What is the Basis for Unity in the Nation and the Church?

What is the basis for unity in the nation and the church? That is a topic we'll discuss today right here on the Christian Worldview Radio Program where the mission is to sharpen the biblical worldview of Christians and to share the good news that all people can be reconciled to God through faith in Jesus Christ.

is thechristianworldview.org. Thanks for joining us today on the Christian Worldview as we discuss unity. Now unity is a concept that most everyone desires. After all, isn't life better when people and nations and churches unite around shared values? Division, or the opposite of unity, is widespread in our nation. The recent presidential election bears this out. The electorate is nearly equally divided amongst Trump voters and Biden voters. The political parties push policies that are diametrically opposed to each other.

And now allegations of voting fraud by Republicans toward Democrats have caused even more division and confusion in this country. So how is it possible to have unity between two sides who have completely different visions for America? And what about unity amongst Christians in the church? Paul commanded the Ephesians to this weekend on the Christian Worldview, Travis Allen joins us to discuss the basis for unity, both in the nation and also the church.

Travis is a senior pastor of Grace Church in Greeley, Colorado, and formerly served our country as a Navy SEAL. Let's get to the first segment of the interview with Travis Allen. And the church.

And I want to talk about the nation aspect of things first. So let's go to the recent election. And there have been widespread allegations, especially, of course, by the Trump administration, of voting fraud during this election.

And here is what Senator Lindsey Graham had to say about what should be done with these allegations. If Republicans don't challenge and change the U.S. election system, they'll never be another Republican president elected again. President Trump should not concede. We're down to less than 10,000 votes in Georgia.

He's going to win North Carolina. We've gone from 93,000 votes to less than 20,000 votes in Arizona or more votes to be counted. There are allegations of system failure, fraud.

John James, do not concede. These computers in Michigan do not pass the smell test. Keep fighting for every legal and live vote. Okay, let me tell you, Travis, some of these allegations of systemic failure, fraud in this particular election.

This is from Chris Barden's email. He, as a Republican, ran for the attorney general of Minnesota, I think, in the last election cycle. He said in his most recent e-newsletter, federal criminal investigations, the FBI has opened three criminal investigations into election fraud, two in Michigan, one in Pennsylvania. Point two, illegal failures to have dual ability.

They have to have dual observers, observers from both sides. Multiple witnesses, statements and video recordings show that in Michigan and Pennsylvania egregious violations of law included hours and over 700,000 votes that were counted secretly out of the view of any observers from the other party. Number three, backdating ballots and forging birth dates. Number four, online data, corrupt voting machines and software. A county in Michigan discovered their election software accidentally flipped thousands of Trump votes for Biden. After a recount by hand, Trump won the county. The software is used in 47 other Michigan counties and other Democrat states.

The same software is used in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Nevada. Online data analysis shows impossible changes in the vote totals in the middle of the night after Republican observers were banned from watching the counting. A 200% turnout claimed in some districts, 89% claimed in Democrat Wisconsin districts, more than eight points higher than any election in U.S. history and not consistent with turnout in any other city, cities in America. Next point, a U.S. Supreme Court historic case on the horizon. All this evidence in the background, of course, I cannot validate any of it.

I'm not on the inside of this. If even some of that widespread, Travis, of voter fraud is true, whether or not I can flip the election or not, what does that say about where our country is right now? Well, David, I think it says a lot about the levels of trust and credibility in our system. I think it seems that for the last, I don't know, five, 10 years, but certainly during Trump's presidency, there's been more and more accusations of corruption at high levels. And whether it's going from left to right or right to left, when you're a regular citizen of the country trying to follow the news media and even corruption of the news media and seeing that they're in the bag for the left, it becomes very difficult as just the average Joe citizen to know who to trust. And you start to suspect everybody. So I don't think there's been an election that I remember in my lifetime where there's been this level of suspicion about voter fraud on the one side and then to see the complete media whitewashing of it all to say, nothing to see here, folks.

