Yes, You Really Can Change - Chip Ingram

You want to change. You try hard to change, but you just can't.

Is there any hope? Gary, one of the big things people think is they focus on their behavior or on their emotions. That's not where change happens. Change always begins with the truth, but then it begins with how you think.

It's the renewing of your mind where real change happens from the inside out. Welcome to Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" . Today, teaching pastor and CEO of Living on the Edge, Chip Ingram gives help and hope if you've tried and failed at changing your behavior.

Yes, You Really Can is our featured resource at FiveLoveLanguages.com. It's subtitled, What to Do When You're Spiritually Stuck. Gary, I think that describes a lot of people today who have tried and tried to kick some bad habit, and they've kind of given up hope of ever changing. I tell you, some other folks have given up hope. They're married to someone who has tried and tried and tried to kick a habit. They haven't been successful. The spouse is saying, I'm tired of this.

You keep on telling me you're trying, and I can't see much evidence of it. I'm excited about this topic today. Well, let's meet Chip Ingram. He is teaching pastor and CEO of Living on the Edge, a pastor for more than 30 years. He's the author of a lot of books.

He and his wife, Theresa, have four grown children, 12 grandchildren. You can find out more about him and the book, Yes, You Really Can Change, at FiveLoveLanguages.com. Well, Chip, welcome to Building Relationships. It is great to be with you all.

Thanks so much. You begin with a story about Bobby, who came up to you after service one Sunday. Tell us about him.

It's one of those very unique experiences. He was a young guy, kind of late 20s, pretty successful, had prayed to receive Christ maybe seven, eight months earlier, lived out of town. And so about once every three or four weeks, you know, he would come visit the church, and he got involved in a church, a men's group. I mean, all the things that you would say, this guy is making great progress. And I saw him walking down the aisle right after I'd spoken, and this had happened multiple times.

He's always going to have two or three questions. We're going to talk a little bit, probably connect later by phone. And he walks up to me and with a big smile and he goes, hey, I just really want to thank you for all the help you've been to me these almost a year. I said, well, great, Bobby.

That's fantastic. He said, but I got to tell you that, you know, now that I'm a Christian, I'm in men's group. I'm in God's word and, you know, I'm doing the things you're talking about, but I still have some struggles.

I got some problems at work and everything isn't perfect with my girlfriend. So this just isn't working for me. And I said, what? Yeah, this Christianity is just not working for me. So what do you mean? I said just what I said.

I thank you so much. I think I believe in God, but I just don't think everything's not the way I want it to be. So I'm quitting and I tried this. No, no, no. You don't understand. This is normal. It's a progress.

It's growth, etc. And he smiled, shook my hand, gave me a hug and said, I'll see you later. And there was no I mean, that was it.

And Gary, I think the thing that hit me was no one had ever been that direct. But I think there's a lot of people, if you ask them, is your faith or Christianity, your relationship with Jesus working for you in terms of your perspective? I think a lot of people would quietly say, no, not really.

Yeah, I think you're right, Chip. You know, we just assume that because people are involved in the Christian things related to the church, for example, that, you know, they're really walking with God. And sometimes that's just not the case. There's kind of a progression of people who are trying hard to change things, to be different, and they do good for a while and then they fail. And eventually, does that lead to this sort of wanting just to give up or?

Yeah, I think it's twofold, Gary. I think one, especially maybe with all the prosperity teaching that's crept into all churches, not just maybe ones that are like, you know, the name it and claim it or those sort of things. I think there is an expectation that somehow if you do sort of the spiritual activities, I mean, everything should be up and to the right, you know, great relationships, upwardly mobile, never have problems, never have a down day.

And then I think the progression you see with many people is, you know, I love that. I was talking to a gal, she goes, you know, I was really trying to muscle through the Christian life. In other words, I don't feel like praying, but I'm going to pray.

I don't want to really weed bang on. And so I think there's a lack of understanding of how life change really occurs. And some of the outward things maybe change pretty quickly. But the insecurities, the greed, the comparison, you know, those deep inner things that God wants to change. They try hard and fail, try harder and fail. And then I watch a pretty significant group of people that just basically stop trying quite so hard and just fake it and live with this quiet silence of, you know, maybe as much energy going into a peer like a good Christian as opposed to really experience, you know, the kind of life we're talking about. Yeah. Well, tell us your story, Chip, because you kind of experienced this yourself, right? Yeah, I really did. I came up around a group that was, I mean, super helpful.

