What the Church Must Do Post Roe

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So now that Roe v. Wade has been overturned, what is the task of the Church to change America? It's time for the Line of Fire with your host, biblical scholar and cultural commentator, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity. Call 866-34-TRUTH to get on the Line of Fire. And now, here's your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

And we are going to have a great show today. I believe you'll be edified, encouraged, strengthened, challenged, stretched as we talk about what the Church needs to know in the aftermath of the overturning of Roe v. Wade. Also, phone lines are open wide. Anything you want to talk to me about, any subject you want to raise, any question you have, anything that relates in any way to the Line of Fire, phone lines are open. 866-348-7884.

That's 866-34-TRUTH. As we are here today, friends, to infuse you with faith and truth and courage to help you stand strong in the Lord, to see you healthy and thriving in God. We're here to be your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity with joy. Alright, so before we go to your calls and talk about a whole range of subjects, before we go to talk about Roe v. Wade and what the Church must do in the aftermath of Roe v. Wade, so for many, yesterday, July 4th, a day of celebration, a day of setting off fireworks and thanking God for our independence, thanking God for the good that is in America and the many positive things that are in America.

We remain the number one destination around the world where people would love to live because this remains the land of opportunity. But what a picture of America, another mass shooting here at a parade in Illinois and the young man involved in the shooting, no one expected it from him. Now there's some pretty gruesome videos uncovered and things like that but otherwise kept to himself and peaceful. And here, I'm killing children, killing a grandfather in a wheelchair. Just utterly horrific shedding of blood yet again in America, which reminds us we need the Lord.

Yes, we can pass different laws, yes, we can set things in motion to do our best to keep guns out of the hands of unstable people, but bottom line, bottom line, all kinds of people are going to get their hands on weapons one way or another. We need the Lord as a nation. Alright, so let's go over to an article that I wrote. You've found it on various websites the last couple of days, what the church must do in the aftermath of Roe v. Wade.

So here's number one, here's number one. First, we've got to remain vigilant in prayer. It's been said during times of revival that the same prayer that births revival is the same prayer that sustains revival. Well, it's going to be the same thing with pro-life movement. The same prayer that caused Roe v. Wade to be overturned, that brought about the circumstances to bring the right justices in place to make the right ruling.

It was not just people acting. I have no question whatsoever that this was a massive spiritual stronghold and that this was God at work. Just like the greatest problems in America are not economic, are not cultural, are not political, are not even moral. They are spiritual first, then moral, and then all of the other things as well. So prayer, vigilant prayer must remain. Vigilant prayer must continue. Those who have been praying, fasting, yes rejoice, yes thank God, maybe take a little break to catch your breath and back to prayer.

Because abortion is still legal in about half of America and pro-choice, so-called pro-choice advocates, many are just pro-abortion advocates, but they are going to continue to fight for quote, women's right to have abortion. And we must have a change in the mindset and the culture. So prayer must continue. That's number one. Number two, and again this is in my article, What the Church Must Do, post-row.

You can read it at AskDrBrown.org, Extreme.org, Charisma News, various other sites. Here's number two. We must work in a holistic way in each state that has already passed or is about to pass pro-life legislation, working to ensure it's the best possible legislation. For example, if one state has a bill that you cannot get an abortion after 15 weeks of pregnancy, right, and this was meant to partially undercut Roe, and then to pass something that would be acceptable in the state, well, why stop there? If your goal is no abortions, again, we're not talking about saving the life of the mother in the rare, super rare case, that that's the issue, right? We're talking about an elective abortion. And so if the goal is to have none, why have a 15-week law, right? And why even have modified language and a heartbeat bill that, well, accept this, accept this, accept, why not be more holistic in legislation that's being passed so as to eradicate elective abortion, abortion on demand?

That's number two. Number three, we need to establish more pregnancy crisis centers in both pro-life and pro-abortion states. The former are essential because we want to offer compassionate and holistic alternatives for the women who will no longer be able to obtain abortions in their state. Before they travel to get an abortion, let them have ample access to a pro-life center nearby.