Keep moving along and let's welcome President-elect Biden. The election can't be called by the media and yet it has been called. So there are a lot of reasons for general suspicion and attitude suspicion throughout the land. But then when you hear these anecdotes of fraud and counting ballots and all that, I'm hearing the same thing to people, people that I know who, quote unquote, no people. They're telling us that there is quite a bit of evidence. So it remains to be seen what evidence that they can gather and then what can actually be proven in court. The country has to stand by and wait. But we're looking at pretty troubled times, aren't we?

We are. And the truth needs to come out one way or the other, even if it doesn't flip the election for Trump. All Americans need to know that this was a free and fair election. That is the basis for our constitutional republic. When that goes away, if you don't have that, then you really just have a few people controlling who have all the power in the country. If I'm a Democrat official and I'm elected into office and there's suspicion about how I got there, it actually serves my purposes to make sure that we have a recount and so that it takes away all suspicion. And I think it's a good time in our country with so much suspicion, so little credibility in elected officials. I think it's a good time in our country to say, all right, let's stop and let's do the counting.

Let's have a reset on trustworthiness in our system. And whether or not people are willing to do that, it doesn't look good. Yeah, you're exactly right. After all, this is really a biblical issue. It's even go back to the Ten Commandments of that you should not bear false witness or lie or steal. And that's exactly what's being alleged here with some evidence.

So we're going to have to wait to see this play out. But as you were mentioning in your previous answer, the media doesn't seem even willing to entertain the idea that there could be fraud that tipped the election one way or the other. I'm going to play you three successive sound bites. The first is from Neil Cavuto on Fox News, of all place. By the way, you can't trust necessarily Fox News as being the repository of conservatism. Here's what Neil Cavuto said. As Kayleigh McEnany, who is Donald Trump's White House spokesperson, she was talking about this voter fraud.

And watch the way Fox News' Neil Cavuto cuts her off. We want every legal vote to be counted and we want every illegal vote. Well, I just think we have to be very clear that she's charging. The other side is welcoming fraud and welcoming illegal voting. Unless she has more details to back that up. I can't in good countenance continue showing you this.

I want to make sure that maybe they do have something to back that up. But that's an explosive charge to make that the other side is effectively rigging and cheating. If she does bring proof of that, of course, we'll take you back. So far, she has started saying right at the outset, welcoming fraud, welcoming illegal voting. OK, so Neil Cavuto cut her off right away. And then we go, I believe this is Brian Stelter from I think he's from CNN. He started talking about the fact that there is this this mentality of election denialism in this country. In other words, framing those who have suspicion about the election as believing in fairy tales and so forth.

Here's Brian Stelter. I do think at the same time, we should all recognize that there is election denialism going on. There are crazy conspiracy theories out there being read by millions of people. Tens of millions of people are seeing this stuff on Fox News about voter fraud. And it is real. And election denialism is real. And it has to be called out, although I understand why the Biden campaign is trying to move past it. I was just going to say their posture is what I would call sort of vigilant reassurance to say, look, there are grown ups here. They happen to be on our side of the aisle.

We're doing this. The sense is the grown ups are in charge. Like you said, there's nothing to see here.

Keep moving along. If you question this kind of thing, you're just into election denialism. Mika Brzezinski said it's almost traitorous to even bring up that there may not be this election may have not been free and fair. So why do you think the Democrats, the mainstream media, even some on Fox News, even much of America is really not willing to consider or investigate something as important if there is widespread voter fraud in our election? It's hard to say why, especially some people on the conservative side of this want to so so quickly just accept the accept the narrative. And these concerns are not just coming from the Trump administration. They're coming from different states. They're coming from quite a wide swath of concern in different parts of the country. And so for the left just to pat everyone on the head and fly over country and say there's nothing to see here.

Trust us. It's a bit hard to take. And I think, you know, if they're going to treat they're going to treat quite a few people like like children that way, they just need to trust, trust the adults in the room. They're not going to win hearts and minds in that way.