And one of their great strengths was the disciplines. And I grew up in a church that didn't teach the gospel, came to Christ at 18 and had this amazing joy. And no one ever told me anything, but they gave me a New Testament that was pretty easy to read.

I read it in the morning, read it at night. And God was changing my life. I just had, just my desires changed, my joy changed and I went away to school and I met a really good Christian group.

And they super helped me. Like, here's how to have a quiet time and then here's how to memorize scripture. Then actually you should be in a Bible study.

And I did all those things and being pretty desperately insecure and a people pleaser and not being aware of all that. I don't think it was conscious, Gary, but it was like, you know, the people that really get the strokes around here memorize a lot of verses, go to Bible studies, share their faith. And I didn't know what it meant to be legalistic, but it took me maybe about two and a half years to pray for an hour every day, memorize hundreds of verses, whole chapters, be in a Bible study, lead a Bible study. And I literally became a Pharisee and a self-righteous jerk. And my joy was gone and I felt like I had an extra job. You know, I was going to college and playing basketball, but it was like, oh my gosh, I've got to pray for an hour. I've got to read. And the life, the joy, the supernatural transformation literally evaporated. And I know I had a brief experience that jolted me out of it. I have time to tell a quick story.

I'm thinking I'm being as committed as I've ever been and God must be really pleased. In my senior year, I bumped into a co-ed and we were good friends, no dating relationship. But I liked her and at least she used to like me. And we bumped into each other right in the middle of the, called the quadrangle. And we talked a little bit and she said something and I quoted a verse and she paused. She kind of tilted her head and looked back.

She goes, you know, Chip, I met you when you were a freshman and you were a really neat guy. You were just so fun to be around and you had such joy. And I remember thinking, now I'm not a Christian, but if I ever wanted to be one, I think I'd like to be like you. She said, I don't know what happened to you, but now every time I'm around you, I feel like I'm less than, like I don't measure up. Like God and you are down on me. And if you are what it means to be a mature Christian, I know one thing for sure.

I would never want to be one. And then she walked away. That was a wake up call.

Wow, that would wake up anyone. Well, we'll hear the rest of the story later on, okay? Absolutely. Where it went from there. Why do you think it is that so many Christians experience failure and then failure and they try hard and they fail again and again? You know, I think maybe two or three different reasons. I think one is spiritual ignorance. I mean, as all the best of intentions that this group had in discipling me, their focus was on my doing and on my spiritual activity instead of on my identity. Spiritual transformation is about understanding who you are in Christ and whose you are and living out of that. I think the second reason a lot of Christians, and I think this is what people are experiencing now after the pandemic, is spiritual isolation.

The American mantra that is so deeply embedded that you can do this on your own. It's me and God and my Bible. And even if you're in a group of some kind, spiritual transformation scripturally requires in-depth, vulnerable, deep relationships of the heart, where we minister to one another and there's safety to share your deepest struggles, and there's an accountability of people that won't allow you to keep behaving or acting in ways that are harmful to you. And I think that the third one would be simply what I just call spiritual myopia. I think the American dream that says, are you happy?

Is your life working out for you? I don't think the average believer realizes that there's so much at stake. A Christian's life who does not change is an oxymoron. And when you are a believer who is living in a way that discredits the gospel, the implications of that hypocrisy are... I was one of those people who grew up in a church around people who said they were Christians, and I completely rejected the Christian faith because their lives were no different than mine.

In fact, they said one thing and lived so completely other. And so I think kind of spiritual isolation, spiritual ignorance and kind of this nearsightedness, this thinking it's all about me, which I think was Bobby's issue, candidly. It was, you know, if this doesn't make my life wonderful for me, why do it?

As opposed to, you know, this is God. Today on Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, we're talking with author and speaker Chip Ingram of Living on the Edge. Our featured resource is the book Yes, You Really Can Change. You can find out more at fivelovelanguages.com.

That's fivelovelanguages.com. Chip, here's a quote from your book. Quote, Jesus did not come to tell you how to be the best version of yourself. He came to make you new.

What do you mean by that? Well, what I mean by that is that I think sort of the self-help industry and some of the prosperity teaching has developed this narcissistic view that Jesus is a means. In other words, he's my self-help guru and he's going to help me be this best version of myself as defined, unfortunately, by me. And the fact of the matter is, is that the gospel says if any man or if any woman is in Christ, you're a new creation. I mean, it's radical.