Right? So in the states that are pro-life states, and a woman's thinking, okay, I've got to travel two states to get an abortion. Well, let it be that right in her state, their pregnancy crisis centers, where she can go and first talk with someone and rationally and clearly and non-emotionally understand what her options are, and maybe that'll help her decide to keep the baby.

Then conversely, in the pro-abortion states, let it be that there are many, many pregnancy crisis centers so that it's not just a matter of, okay, within a 50-mile radius, there are five abortion clinics and no pregnancy crisis centers. Well, here, here, just think of this. Think of this. You're going to order something, something new that you want to buy. You're buying a new computer, right? You've got one website you've ordered before.

You search, is it there? Yeah. Click. Boom. You just bought it. That quickly.

Boom. Buy now. You just bought it.

Why? Because you have an account there? Because your credit card is on file?

Because your address, delivery, all that is given, right? Boom. You do it. Now, what if you could save $50 on a $1500 computer, but you had to call a number, you had to wait on hold for half an hour, then you had to set up a whole account, then you had to give all your information, then you had a credit card. You might just say, save $50, press that button. The same way, you're waiting, I don't know if I should get an abortion.

I think it's the best choice. And you're going to have to drive two hours to get through a pregnancy crisis, Senator, to talk to someone face-to-face about alternatives, or drive five minutes to a Planned Parenthood. What are you going to do if you're not sure?

You might just do the convenient thing. That's what human beings do. So, pregnancy crisis, and if that means more churches getting involved, more churches helping to fund these, more people willing to volunteer time, more people willing to take these jobs, and take the flight that comes with it. So that's number three. Number four, we must step forward as the church to provide that help in every way possible. What help? Well, help with the couple that wants to have their baby, surrounding them, maybe some financial help to get them started and to get their feet on the ground. Maybe ongoing financial counseling, maybe friends, support groups, maybe getting more involved in adoption, maybe getting more involved in foster care, maybe getting more involved in volunteering at pregnancy crisis centers or in funding them, right? So let's step forward as the church in these ways.

Number five, we must continue to raise our voices and get our message out, seeking to change hearts and minds, both on a national and an interpersonal level. You might say, Dr. Brown, I don't have a radio show like you do. Do you have friends? Do you have family members? Do you have coworkers? Are you on social media?

Do you know anyone who differs with you? You can be a voice to them. You can get them thinking. This is where the battle for life will be played out for years to come on an individual level, across generational and ethnic and racial lines, through the school systems and the media and the courts. And this is also how the battle against slavery was won, not just legislatively, not just by voting and getting in President Lincoln and the Emancipation Proclamation and not just through the horrors of a bloody civil war, but also through prayer, through evangelism, through changing hearts, through changing minds, through books like Uncle Tom's Cabin that deepen people's anti-slavery convictions and open the minds of others. And we must keep emphasizing the importance of revival and renewal in the church, that the changes start with us, that repentance begin with us, and from there, evangelism and Great Commission. Charles Finney was a strong abolitionist, and he was a leader in the abolitionist movement. As I've read, if you were part of his church in New York City and involved in any way in slavery or slave trade, you couldn't take communion.

When he was president of Oberlin College, that was part of an escape route, so-called Underground Railroad, for slaves fleeing for their freedom. But look at what he said in 1836, writing to Theodore Weld, who was an abolitionist leader. Now, if abolition can be made an appendage of a general revival of religion, all is well. I fear no other form of carrying this question will save our country or the liberty or soul of the slave. One most alarming fact is that the absorbing abolitionism has drunk up the spirit of some of the most efficient revival men and is fast doing so to the rest.

And many of our abolition brethren seem satisfied with nothing less than this. In other words, some of the best revivalists and evangelists in the nation just gave themselves to fighting against slavery, and Finney said, mistake. This I've been trying to resist from the beginning, as I have all along foreseen that should that take place, the church and world ecclesiastical and state leaders will become embroiled in one common infernal squabble that will roll a wave of blood over the land. The causes now operating are in my view as certain to lead to this result as a cause is to produce its effect, unless the public mind can be engrossed with the subject of salvation and make abolition an appendage, just as we made temperance an appendage to the revival in Rochester, New York. In other words, revival in the church first, evangelism of the lost first, and then with that, abolitionism, then with that in our day, the pro-life movement. But if you put all the eggs in the pro-life basket and forget revival in the church, evangelism of the world, discipleship, then what will have is even more conflict, more division, more bloodshed. Let revival and evangelism go first, and in the heels of that pro-life movement, we can change the nation. You can read the article at askdrbrown.org. We'll be right back. Dr. Michael Brown.

