Building Healthy Friendships Among Men

I spent my whole life grilling food, never smoking food. It was too much work, right? Until I finally got a smoker. And I went, oh my goodness, I've been missing out. And it takes a lot more work to smoke something than it does to grill it.

But like, it's the same thing with friendship. You can spend your whole life doing the easy thing, but if you'll take the chance, you'll realize there's something much greater out there for you. That's Tommy Woodard, and he's joining us today along with his buddy and comedy partner, Eddie James, here on Focus on the Family. Your host is Focus president and author, Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller. John, you know, there's a sign on my desk that says, laugh. You've seen it many times.

I have. And I love it. And I think humor is such an important ingredient in the tools that God gives us to kind of get through life and to enjoy life and to have fun. If you don't have a sense of humor, you might want to just turn it off right now. Because we are going to have fun today. And I think humor comes directly from the heart of God.

I think Jesus demonstrated humor in a number of ways. In fact, studies show it can help your immune system. It can help you sleep better. It can help your memory and not just the physical attributes. It helps you spiritually.

It helps you emotionally. And I'm excited to introduce our listeners and viewers to two great guests today. We've got, as I said, the skit guys and their husbands, fathers and founders of the comedic duo. They've been lifelong friends and they've written a book called Smells Like Bacon. Perfect title. The Skit Guys Guide to Lifelong Friendships. And we'll encourage you to stop by our website to check out the details. And the link is in the show notes.

Eddie and Tommy, welcome to Focus. Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks for having us.

Looking forward to it. Now, it's interesting, as I was reading through the book and the prep that the team put together, your guys' relationship started from a funny origin. I mean, one of you stole the other one's girlfriend.

Yes. That usually doesn't mean a lifetime relationship between two guys. So what happened? He was dating a cute girl. I was interested. He was a year older.

So he had facial hair. You've made up for that. I've made up for it.

Lost it up top. Got it right there. Well, that's kind of fun. I mean, right there. But I mean, seriously, how did that spawn into a relationship between the two of you?

How did you turn that tide? And, Eddie, you must have a lot of patience. Well, you know, yes. I can remember even in the ninth grade hallway when Jill said to me, I think I like somebody else. And I literally said, no exaggeration, I said, well, there's nothing I can do if you don't like me anymore.

But please tell me it's not that sophomore in the musical that you're in, that Tommy guy, that Tommy Woodard. That's exactly what I said. And she says, it is.

And I don't know, somewhere in that year. Yeah. I mean, listen, Jill's really smart, right? I mean, she loves Jesus.

She loved Jesus. And like after about two weeks of dating me, she was gone. So it didn't last. Yeah, it didn't last. And then I got to go, aha.

And then, you know, I think misery less company. We were two jilted guys and, you know, so. Yeah. So Jill brought you together. Yeah. All right. Well, that's good. Do you stay in touch with Jill? Either one of you? No, the answer is no.

I started our 30 year reunion, but no. So in the book, you talk about these four circles of friendship. Who wants to describe them?

We would call them the concentric circles. You know, the first is, hey, you want to go have coffee? You want to, you just want to go do something. The coffee friend.

The coffee friend. I think it's very hard for, you know, especially in today's world, just guys just trying to go, you know, do something, you know? And so it's at least a break a barrier down to, hey, you want to go do this? You want to go have coffee?

You know, and just, you know, talk or just go do something that just seems, you know, what we both have in common to do type. But pretty light touch is the point. Exactly. Okay. Yeah. There's no pressure when you're having coffee with someone, you know, you don't, you don't have to. I mean, and if it doesn't work out, you don't go get coffee with them again.

You know, it's not complicated. It's like a ghosting. Yes. Physical ghosting.

Don't text them back. Yeah, yeah. Yes.

You'll see them at church. Yeah. We need to. Yeah, we do.

We do need to get some. Yeah, that was good. That was good.

That was good. Yeah. But at that coffee or whatever it may be, that's when as you're talking, all of a sudden you figure out, oh, do we have more to talk about?