It's a completely new person. And Jesus takes up residence in our life and he has an agenda for us. And the big agenda is to make us like himself. And, you know, I think this idea that how can Jesus make me a better me as opposed to how can I walk with the living God in a way where he transforms me completely from the inside out where I become more like him. And in reality, by nature, we lean toward that first idea, right, that first idea, right, of terms of, you know, I want to be the best person I can be, you know, I want to be who I am. That's the natural bit.

Yeah, and I think apart from, you know, we talked about this a little early, I think apart from some good teaching, you know, it's in the water, it's in the air. I mean, everywhere it's about, I mean, the self-help industry is a multi, multi billion dollar industry. And I think a lot of that is seeped into the church where, as you stated, you know, a Christian's goal somehow is to be happy or you speak, you know, you are the expert on the marriage relationship. How many marriages are not working because the big goal is, well, isn't it that I'm to be happy? I mean, isn't that the whole deal? And you helped me and my wife realize it's in giving the other person what they need, that way better than happy, you get the supernatural joy.

Here's something I think that's related to that. What does it mean to live from God's approval rather than for his approval? Well, when I shared a little bit about my scripture memory, Bible study, sharing my faith down deep, I think what I was trying to do was earn God's approval. And I think there's a lot of believers who intellectually would say, how are you saved? Oh, I am saved by grace through faith.

You know, it's all what Christ has done for me. And then we come to know Jesus personally and we have this new birth. And I think instead of realizing the same way that you are saved is the same way that you have to walk, a switch gets flipped kind of maybe back into our family of origin. And, you know, when you're a good kid, you get rewarded and when you're a bad kid, you get punished. And so I just thought if I memorize a lot of verses, if I do everything God wants me to do, then he would love me.

And when I wasn't doing well, he probably doesn't love me. And the scripture teaches the first three chapters of Ephesians give us this really glorious picture that the moment that we are forgiven of our sins and the Spirit of Christ enters into our life, we are literally yanked out of the kingdom of darkness. We're placed in the kingdom of his beloved Son. We're sealed with his Spirit. We're redeemed. We're wanted. We're chosen. We have a future. We have a history.

We're secure. And then he prays at the end of chapter 3 after telling us all that new relationship, this in Christ position. And he prays that more than anything else, we could grasp the height and the depth and the length and the breadth and know the love of Christ. And then he says, therefore, walk in a manner worthy of him. And I think living out of I am already loved, how do I say thank you out of desire, out of intimacy, instead out of duty and performance.

That was the night and day experience for me, Gary. I think the same thing is true for any of us, that there is a period in life, often at least, when we are converted, we do begin to walk with God. But exactly what you described, you know, the Christian life becomes things that we are supposed to be doing. And we do them well, but we don't have a lot of sense of satisfaction out of it.

And we feel like we're not doing it well enough. Whereas in reality, if we allow him simply to work in our lives and point out to us what needs to be done and give us the power to do it, it's freeing. You know, it's liberating.

It's not duty. It's like a real love relationship. You want to do things that's going to enhance the life of the other person on a human relationship. And so you want to do things that are pleasing to God because of your love for him and your gratitude for what he's done.

Yeah, I mean, you're talking about a huge thing here. It really is, Gary, and I think so many people, you know, listening were saying, well, I want that to happen in my life, but, you know, I just feel like I keep doing the same old things and I read my Bible, I don't get anything out of it. Or maybe even I don't have much desire to read it.

If you don't mind, can I turn the table since you are a little older than me and I know wiser. How did you go from, you know, there's part of it that's discipline, right? I mean, a lot of mornings I don't feel like reading my Bible. A lot of times I don't feel like praying, honestly. But it's in choosing to do that out of a, I want to love you, God speak to me, that I experience those breakthroughs. How do we help people kind of make that change from the aughts and the shoulds to the desire?

Yeah, you know, I don't know that there's one answer or one formula for anyone, but I tell you what happened to me. I finished college and I had the sense of, you know, man, I'm ready to go now. And I went to Colorado Springs with the Navigators and did their summer training program. But what I learned there was not in the, quote, spiritual things that I did, what I learned was in the print shop. And I was assigned to run a folder that takes large sheets of paper and make them into small booklets. And they gave me instructions on how to run this folder.

I said, OK, got it. I worked all day long and couldn't get it to work. And the next morning they gave me more instructions and I worked all day long and couldn't get it to work.