Dr. Michael Brown. It really is, using the title of one of my recent books, Revival or We Die. And as the subtitle says, a great awakening is our only hope.

So I'm fueled by a holy urgency. At the same time, I have been convicted for many, many years, for over 20 years, that God is still moving in America and that we will see a gospel-based moral and cultural revolution in the nation where people recognize enough is enough, where people are disgusted with the status quo, where they recognize there must be more. Just as in the 60s, hippies, radicals, rebels, yeah, we were in sin, we were in the flesh, but we were also looking for more. We also realized there had to be more in the American dream. You got people of your generation dying in the war in Vietnam for what?

You start questioning a lot of the family values. Do we just go along with it? One of the groups saying, America, love it or leave it, the other group saying, make peace, make love not war, peace, hold on to the peace sign.

There was a search in the midst of the sin and carnality, in the midst of the sex, drugs, rock and roll in Eastern religion, there was a search. I believe that will continue to happen in America in our day. And we've been seeing the pushback for years. We have been seeing pushback in many areas of society, no more than right now. Be it pushback against transgender activism or other aspects of LGBTQ plus extremism. There's a pushing back, a pushing back against cancel culture, a pushing back against extreme wokeness, a pushing back against the pro-abortion movement.

So the fact that Roe v Wade has been overturned is telling me it's not too late. There are positive signs, but we must build on them first and foremost using the spiritual weapons that we have, right? Weapons that are not weapons of physical violence, weapons that are engaged in prayer and using the word of God and preaching the truth and believing God and living in obedience to him. This is how we, quote, fight, not by storming a building or burning it down or vanquishing weapons, not vanquishing weapons, you know what I mean? But in any case, bearing arms is not the way to turn America around.

We're going to out-arm you, we're going to out-gun you, no! It's not the way to change the nation, please. But we must remain vigilant.

Be encouraged, though, if Roe v Wade took almost 50 years, if Roe v Wade can be overturned, other things can be overturned as well. That's what I'm believing for, as we look to win people to the Lord one at a time. All right, we go to the phones, starting in Florida.

Isaiah, welcome to the line of fire. Hi, can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you. All right, thanks for taking my call. My question is concerning warfare commands that God gave to Israel in Deuteronomy, specifically Deuteronomy 20, verse 11. It's really bothering me, huh? Yeah, go ahead.

Oh, sorry. It's been really bothering me the past few days, and I've struggled with it as far as my faith. But Deuteronomy 20, 11 is where Moses tells the people that any cities that they come to and they offer peace, and they accept peace, that the inhabitants are put under forced labor, and if not, then they're destroyed, and then the rest, and then, like, the women and children, all that, taking up spoil and all that. And then, and I don't know if in chapter two where Sihon, the king of Ammon, like, where they say, you know, destroy all the women, men, and children, if that's literal or not. Because in Deuteronomy 20, it says that a city is far off, you spare them, but in the cities that are nearby, like the Jebusites, the Hittites, the Amorites, all that stuff, you know, it says to destroy everything that breeds. And I don't, I can't tell if it's hyperbole, because in 1 Kings, Solomon puts certain people, puts their descendants under forced labor. And I'm trying to figure out what the heck is going on here, like, as far as, like, what moral justification is there for that verse in Deuteronomy 20 verse 11, where God tells them to put those inhabitants under forced labor if they make peace? And I'm just trying to figure out, because I know God is righteous and holy, and I'm just trying to figure out what is going on. Yeah, very fair questions, Isaiah.

So, let me ask you this. When you read through the Bible about the nature of God, does it consistently say that he's slow to anger and great in mercy? Right, yeah. Okay, and does it consistently indicate that he's looking for ways to show mercy rather than destroy? In other words, he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but desires that they repent and live.

