Is Russell Brand a born-again Christian?

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. You've got questions, we've got answers. It's time for The Line of Fire with your host, biblical scholar and cultural commentator, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity. Call 866-34-TRUTH to get on The Line of Fire. And now, here's your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Hey friends, welcome to The Line of Fire broadcast. You notice I didn't say the phone lines are open because I'm not taking calls today, but I've got a bunch of excellent questions that I'm going to answer. I think you'll find this edifying, helpful. Friends, my goal is to help equip you to be strong. It's not just to answer abstract questions so we can have more information. And for the most part, that's not why you're asking. You're asking because you're students of the Word, because you're living out your lives before the Lord, because real questions come up in life, in ministry, in study. And you want answers to those, so we want to do our best to provide you with answers. Now, some are questions for me. What's my perspective on a particular issue?

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What does the Word say? And of course, we do our best to lay that out plainly and clearly for you. You can always write to us at AskDrBrown.org. You can write with further questions.

We do our best to answer as well. Okay, here's a question from Clyde. I'm not sure, Doc, but I think you may be into endorsing corporate praying and singing in tongues during worship. Please share your biblical thoughts.

God bless. All right, for sure, for sure, the New Testament through the writings of Paul makes plain that we are not to deliver messages in tongues without an interpreter, right? So, someone thinking about his own journey, commenting about his own spiritual life, that people will follow it or be influenced by it. And maybe as he's on his journey, he's influencing people, whereas he shouldn't be influencing people. I don't mean you shouldn't say a word. This is his life, his journey.

I'm saying the reaction, the following. You know, it's just like when you have a Kanye West who allegedly came to faith a few years ago, or Justin Bieber raised in the gospel in many ways from a certain point in his life, and then church going, and we'll talk about his faith in Jesus. But obviously, whatever journey he's on, it's a journey of still getting established, or it's a journey of still growing.

It's a journey where he's being taught rather than being a teacher. But people very quickly get raised up because they have prominence, and next thing, they're leading others, they're influencing others, and they themselves are still on the journey. That's why we have to be very careful and really pray that whatever God is doing in Russell Brand's life, that it would be deep and genuine, and that ideally, he would have a lot of covering. And when it comes to the faith, we'd really have godly people, godly men and women around him. And ideally, solid spiritual fathers that could speak into his life and help disciple him, not as a celebrity, but as a newborn babe. You could be a pastor of a congregation with 40 people living in a very, very difficult region where winning one convert is like pulling teeth for 10 years. And it's difficult work, there's so much spiritual opposition, but you've been faithful, you've honored the Lord, you really know the Lord, you really know the word, 40 people know your name outside of that, almost nobody knows who you are. You're not on social media, you don't have a platform, but you know the Lord, you have spiritual depth, you have far more to offer in terms of discipling and teaching than a brand new celebrity. So ideally, you want someone that has stature in the world to be discipled in a way where they understand now you're at entry level, now you're at baby level, now you're just coming in. When I was preaching in Finland in the, oh, I guess it was 93, 94, in those years back then, my translator said that he made it a little project to track those famous Finns who got saved, especially athletes, well-known athletes that were heralded and hailed in their nation and they got born again. And Finland is a small country, so you've got a lot of prominence, not a lot of competition with others, a famous actor or someone that would get saved.

And the translator's name was Mati, he began to track what happened to them because each time the same mistake was made. Rather than say, okay, wonderful, you're genuinely born again, let's hide you for a while. So you go on with your career, you go on with your sports, you go on with what you're doing as long as it's not an ungodly profession. You go on with that while we disciple you and then let's get you grounded, let's get you strong. And then when you're ready, then you start to share your testimony more publicly, you start to speak about your faith more publicly.

We don't want you to be a celebrity Christian, we want you to be a baby who now is going to grow into maturity and become solid so that when you have a celebrity again, you can handle it and you can use it for the Lord. So each time he raised concerns, no, no, we're exalting these people. They're brand new, they're new believers, they don't know anything. Don't put them on a tour of going from church to church or network to network sharing their testimony.