Why are they doing that? I think God knows the answer to that in every human heart. As I look back on the election, some of the things are lost in the larger concerns about the presidency itself are are just issues of corruption in our nation. Here in Colorado, the majority of our citizens voted to save the gray wolves, but an even larger majority of our citizens voted against banning late term abortions after 22 weeks. So so there's blood on our hands and people people are loving their sin, legalizing marijuana. Oregon, they've lost their minds.

They're legalizing personal possession of methamphetamines and cocaine and heroin and oxycodone. So when you have a when you have a nation of people who love their sin, you know, all bets are off as far as their honesty is concerned. I have trouble believing the script. You're listening today to an interview with Travis Allen, the senior pastor of Grace Church in Greeley, Colorado.

Their Web site where you can hear his sermons is Grace Greeley dot org. In this issue of voting fraud, there's been more widespread allegations of this during this election than at any time I remember in my lifetime. And I received an email from a listener this week saying that why are we talking about this? There's no evidence of this.

And I would say to the contrary, there seems to be quite a lot of evidence from the highest positions of power. We have much more coming up with Travis Allen as we talk about unity in the nation and in the church. We'll talk more about the political realm and the nation and then also get into what unity looks like in the church.

What should be the basis of it? There's lots of division amongst Christians as well. So how can we fulfill the command of scripture to be unified amongst other believers? I'm David Wheat and you're listening to the Christian Real View.

We'll be right back after this. The. Who is George Soros and what does he believe? Are you religious? No. Do you believe in God? No. Soros told the independent newspaper in Great Britain, it is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of God, the creator of everything.

But I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out. Soros spends his billions to transform America into godless socialism. Be informed about him and the organizations he funds by ordering this George Soros Resource Bundle, which includes a 60-minute DVD, 60-page book and 16-page follow the money chart and guide for a donation of $50 or more to the Christian Real View. To order, call 1-888-646-2233 or write to Box 401, Excelsior, Minnesota 55331 or visit thechristianworldview.org. That's thechristianworldview.org. The Bible says that children should be raised in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. There's nothing more important than sitting, walking, talking and teaching your son or daughter to love and fear God. The church is swimming in children's resources, but it's ultra-important to select ones that accurately represent God, His Word and the Gospel. At our store on thechristianworldview.org, we are intentional about offering resources that will build a sound and strong faith in children. You will find several Bibles for children, the Adam Raccoon book series and Good News for Little Hearts series.

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I'm David Wheaton, the host. Our website is thechristianworldview.org. Just a reminder to take advantage of some of the resources that we're offering right now. We have the George Soros Resource Bundle, which includes a 60-minute DVD, a 60-page book and a 16-page chart and guide that follows the money and explains how this man has reached into so many different organizations to radically transform this country. This is a very relevant resource right now, especially with all these allegations of voting fraud that's going on around the country on so many different levels, whether it's from voting machines or counting or mail-in votes. A lot of this probably circles back to George Soros, so get informed about him.

You can find out about that. We also have Cal Beisner's newest booklet, How Does the Creation Care Movement Threaten the Pro-Life Movement? We're offering that for a donation of any amount to the Christian Real View. To order any of these, just get in contact with us the usual ways through our website, thechristianrealview.org, or call us 1-888-646-2233. Today in the program, Travis Allen joins us.

He is the senior pastor of Grace Church in Greeley, Colorado. Our topic is unity. There's been a lot of talk about unity recently, now that Joe Biden ostensibly has won the presidency. He's mentioned this in his acceptance speech and elsewhere, that now it's time to heal, not so much divisive rhetoric. He blames Trump for all the division in the country. But what is the basis for that unity in the nation and the church? That's our topic today.

And let's get back to the second segment of the interview with Travis Allen. Travis, just one more question about the election before we get into the issue of unity, whether there can be unity in the nation and in the church, and what the basis for that is. The reaction of the media to the election being called, the AP calling the election for Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.

Here's a little montage from everyone from Van Jones, from CNN, to others literally breaking down in tears at the election being called for Joe Biden. Character matters. It matters. Tell them the truth matters.

Being a good person matters. I don't know why I'm crying so much, but what got me choked up was the picture of the cab driver. And so I'm very emotional. So when you ask me how I'm feeling right now, I'm sorry.