Right. Okay, and his nature is ultimately expressed at the cross, where God sends his Son to die for us rather than destroy us all. He offers us forgiveness through the cross. And Jesus, even hanging on the cross, prays, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do, to his crucifiers. So, would you say that that is a consistent revelation of the nature of God, even 1 John 4, God is love? Would you agree that that's consistent through the Bible? Right.

I was thinking that, too. I was thinking, I was thinking, I even, I wasn't even thinking about the cross, like, just, I can't understand this, because throughout the entire Bible, I see how holy and righteous God is, but I just can't understand the whole justification for this. Right, right. So, there has to be some good reason for it.

In other words, it's not arbitrary. That would be contrary to the nature of God. In fact, if you're reading through Deuteronomy, straight through, you would have already read this in Deuteronomy chapter 10, speaking about the nature of God, and let's just see. Moses is recounting these things, mark the heavens to their uttermost reaches, belong to the Lord their God, the earth and all that's in it, and the call to circumcise their hearts, for the Lord your God is God supreme, and Lord supreme, the great, the mighty, the awesome God who shows no favor, takes no bribe, but upholds the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and befriends the stranger, providing him with food and clothing.

You too must befriend the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. So, this is what you've already read in Deuteronomy, so the answer is as follows. According to Genesis 15, the inhabitants of the land were growing in their wickedness, but God would not allow Israel to have the land until their wickedness reached such a level that they had to be dealt with. So, God waited 400 years, including allowing his people to be slaves in Egypt, think of this, and to suffer in Egypt because it wasn't time for the punishment yet. So, these nations were deserving of punishment, just like a judge, when he's sentencing a serial rapist and a serial killer to jail for 10 rapes and 5 murders, he doesn't say, okay, 3 years and then after that you're out on parole.

No, that would be horrifically unfair. So, God in pronouncing a death sentence over these peoples, even to the point that their own children were corrupted by the sins of the previous generations, and some would argue that this was a mixed breed, that it was nifilim and it was a mixed breed that had to be destroyed of fallen angels and human beings, but even putting that aside, wickedness had been passed down, and what they deserved was death, and in order to free the world of the pollution they would bring, God had to do it. So, if the Israelites intermarried with them, the Israelites would have been destroyed, Messiah never would have come.

Let's take this further. The forced servitude was a mercy. For those that were nearby, they were to be driven out. Now, in some cases they were just driven out, not killed, but driven out. And it is hyperbole in ancient Near Eastern language to talk about wiping out every single one, because we know through the history, just read into judges, they weren't all wiped out. There were plenty that were preserved and lived for generations side by side with the Israelites. So that's part of ancient Near Eastern terminology that utterly brought them out. But number one, they were worthy of death, and therefore they needed to be destroyed, as harsh as that sounds. Think of them like ISIS killers and others that, if you don't kill them, they kill you.

That's one thing. For Israel to intermarry with those in the land would have been spiritually fatal, Israel would have fallen into sin, been judged, the Messiah never would have come to save the whole world. Therefore it's like cutting off an unhealthy limb to save the body. Thirdly, for the nations that were more distant, they should have been destroyed, but God's mercy allowed them to serve Israel.

That was a mercy. It would be like sending someone to forced labor. Okay, you should get the death penalty, but instead we're going to put you to work on these projects which will ultimately benefit others. So in that case, it was a mercy for them, and also an opportunity for them to become worshippers of the God of Israel, and if they became true worshippers of the God of Israel, they would ultimately have equal status with the people of Israel over time. So you have to look at this in light of the compassionate, kind, gracious nature of God, His calling to be kind to the strangers. These people wanted Israel dead, right? So those that were able to receive mercy rather than being killed became their servants. And in the ancient world, that would be a great extension of mercy.