Is there, is there something here or not? You know? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So that's the hangout or the. Yeah, the hangout. Yeah. Okay. What about the acquaintance?

That is when it's like, there's some good koinonia as we, as we call it in the Christian circles, there's some good koinonia here. Yeah. You know, it's like, okay, this could become something. And, and I know like for, for couples that usually pairs them off a little bit to like our wives get together.

You know, I mean, they're doing well. We seem to be hanging out well. Like I like this guy's company. We're having a good time. So you start with the acquaintance and then you're laughing, you're having a good time and it kind of builds from there. Yeah. That's where it, you know, at the coffee, if you're talking about stuff and hey, I like this, you like this, hey, you want to go to the game together.

You know, I got an extra ticket, you know, that kind of turns into the acquaintance and you're looking for kind of those opportunities to hang out. Man, I, have you given it that much thought, John? Away. That may be one of the problems here is that, you know, I don't think guys think about this that much. And oftentimes people will say that men are kind of loners. Yeah.

We like to do things on our own. We don't necessarily gravitate toward group. Yes. Do you guys, is that true?

Do you think that? Oh, I think it takes work. So you got to think about it. I mean, I think, yeah, I mean, I think you have to, but it's anything that is worthwhile takes work, you know? And so you've got to put some thought to it.

Yeah. Eddie always quotes, I don't know who it is about quiet desperation. I think it's Walt Whitman, but you know, most, that sounds good. Even if it's not, most men lead lives of quiet desperation. And I, and I think that's, I think there's a lot of truth to that. You know, the women will talk, the women will try, you know, there's a bonding there. But we can just sit back and look at our phones.

Now we have phones. We can just sit back and kind of look at our phones and we could maybe make a little bit of small talk. But for whatever reason, it is that quiet desperation just kind of sits in there.

And we'd rather just sit with that than really try to exert ourselves and just give a little bit. It's so true. I mean, Jean and I, Jean's, you know, she's got three or four Bible studies going every week. And she's got girlfriend coffee time. And she's going, I'm so busy. I'm like, well, just say no.

I mean, I'm the practical guy, right? Just stop doing it. I can't do that.

These are my friends. I don't even register that. What do you mean? And there's there's a bit. I think we wouldn't admit it. There's a bit of social anxiety. Like, I'm afraid of how it's going to go. It's not going to work out and it's going to take some work. But the truth of the matter is, if you'll take that chance, I think nine times out of 10, you leave going. That was great. OK, so we got acquaintance circle, hang out circle.

What are the other two? Circle of honor. Those would be the people that you'd go. I want to do life with these people. When you see them, you just love them. You want to honor their life. You want you want to be a part of their world, their kids world.

You go to their kids games. I mean, there is an honoring that happens of I will go out of my way to be a part of their world just as they're being a part of my world with my with my teenagers. Like, I love watching their friendships and I love just kind of watching to go. Is this a seesaw friendship? Because sometimes they can meet somebody and it's not a seesaw friendship. It doesn't go back, forth, back, forth.

Somebody just sits and they're like up in there going, are you ever going to give me a bounce, you know? And then those friendships don't last. Right. But when you have honor friendships, there's a good seesaw friendship going back and forth. It's reciprocated in such a way to go. We love doing life together. And I know that's a cliche word, doing life together.

But there really is something beautiful when you when you see that in action. And that sounds pretty tight, that circle of honor. But yet you go to the garden friendship. Yeah. So so there's like in that circle of honor, like that's who you would say, hey, we're out of town this weekend.

You might keep an eye on the house. Like, I trust them that much. But do you give them a key? Yeah. OK.

I think so. Yeah. Hey, would you watch the dogs? You know, don't worry about the cat. But yeah, watch the dogs. Yeah.

Cat lovers do not respond to this. OK. But then the garden friendships, that's another level.

And that is going to be you're not going to have very many of those. Yeah. Define what that looks like. It's David and Jonathan. It's that depth. It's I love you more than I love my soul. You know, I'm there for you no matter what. You know, there are limits to that circle of honor. You know, you may not call that circle of honor at 2 a.m. and go, hey, I got to talk. It's the garden friend you're going to call. Yeah, it's Jesus ushering Peter, James, John further into the garden.

