned temptation, peer pressure and the kind of problem but anti-Christian political correctness and almost here now you're 10 times a month.

You have freedom of religion where I work… The Christian religion rights rights. I know that is how it's becoming if you were a Muslim and you are right. He job you get the red carpet rolled out for you but if you're Christian you know your third class IVth class citizen and and it's funny because look at the history and the roots and the foundation of this country. The Bible is the very foundation of this country, even though not every single founder was a Bible believing Christian. This is been a unit of the most part, a Christian country, culturally at least. How in the world is it that the mindset has changed and said there is one religion that we can treat differently well under two different groups of people.

Now we have people who would rather America will see it succeed under someone who believes Christian. One of the one about points I make in my book.

So this is just a spent a lot of time when I'm wearing my business professor said it when I'm wearing my management controls. A lot of businesses who do. I cannot get employees who were almost double diligent they are starting to me.

I can't get employees who believe the Christian work ethic set forth in Scripture and yet they don't want to call it that. But those are the values that still make you succeed in the workplace and so I make the point in my book.

Loosen use to do you who you are and what you believe a career is a marathon not a sprint. You might get beat up in the short run for your beliefs. But in the long run, you prevail. I know I do look a spent 43 years. So for higher education in Congress is probably not a place in the world more friendly to Christianity.

Yeah I hear you. Having spent many years in newsrooms so I'm with you on that. I put the newsrooms of America right up there and that in a category, but it's true what are you seeing more conflicts would you say between the same bosses and Christian employees or between non-Christian employees and Christian employees. In other words, is it between employees that that there is more conflict or is it the boss who's more upset with the Christian who is the employee I'm sitting and what's happening you people know when they're doing wrong is like misery loves company. People who are doing wrong.

What company to if you're the only person doing right and they're doing wrong, under a lot of pressure and I'm seeing that all the time or the stories are told in my book of the people who worked at the three different it was the same by three different branches and go out to every Friday and one of them came up with the idea of look what we call this a business launch and claim that we were entertaining potential clients.

That way we can claim as a business lunch and get reimbursed by our bank for our meals, and 7.4 and only one of the people there should know this is not right that feeling.

This is not a business launch were here as friends having fun and so she wouldn't do it and then went ahead without her interest exclude group and several months later she got excellent email coming email through all the bank had been caught and fired for seriously skinny while the scenario would you have advised her to go to the boss and to reveal the scheme or to just keep her mouth shut.

How would you handle that. What I talk what I have told her to do she didn't know what to do and she let her down for a while but she talked to me about told what to do something happen but when I advised her to do with those three people and give them a certain number of certain amount of time served to stop or she would have to go to the Boston yeah that's right thing to do. Sure I'm in Christ not to do wrong, but doesn't expect us to about wrongdoing is to stand up to sin wherever it exists. Yes that's right and that's such a difficult place to be. And because you just want to go to work and get along with people and do your job and receive your paycheck and I have heard so many stories just like you have not, as many Shirley pet yeah just anecdotes of of Christians who say I'm just trying to get my job done and then I'm in the situation and sometimes I'm not really sure how I ought to handle it but there is a lot more to talk about working to come back. Dr. David gets my guest's book is called Christians on the job stay with us will come back on Janet hi this is Kirk Cameron and I am honored to be partnering with the ministry of pre-born to help moms choose life actor Kirk Cameron supports pre-born. My four oldest children were adopted. That is because of caring and compassionate people who help those young mothers choose life. My wife is an adopted child and her birth mother chose life for her if it weren't for those caring individuals that help those young moms of value. The sacredness of life. I wouldn't have my wife I wouldn't have my four adopted children and the true natural born children that we have wouldn't exist either.