If God didn't do this, Israel would have intermingled, Israel would have worshiped idols, been destroyed, redemption never would have come. I hope this helps, Isaiah. I hope it helps. It's The Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks, friends, for joining us on The Line of Fire. There was a great question from Eddie, excuse me, we'll get to Eddie shortly, from Isaiah right before the break. Isaiah, in my book, Has God Failed You? Has God failed you? I also address some of these questions in a little more depth. And in my book, Compassionate Father or Consuming Fire? Who is the God of the Old Testament?

I address them as well. So has God failed you? I have a couple of chapters that deal with some of these difficult questions in the Bible. And then, Compassionate Father or Consuming Fire? Who is the God of the Old Testament?

I deal with these head on as well. There are solid answers. And above all, we know who the Lord is. We know that He's trustworthy.

It's not a cop-out. It's knowing who He is, knowing His faithfulness, knowing His long-suffering. How patient is God towards you and towards me?

Think of that. That's the God we serve, the God we love. That's the same God that called on Israel to drive out the Canaanites. So, same God, consistent in every way. Great in mercy, slow to anger.

As some have said, it's a good thing He's great in mercy, slow to anger, rather than great in anger, slow to mercy. If that was the case, we'd all be long since gone. Alright, any question of any kind, we're opening the phones today. 866-348-7884. It should be this coming Monday, July 11th, thereabouts, that we send out our e-blast with the long-awaited announcement about our next Israel trip. So, if you're not getting my emails, this is a great time to do it. It's startyourbrown.org. We've got a great welcome program. People are really enjoying finding out more about my own testimony and background and a whole bunch of other things that I think you'll find really edifying and helpful that we send your way. That's startyourbrown.org.

Send them for the emails. I've got a couple other really neat announcements tying in with the Israel trip, but I'll give them the next day or two here. Alright, let us go to Misty in Tennessee. Welcome to the line of fire. Thanks for calling. Thank you for having me. I have one thing to say about the real versus way and that I'm a registered nurse and I recently had spoken with a brand new crisis center that's like 20 minutes from me and they just started during COVID and they said God has just kind of told them to start it during COVID.

I have not been able to see that many people. And she said they had been praying for an RN to get on board with them because they want to start doing medical treatments for these young girls or women that needs the help. So that's a positive on that because, you know, we can talk and we can be against it or for it. But if we're not doing anything, so I was praying I was like, God, I'm so excited about this thing overturned.

What can I do? And then I just kind of Googled and found it. So that's a good thing. Great, wonderful. Let's do whatever we can in any way that we can. If we all do it part time, full time, whatever opportunities we have, we'll make a difference.

A lot of people doing a little will make a difference. Yeah. Right. Okay, so this is a question. I guess you're taking any questions. Yes, yes, we are.

We always just ask, not ask. My daughter just recently started dating this guy and he says he's a Christian, but he started indoctrinating my daughter and my grandchildren that the earth is flat. And I just I was like, I trust your outlook on things. I feel like that you're pretty well versed in many subjects. And so I don't agree with it. I just wanted to know what your opinion is.

So let me let me answer more broadly. First, I would be very concerned about anyone that is pushing something like that on people that they are befriending or going with. So your daughter, grandchildren, that would really concern me that if it is a fringe belief and they are that into it, that they're pushing it on others. That concerns me just about who that person is, what their personality is, what marriage and family would be like with that person. That to me is a big, big danger sign.

Okay. If it was they were pushing loving Jesus more and loving your neighbor more and being closer to God and and emanating the goodness of the Lord, I'd say wonderful. But when you're pushing something fringe like this and trying to indoctrinate, it's one thing is just if it comes up, the person has an opinion that, oh, okay, I differ. But if they're pushing in an indoctrinating way and this is a big part of their identity, that to me is a big danger sign.

Okay, so that's that's number one. Number two, I have not yet to this day had any serious interaction with a Flat Earth believer. No one has ever called the show and tried to make an argument, a coherent argument for Flat Earth. There is nothing in scripture to support it. The Bible uses observational language. It talks about the sun rising and the sun going down, right? We all know that the sun does not go around the earth, but we still use that terminology today. What time is sunrise?

What time is sunset, right? It's observational language. The four corners of the earth do not mean that the earth has to be a square or a rectangle, just means the four ends. And you have other verses that speak of God sitting on the circle of the earth.