That's all I can tell you. This is how I feel right now. Nobody knows what it feels like as a black man to be able to speak in this moment. If you're an immigrant, you don't have to worry if the president's going to be happy to have babies snatched away or send dreamers back for no reason. We don't care who you are.

We don't care if you voted for us or not. This is vindication for a lot of people who have really suffered. These are news anchors on major cable news networks in this country breaking down and weeping on air after Joe Biden, the race was called for him by the AP. And as you mentioned, Travis, in your last answer, Van Jones at the beginning there was talking about the fact that we have someone now who has high character. And this is for the goodness of people.

This is what this is about. Of course, the contrast there to what the Democrats stand for in the genocide is the only way you can put it. Of the preborn and partially born, even the born, the breaking down of the family morality.

These are all very wicked things. What is your reaction, Travis, to that kind of reaction? Why do we see that after this election? I don't have any doubt whatsoever that those people are genuine and sincere in their emotion, in the expression of their emotion. And I think what it demonstrates is that they have radically misaligned affections, which shows a worship problem. When this world is all you have, when this world is and you're responsible, you've got the responsibility on your shoulders to turn earth into heaven, because there is no future for you. There is no future beyond the grave. Then what happens with every decision, every law passed or not passed, every election, every election cycle is of, really in your world, it's of earth shattering significance. The heights of emotion, the depths of feeling about all this, it just goes so deep. It's profound.

And it's profoundly sad to hear that montage, to hear people that are so misaligned in their affections of what they truly love and what they truly hate. They do not know God. They don't know Him. They don't love Him. They love this world. And if this world is all that they love, this is the closest to heaven that they're ever going to come. That's very tragic.

I was thinking of that kind of weeping should really be reserved for weeping over our sin or weeping over the sin in the world that people are lost and going to hell or the loss of a loved one or something. But wow, that was really, I think, as you say, just shows where their affections are. Okay, Travis, I want to transition now to really our topic as we've talked about the potential for voting fraud and the reaction of the media. Joe Biden is in his acceptance speech. He talked about the fact that this has been a dark era in this country during the Trump administration, that Trump is the great divider, and he's going to be, his goal is to be going to be a uniter of this country. I want to play a couple more sound bites and have you react to them.

Here's the first one is from Joe Biden in his acceptance speech. I'm a proud Democrat, but I will govern as an American president. I'll work as hard for those who didn't vote for me as those who did. Let this grim era of demonization in America begin to end here and now. I said at the outset, I wanted to represent this campaign to represent and look like America. We've done that. Now that's what the administration will look like and act like. For all those of you who voted for President Trump, I understand the disappointment tonight.

I've lost a couple of times myself, but now let's give each other a chance. It's time to put away the harsh rhetoric, lower the temperature, see each other again, listen to each other again, and to make progress, we have to stop treating our opponents as our enemies. They are not our enemies. They're Americans.

They're Americans. The Bible tells us to everything there is a season, a time to build, a time to reap and a time to sow and a time to heal. This is the time to heal in America. OK, that was Joe Biden in his, quote unquote, acceptance speech after the election was called in his favor by the Associated Press. And he said this grim era of demonization needs to end, which is somewhat ironic because from even before Donald Trump got into office, his entire term, they spent the entire four years of his presidency demonizing him, trying to remove him from office. And then Biden said now is the time to unite and heal.

He even used a biblical passage from Ecclesiastes, I believe. I guess the obvious question, Travis, is how are unity and healing even possible with how diametrically opposed the views are in this nation on issues? Such as abortion, such on the definition of marriage, of what is morality, what is immorality, or even as we're seeing in this election cycle, even whether the constitutional freedom of speech is still in full force in this country. Those rousing clips of calls for unity and a kumbaya, they're superficial at best. And I think probably more along the lines of the truth is they're hypocritical. His whole campaign was based on the fact that he is not the demon Donald Trump. And that's what people were voting for, is not Donald Trump. Many in his own party wanted Bernie Sanders, not him.