They're not ready. And he said every single one that he tracked over the years fell away and backslid. And again, I think of myself as a brand new believer, okay, I'm not Russell Brand in that I was 16 years old, just some unknown kid playing with a band on Long Island, shooting heroin and doing all kinds of other drugs and crazy stuff. So I didn't have life experience, I didn't have life wisdom, I didn't have a large following or anything like that. I loved the Lord while I got saved. God worked radically in my life. I spent hours with the Lord daily in the Word and prayer.

Zell is my faith. I started preaching at 18, but I was still young. There was a lot of growing. If instantly I had been exposed to now sharing with millions of people, I wouldn't have been ready and I would have made a lot of missteps before I got to the right place and maybe the notoriety would have gotten to my head. You say, ah, but that's the difference. That someone like a Russell Brand or a famous athlete who gets saved, they're already used to the notoriety. They're already used to the fame. They're already used to the platform. True, but it's now a different dynamic spiritually. It's now something different because they are new in the Lord now exposed as the voice, as the one who has something to say. So this is a really good time. Those of you who followed Russell Brand's career, maybe you've prayed, maybe you helped pray him into the kingdom.

Maybe that's the case. I sat with the parents of Katy Perry many years ago. Mom, a solid believer. Brother, a solid believer.

They were talking to me about some of my writings and impact they had made on their own lives and we prayed together for God to work in her life. So maybe some of you have helped pray Russell Brand into the kingdom. That is beautiful.

That is wonderful. Now really pray for a deep and radical conversion. Really pray for his baptism that it would be a death to the flesh, a death to the sin, a beginning of new life in God. And pray that God would keep him safe, that God would keep him hidden, that he'd have people around him giving him wisdom saying, hey, listen, take it little by little. Share what's happening in your own life, but don't make yourself the teacher of everyone. Don't make yourself the guide of everyone. Now, he's attended different churches, denominations, which I think is great.

Get exposed to different things. He's confessed to a sexual promiscuity of the past. A woman has accused him of abusing her when she was underage.

She claims that all relationships he had were consensual, but that he was terribly sexually promiscuous. He has talked about the allure of stardom and how he fell into it. So there seems to be a lot of self-recognition. That's a good sign. He's led people in praying the rosary. That's an expression of Christianity that I would not personally relate to. May the Lord deepen him on every level in a godly and true faith. And he said some things that are very positive to hear.

For example, he said, this Sunday I'm taking the plunge, so that would have been yesterday. I'm getting baptized. He said, what's been explained to me is it's an opportunity to die and be reborn, an opportunity to leave the past behind and be reborn in Christ's name. Like it says in Galatians that you can live as an enlightened and awakened person. And he said, you know, people are cynical about the increasing interest in Christianity and the return to God, but to me it's obvious. As meaning deteriorates in the modern world, as our value systems and institutions crumble, all of us become increasingly aware that there is this eerily familiar awakening and beckoning figure that we've known all of our lives within us and around us.

And for me, it's very exciting. So he says the reason I wear a cross is because Christianity, in particular the figure of Christ, or it seems to me inevitably becoming more important as I become more familiar with suffering, purpose, self, and not self. So again, may it be real, may it be deep, may it be true, may God surround him with godly people, may he find a solid fellowship of believers where he can just go as a nobody. In God's sight, he's not a big shot.

In God's sight, he's not a superstar. In God's sight, if he's born again, he's a brand new believer, a babe in Christ. And some godly praying grandma that nobody knows her name, she's got a lot to offer him. An on-fire teenager that's been solid in the Lord all his or her life, they've got something to offer him. So let's pray that God would protect him from celebrity Christianity and model him as a transformed life.

All right, we'll be right back. May God surround him with godly people, may he find a solid fellowship of believers where he can just go as a nobody. In God's sight, he's not a big shot.

In God's sight, he's not a superstar. In God's sight, if he's born again, he's a brand new believer, a babe in Christ. And some godly praying grandma that nobody knows her name, she's got a lot to offer him. An on-fire teenager that's been solid in the Lord all his or her life, they've got something to offer him.