Does that mean that they perceived it to be a globe? It's not what it's about. It's not the point of it. So and then from everything you have to end up arguing to hold to this position, you know, and that the view from outer space is not real or people are lying, you know, it really gets you into all kinds of weird conspiracy stuff.

So I really, really be very, very cautious about this and really sit with your daughter and talk honestly. I have tried. He's part of a church that you actually had a talk with their pastor not too long ago. But they do deliverance services as well.

And he's part of the deliverance team. And he throws out that people have spirits and need to be delivered like very loosely. And he has recently done this to me, which has severed our relationship, because he's only been in the equation for like two months. And I, I was concerned about some things that my grandchildren had talked to me about. So I talked to them about it. And he told me I had a spirit of fear, a spirit of worry and, and that I have other spirits, probably.

So now my daughter and he are not talking to me. And it's just gotten really weird really fast. Yeah, so that's that's big problem on every side, Misty, big, big problem. Big warning flags, you really got to pray for your daughter to see through some of this now the church might be teaching in a healthy way. And people may be taking things to extreme or the church may be teaching in an unhealthy way.

And the people are just following it logically. But, but either even if someone says you probably have other spirits, that's not biblical. You probably have other spirits. So, yeah, I really pray for your daughter to see whatever extremes are going on in this young man's life. And he may love the Lord to just be immature and need some solid teaching, discipling, or he may be off the wall.

But you hate for your daughter to get caught up in a way for them to cut you off. What can I say may that may the Lord intervene, I'm sorry to hear that may the Lord intervene. 866-3-4 truth, John TC on YouTube, thank you for your donation really appreciate it, quote, just want to thank you for all you've done for the body your ministry has been a blessing friend that's why we're here. Thank you.

Thank you for helping us reach others. All right, we go to our buddy Eddie in Madison, Connecticut. Welcome to the line of fire. Dr. Brown big heated battle the other night about talking about heaven again and I kind of started and I said, Listen, does anybody read Jesus said that my father's house or many mansions, if I go mean in heaven. Prepare a place for you. I'll come back and get you that where I am, you'll be so I said, did he come back guy. That means there's nobody there. He said, everybody said he said that where I am, you'll be also. So I said, so right away started a big argument Paul said absent from the bus. So I said I don't know what you want to do you're playing ping pong with the scriptures you're in heaven, you're out of heaven. But that scripture, Dr. Brown kind of said to me, if I go prepare a place for you, I'll come back and get you that where I am, you'll be too.

So that said to me, you're not there. So here's, here's what was missed in your Bible study where you had yet another battle. It's good you guys are all together all these years in your Bible study there. Okay, so number one we have pictures like Revelation the sixth chapter that speaks of the souls of those who were beheaded for the faith. They're before the throne of God crying out. So there are people in heaven right now, the multitudes in fact, according to other scripture in the presence of God. But what do we do with this?

Well, we keep reading in John 14. The first thing that we notice is that there's a word that's used here for room. It's the Greek monai here. Alright, so it's a room, it's a place to live. We actually get the word monastery from this room, from this, okay? So that's verse three. When you keep reading down this verse occurs one other time in the New Testament.

And here it is. Jesus says, verse 23, anyone who loves me will obey my teaching, my father will love them and we will come to them and make our home with them. In the Greek, this is the exact same word that's used.

So this is what it's talking about. It's not talking about heaven. We often use it about heaven, but it's not talking about heaven. Jesus is going to prepare a place, he dies, and then he returns to us, how? By his spirit. And we now live with him, with the father, with the son, by the spirit.

We live with them. So again, this word is found, I'm just going to click on it to confirm it in the Greek, but this word in verse three is only found two times in the entire New Testament, this Greek word. All right?

And just getting to it again, okay. And only here, and in the third verse of John 14, and then down these few other verses, what's it saying? That the home, the room that he prepares for us is spiritual. It's not talking about the mansion in heaven.

You know, we often talk about that and so on. Hey, the purpose of heaven is not mansions. The purpose of heaven is to be in the presence of God, worshiping and loving him without restriction, right?