My whole family is here because of people that are involved with ministries like freeborn freeborn funds pregnancy centers across the nation so they can offer free ultrasounds to women in crisis pregnancies. Ultrasound is a game changer because when abortion minded women actually see their babies in their wombs for themselves. 80% of the time they choose life, would you please join us at Janet map are today to support the ministry of pre-born for $140 you can provide five free ultrasounds to women in crisis pregnancies. One ultrasound is just $28 and every gift helps to donate please call now 855402, baby. That's 855-402-2229 or there's a banner to

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Please call now with your gift. 855402, baby. That's 855402 baby 855-402-2229 or there's a banner to your listening pleasure here and glad to be talking with Dr. David gets to his emeritus vice president and professor of business at Northwest Florida State College. His book is called Christians on the job when he network without compromising your faith.

This is such a practical topic it really applies to all of us to some degree, Dr. Getz, and I'm glad that you've written this when were talking about basic approach going into work. Living your life as a disciple of Jesus Christ. Letting your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in heaven. What is a good starting place if you have someone is listening. Who says I'm about to start a new job. I want to be faithful to Christ on the job, but I also want to be a good employee. What are some basic tips you would give that Christian going into a new job some good ground rules for being a Christian in the workplace. The booklet is doing better but let me just take one of them always feel Christians approach your job as a ministry. Think of yourself as a missionary lit. If ample sermon that we are not hired to go into our jobs and preach sermons all day and were not to pull people away from the work there being credited and sermonized to read the Bible to break some before-and-after but during work we need to set an example of the Christian work ethic. We need to be honest we we need to treat people in a Christlike manner where their customers or their fellow employees. We need to show people in the workplace who may not know Christ and notice when we showed him a better way and we do that by example and always bring up a famous quote from Charles Spurgeon that all Christians are either missionaries or imposters and he did mean we all have to run to poor health. You are a missionary where God plants you and you're a child of God. So they're all to be a family reason. What's your that's excellent and you point out something very important which is you're not hired to preach sermons all day and I don't know a lot of Christians who would do that but that sometimes will, can I witness to somebody on the job. Generally speaking, not while you're working right, not not doing as vandalism when you're being paid to do your job, maybe lunch hour after work something like that. But what would you say to a Christian about that Christian work at your job the best you can be the best value back to the person is employing you because that is the best example going to deceive a need to see the people who are children of God do a good job when they are paid to do the job. The job done rock to get it on time but depend on relied on all of those things that that example many calls these people to say I like to know more about why you work the way you do right after work was you and I stop somewhere and talk or lunch let's you and I have a talk. I'll break out the Bible. In fact, what I believe and why I believe that's excellent what you're saying is so important that we are to be good employees.

I mean losing as I have such strong feelings as you do about the Christian work ethic and how important it is to be on time, do the job you were hired to do. Don't waste time. If you don't have something to do. This is something instilled in me by the parents. Of course if you have downtime at work asked what can I do, don't just sit there and waste the company's time these things that are kind of fading away. You're not seen as much of this. It seems as you did years ago where people are naturally all doing that you can really stand out by having that kind of work ethic these days we used to be what I call. In America we were poor, hungry, poor, hungry and now it's almost as if were lazy and complacent and I'm even sitting in Christian families that are not passing on the Christian work ethic. I'm even seeing churches that are not in this book, you can look at the chapter their actual instructional material at the end of your chapter like review questions and discussion questions discussion cases so that Sunday schools and Bible studies and prayer breakfast can use it actually teach that Christian work effort because the church is got to get engaged in this if we don't own the Christian work ethic is going to exactly that's excellent. Your subtitle of your book when he network without compromising your faith. Let's talk a little bit about the compromising angle because you are increasingly seen situations at work. As you mentioned and talk about in the book where to do what you're told, would mean that you're not doing the Christlike thing. Whether it's cheating or will going along with a certain practice. How do you help Christians discern how to handle situations like that. For example, if your overall going to cheat the bank and working to put this on their tab even though it's not really a business lunch.

Generally speaking, what would you say to Christians about how to handle awkward situations especially if you feel like your job is in jeopardy if you don't go along with it.

Chapter 5 in our book and called be why when translating Scripture into action. The problem, you and I go to church on Sunday.