So let's pray that God would protect him from celebrity Christianity and model him as a transformed life. All right, we'll be right back. This is how we rise up, heavy as a hurricane, louder than a freight train. This is how we rise up, heart is beating faster, it feels like thunder. Magic static, call me a fanatic.

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Okay, this is from Zach. I don't differ from you very much with charismatic points, other than your theology, but I'd like to hear you expand on the why wasn't tongues more common than the early church? If it was more common than I'm aware of, and we have some ground to stand on historical tongues gifts, does that mean the Zuzah Street and early Protestant Pentecostal movements were a revival of that Vanderchurch history? I see people criticize Pentecostal tongues and modern gifts as a recent phenomenon. I know that's not entirely true, but I'd appreciate you helping me understand the key points in this argument and how to defend the integrity of tongues and other gifts as being a historical part of the church in some capacity. Thanks for the question, Zach. So, number one, we start with the Word.

What does the Word say? And we have promises of the gift of the Holy Spirit to all. We have promises that the manifestation of the Spirit is given to all for the common good, one gift to one, one gift to another. We have clear teaching in the New Testament not to forbid tongues, just to use tongues properly. We have clear teaching to earnestly seek the gifts, especially prophecy. So, that's the New Testament witness. The New Testament does not say that the practice of tongues or prophecy will cease until Jesus returns. At that point, our imperfect knowledge will be replaced, our imperfect faith will be replaced with that which is perfect. That's when Jesus returns. Any argument tries to say it's the canonization of the Scripture, the canonization of the New Testament is completely bogus and is one of the worst eisegetical errors in modern interpretive history that became popular for a while.

It's dying out again and it didn't even exist in any wide-scale way before, what, late 1800s to early 1900s. We want to talk about something that's a historical aberration. It's not tongues. It's the idea that when the perfect comes, it was speaking of the canonization of Scripture. So, put that aside.

That's just a little bit of a sidetrack. But we do have it clearly taught, clearly welcomed, and clearly not a foreign language that others understand. It happened like that in Acts 2, but there's no evidence that was the case elsewhere in the book of Acts, and it's certainly not the case as Paul talks about it in 1 Corinthians 14. To me, that's just a straightforward reading of the text. Even if he said it wasn't for today, it's pretty straightforward that it wasn't just foreign languages in New Testament times. So, at a certain point in church history, these gifts of faith, they never disappear. You can read explicit accounts of prophecy, of raising the dead, of driving out demons, of healing the sick for centuries. Second, third, fourth, fifth centuries, you keep reading about them.

In fact, there's a book on 20 centuries of charismatic history where you keep going through history and seeing the gifts there. And then even the modern outpouring with tongues being largely restored, that wasn't Azusa Street. That was before then.

It wasn't Charles Parham in Topeka, Kansas. It was before then. You have examples from it 30, 40, 50 years earlier in India as the Holy Spirit was moving. And that's just to paint one picture there.

There are other examples as well. Eddie Hyatt's book on 20 centuries of charismatic history gives a good summary and overview of how the Spirit's been moving through history. But as the church became larger, more and more hierarchical, as it became more and more led by a bishop rather than a body expression, then there was less and less ministry through the body. And you had the distinction between clergy and laity. And one of the results of that was a lessening of the working of the Spirit through the average believer.

So that's a lot of what happened. But the New Testament makes it clear that these will be here until Jesus returns. The New Testament makes it clear we should not forbid speaking in tongues. We should earnestly seek all the gifts. There is benefit to tongues. The fact that some of these things waned, not disappeared, but waned at times in church history is easily explicable.

Just like it's self-evident that they have come back powerfully over the last century plus. Oh, all right. David has no question. Just agreement and appreciation. Ben, I'm not sure we differ here, but I've never heard you address whether or not you believe that healing is in the atonement on this side of the second coming. Obviously it could be thought of as our new body being the ultimate fulfillment at our healing, but the new body aside, do you pray for healing based on it being in the atonement or as a work of the kingdom that may or may not happen or some other belief system? I pray for healing based on healing being part of the atonement and based on healing being a manifestation of the advancing kingdom and based on healing be an expression of the goodness and love of God.