Without sin, without battle, without the flesh. But he has come back and brought us to this place of fellowship, this room with him, with the father, the son, by the spirit, living together. That's what it's talking about here and now. We should be in that room, that place right now. All right, thanks, buddy, for the question. We'll be right back.

We're just confirming John 14, 2, John 14, 23, the only time in the entire New Testament that this Greek word, manai, or plural, manai, is used, so obviously talking about the same thing in verse 23 as in verse 2. All right, we go back to the, oh, before we go back to the phones, don't forget to visit vitaminmission.com. Check out the wonderful health supplements from my friend and personal doctor, Dr. Mark Stangler.

Yeah, check these out. You get a special Dr. Brown discount when you go there. Then in turn, Dr. Stangler turns and makes a donation to our ministry to help us reach more people, get on more radio stations, be a voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity for more and more people. All right, we go back to the phones.

Don in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. Welcome to the line of fire. Thank you, Dr. Brown, for having me.

You are very welcome, sir. Yes, I've got a question because I've heard it said, and I've heard it said pretty often that a Democrat can't be for pro-choice or abortion, like you would say, would you still be a believer? No, I would not say that if you vote Democrat, you can't be a believer. I would say that your priorities are misplaced if, unless the Democrat is a pro-life Democrat, that this, you know, just like in the days of slavery, I would have said if, you know, that's the first issue for me. No, I'm sure there are believers that vote Democrat and there are believers within the Democratic Party, right, for sure. However, I believe that it's, and I could understand how someone said I couldn't vote for Trump or I have issues with Republicans, so then you just vote for Libertarian or write-in candidate or don't vote.

But in my view, the first priority is the shedding of innocent blood, and therefore if I know a candidate is pro-abortion, I couldn't vote for them, even if they were strong in other areas. That is my own viewpoint, my own conviction. Okay, well, let me, can we look at 1 Samuel 15?

And I sort of disagree with the way you explained this to the previous caller. So 1 Samuel 15, verse three, where Saul, Samuel is sent to Saul by God, and God tells him to go smite the Amalekites, and to slay both man, woman, infant, and suckling, ox, sheep, camel, and ad, and sucklings are babies. And I'm sure some of the women were probably pregnant. So this is an act of divine judgment because of Amalek's sin. It's an act of divine judgment. Yeah, and I've heard, I've heard that some ministers explain this by saying, well, you know, the Amalekites were so evil that the children were going to be so evil also, and that God was wiping clean of wicked, potentially wicked children. Right, there are even some, there are some scientists that would say that certain aspects of wickedness could be inherited, yeah, passed down generationally, yeah.

So why is that different today? Could some aspects of wickedness be passed down? Oh, yeah, it's very simple, Don. Number one, we don't know that, okay? And you might just say, well, let's just kill that neighbor then. That neighbor's, I think that neighbor's a wicked person, I'm going to kill them. Isn't that murder? Yes, that's murder. Well, that baby, he's got a really bad mommy and daddy. I mean, they're really, really bad people, so I'm just going to go kill the baby.

That's murder, right? So when God pronounces judgment, how many times does this happen in the Bible? Outside of the conquest of Canaan, how many other times does this happen in the Bible?

Once, once, one time. And how did God feel when people, evil people, pagans, were sacrificing their own babies? How did he judge them for? When Israel sacrificed their own babies, what are they going to be, wicked babies?

You don't have the right to do that. God gives life and God takes life. When God said in this one extreme case, wipe them all out, that was done. But to say, well, maybe that baby we abort is going to be wicked, well, that would just give us the right to murder, murder anybody. To use that as a pro-abortion argument, that's a pro-murderer argument. That's saying, hey, I think those people down the block, they're like the Amalekites, let's kill them, God forbid. Absolutely, categorically not. God forbid. I appreciate the call and the question, but I have to answer as forcefully as possible, no, we do not advocate or condone murder. And God is not calling us and commanding us to go around murdering people that we might think are wicked.

And I know you're not saying we should go around doing that, but even to use that potentially as a pro-abortion argument, God forbid. All right, let's go to John in North Dakota. Welcome to the line of fire. Hello, hi Dr. Brown.