This went on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, four full days, eight hours a day, and I couldn't get it to work. And then I was having my time with God on Friday morning and I read John 15, 5. I'm the vine, Jesus said. You're the branches. You stay connected to me, you're going to bear fruit. Without me, you can do nothing. And I wept and I said, oh, God, I cannot even run a dumb folder without you. And after I got through weeping, I said, God, I'm asking you to give me the wisdom to run this folder because I realized I can't do it, you know.

And I went in and that folder just, you know, it's like God ran that folder the rest of the summer. And that's a lesson I never forgot. It was a changing point in my life. That it's not my efforts, my abilities, and all of that, you know. That the Christian life is simply depending on God for everything, every day. And we're just walking with Him and letting Him accomplish, you know, in your life and through your life what He has in mind. So, yeah, I think the experience may be different for different people, but ultimately it does come to what you're talking about. It's realizing that we are already His children and His children forever. And we don't have to try to, you know, get there. We're already His child.

And now it's a matter of developing the relationship with Him, being honest with Him about your thoughts, your feelings, and all of that. Why is it, you think, that even the church, it seems like a lot of times, we're not expecting to see much change in a person when they become a Christian? You know, we just think, well, okay, they're going to start coming to church now.

Why do you think that's true? I think maybe there's, like you said, maybe a number of reasons, but I think one of the reasons is when lots of people are not experiencing this life-giving power and are faking it to some degree and have struggles and you look to the left and you look to the right, I think the standard, instead of being, this is Christ-likeness, this is the power that you possess, this is what God expects and desires. I think we sort of said, you know, something, I think down deep no one can really live that life. I mean, lack of faith, we really don't believe it. And so, you know, hey, you're a guy, God understands, you're probably going to log on to porn once a month or so, which 50% of Christian men, according to surveys, do.

Or, you know, hey, what the heck? Everyone's going to drink a little bit too much now and then. Or, you know, I don't think God can really expect us to reserve sex for marriage. And I think it's been this gradual dumbing down, if you will, where giving one another a pass because it is a challenge and it really, you swim upstream, if you will, when you begin to live with a commitment to, I really want to love God and I'm committed to living a holy life. That can be a very lonely, challenging, difficult place. And I wanted to just tag on to something you said, because I remember that conversation with Bobby when he decided to quit the Christian life.

Basically, he was having a conflict with his girlfriend and he couldn't get it resolved. So it was, well, it's really, really hard, it's difficult, it's painful, so I quit. And I just want to say, I think what you shared, because that has been my experience in pastoring for, you know, 35 years, a lot of people, if you're hitting rock bottom, if you're struggling, if it's not working, and you've come to the end of yourself, that was the turning point for me. And I think instead of being discouraged like, this isn't working, I can't stop lusting, or I can't stop comparing myself, or I can't, like you said, getting honest and broken. That is, you know, the Lord is near to the brokenhearted, saves those who are crushed in spirit. I think that's that vulnerable place where you really do say, God, I can't. And I think our Heavenly Father's leaning down going, wow, I was hoping you'd get here a lot sooner.

I want to help you, I love you. Yeah, yeah. You know, I look back on my life, and I'm glad I learned that early, you know, without Him I can do nothing. Otherwise, you know, you work hard and you take the credit for all the good stuff you've done, you know. And I think one of the reasons, Gary, I wrote this book was, these are so common.

I mean, after, you know, I've pastored little tiny churches of 35 people in rural areas and churches of thousands of people in other areas. And what I saw is, whether it was a conservative area or a liberal area, multicultural, is these themes are so true all across the board. And people are struggling. I think they sincerely want to experience Jesus. They want to please Him.

But, you know, if you keep hitting your head against the wall and you don't know how it works, and don't know what you need, or don't even understand, sometimes when you're hitting your head against the wall, this is normal. You know, I mean, read about those disciples. They had some real struggles. But, so I'm praying that we can give some people some practical ways that are rooted in truth that help them break through and experience the love of God and His transforming power. Is this the kind of book you think could be used in a small group in a church, you know, you talked earlier about the value of being in a group and working with people. Just working through this chapter by chapter, discussing being open and honest with each other, is that one way this book could be used?

Yeah. In fact, we designed some small group material to go with it. And what I found was even meeting with someone one on one, it's interesting, Gary, we've had lots of people go through this content in small groups that's been super powerful. And then when the pandemic hit, I did something I'd never done before.