He's kind of like the Consolation, and they have to get used to that and then demonize Donald Trump. In fact, going back years now, we've seen how intersectionality and tribalism has fractured and divided this country and sliced it up. So when he says, let's build our unity on the basis of the fact that we're Americans, people can't even agree on what American stands for anymore. They're even calling into question the entire founding of this country and the legitimacy of this country.

They want to rewrite the Constitution. So on what basis then are we Americans? What is it that unites us? So from the departure of the Judeo-Christian worldview and the foundations upon which this country was established, since that's all been abandoned, it is impossible in a pluralistic society like this, and one that has poured fuel on the fire of division, especially racial division and division between men and women. Now you can't even, you've got to fracture genders now, so there's no longer a gender binary to male and female. Now we're going to fracture into all kinds of made up categories and demand acceptance of those and demonize those who don't accept it.

It is every man doing what's right in his own eyes. So there's a complete fracturing of the mind and the will and the heart of this nation, and it's been many on the left who've been fanning the flames of that. So there is no basis of unity anymore when they've abandoned a transcendent standard of universal, absolute truth. This is the seeds of relativism that have been sown for a long time in this country. In universities, colleges, it's trickled down into the school system so that from grade school through junior high and high school, generations have been groomed to accept this fracturing narrative. So this relativism has gone to seed, and we're seeing it now. There is really no hope for unity in this country with such a divisive worldview on the left. Just exemplified so much in critical race theory that we're seeing so prominent today that you're racist if you're white, you're privileged, you're in power, and all the splinter groups, the identity groups are the oppressed.

It's one against the other. You're racist and you're systemically oppressive, even if you don't even realize it. That will make a lot of people feel good. What Biden said, they'll think, oh, yeah, here's our uniter as a president.

But the reality is, there'll never be unity, at least in our national realm, with the worldview that that's being pushed today, as you so well said. Travis Allen is our guest today, the senior pastor of Grace Church in Greeley, Colorado. GraceGreeley.org is the website, and we'll return it for this next break of the day right here on The Christian Real View. I'm David Wheaton.

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You can also order by calling toll-free 1-888-646-2233. That's 1-888-646-2233 or visit TheChristianWorldView.org. Think biblically and live accordingly. That's what we aim to do in whatever topic we cover on The Christian Real View radio program. I'm the host, David Wheaton, and our topic this week is unity. What is the basis for unity in the nation and the church?

Let's get back to the interview with Travis Allen, senior pastor of Grace Church in Greeley, Colorado. Now, I want to get to really the crux of what we want to get to today as we talk about what is the basis for unity. As we talked about in the nation, there is none, but in the church there is, and this is where the hope for unity can be.

Ephesians chapter 4, starting in verse 1, says, Therefore I, Paul writes here, the prisoner of the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience bearing with one another in love, being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There are many passages in Scripture that command Christians, the church, to be unified. How can this unity be achieved within the church, or how should it be pursued?

In light of the fact that you look at, let's say, for example, evangelicalism today, there are so many variations of doctrines and different trends that come and go with social justice, like the doctrine of election or the miraculous sign gifts and the charismatic movement and so forth. How do we have or achieve what Paul is calling for here with unity? In the passage you read, that's exactly where my mind goes as well about talking about unity.

Paul calls it, in Ephesians 4-3, the unity of the Spirit. So true unity is a spiritual unity. It goes to the deepest core of what it means to be a human being. We are spiritual and we are physical. We are immaterial and material beings.

So God put us together that way. And the most essential part of us and the most basic part of us is a spiritual essence. So that's talking about our mind, our heart, our will, our affections, what we love, what we hate. That's what we are at our spirit and what we think about. So true unity is a spiritual unity and that can only be achieved by the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit of God. That's why it's called the unity of the Spirit. In our fallen condition, we are under the domination, the enslavement of sin.

And sin is a fracturing reality. Everybody's chasing the covetous impulses of his or her own heart. So in that fallen condition, even our hearts, what we chase from our hearts, Jeremiah 17 says the heart is deceitful above all things, desperately sick.

