No Reason To Hide Interview Part 2

Let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith. In the USA of today, victimhood has become a path to power.

Mandates are used by tyrannical authorities as control mechanisms, and critical race theory is tearing apart the fabric of our nation, especially in our schools. Today, more in a series about the decline of a once great country. Stay with us. From the Moody Church in Chicago, this is Running to Win with Dr. Erwin Lutzer, whose clear teaching helps us make it across the finish line. With Larry McCarthy, here is Pastor Lutzer to discuss further his new book, No Reason to Hide, Standing for Christ in a Collapsing Culture. Well, this is Pastor Lutzer.

Thank you so much for joining us today for this special edition of Running to Win. We're discussing my new book, No Reason to Hide, Standing for Christ in a Collapsing Culture. And with me today in the studio is Larry McCarthy, a member of the pastoral staff here at the Moody Church. Now, Larry is an African American. And Larry, your parents came to the Moody Church in the 1960s, and they were not universally welcomed, were they?

Oh, no. It was a unique time for them and for the church. My parents, they came to saving faith because they attended a Wednesday night Bible study down in Sankey. And the gospel was preached, they heard the word, God touched their hearts, and they responded. And so they wanted to come back to hear more of the word, and they started to bring us. But the congregation wasn't universally accepting of a black family coming to Moody Church. I mean, people would get up and move when they sat down in some places in the sanctuary, or they'd ask questions like, don't they have any churches where you live?

Yeah. And that, of course, is a very sad part of our history. But looking at it more optimistically, this brings a smile to my face.

And I'm sure it brings a smile to your face as well. Your parents, first of all, they did not allow that to keep them from faithfulness at the Moody Church. The second thing I want to say is this, they never dreamed that someday they would have a son who would be on the pastoral staff at Moody Church. Neither did I.

That was not an ambition that I had either. But I can tell you one quick story. You know, we used to sit in the sanctuary as kids and pass notes. That was the high tech of the day.

We didn't have cell phones. You pass notes. And after one of the services, this gray-haired lady walks up to me, and I thought, uh-oh, I'm in trouble. She's seen us passing notes, and she said this to me, Pastor. And when you're in this sanctuary, you want to listen to what God has to say, because you never know. You could be preaching here one day. She said that. Now, you know, that came back to me the first time that I had the privilege of preaching here in the pulpit of the Moody Church, but I remembered that. I was just grateful she wasn't going to rat me out to my parents.

So I think I didn't think about it much after that, that she didn't immediately go tell my parents. Well, you've been a great blessing to the pastoral staff here and to the whole congregation, and of course you've preached here many times now. And so we're so grateful. Now we're going to be discussing the issue of race. Specifically, we're going to try to cover chapters four, five, and six of my book. So we have a very, very broad waterfront that we're going to try to cover, and so we're just going to touch some high points here. But before we begin to discuss the chapter about diversity, equity, and inclusion, which I maintain actually works against us when it comes to race relations.

It is not helpful. I want to say that several months ago I attended a seminar taught by a young black pastor on why it is so difficult to talk about race. And I found his seminar very helpful, and one of the points he made, Larry, was this. We don't have to agree on everything to celebrate our unity in Jesus Christ. And you and I, of course, are going to agree on most things, the important things, of course, but we may have some disagreements, but at the same time we celebrate our unity in Jesus Christ.

And I'm going to point out later that indeed the ethnicities, even in the New Testament, still remained despite the fact that they were all members of the body of Jesus Christ. There's something else I want to say as we begin, and that is this. As you know, and you've read the book, Larry, I believe that diversity, equity, and inclusion actually works against race relations, as I've already emphasized, but at the same time I know that there are many people who believe that it is very important to level the playing field, so to speak. So it's with that that we begin, and one of the points I make is this, that diversity, equity, and inclusion actually causes us to divide. We begin to see each other in oppositional terms, and as a result of that you have two categories of people. You have the oppressed, and you have the oppressors, based on skin color.

But furthermore, even before we get to that point, the governor of Oregon suspended requirements for students to demonstrate writing, math, and proficiency in high school, and he says that he does this to aid black, Latino, Asian, and Pacific Islanders, and he wants to make sure that they pass, and so standards are actually lowered. Your response to that, Larry? That was, this is a much needed discussion, first of all, but the conclusion that diversity, equity, and inclusion, where we are now, has evolved into a compromise of competency. I think that's a very cogent argument, a very needful thing to say. The perspective that I would offer, however, is that there were, in a time in this country, certainly where there were intentional acts of discrimination, particularly in the employment field, where there were certain strata, certain jobs, certain positions that people of color just weren't going to be offered, and so a lot of the early affirmative action responses, either from the courts or from state legislatures, were in response to those deliberate acts of discrimination. I think you do a very good job of saying now, but look how it's evolved, that when we talk about these buzzwords of diversity and equity and inclusion, it comes with this compromise of competency, and in a way, its victimhood is now a path to power. Boy, you've put that very clearly, and by the way, your perspective there, I receive that, because I think that's a very interesting and necessary way to look at this.