You know, come over here, even even though they fell asleep. And, you know, but there was an ushering of of three other people to come closer to my pain. So it's closest of the close. Yep. It's the and it's the funnel.

Everything that we just described. I mean, that's a funnel. And it does get smaller.

You know, it does get smaller when you go. I love you so much that I want that if there is pain, if there is hurt, if there is habits, if there's hangups in my life, I want to usher you into my garden of pain to just be there. Pray with me. Help me through this. Whatever those things are. You describe in the book the example of the the paralyzed man in the in the New Testament.

How does that fit to friendship and what happened? Oh, because it's one of the I mean, it's a beautiful thing. Like, here's these guys. Right. And and, you know, the the guy we don't know his name. We call him Matt because he's on a mat. But so Matt can't he can't get anywhere. And his buddies take him to Jesus.

Right. Of all the things we can do. The best thing we just take our friends to Jesus. And when they can't get in, you know, which is so like church. This is my pew. You can't sit here. No one's making room for this guy.

No, you should have got here earlier. You know, and these guys, there's they don't take no for an answer. They go to whatever extreme it takes.

And then what I love. And there's always that one guy. Oh, there's always that one guy. You know, we can't get in. Yeah, I got an idea.

Let's go down the roof. I mean, you know, they didn't think this through. Right. It was a bunch of guys. It wasn't women. Yes. They got on the roof and everyone.

What do we do now? I don't know. I just thought this would be better. You know, I got an idea. Yeah. And so down below, you know, it was, you know, Jesus is talking and sharing.

And all of a sudden, you know, there's just little dirt pebbles that are just fall falling down. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And they're like, man, bad squirrels, you know, something's going on. But like they lower him down. And this is what's beautiful is the scripture says, seeing their faith.

Right. Not seeing his faith. Seeing their faith. Jesus says your sins are forgiven, you know, and so this intimate friendship, like we don't understand the effect that our faith has on our closest of friends. You know, that is really cool to think of it that way. And again, I think for us men, we've got to break out of that loner mentality.

You're kind of convicting me here. Modern day situations. Why does social media make it so difficult for us to to have deeper friendships?

I mean, I think I know the answer here, but you wrote the book. I think we compare a lot. I mean, I think I think men and women both. We look at pictures and we can get in just this just stupor of paralyzed fear and almost compare and contrast to go, oh, my goodness, they have a better than us or they would never want to be my friend. And and we extrapolate these stories of what one picture looks like and we will create a whole story for it. And I think it immobilizes us and just paralyzes us in such ways to go and they'd never be my friend or that looks so fake.

I don't know about them. We construct our own stories, our own thoughts, our own ways on these things. I was just going to say I hadn't thought about this, but, you know, I think of it typically for women. But men have a real well of inadequacy.

Oh, so I hadn't thought about it like that. But when we are comparing ourselves, we're inadequate. We're not good husbands.

We're not good. Our bodies. You know, when you see a picture of family on the beach and everything and they look so happy, you're like, I didn't take my family to the beach and and look at that. Yeah, that's interesting. Look at that dad throwing his kid up in the air like that. And how the photographer, you know, you don't know if he caught him.

You don't know if he fell there. But but we we create so many stories in our heads and we are men. We're fixers. We're doers. We want we want to make great. And then we look at these things and we don't have the kind of money they have.

We don't we can't do it. They look at their house, you know. And so I think a lot of that plays a part. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's comparing.

I think there's also just the convenience. I mean, social media is fast food friendship. Right.

I mean, and that's what we do. Our diet of fast food. If you don't stop and eat a good steak, you don't know what good food is. Right. And you're going, man, we love Jack in the Box, man. That's the best burger in and out with it.

It's really good. I'm going with the not good food. Right. Oh, yeah. You know, my favorite tacos are from Jack in the Box.

You're like, then you've never been to a real Mexican restaurant. Right. I mean, that's the thing.