Hey. I'm a pastor here in North Dakota. I have a simple question that really bothered me after the whole thing happened with Roe vs. Wade. I mean, people have been praying for this for many, many years and I kind of checked out all my favorite preachers. So obviously I'm a preacher myself, but there are many preachers that speak into my life, a lot of them, Charismatics or Pentecostals. And on social media, many of them, I would say probably 80 to 90% were absolutely silent on that Friday and the day after and the day after that.

And I was really grieved by that. Some even, you know, big ministries that everyone would know. And my question to you is, is that not a problem that men and women of God won't stand up publicly for this and why would they not? And isn't this the problem why we are in America where we are at? It's a giant problem. It's a terrible problem. It's inexcusable.

There's no good rationale for it. Now, the reason that some would give is I want to be able to win people to Jesus. I don't want anything to stand in the way of winning people to Jesus. This would be the mindset, right?

Read Andy Stanley's new book, Not In It To Win It. There's a lot I love about the book and a lot I really differ with. So he's already agreed to come on the air so we can have a discussion about this and I've already shared privately some areas that I love and some where I really differ. So we'll have that discussion.

But here's the mindset. Abortion is so volatile. The moment you touch it, you're going to get instant political divisions, instant emotional divisions. People that you want to reach with the gospel, you now won't be able to reach. People will be turned away from Jesus.

Better to not talk about that publicly. To minister life, you know, in other ways. Just teach the word. Practice love one another as Jesus loved us. Reach the lost. And then build up a good, positive culture of life and help people to understand.

And then we can more effectively reach the world. Now the reason I say that that mentality is not realistic is, number one, the Great Commission has a call to go and make disciples. And part of making disciples is to teach them principles of life and truth. If we lived in the days of slavery, segregation, let's say that we're a church in the south in the midst of slavery and segregation. We're not supposed to address it because it's controversial. We're not supposed to speak out against injustice. We're not supposed to stand up for the poor and the oppressed.

We're not supposed to go against the cultural norms. We're called to be the salt of the earth and the light of the world. We must do it in a way that exalts Jesus.

We must do it in a way that is not political. In other words, it's one thing to be pro-life. It's another thing to be pro-Trump or pro-Biden or pro-de Santis or pro... So that's a totally separate issue, right? And it's one thing to get political. My book coming out in September, The Political Seduction of the Church, has a subtitle, How Millions of American Christians Have Confused the Gospel with Politics, right? So we get super caught up in political, Republican versus Democrat.

That's not the issue. I talk about this a lot as part of my calling as a radio host and an op-ed writer, but your average pastor is going to talk very little politics, but absolutely moral and cultural issues. This is the world that we live in. What about in the big church, all the women now with the overturning of Roe v. Wade who had abortions, who are dealing afresh with guilt, who are dealing with the demons of the past, so to say, coming up and they're struggling. What about the people in the church contemplating abortion? For us to not publicly rejoice at the same time, to take advantage of this time, to say to all of you women that think that we're heartless and crazy, can we talk?

We want to get to know you. Look, you're afraid. You think that it's just a bunch of old men telling you what you can do with your body. You're already thinking about the 11-year-old girl that gets raped by her uncle and you're going to force this girl to have a baby.

What kind of cruel monster are you? This is our perfect time to reach out, to talk with compassion, to say, what would you just for one moment consider, is that a human being in the womb? Isn't that everything? So, to me, it is a massive, massive gap. It is a major reason that the church is so confused. It is not that we're talking about these issues too much from the pulpit, quite the contrary.

We hardly are. And then, when we do, we often get political about it or we are so right in our position we forget the people hurting. I've often said that when I'm dealing with gay issues or same-sex quote marriage or trans issues and I'm equipping a church to deal with this, that I'm also speaking as if there's a 15-year-old kid in the front row, suicidal, gay identified, wondering if there's any hope or love from this church. Whatever I say, I want him to hear love. If he cut us, we bleed love.

It's the same thing here. John, may the Lord awaken the shepherds in his body. The flock needs your guidance now. We've got an important show on revival tomorrow. Don't miss it.