This is really the pendulum going off the deep end, if we can put it that way. People have described it as the bigotry of low expectations, and it is actually an intentional way to avoid the question of why don't minorities do as well as others. Well, probably it's the school system. Probably it's because of the home, because of a number of different factors, but what we must do is to not lower the standard with the intention of saying that this is going to level the playing field.

Now – and we have to hurry. We still have two other chapters and we're barely getting into this one, but I read the book White Fragility and I have to say my reaction was very negative because what it does is it judges people on the color of their skin and not the content of their character. It is totally against what Martin Luther King taught because he taught, let's not judge people by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

This does the opposite. It speaks against whiteness. If you are white, you are an oppressor and if you deny it, it only proves the point. So what is whiteness?

Well, I read directly from the book. It is a belief in individualism, capitalism, democracy, meritocracy. The book goes on to say that we should be less white, less ignorant. Well, how do we relate to that? I believe frankly and I think you will agree with me Larry that it's possible to believe in individualism, capitalism, democracy and meritocracy without being racist.

I agree. The other thing that we need to recognize is that there is in this book the idea that we should have equal outcomes and that is a problem because if you have a family for example with four children, if you give them freedom, even they are not going to have equal outcomes. There are those who are going to exceed more than others. The only way that you can have equal outcomes is by tyranny where you mandate it and it comes down from the government or whatever and that becomes the basis upon which everything is supposed to come out equal.

Well, ask the people in Russia and China and see how that has worked out for them. The other thing is and I'm going to hurry here because I must summarize of course and that is I discuss what happens to truth. Carl Marx believed that truth was that which is believed and promoted by the oppressors.

So there is no fixed truth and what this leads to is disaster. Because I even point out – I mean if you can believe this but in Princeton University, they are teaching that mathematics is white because it insists on one answer to mathematical problems. I have to confess, I just thought that was comical.

It wasn't such a serious topic. I almost just wanted to laugh at that section that's suggesting that mathematics because it has absolute answers is somehow white mathematics and that approximation in mathematics. Your illustration about the bank was great, about how much you have in the bank.

Do you want an exact amount or do you – it's about this amount. I have my truth when I go to the bank and they have their truth when they go to the bank. And so what happens is a total collapse of rationality. As a matter of fact, it's in that context where I actually quote someone as saying, there are some ideas that are so absurd that only intellectuals believe them. But absurdity no longer is an argument against anything in our culture. Sometimes the more absurd an idea is, well, that oftentimes is a basis upon which it is promoted. It is almost promoted because of its absurdity.

Dr. Lutzer, would it be fair to say that as a culture, we have just abandoned the pursuit of truth? Yes, exactly. I – boy, Larry, I know we must hurry but I want to give this illustration and it goes back to what we were talking about last time where the self has triumphed. Yes. If you're lost in a city and you have a compass, you know which direction north is. Therefore you know which direction south is, east and west, OK? Yes. Before you're going, let's suppose however you have a magnet in your backpack and that magnet always causes the compass to point to you. Now you have no idea whether you're going in circles. You have no idea whether you're going east, west, north, south or encompassing the same area and that's where society is today because no longer do we have a true north.

Yes. We've abandoned the Bible and therefore we have even abandoned sanity and two plus two no longer always is equal to four. Now I'm going to be pointing this out next time when we talk about sexuality and that's going to be our topic. So let's hurry on.

The next chapter I have is still about the racial issue and that means we must cover this very quickly. I answer among other things the question of what do we say when we are told that America is illegitimate because after all this land was stolen from the Indians. Larry, since I've written the book, I have to tell you a story, all right?

All right. I was talking to a woman at a political event and she told me that she was in a cab and the cab driver was from a different country that did not have freedom. I won't mention the country and he began to criticize America and say, well, you know, this country was stolen from the Indians. So she said, well, why did you come here? Well, he said it gives me freedom. It gives me the opportunity to succeed. So here you have it.

It reminds me of a Muslim demonstration in which I once saw a sign that said we will use the freedoms of the constitution to destroy the constitution. So you have people coming here. Now the bottom line is simply this. We must recognize that all countries are birthed in war, in land grabs. Obviously atrocities were done to the Indians. At the same time, there were people like Jonathan Edwards ministering to them saying that they should be educated giving them blankets, giving them food. You had Christians who understood that we had to be kind to them.

But you know, one of the things that happens with the left is this. They never compare America with other countries because if you do, America comes out looking good. And I quote a professor at one of our universities who says she wants all of her students to be depressed because America stole the land from the Indians. Now there are all kinds of things that God is going to have to sort out in the day of judgment but at the same time, we recognize that America was founded on some very important principles and as a result of that has risen in the world in a place of prominence and people are willing to sacrifice life and limb to get here.