However, I also understand that in this world we don't receive everything that was promised. We have 100% everything we need to overcome sin through the cross. Would you agree that the power to overcome sin was purchased at the cross? That when Jesus died for our sins that he died for them completely and that through baptism, this is the public identification, Paul says we die to sin and we rise in newness of life in Messiah, the body of sin may be destroyed. And he says to consider ourselves dead to sin. That's 100% paid for in the atonement, yet in this world we don't see the full revelation of that. We don't see the full realization of that in this world.

Agreed? Okay, I see it the same with healing. When I wrote my doctoral dissertation on the Hebrew word Rafah in the Hebrew scriptures in the ancient Near East and I really opened that up, I saw that you couldn't separate healing from the atonement in that. It would be like saying, do you believe there's restoration and salvation?

There's so much overlap. Clearly, I do not believe that it was just as Jesus was whipped that the beating was where the healing was purchased and when he died that's when sin was forgiven. Now I see it all as one, his whipping, his death on the cross, all as one, all of his suffering and dying on our behalf. Look at it like this, when he came into the world, he came into our sinful fallen world and he began to endure suffering on our behalf before he ever went to the cross. So he began to take our sicknesses, our pains on his shoulders.

He set the captives free. He came into the muck and filth of our world. If you've ever ministered to sick person after sick person, this is not glorious, you're exposed to the suffering and pain of the world.

Dealing with demons, dealing with the criticism, the hatred. He comes into our world until he descends to the very bottom, the death on the cross, where he deals once and for all with the cause of our suffering, namely sin. And then as a result of that, first we receive forgiveness of sins, then we often receive peace of mind, we often receive healing of body. In other words, now as the outflow of the atonement works its way out in this world, we receive many of these benefits. So forgiveness of sins, that is the foundation of it all, that is received by all through confession and faith, 100%, we turn to him, we ask for forgiveness and mercy, we receive it as a gift from God. Now the other benefits of the atonement work their way out in this world until forever we experience the full results of the atonement. So do I believe healing is in the atonement?

Yes. Do I believe that we always receive healing in this world? No, just like other benefits of the cross we don't fully receive in this world, even though they are available. And we are all going to die. So forgiveness, that is forever, but we are going to die physically and our bodies wear out. So healing is partial in this world and forever and ever it is full and complete. So it is one of those examples of we are ready and not yet.

We have, but we don't have the fullness in this world. Hey friends, Michael Brown here. My delight to serve as your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity. We are living in such urgent times today friends that all of us are in the line of fire. There's a target on your back.

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Here again, it's Dr. Michael Brown. Welcome back to The Line of Fire. So glad to be answering your questions today.

Not taking calls. Mentioning questions that have been sent in. Jonathan, hey, Dr. Mike, no questions, just to encourage you. You are always fair and balanced and promote the gifts as they should be done. Bless you.

Well, thank you, Jonathan. Brad, One Man Show Ministries. Well, we all have our part, right?

Let's do our part well for the glory of God. Melissa, I'd like to hear about what you think about Perry Stone. He has all these visions and prophecies all the time. I don't follow Perry Stone's ministry. I've never watched a message of his.

I only saw one snippet of comments one day. I think he's strongly pre-Trib rapture. We could have an interesting discussion on that. But I haven't read any of his books. I haven't watched any of his messages.

So I can't comment beyond that. I'll just say this, that for anyone that claims to have lots of visions, prophecies, test them out. Test them out. In other words, jot them down, journal it, and see, OK, he said this and that is going to happen this year, or these things are going to transpire in the next six months, or watch and see what happens in the next five years, or this is going to happen with President Trump or President Biden. Watch and see.

Watch and see. And if this person is accurate time after time after time, and their teaching overall in Scripture is sound, praise God. If they're accurate, but their teaching in Scripture is unsound, I would stay far away from them. If their teaching in Scripture is sound, but then are accurate with the prophetic stuff, well then they need to be urged to shut up with the prophetic stuff and stay with the Word. But plenty of ministries I haven't followed, listened to, it's a big church out there.