Social media is this counterfeit, convenient friendship, you know, and you're just missing out. Yeah, it's so true. You describe an illustration in your book that caught my attention about going to the movies together. This is really funny. Yeah.

What happened? Yeah. We we we love movies. We've always loved movies. I don't know what year it was, but we we were we watch it. We watched everything in high school. Yeah. You know, I mean, you know, I mean, that's when PG-13 came out and everything. But we went and saw beaches and with Bette Midler. I had never seen.

That's because it was not a movie made for me. Yeah. Yeah.

And they didn't even call him chick. No, back then it wasn't. Right.

But but I think it was nominated for some Academy Awards, or at least the song was or something. So beaches and you decide, hey, let's go. Sounds like fun.

Let's go see. And it was about friendships. So we watched this movie.

It was it was the two of us, maybe an elderly couple and maybe three women in the theater. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so we watch beaches and spoiler, you know, one of the best friend dies.

Right. And so it's so. But you and I, I mean, we're buddies and we're crying like we are.

We are ugly, crying, crying, ugly, crying. We're sitting next to and one of us looks over at the other as the credits go right and go. Should we walk out that exit? Let's go out the back exit so nobody sees us.

Yeah. But it was one of those defining moments in friendship, though, because he's the guy that invited me to church. September 17th, 1987, he invited me to church. He said there was pizza. I came for cheeses.

I got Jesus and it changed my life. And so, you know, then to watch a movie about best friends and and coming from the background of a home life that I came back from. I mean, we got in your truck and it was like it was this moment of like, you're my best friend, you're my best friend. And we're we're saying these things as dudes going, I love you. You're my best friend. And and when when that just is infused with Jesus, it's a beautiful thing.

Yeah. I will never forget. I will never forget that night. It was like to be that vulnerable and to go, you are my best friend. I love you.

And I'm so thankful that you're in my life. Yeah. That was a huge moment. You have cried in front of your wife at a movie, right? I cry regularly.

My wife doesn't cry, but I cry. That's good. Yeah. And we're not saying that if you want a great friendship, you have to watch Beaches. No, not at all. Let's hope not.

No. OK, well, Eddie James and Tommy Woodard are our guests today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And we're going to encourage you to get a copy of their book, Smells Like Bacon, The Skit Guys Guide to Lifelong Friendships.

Stop by the show notes for your copy or give us a call. Eight hundred the letter A and the word family. You know, I could so relate to this next question because my son Trent, he kind of struggled a little bit in hugging when he was little. So I had to kind of teach him how to hug. You guys had a similar conversation observing each other. I don't know which one of you was the non hugger, but what was going on here? I'm the hugger.

I was a non hugger. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and gosh, this was in college freshman. Yeah. Yeah. This was in college.

Trent is now a great hugger. Just to set the record straight. He made it.

He made it over the line. Looks like. Yeah. I mean, I did. Eddie make it.

He did. OK, good hugger. Like I come from a family of huggers, you know, I mean, that's what you do. You know, I mean, it's hey, it was a great time.

Good to see you. Let's hug. You know, we hug when we see each other. We hug when we leave. You know, that's the way it works.

Covid was rough on us because you can't hug, you know. But we're we were somewhere. Gosh, it was outside of the Y. YMC. Yeah. We were working out. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And we were getting ready to go to California, I think, to be interns. So we felt like we had to muscle up. Yeah.

Get that beachbody. Another guy thing. Yes, exactly. And I think I'd given you a hug. And then I was like, what was it? We were sitting in the car, right? Yeah.

My truck. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then and I was like, something's bothering me. And you identified it.

Yeah. And I and I came from a very sarcastic home. Not not a not a touchy feely home. And I'm like, what is wrong with you? What is.

And like, we're guys. It's like, well, I don't know how to say it. I don't know how to say it. And I just say it. Well, you just say it. Yeah. And then here I am, college age guy saying to my buddy, you don't hug me back. Why don't you?

Why don't you hug me? Yeah. It doesn't even come out of your mouth. Right. You know. And I'm like, what? What? What?

What? I hug you. I hug you. No, you don't.