If we see a brother or sister doing something they shouldn't.

We can approach them in a certain way because we all have the Bible is the center of your that's got to be our guide Christian beliefs and values. But if you're dealing with people who reject the Bible or don't know what you have to find what I call a workplace appropriate way to approach them and here's here's what I have found over the years often the personal self interests of the people who were doing wrong with our Christian beliefs. Here's what I mean you can say to somebody, okay, I understand what you want to do that little extra money, but what happens when you're called who's going to be blind when you're called to keep the whole file of articles for my students in college and for my client of people whose careers have crashed and burned because they did the wrong thing thinking they wouldn't get all throughout the book I give examples of this were you go into your boss and he sees one you to file a false report to make the sales would better something. The site will let me show you what happened here in this article. Can I get you. It's going to be worse for us when this is found out it always found out, so no matter whether they believe in?

I do believe in their own self-interest. And when you can point out what is that their self interests are vulnerable because of this shortsighted decision.

Everybody thinks it'll turn around, that's a really good idea like that a lot knelt well for the person who really is experiencing a form of persecution on the job and and a lot of us know. Examples of that or have lived it out. How do you help someone discern when to fight back and when to leave and just walk away or to stay and fight any it's difficult at times to know whether or not to mount the fights or whether or not it's just better off by finding a job and just forget about it. How do you make your way through those sorts of circumstances ordered about that right after the fact. I got what I do in those cases is sit and talk with him and that's when they need some help.

That's when they need some counseling help and sometimes even that's not enough. Got a lot of experience in the private sector, the military higher education is a Christian County. Sometimes I can't help but that's when I put them in touch personally with the PDF because those that have a good feel for you can win this thing. Or you won't win this fight will happen if you win it, and here's what will happen if you don't and that's why chapter 12 of this book would look if if it comes down to actually persecution.

Be very careful about how you handle it. I do say in the book.

Always make quitting your job and going somewhere else your your last resort option because if that stuff is going on with work what they need more than anything Christian example.

But if your livelihood is put it on alterable I got contacted you charge that will help you decide what you should just leave and then file suit or just leave. Is there one particular story of persecution in the workplace that stands out to you among all the stories you've heard over the years. Yeah, it was there was particular manager was lapsed Christian. It had been a Christian and he was excommunicated by his church for things that communicated so he went the other when he became just a jealous anti-Christian and when that happened. He went around to people in this book he went around the people who had the 23rd Psalm in their office and things like redo frame Bible verses and things like that made them take him down. He might get rid of their Bibles stop all prayer breakfasts that were happening on site before before, but they were poised for prayer breakfast Bible studies at large. Cut out all of that was just about saw just about as bad as it could be in dealing with people truly truly giving the Christians the hardest assignments and then writing them hard and not giving them the support they needed and so forth. And eventually they didn't have to do spam together and bring my wallet as they should.

As they sense you know you would love to think that that when you walk into a workplace situation.

Everybody's going to be stare at. But the truth is people are human and you do find situations like that, everything you've been talking about.

As we've been discussing this. I'm thinking that reminds me of something that I saw her went through are some when I talked to went to the same's sort of thing, but I think it's important issue mentioned to set a first Corinthians 13 example at work.

I thought that was really good advice as well. Also, you had a really good program and one of the things that are about political correctness in the workplace and it's becoming worse and worse. It is always better to be quickly correct and politically correct people who are on the receiving end of politically correct platitudes are not stupid I know when people are just using the right terms and citing the supposed rights.

I really don't ask but they also know when somebody showing Christian love is all you very good talk today to get stinky so much.

Dr. gets Christians on the job is this archived broadcast of Janet for today is brought to you by Liberty health liberty health areas and nonprofit healthcare sharing ministry that allows you to control and manage your own healthcare and choose any doctor or hospital in the nation.