So if I had, I would give you my opinion, but I haven't. Let's see, Natalie, I've watched your debate on the pre and post-tribulation rapture stuff and I agree with you, it makes sense. I read Daniel chapter 7 verse 21 today, also concreting my decision to believe we'll be here for most or some of it. The deliverance stuff I'm uncertain of, because I see with my own eyes Christians being delivered of stuff, even manifesting, mind-blowing, so I am confused about that one.

Okay, so the question is, the question is simply this. Can a Christian have a demon? Can a Christian be demonized? Can a Christian be demon-possessed? Can a Christian be demon-oppressed? Do Christians need deliverance?

These subjects should be answered a hundred different ways. What do you mean, have a demon? What do you mean by possessed? Is possessed the same as demonized? Is possessed similar to oppressed, etc.? My view is that Christians can come under demonic power and need deliverance.

If they open their hearts and their minds to lies, if they open their hearts and minds to the deception of the enemy, if they give themselves over to sin, they could find themselves in a place where having been bound by lies and deception and the power of sin, they don't know their way out and they need deliverance. Does that mean they are possessed? No, I do not believe a Christian can be possessed by a demon.

I do not believe that. As if that demon controlled that person's life in full. No, if that is the case, then Jesus is not their Lord and they are not a child of God. Do I believe they can come under demonic power?

Yes. Do I believe that in some way, some aspect of their lives, demons can enter in? Yes, we are multifaceted human beings. And just like the daughter of Abraham, a Jewish woman in Luke 13, that Satan had bound her 18 years, she was crippled over by a demonic spirit by Satan, that can happen to a believer today. Or Satan can enter into the soulless realm of a believer. But I do not believe that Satan, demonic spirits can dwell in the human spirit along with the Holy Spirit. I do not believe that personally as I understand scripture.

Are there deliverance ministries that go too far? Of course. Are there things where people just get worked up emotionally? Of course.

Are there mass events of psychological frenzy? Sure. Are there real deliverances taking place today?

Sure. So I believe that deliverance is never going to be our focus in terms of that is just what we do. We are a deliverance ministry.

That is park. I was talking to one brother, very well known for deliverance, he goes, No, no, no. We are a discipleship ministry. We are a church that makes disciples. That is our emphasis and once a month we have a deliverance service.

So he wanted to be clear what their emphasis is. So when it comes to demons there is always a lot of flaky stuff, a lot of weird stuff and there is also very real stuff. And scripture speaks to this as well. So let's do our best to be biblical, put our focus on Jesus not demons. And where there is demonic activity and people need deliverance, be it people in the world who do not know the Lord or people in the Lord that need to be set free, let's minister it in the power of Jesus' name. Let's see, Mark, my question is do you believe Todd Bentley's profession of faith? As to whether Todd Bentley is a believer or not, I don't know.

I do not believe he should be in ministry. That's been my position for 13 years now, 14 years. That's been my view publicly and clearly without equivocation. And it was the view of a group of five that I work with that oversaw an investigation where a private investigator was hired to look at many many many many many allegations against Todd.

Actually going to different locations and traveling out of state to meet face to face and tracking down many people and asking questions. It is the conclusion of those five leaders that were involved. I could not be involved in making the decision because I had already said I did not believe he should be in ministry. But their decision was under no circumstances should he ever leave his own ministry. If he served in another ministry after proper repentance and restoration that would have been something else. But he should never leave his own ministry.

That was their conclusion. Whether he is a believer or not, God knows. God knows. You say well how can he be a believer and live in deception? Believers can do all kinds of things. So I have critics that are furious with me because I won't say he is clearly not a Christian. God knows.

God knows. And I feel very safe saying that just as I feel very safe saying I do not believe he should be in ministry. Certainly he should not be leading a ministry. I absolutely agree with that conclusion.

And I felt this way publicly, openly for over 13 years. Nick, it is not your charismatic views that cause me concern. I think your Pentecostal Arminian view of salvation is forced and could lead people toward legalism. But I know you recognize the amazingness of God's grace so we can agree to disagree. Yeah obviously within the body we are going to agree to disagree. I have friends of mine that say about themselves, I do not agree with everything I have preached or taught about themselves over the decades. Sometimes our own views grow and evolve. Within your own household, husband and wife, you may have fundamental agreements.