Who can understand it? So if the heart itself can't even be understood and known and it's sick and it's deceitful, even what we chase and covetous desires can't be trusted, can't be relied upon. So covetousness in the heart and the heart's desires in a sinful people cause everybody to go their own way. So it's a fracturing principle.

So it's totally destructive. It fractures, it divides, it separates. And that is the condition that we are born into. As Ephesians 2, 1 to 3 says, we're dead in trespasses and sins. We live in the passions of our flesh, enslaved to the desires of the body, the mind. By nature, we're children of wrath. So we cannot overcome our own deadness.

We can't. We cannot make ourselves alive. So true unity, which is a spiritual unity, that's only going to be brought about by the supernatural work of God's Spirit. God's Spirit must cause us to be, like Jesus tells Nicodemus in John 3, we must be born again.

That's language that comes from Ezekiel 36, verses 26 and 27. The Spirit is at work there to give us a new heart. He puts a new spirit within us. He removes the dead, cold heart of stone from our flesh. And he gives us a living heart, a heart of flesh, a heart that's sensitive to spiritual things and responsive to his work, his ministry, listens to, you know, gives us eyes to see, ears to hear. And then it says in verse 27 of Ezekiel 36, God says, I will put my spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes.

Be careful to obey my rules. So the Spirit brings us underneath that one transcendent, universal, absolute standard of God's law, his statutes, his rules. And we with the Spirit, the indwelling Spirit, we want to walk in those ways. We want to be careful to obey. I'm just unpacking that term unity of the Spirit.

What is that about? Paul doesn't leave anything to guessing. When he goes on, he says in verse four, there is one body and one spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call. One Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

So what Paul has just described there are elements of, you might say, a systematic theology. He's outlined the unity of the Spirit in theological categories. One body, that's ecclesiology.

One spirit, pneumatology. One hope, eschatology, doctrine of last things. One Lord, that's our Christology. The doctrine of Christ, our Redeemer. One faith, this is the faith that's once for all delivered to the saints, all in this authoritative doctrinal standard we call Scripture.

So we're talking bibliology there. One baptism, that's our soteriology. One God and Father of all, that's our theology proper. So Paul is telling us what the unity of the Spirit is. It's a doctrinal theological unity. Well, I had never considered those categories in verse four, how much that lays out a systematic theology there. The reality is, Travis, that people come down with differences in understanding some of those different doctrinal categories.

Is there a criteria or categories of primary issues, secondary issues? What issues should we be united around? And what issues should there be separation from if others don't hold to a particular doctrine of beliefs?

That's a really good question. And what Paul is laying out here is how unity is pursued in the context of a local church. So when you think about all those points of theology, of systematic theology that Paul lays out, calling that the unity of the Spirit, we know that the Godhead is of one mind on all those doctoral points, right? So there is no point of disagreement among the members of the Trinity about any point of doctrine. Ecclesiology, pneumatology, eschatology, they're not sharing the five views of the rapture among them. Each person in the Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, they agree on every fact, every jot, every tittle, every bit of what we might call theological minutia. They all three agree. They are in unity and harmony. So when a person is born again, God plants within them, basically stamps on their new heart that they've received, fundamental agreement about all things that God believes, all things that God holds to be true, we will hold to be true. So it is the process of maturing. It's the process of growth which is conducted in the local church that we come to share a true unity of mind with God.

So there are certain things, for instance, you mentioned primary, secondary, tertiary points, you know, doctoral, where we have to have doctoral agreement. Obviously, no Christian denies Christ. No Christian denies the Trinity. No Christian denies that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone and Christ alone.

These are things that the Bible teaches, but every true Christian from the moment, from the inception of his new birth, when he puts his faith in Jesus Christ, he holds to those things to be true. He believes Christ is divine and human. He believes that God is Trinity. He believes that salvation is by faith and not by works.

That's been implanted in him by this new nature that he's been given from God. Now there are points on which he may not understand and so over time and over years of growth and sanctification, he comes to more and more clarity about what is been truly planted within him. That all happens in the context of a local church. That's why it says in verses 7 through 11 that Christ gave these gifted men to the church, apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, teachers. The apostles and prophets are the ones who are laying the doctrinal foundation, which we find recorded in the New Testament.