You don't. It was like a cold fish. Yeah. You know, hugging a big deal of jello. Yeah. You know, and but so what was happening in that moment, we didn't realize it at all, was I was voicing a felt need. You know, I mean, I had a felt need that I needed to know that you care about me and that you'll give me a hug back.

Yeah. And when you think about friendships, what's so amazing, you know, if you are willing to learn through a friendship, I think back to that moment to go on. Yeah, I was pretty closed off. I was pretty defensive.

I had walls. I could use humor to escape any intimacy. I could use humor to not to never really give of myself, but make everyone like me. I can people please my way through this.

I can, you know, do a little song and dance and make people laugh. But I don't ever have to give of myself. And to be confronted that by from a buddy, you know, still a teenager to go, I guess I don't hug. I guess I am afraid of what that early, early age to start realizing those things. A hundred percent.

I'm so thankful. Let me ask you. You mentioned the book, how important conflict is in a relationship. So most people and some guys would be conflict averse. Right.

It's good to avoid. Tommy, good for you. Raising your hand. Okay. So you didn't hug, but he didn't like conflict.

So why is why is conflict a positive ingredient in a relationship and how do you make it positive? I mean, we've been friends for over 30. Yeah.

30 years. And I we have in our book, it's a chapter in a book and it's something that we say to each other. It's called going through the Tunnel of Chaos. No one likes to go through the Tunnel of Chaos. Tunnel of Love is a beautiful swan. Yeah. You sit in the swan. The Tunnel of Chaos is a goose.

Yeah. It's a it's an ugly goose goose with splinters on the seat. I mean, it's a horrible ride. You don't want to get on.

I avoid it at all costs. It's really great at confrontation. And and one of the things that helps us is being able to say, hey, we need to go through the Tunnel of Chaos together, you know, because you start the conversation that way. Yeah.

Because, you know, what's come in, you know, too many times we try to ease into confrontation. Well, you know, you passively, aggressively say something. Yeah.

Kind of meat mealy toast your way through it. Yeah. You're not saying it. Yeah. And so when you go, hey, I need to go through the Tunnel of Chaos with you, you both might be like, ah, OK, let's do it. Yeah. Tell me, in fact, an illustration you mention in the book is a time, a period of time where you were struggling with drinking, I think. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And Eddie kind of came to your rescue. So that's a great if you don't mind sharing it. That's a great illustration of how a good friend will help. Yeah.

I grew up Baptist and you didn't drink. You know, I mean, and I was in my 30s before I started, you know, right. And it was it was a very quick. But all of a sudden, oh, you know, I'm in trouble here, you know, and my buddy would would be the guy. Like once I had this moment of where the Lord really came in and was like, you got to you got to stop this. You know, it was I went straight to him and said, hey, I we need to talk about this because I can't do this.

You know, that's where those friendships are so critical. It's exactly right. I picked up the phone the more like garden friend. I drove the garden.

I drove home from the airport drunk and I went to bed. I woke up the next morning and I promise you what was in my head was let the morning bring me joy of your unfailing love. And God just broke me with that. And I went to my wife and I said, I've been dishonest with you about this because I was hiding it. And then the next thing I did was I picked up my phone and I called Eddie and I said, hey, I had a problem.

I don't ever get to do this again. And there's much more to my story. You know, I didn't it doesn't just stop right there. If you have a struggle with addiction of any kind, you know, it's not one prayer and you're done. You know, there's more to the process. But he's the guy that I went to immediately and said, I need that, you know. And it's so good, you know, and, you know, focus is here for people that are struggling with any type of addiction. And we got counselors, so we'll give details all the way. Yeah, always moving from that seriousness to bacon. And another addiction, your friendship addiction to bacon.

How did bacon weave into your relationship? My my buddy moved in. My wife and I lived in a parsonage, right? Which is you're a youth pastor. I was youth pastor. So it's the parsonage the pastor didn't want. If that lets you know.

OK, so it's desperate. Yes, we had an incontinent cat. And so it smelled like old pastor and cat urine. That's what this house really, really, really did. So, Ed, why in the world did you go say, right, why would you move there?