I hope you do. But then some areas where you differ. There is no question that the Pentecostal Arminian view of salvation could lead, if wrongly heard or taught or preached, could lead to either legalism or it could lead to despair. I am saved or not saved.

I am lost today. I am saved tomorrow. At the same time, once saved always saved can lead to license and false assurance. And perseverance of the saints, the Reformed doctrine, could lead to lack of assurance because you cannot really know for sure that you are one of the chosen until the day you are with the Lord.

So I have seen abuses in each. So I do my best to teach practically. Namely, if you want to follow Jesus, he has promised to keep you. If Jesus is your Lord, lean on him. He has promised to keep you. You may struggle, but if you want him, he has given you promises. Nobody can pluck you out of his hand. Nobody. Nothing can separate you from his love.

Nothing. The one who began a good work in you will bring it to completion. Absolute rest in that. That is why I never ever ever ever worry about losing my salvation. It does not dawn on me. God has promised to keep me. It does not dawn on me. Any more than when I am flying in a plane, I worry about I am going to jump up, try to pull the emergency door open and jump out of the plane at 30,000 feet. It does not dawn on me.

Right? Any more than dawns on me that I want to walk away from the Lord. That being said, if your heart is set on sin and rebellion, if you think, well, I can do whatever I want because I am saved, no, you cannot. There are strong warnings.

There are strong warnings. So, you give assurance to those that want the Lord in the midst of their weakness and you give warnings to those who think they can brazenly sin. And to me, scripture clearly supports both sides of that equation. Let's see. Marianne, I didn't realize you think the church will go through tribulation. I will have to look up your debate on this. I appreciate you.

Thanks, Marianne. I would encourage you to read the book that Professor Craig Keener and I wrote on the subject, Not Afraid of the Antichrist. We don't bash other views. I have worked with people around the world for decades who hold to a pre-trib rapture. And in fact, some of my closest friends that I have worked with around the world, I don't know where they stand on it. It has never come up. I preach for them hundreds and hundreds of times. We have ministered together and it has never come up between us.

So, I don't divide over this for sure. And some say, well, it is not going through tribulation. It is the tribulation. It is the great tribulation.

It is the wrath of God. My view on this is that God protects his people from his wrath. We both believe in that.

Pre-trib says we are taken out before these things happen. I say that the word plenty teaches that we are kept in the midst of. And that God enables us to flee for refuge. That his wrath is poured out on the wicked. And the real outpouring of wrath tends to happen very close to the end. That is why there are some who believe in a pre-wrath rapture that right before that were taken out. But either way, we both agree that the wrath of God is not poured out on us, believers.

It is poured out on a sinning, rebellious world. And we believe that God protects us from his wrath. But as Jesus prayed in John 17 and 15 for his disciples, his apostles, he said, Father, I don't pray that you take them out. I do not pray that you take them out of the world.

But that you keep them from the evil one. In Isaiah 26, God says to his people in the midst of an end time prophecy about outpouring of wrath, come into the inner chamber and hide yourself until the wrath passes by. Just as God put out his wrath on Egypt and kept the Israelites safe, he will do the same with his people at the end of the age. However, yes, we will suffer tribulation, of course. We will suffer the wrath of man. We will suffer the wrath of Satan. We will suffer the wrath of the Antichrist for the gospel.

That is our privilege and honor. Just like it has been through Church history to this day. People being killed for their faith, arrested for their faith, tortured for their faith, suffering terribly for their faith, being separated from friends and family for their faith, suffering things right now that would be beyond our comprehension. May God strengthen them in the midst of it. That's our lot in this world and we'll be so until the end.

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Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. All right, our last segment here for the day on the Line of Fire. Just an encouragement, you know, as we get to the end of the year, partying, fun, and all that, but you know, you can't live in that mentality all the time, especially with diet. And as God changed my life nine and a half years ago, that's literally, that's why I'm here today. Someone would say, well, Mike, don't you prefer all these other foods? No, I prefer being alive. I prefer being alive so I can be here for the Lord, for Nancy, for our kids, for our grandkids, and for all of you.