So their ministry has been executed, it has passed, it's completed. We have it all contained in scripture. Evangelists, shepherds and teachers are now given to the church. Evangelists, I believe they're being, you know, we would call them today apologists, people who give a defense for the faith and are able to articulate the gospel well and teach others to do that. And then shepherds and teachers within the church, they're all given to equip the saints for the work of ministry. It says in verse 12 of the Visions 4, and it says there, it's for the building up of the body of Christ, until, verse 13, we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children tossed to and fro by the waves, carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness and deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we're to grow up in every way into him who is the head into Christ. So when Christ is fully formed in us, which is going to come at our glorification, finally at our glorification, that's when sanctification ends, when we're glorified, all sin is removed, all weakness is gone, all frailty is gone, and we are brought into his presence, we don't like him because we see him as he is, we're going to become of one mind with the Triune God, we'll have no points of disagreement, no points of misunderstanding, everything will be completely unified and whole. That's the joy of a local church, is to be able to go down into the depths of the things that truly unite us and study those things and bring them from the depths to the surface, that the deep unity that we truly share in Christ is brought to the surface and manifest and seen in the context of the local church. You're listening to an interview with Travis Allen, the senior pastor of Grace Church in Greeley, Colorado. I hope you listen to that segment carefully because he said a lot as he pulled out the basis for unity in the church, and it has to be a unity based on the truths, a sound interpretation and understanding of Scripture.

Stay tuned because we have one more segment with Travis right after this break. I'm David Wheaton. Who is George Soros and what does he believe? Are you religious? No. Do you believe in God?

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I'm David Wheaton, the host. Our website is thechristianworldview.org. Our topic today is what is the basis for unity in the nation and the church.

Our guest is Travis Allen, the senior pastor of Grace Church in Greeley, Colorado. Let's get back to the final moments with him and then we'll follow it up with some summary comments on this topic of unity. Travis, give some examples in Scripture of certain characters in Scripture where there was unity despite maybe some differences. Are there some examples like that where believers were getting along despite that they saw some issues differently or are there none? Maybe you could point back to Paul and Barnabas having a sharp disagreement about the taking of John Mark on their missionary journey. I think you could look to that and say that the two of them were not of agreement and one mind on that decision and so Paul went with Silas and Barnabas took John Mark and they separated and there was a sharp division between them.

So either one was wrong or the other was wrong or both were wrong. Even in that disagreement, God brought about his sovereign purposes. So it's not our perfection that accomplishes God's work, it's his perfection that accomplishes it.

And he uses all of our little imperfections and all our little struggles and all our little challenges to help us to accomplish his good purposes. So you can see like even in a division on issues of ecclesiology and what baptism is, is it a sign and seal of the covenant and a replacement of circumcision for God's people like Presbyterians believe or is it what Baptists believe that no, it's a sign, a symbol of the deep saving work of Christ, the death, burial, resurrection of Christ that a true believer understands and ascends to and believes and they believe that baptism is a picture of that death, burial, resurrection and unity with Christ of the Spirit. That's divided Baptists and Presbyterians. And yet we could affirm one another as Christians sharing deep fundamental agreement on the nature of the gospel itself and the nature of salvation by grace through faith and Christ, the solas of the Reformation, the doctrines of grace. We believe those things and share those things, have them in common. So we can affirm one another as Christians, but we can see like Paul and Barnabas, we're going to have a sharp disagreement on those things. And so we'll let Baptists be Baptists and Presbyterians be Presbyterians and God will do his work through them even in their imperfections. But once we come together, well, we know that the Baptists are right, right?

When we come together in heaven. So, but that's just one example. There are other examples of division. You can see in Galatians chapter 2 where Paul calls out Peter's hypocrisy. And so sometimes there's a disunity based on sin. We can't just say every time we disagree or something like that, that it's okay to just quote-unquote agree to disagree. Like we have to, I think we have to pursue those things in good faith with one another in a spirit of charity and brotherly affection, but really try to get to what the Bible says. Because the Bible, you know, God doesn't stutter when he speaks. I think we need to study hard and use sound hermeneutical principles to help us to get to the truth of Scripture.