If your freedom loving American looking for contract free healthcare call now 855-585-4237 or go to liberty for more information liberty effort. Today, 21, said it is curious that physical courage should be so common in the world, and moral courage so rare I think that's true and it's why we all need heroes to look to who embody moral courage born out of moral character. My next guest is done just that Pat Williams is senior vice president of the NBA's Orlando Magic. He has more than 50 years of professional sports experience and has written more than 100 bucks. His latest is called character carved in stone. The 12 core virtues of West Point that build leaders and produce success and Pat is just great to have you with us. How are you well and catch up with you. I look forward to meet see what you talk about speaking at West Point. I just enjoyed the whole book is great and I enjoyed going through your explanation of what it was like to be in the presence of those benches near the battle Memorial that have those 12 character traits carved there in stone. Can you tell people a little bit about that and what was the impetus for the book and kind of inspired you to put these stories together invited to go to the Army men and women and their coaches well after the mentor of the West Point which is a very powerful experience. By the way we ended up in a little park called tropic pointed slightly elevated and it looks down on the historic Hudson River going through the park I noticed a bench. Well I guess every park in the world but I noticed there were more benches and I counted all of them. There were 12 ventures which seem like a lot of benches for a fairly small part but for some reason I went over and looked at one of the benches up and I noticed had been carved into the end of that bench word like courage and on the other end of the bench as well not prompted me to go explore the other benches and I noticed that the end of each bench. There was a different one carved into that bench on both ends. Words like dedication and determination, integrity and loyalty and trust words figure Janet at that point to be a back story. Well, sure enough, there was learned at the class of 1935 at West Point class. You donated those benches and their committee had selected those words as one, though, should be part of character quality that whoever came through the place and I thought immediately, but this is a well-kept secret.

I didn't know about this. I don't think many people and so we talk to the published book your what we take each word and do a chapter on that particular word and then see if we can find a West Point graduate who best models that word well the publisher like the idea that we put it together. Yes, might be the Duke basketball coach was also West Point grad if he would do the forward that he graciously agreed to do that and that's how this book came about.

Yeah well you even include Mike Stefanski in the character trait of responsibility so let's start with how did he come to embody responsibility. Would you say Mike tells the story when he was it was a cold January uniform on neatly pressed his shoes were brilliant across the campus with his roommate somebody stepped in a puddle of crook that might've been a roommate and splashed all over his beautiful and Mike had a decision to make one rush back to my room and get the shoes fixed on why try and get to my next class. Well wouldn't you know what he was stopped at that point by an officer about the and Mike walking across the campus. What at that point the officer interrupted and said at one point when you are challenged by an officer you at one of her Mike is now on 70s would tell you that was a turning point experiencing his life as an 18-year-old learned that there are no excuses and he adopted the philosophy. This was done well.

This was done poorly but in either case, I am responsible so that that was one of the reasons we put Mike in there with that particular quality. While that's a great, great aunt because you look at what's going on in our culture now and there seems to be a real trend of people not wanting to say no excuses not wanting to say.

I take responsibility for what I did in fact that that seems to be something a lot of people are lamenting is gone, or at least is on the way out. This concept of personal responsibility. Great agreement.

In particular among the leaders. Things are about all we we learn all about it. If the decision doesn't go well well and often cases sense of incident amnesia is it's true. I have no memory of that and then it's important that a battery of spin doctors to get you out of the mess you're in because you didn't want any part of this because it didn't work out but I think great leaders step up and take that approach.

I am responsible. I'm in charge here that I take full responsibility inculcates and I want to get into some of these other stories as well, especially when we get back from the brink that you inculcate a sense of responsibility in the next generation. West Point does it so well that for those who are not in the military and don't go to West Point. We all need to develop that character trait well to talk about all the characters charged at home starts with both parents.

First of all, they must model it must model characters so that young people grow up seeing it.

Secondly, we need to teach it. Note none of us come into this world with the character qualities carved in stone. We don't all come into this world.

You know with the sinful nature recorded in the Scriptures, and we need to teach character, parents and grandparents and teachers and coaches and youth workers which needs to be caught as well as part yes it does. I think it's so important what you're saying. If you are seen it modeled in your parents and your being taught good character, then even when you're in a situation in culture where good character is not common and it's not been exhibited.