So really give it some thought, especially as you come into the new year. Nancy and I wrote a book, Breaking the Stronghold of Food, journaling our lifestyle transformations. They have been not just life-changing, but life-saving. And then I supplement my healthy eating and exercise with TriVita products. They're our co-sponsor, we're listener-sponsored, and we have the help of our co-sponsor, TriVita.

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If it's over the weekend, they will get back to you. Alright, let's see. Brett, people drawn to the Pentecostal movement are seeking an experience, a feeling. It's often conjured up with music and movement. People seeking an experience often are left feeling empty.

They can never replicate that feeling. You spend too much time focused on Pentecostal theology. Reconsistency is more important than intensity in our walk with God. Just preach the Gospel, time is short, not a judgment. I love you in the Lord.

Hey Brett, thanks for the love and for sharing your views candidly. I candidly differ, 100% differ with, quote, people drawn to the Pentecostal movement are seeking an experience, a feeling. No, they're seeking God. They're seeking what's written in the Word.

They're seeking God to be glorified and to touch lives. And we see it's Scripture. It's in the Bible. It's the way God's described.

It's what He promises. So that's what we're seeking Him and what He's promised. And it's not a feeling or experience, just walking with God. To me, being Pentecostal is the foundation of being consistent. In other words, walking in the Spirit, living in the Spirit, communing with the Spirit, being moved down by the Spirit.

Now, many non-Pentecostals share some of those things, but not all of them in the fullness that we could scripturally. So, to me, it's just being scriptural. And we are told that we're to burn bright, right, to stay on fire for God. It's literally boiling the way Paul describes it.

To stay fervent in spirit in Romans 12. So it's consistency, but with intensity. To me, it's both and.

It's not either or. Are there people that are Pentecostal who go from experience to experience? Sure, of course there are. Are there churches that try to work things up?

Sure, there are. And are there non-Pentecostals that are into intellectual pride? Sure. And are many of their services characterized by theologizing that's impractical?

Sure. And do many people leave their first love in non-Pentecostals? That's what happened to me when I went from Pentecostal to Reformed.

It was part of me leaving my first love. I'm not saying it's the case with others. I'm saying it was the case with me. So every side has potential weaknesses. To generalize, though, all who are Reformed are seeking intellectual prideful answers. Or all who are whatever the group is within the church are doing it for this reason or that reason. That is when we fall into error and maybe project our own experiences that we've had in those circles that were negative. But again, thanks for expressing differences. And to me, the reason that Pentecostal and Charismatic things come up a lot is because I'm asked about it a lot. And because there's controversy. And there's flaky stuff that has to be addressed that I have addressed regularly for decades in writing and in preaching.

And there are attacks that are false attacks and wrong attacks that we respond to. And the biggest thing is the Holy Spirit is being poured out around the world. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of millions are experiencing new life through the power of the Spirit. And have a Pentecostal and Charismatic theology based on the Word which was confirmed by experience. Or that experience drew them to the Word where they really came to know God.

So it's both and. But it's what the Spirit is doing around the world. And I don't know how you could just teach and preach through all the New Testament without a strong Holy Spirit emphasis as well. Alright, hey, this is a candid interaction, right? Let's see here.

Okay, no, that's the same one from Marianne again. Susan, what about people who say they are ascending, those who say they can travel in the Spirit? Okay, I fundamentally and deeply question the legitimacy of accounts of anyone who says at will they can go into the third heaven. I don't mean that they can spiritually picture themselves there or that they can spiritually meditate on the reality that we are seated in heavenly places with Christ. And that's a spiritual reality and we take hold of it and we can envision that. I'm not disputing that. It's a New Testament reality that we are seated with Him in heavenly places. Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2, Colossians 3. That's a spiritual reality.

I can take hold of it. What does that mean? What does that imply?

How does that work itself out in my own life? That's one thing totally separate from the idea that I can literally be translated, my spirit, to the presence of God in heaven, right? The third heaven. That's the way Paul describes it. The third heaven, where you heard things that it's not lawful for a man to utter.