Mm-hmm. Unity comes around the truth of the word. That's what I've heard you say loud and clear today. Travis, you're an excellent guest who can go from the muck and the mire of the divisiveness of politics and election fraud and so forth and bring us really to the heights of true biblical unity. We appreciate you. We just pray all of God's best to you and Grace Church and Greeley and your family as well. Thank you for coming on the Christian Real View today. Thanks, my brother. It's just a good, good time to talk with you again. Such a privilege and an honor. Okay, I hope you gained from the interview today with Travis Allen. Again, you can hear his sermons at gracegreeley.org.

And if you missed any of the interview today, we usually post the program within a few hours after it airs live on Saturday morning right at our website thechristianrealview.org. So just a few summary comments on unity. Let's start with unity in the nation. I don't see any chance of unity in this country when we have such diametrically opposed values at this present time. The Democrats see America as illegitimately founded, as racist, as sexist, as oppressive toward anyone who's not white or male and heterosexual and Christian. The Republicans don't see it that way, so they're worlds apart on just the vision of what America represents. The Democrats demand abortion, homosexual marriage, transgenderism.

It's forced on everyone through the law, in public education, in the corporate boardrooms, corporations, businesses around this country. And the other side says, no, we want freedom for people to have freedom of religion, freedom of speech. So there's just a diametrically opposed worldview there that just can't be joined because there's no shared common values between them. What's the solution? Can there be unity in the country?

How could that happen? Well, one way it could happen is if one side could persuade the other side that their values are actually correct. But I think that's impossible with how far the parties and the political worldview is away from each other in this country. What happens from here is one side is either going to have to defeat and dominate the other side, just run over them and just put them out of power forever, like you see in a state like California, where it's just perpetually Democrat ruled, or the country is only going to become more divided and actually more violent. There's either going to be some sort of separation or split in this country where people relocate to areas of the country where people who think and want to live like them are living. Or there'll be some sort of domination and violence and maybe even civil war because this split, this division is not coming together. And just Joe Biden saying a few things about unity is not going to make it so.

As a matter of fact, Michelle Obama, after Biden was ostensibly elected, did listen to what she tweeted. She said, let's remember that tens of millions of people voted for the status quo. She's referring to Trump, even when it meant supporting lies, hate, chaos and division. We've got a lot of work to do to reach out to these folks in the years ahead and connect with them on what unites us. So if you categorize people who support Trump and who support conservatism as supporting lies, hate, chaos and division, that's not a unifying message.

That's a the other side doesn't get it and needs to be re-educated. But let's end the program on a good note on where there can be unity, and that is in the church. When churches take seriously, as Travis was talking about, the systematic theology of God and the various doctrines of scripture, when they don't get distracted and go down rabbit trails of trendy topics that they think are going to attract people to church, but instead focus on the whole counsel of God and how to understand scripture the way God meant it to be understood and applied. When we unite around common biblical doctrines, there can be unity. And that's where we get this this piece of heaven on earth where people from all backgrounds, whether your race or your socioeconomic level, it doesn't matter in the Christian faith.

Once you're saved, then it's a matter of pastors especially, but also regular Christians digging in and accurately handling the word of truth. That's the good news that we can have unity in the church, even if unity in the nation seems a very long way off. Thanks for listening to the Christian Real View today. Until next time, let's be united by thinking biblically and living accordingly. The Christian World View is a weekly one hour radio program that is furnished by the Overcomer Foundation and is supported by listeners and sponsors. Request one of our current resources with your donation of any amount. Go to theChristianworldview.org or call us toll free at 1-888-646-2233 or write to us at Box 401 Excelsior, Minnesota 55331. That's Box 401 Excelsior, Minnesota 55331. Thanks for listening to the Christian World View. Until next time, think biblically and live accordingly.