You still have to behave that way and I know that's one of the traits that also comes out.

I think a lot of the stories in your book, you do the right thing even when everyone around you isn't necessarily doing the right thing here with people that were featured in his book the West Point grad think that's what happened, they were not concerned about public good.

They were not concerned about feathering their own best they did what was right and that's why that's why the remembered today to a large degree because of the way they live their lives in the way the holding that character into their lives. And when that should be good lesson to all of us afterward after we left this earth. We want our children and grandchildren. People have high regard for the fact that we have courage and we did have responsibility, integrity and dignity and discipline absolutely absolutely well working to go to a break here in a couple of seconds, but when we come back. I want to get into some of the stories as you mentioned Pat that you highlight a lot of these West Point grads who were embodying these character traits that we should all aspire to have his character carved in stone Pat Williams with us will come back on Janet my for today. After this break. Are you in need of a healthcare program you're unlocking is a member of Liberty house your part of the community that comes together to share their medical expenses. You can sign up throughout the year. With membership starting as early as the following month and there are no contracts or commitments program start as low as $349 per month and there is no network so you can choose your own doctors and hospitals. Liberty health is a nonprofit ministry not insurance so your money goes toward helping other members with their eligible medical expenses and in your time of need.

Other members are there for you to feel good knowing your part of a community of like-minded individuals who understand the importance of people coming together to bear one another's burdens. Find out call now 855-565-2561 855-565-2561. I this is Janet my for it for pre-born Candace talks about finding out she was pregnant. Thankfully, an ultrasound provided by pre-born allowed her to hear her baby's heartbeat sonogram sealed the deal for me my baby was like this tiny little spectrum of hope.

Nice size heart beating on the screen and knowing that there's life growing inside me sonogram changed my life. I went from just Candace to mom to everybody that is given these gifts, you guys are giving more than money. You guys are giving lots. Pre-born has 10 centers that do not have ultrasound machines which you make a leadership gift and sponsor a machine today. These lifesaving machines cost more than most centers can afford your tax-deductible gift of 15000 Dollars Will Pl. a machine in a needy women's center and save countless lives for years to come. To donate, call 855402 baby 855402 baby or there's a banner to here's my guess is Pat Williams, senior vice president of the NBA's Orlando Magic and author of character carved in stone. This is such an important thing for us to hear about the 12 core virtues of West Point that build leaders and produce success. We were talking before the break pad about my chef ski people know that name. Of course Duke's coach and the aspect of responsibility that he learned no excuses and and how West Point really inculcated that in him, but a lot of these other character traits.

I thought it was really interesting to read about Ulysses S Grant the 18th president of the United States, and of course during the American Civil War he led the Union army. What about this trade of compassion because what I think might you let Ulysses S Grant the first character trait that doesn't come to mind is compassion. Although you think about something like strength or dignity.

Something like that. But why choose that character trait a great war went on with what you a lot of a lot of soldiers were killed under his however you study his life truly was a compassionate man cared about his soldiers care deeply about his cared deeply, deeply about his wife cared deeply about the there were such a key part of transportation in those servers. One story, one story Janet saw a soldier unmercifully his horse. Grant stopped and went over to the soldier and just reamed him out about what he was doing with and contributes like an and the reason was the grant a real horseman, just a great love heart for the moles we as we study grant. We really came away saying that this military leader is hero of the Civil War was a compassionate man in every area of his life. Like you said you don't normally think about that famous military man like Ulysses S Grant.

But what is the time in there. If you are a compassionate leader even as a military leader. There may be some people who say how can those two things go together and what difference would compassion make if you are commanding an army.

Let me just put another one. Let's just call it people goals are great leaders and this really is a leadership book. Great leaders have people skills.