I moved from California back and I and I needed a place to stay and I didn't know what to do. And I was a little burnt out. I was I worked, you know, from 18 years old to probably 25 at that point. I was at a big church and I was I was tired. I didn't know what was next. And so, hey, and there was the mother in law room in the back of the room, the evangelist. OK, I was in the back behind the garage in this little evangelist room.

And that's where I stayed. I was also on the Atkins diet in the mid 90s. Dr. Atkins came out with a thing of don't do any carbs. No, just eat protein. And so God bless Tommy and Angie and you would go to work and you would go across the street to the church.

Right. And I would make bacon like a whole slab every morning for breakfast. What you need to know is I was losing weight.

It was it worked for bacon was making me lose weight. And the smell had to be better than the cat. Well, it kind of covered it.

It kind of covered it, but it just permeated in the walls. Bacon was all in this house with all the other smells. And so your dear wife, sweet wife, sweet wife was like, Tommy, help me understand. Why does our house smell like bacon?

Yeah. And all I could say is that's the smell of friendship. I mean, what am I going to say? You know, that's the smell of friendship. And so so I mean, the whole title of the book smells like bacon is that's what friendship smells like to us. You know, there's a whole thing there. We're right at the end. But for people to get the rest of the story, get the book, because you do talk about how friendship and marriage needs to work harmoniously.

And sometimes it doesn't. Yes. I will say this. A 30 year friendship.

It's hard to find men or women who have 30 year friendships. Like the only thing you can compare it to is a marriage that lasts that long. And so the the secret behind this book is, yeah, it's a great book for guys.

It's a great marriage book. Yeah. Like, you know, that's good. If you practice these things in your marriage, it's fantastic.

You know, and again, I mentioned we're at the end. So I got to ask this question for that guy who feels like that lone wolf. I mean, what are some ways they can break that habit and and find that coffee friend and then move that to something deeper and trust?

I think a lot of guys lose hope and and trust in other men because, you know, they don't find that relationship that works for them. So speak to that guy. I would encourage you to say yes, just to say yes to the opportunities. I don't know if we're supposed to do everything alone, but that may sound so simple. But to just say yes to an opportunity of friendship, whether it's a church and you see somebody like maybe this could work. I know it feels awkward.

I know we're not in high school anymore. But to just go, you know, even if you're in a small group and there's just someone you feel like you connect with to just you want to go get some coffee. You know, I know it's an awkward thing because women can go, let's go have coffee and it just works right. But for a guy to say it to another guy, hey, you want to, you know, you want to go have coffee, but if you don't, it's cool.

You know what I mean? It feels a little awkward. If you say it like that, nobody's going to coffee with you. Maybe let's go build a go-kart.

That sounds a little better. Let's work on my car. Golf, you know. OK, now we're talking.

But whatever those things are, find those opportunities just to say yes, because you you may be in the midst of a wonderful, beautiful friendship that happens. Man, this has been so good. And I hope people, men particularly, but their wives and girlfriends as well are kind of sparked here to look into this in a deeper way. Smells Like Bacon, the Skit Guys guide to lifelong friendships.

You can pick that up right here. Focus on the family. Help us do ministry. If you can make a gift of any amount, we'll send it as our way of saying thank you. If you can make that monthly, that's great because it helps us do ministry here. We're ministry based and supporter based, so it all works.

And you get a great resource to strengthen your relationships in your sphere of influence. It's been great. Thanks for being with us. Oh, this is super fun. Thank you so much. And follow up by getting a copy of Smells Like Bacon, the Skit Guys guide to lifelong friendships written by Eddie James and Tommy Woodard.

We've got details in the show notes or give us a call. 800 the letter A and the word family 800-232-6459. Next time on Focus on the Family, Crystal Evans Hurst will encourage you to see life a bit differently. Maybe instead of lamenting your mess, you just need to own your mess and say God knows what he's doing. On behalf of Jim Daly and the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once more help you and your family thrive in Christ. Use your resources to help families thrive for generations to come. Find out more at FocusLegacyCommunity.com. That's FocusLegacyCommunity.com.