If we're that racist and if we are that evil and if we are illegitimate, why are they doing it? Robert Chisholm I like the illustrations that you use in the book and certainly America has some dark parts of its past and its history. America didn't invent slavery as you so eloquently point out but we ended it and I think that's the thing that we have to push towards now is that the ideals of the constitution and the hope that it provides in terms of the freedoms and the liberties that our system of government provides. I want to applaud you for addressing straight on this issue of critical race theory because I thought it was a very balanced discussion. You aren't suggesting that we should never ask the question as to whether or not something has a disparate impact on one ethnicity or another. You never say that we shouldn't ask the question but what you say is that critical race theory does blot the real issue and that's the issue of sin.

Robert Chisholm Oh my Larry, the clock is running down. I have to say this that critical race theory, there's no problem obviously we should teach slavery and what happened in America's history but we have to do it in a balanced way. We also have to point out that we've come a long way. We have to recognize that America is always going to be imperfect but the problem with critical race theory is where one group is blamed and the other is exonerated when all of us are sinners. If I might put it in a simple sentence that I write in my book, the problem with critical race theory is that it keeps tearing apart what Jesus died to bring together.

Simple passage of scripture, Colossians chapter 3 verse 11. In Christ there's neither Jew nor Greek and they had their differences, bond or free, Scythian, barbarian but they are one in Christ. So you have these various ethnicities and Greeks didn't stop being Greeks and barbarians didn't stop being barbarians but yet they had a unity in Jesus Christ and I discuss this in the book.

I give examples also from the differences between the Arabs and the Christian Jews regarding the land and so what we must do is to simply see all of this in perspective. Now Larry, we were supposed to cover the next chapter but I'm going to leave that for next time and that is regarding propaganda. We're going to be taking that very quickly and how language is used today in propaganda. It's very important for us to understand that but for today the most important thing to emphasize is that we actually do not have a skin problem as much as we have a sin problem and the answer is to come to the foot of the cross together and then ask ourselves the question, what can we do together to improve our neighborhoods, to bring about biblical justice and to move forward and that's the question that we have to answer and as long as we think to ourselves that we must divide as critical race theory tells us without any hope of any reconciliation, we'll never get anywhere. Well I'm so glad that you joined us today for Running to Win and I want to encourage you once again as I did last time, call your friends, invite them to listen because next time we're going to be speaking briefly about propaganda, how language is used in propaganda but I'm also going to be asking and answering the question, what should parents say to a child that comes home from school and says mom and dad, I think I'm transgender, what do you say to them? These are the kinds of questions I answer in the book No Reason to Hide, Standing for Christ in a Collapsing Culture and for a gift of any amount and we'd like to emphasize this, this book will be yours and if you get your copy of No Reason to Hide directly from the Moody Church media, you'll receive a unique invitation to a live town hall conference call and I'll have an opportunity to share my heart with you about what is going on in the culture, about how we should respond to the culture and how we can represent Christ wherever he has planted us. Now I need to tell you also that the book No Reason to Hide at the end of every chapter, I give an example of someone who stood against the culture, someone whom we honor because no matter how difficult the culture may become, we need people with the courage to say as Martin Luther did, here we stand, we can do no other. My desire is that we will represent Jesus Christ well wherever he has planted us. No matter where you are today, you can be blessed of God if you live with your convictions and gladly accept the consequences. So next time, propaganda and the sexual revolution.

Until then, we'll see you next time. Pastor Erwin Lutzer with Larry McCarthy discussing No Reason to Hide, Standing for Christ in a Collapsing Culture. Next time on Running to Win, how government propaganda is redefining language itself as people groups shout their slogans and memes rather than work together. The Bible says woe to those who call evil good, but that's only half the job. The other half is to take that which is good and call it evil.

You speak about how the Christian left is compromising the gospel. The acceptance of same sex marriage, buying into the whole LGBTQ community and doing so Larry under the guise of love. Love can be evil. When Adam and Eve sinned in the garden, they didn't stop loving. They just started to love all the wrong things, lovers of pleasure, lovers of money, lovers of themselves. And this generation has to be told and to understand that love and truth are not opposites. They are not enemies.

So just because something is loving in the eyes of the world, it doesn't make it right. Herein is love, said Jesus, that you keep my commandments. Don't miss this crucial third program in a series of four. The book No Reason to Hide will be sent as our gift to you when you give a gift of any amount to support Running to Win. Just call us at 1-888-218-9337. That's 1-888-218-9337. Online, go to rtwoffer.com. That's rtwoffer.com. Or write to Running to Win, Moody Church, 1635 North LaSalle Boulevard, Chicago, Illinois, 60614. This is Dave McAllister. Running to Win is sponsored by the Moody Church.