He couldn't even repeat the things he heard and learned there. That just at will I could do that. Or several times a day or every single week I'm going back and forth. No, I don't believe that for a split second. And when people claim to have those accounts day and night, I fundamentally question them. I fundamentally question.

I reject that this is happening. In my book, Playing with Holy Fire, I have a whole chapter on to the third heaven and back in a flash. One of my colleagues, a grad from our school, asked many years ago, why is it that people who claim to spend 75% of their time in the third heaven with the Lord are some of the most carnal people I know?

That's a fair question. Do I believe people have had out-of-body experiences? Your death experiences where they were in the presence of the Lord could well be true.

I would scripturally, I have no reason to reject that. And if the fruit of their lives reflects this radical change, for example, one brother, I don't get to see him much, but we're friends and colleagues, and half his face is severely burned when he reaches out a hand to shake its disfigured hand. He was in a plane crash, severely injured, burned in the plane crash, and basically woke up in hell. He was not right with God.

In his physical body he was in agony, and he was told, you can come back in your physical body in this agony and get right with God, or die and burn, and he accepted God's gracious offer. I have no problem saying something like that is real, or someone that has a near-death experience has caught up in the presence of God and meets with the Lord. Those things could well happen. Many people have dreams. Dreams, that's a whole different category.

It's not actually happening, it's a dream. But those who, yeah, I went to heaven today and it's back and forth and back and forth, no, I don't believe it, I don't believe it, I don't believe it's accessible like that. And you say, well, where does the Bible address it?

Well, Paul's writings in 2 Corinthians 12 are the indication to me that it was quite exceptional and so life-changing and profound that he can't even talk about what happened. Not to say that no one can talk about what happened, but it's not just this constant casual chatter thing. So I have real questions with it. And if you're going to be taught, I'm going to teach you how to ascend into the heavenlies, forget about it.

Forget about it. That's my view. I was asked, that is my view. Josh, I'm not sure where you fall on this, but as a charismatic, I don't adhere to the initial evidence doctrine.

I find it divisive and elitist. What's your stance on the initial physical evidence that someone is filled with the Spirit? Okay, the word physical can be a little misleading, because we're not talking about feeling something, but rather what is the outward sign? So, do I believe that speaking in tongues is always the initial outward sign that someone has been immersed in the Spirit, baptized in the Spirit? No, I don't. Do I believe it is the most common sign? Yes. Do I believe there's a reason for that?

Yes. In other words, when someone is filled with the Spirit, they speak. The Spirit of the Lord is on me to preach.

I mean, this is just a paradigm. The prophets, the Spirit came on them, they spoke. So it's not a surprise that when someone is immersed in the Spirit, this is separate from being indwelt by the Spirit at salvation, which is for all of us. Our bodies become the temple of the Holy Spirit at salvation, and by the Spirit we are baptized into the body of Christ at salvation. But this immersion in power, what many refer to as the baptism in the Holy Spirit, or the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit empowering us to be stronger witnesses in a bolder, more powerful capacity.

So, yes, yes, I do believe there is initial outward evidence. And in most cases, it seems that there's speaking involved. Acts 8 doesn't mention anything but Acts 2, Acts 10, and Acts 19, all evidence speaking. Three of those four evidence speaking in tongues in Acts 2 foreign languages, clearly. Acts 19 also speaks of prophecy. So it could be the Holy Spirit comes on someone, they prophesy. It could be the Holy Spirit comes on someone and they don't speak at all, but that would be the exception to the rule. The rule would be there is utterance. Acts 4, they were filled with the Spirit and spoke the word boldly. So, again, that's not this exact same context, but the same principle.

You're filled, you speak. So, I do believe that there generally is initial evidence. Sometimes someone's immersed within the Spirit and doesn't come into the fullness of that expression for a while. But generally speaking, there will be an outward sign. That outward sign normally associated with speaking, most commonly speaking in tongues, but not always for sure. So that is my own view. May the Lord bless you and keep you as you walk close to Him.