Take care. They care about people that are interested in other people have a heart for people. But paper people. I guess what I'm really trying to say is love people and every great leader that I've never studied. That was the case, and in some you didn't think was all that important to tell that story of Richard Nixon. What was in the White House as Pres. Janet once said to me this job is present would be pretty good with people just are not joking, but every job that I've ever read about or been involved with. Janet involves people, not one that I found it doesn't and great leaders understand that they are really chlorine will all focused on working with people. Janet not all people are easy no you can't deal with people with that with this break. You got a building with the fine brought up because they're all different, they all need more personal attention so true leaders understand that they sure do you talk also about Buzz Aldrin, everybody knows Buzz Aldrin, the famous astronaut and you mention this character trait of dedication that you mentioned in this chapter that Buzz Aldrin wouldn't have been an astronaut without his fellow West Point grad Ed White's interesting story. Why is that well I think it's safe to say that we need in our life.

Cheerleaders we need in our lives we need in our lives. Plan something under their and boosting us. Now they want us to succeed. And when we don't succeed there as disappointed as we are and when they do succeed are not jealous when they're not resentful. That's why I think it's important that all areas are life surround ourselves with life answers. Walt Disney made up that word by the way life answers.

Those are people who are rooting for centuries for a certain urging us to live your full potential. Sir White was a guy and Buzz Aldrin still living what I just wrote about them this morning. He's 89 years old and with this the man who was up there on the mood for man. It's hard to imagine that he's an incredible American. Another person that really draws my attention and all of them do bite when you talk about being a people person and having people skills as a leader you talk about another man in the book Gen. Matthew Ridgway under the character trait of loyalty and you mentioned that it was Gen. Ridgway who knew their names. This was kind of the point you're making. This is also sort of a people skill you know anecdote about this general. Why was he important, why do you think this story is such a good one. I learned that on the morning of parachuting behind enemy lines into France with his soldiers.

He was not back in London that he was not out of old, you know, shouting out orders and he parachuted into France with his with his soldiers that for a minute.

Incredible. And that's why his soldiers were catered to love the man and then of course you know when Korea corrupted Harry Truman made the decision to relieve Douglas MacArthur of his duties there. Well guess who stepped in it was Matthew Ridgway. He is a real American hero. Unfortunately all of the average American probably don't know much about them. I hope this book will kind of what kind of revive Gen. Ridgway sent on a well-deserved sponsor.

Can you imagine your peers in the general jumping out of a plane with his soldiers and pulled the parish and Mary is in France, you know, behind enemy lines. That's another by the way, to that's another great trade that I've observed with almost every they are visible and available mother. Not not locked up in an ivory towers were in their hands dirty down there among their people and all involved in whatever's going on in any field, far beyond the military visible and available.

That's what great leaders do and when they start removing themselves. Janet, it's just a matter of time before their leadership responsibilities are really start to clean get points. One of the other stories that really stood out to me was your your mentioned toward the end of the book of Peter when we talk a lot about these figures in history that we admire for great reasons that this was the brave young man who is killed at Marjory Stoneman Douglas high school. People will remember this, he held the door while other students were escaping and he ended up being shot, but it is interesting he was granted posthumous admission to West Point, which is such a neat thing because it's not the case that all the heroes are in the past we have heroes in our own day and he exemplifies that well rarely.

It is about any book but I that most people read that last little piece they're not clear there will be a big lump in your house for sure for sure. Here's this young man who sacrificed his life and even as a youngster he knew what he wanted to do you want to go to West Point and that was that was his biggest goal is biggest dream. Well, he never got to go there because of that horrible season last year in South Florida but the Academy honored.

I'm so glad about that young man you know to be remembered as much as Gen. Eisenhower and Gen. MacArthur, and Mike should shift all those other people write about great points. Yeah, it's your you're right about that. All of these stories are really worth reading. Just a great book character carved in stone Pat Williams with us and so good to talk to Pat, I appreciate the book and very much appreciate your being with us very good. Thanks a lot Pat Williams thanks for being here.

Thank you for joining us hunting for today will see next time

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