You know, I was stuck like everyone else and I was supposed to go to China and everything's canceled. And I literally went on our broadcast and I said, if you've never had anyone mentor you or people I'm sure have asked you a lot, you know, will you disciple me? I'm not always sure what they mean. But I do know there was a bricklayer who met with me every Tuesday morning for about three years that processed life with me and didn't just teach me the Bible. But, you know, I could share my heart and he taught me how to meet with God and hear his voice. And so I invited people, if you want to meet with me, I'll never talk more than 10 minutes. And I filmed it and I said, you know, if you'll do this for like 19 or I think 21 days is the research to build a habit. And we called it Daily Discipleship with Chip. And I literally walk people through this content every day and just ask them to give me 10 minutes on the other side and provide a little PDF for them to work through. And it's available right now and they can get it anytime they want to go on a journey.

And it's been really exciting that to put your arm around people and walk with them and have them do that with other people. That's available on our app or website. If people are thinking, I'd like to meet with someone every day for 19 or 20 days and learn how do you work through these issues? Thanks for joining us today for Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" . You can find out more about your love language or our featured resource by going to fivelovelanguages.com. You can listen to the stream or download the podcast right there and link to the book by author and speaker Chip Ingram.

You hear him on the program Living on the Edge. His book is Yes, You Really Can Change. Find out more at fivelovelanguages.com.

That's fivelovelanguages.com. Chip, we're talking about change over time, obviously. It doesn't all change overnight. Can you give us an overview? What's the process of transformation, of becoming more and more like Christ?

Let me see if I can do maybe, like on ESPN, a 90-second quick overview. Change always begins with the truth, and so chapters 1, 2, and 3 of Ephesians are the truth about you. Then it opens up with a command to walk in a manner that your belief and behavior tells the same story.

And then it's interesting that the first place it goes is to begin with deep relationships that are other-centered, with all humility, gentleness, patience, bearing with one another. And then the text says, transformation process, it begins in connected relationships, and then it focuses on where's the power. So in chapter 4, verses 7 through 10, it talks about what Jesus accomplished, that he defeated Satan and death, the penalty and the power of sin. And then he says change happens in a supernatural community. Verses 11 to 16, he'll talk about the role of the church and leaders and equipping people. And then in verses 17 to 24, he talks about our personal role. We have to put off those things that we know are wrong and those lies that we believe, have our mind renewed, and then put on or literally go into training on those areas that cultivate Christ-likeness.

And then the last part of that chapter, 25 to 32, has five specific training stations that in the book I go through and kind of help people go into training. So I think, Gary, one of the big things people think is when they want to change, I think they focus on their behavior or on their emotions. And that's not where change happens. Change always begins with the truth, but then it begins with how you think. It's the renewing of your mind where real change happens from the inside out. Well, it's a powerful journey.

And yeah, I can see how working through the book and with the help on the app would be very, very helpful to anyone, any Christian who wants to walk with others or even walk with one other person through that. Now, we're not simply talking about changing bad habits. I mean, full-on addictions of one sort or another, I mean, can be broken, right?

Absolutely. There's a whole chapter, in fact, on Right Now Media. You know, we put some information up and they'll send us something and they'll say, the number one message that people go to that we put up living on the edge is how to break free of a destructive lifestyle.

And it really is. We've got, you know, you get those great emails, as I know you do, and those stories of people that have deep-seated addictions that are rooted in lies and they've tried and tried and willpower and sometimes recovery. And then what you help them understand is this is the lie, you identify it. And we have them actually write it down.

And then we put a stop sign, stop. And then you flip a card over and we say, this is the truth. For me, like I was deep-seated, I was a workaholic at a level that just possessed my life, born out of insecurity. And I mean, your background, you could tell me all the reasons how I got there and alcoholic father and you never measure up.

I took all that into my Christian life. I tried, I told my wife, I told people, I tried a million times to break. I won't work as much or I won't, you know, when I relaxed, I felt guilty. When I wasn't active, when I wasn't accomplishing. And I remember writing on a card, I feel like I must please everyone and exceed everyone's expectation in order to be an okay person.

Stop. That was the lie. And I flipped over the card and it said, I desire to please others like anyone else, but I don't need to. I'm loved, accepted, appreciated by God just for who I am. And then underneath that, I put a verse that talked about God's unconditional love for me. And that was a number of things. And I reviewed that, my wife and I, morning and night, because we were in marriage counseling at the time, early on.

And we both had alcoholic fathers and we both had various addictions. And it was in the identifying the lie, renewing our mind, and then going into training where specific activities, I literally begin to practice or some people call them virtues. I watched God's Spirit break the need to be a workaholic.

I saw God give me peace and learn to believe what is true about me. Now, I'm going to be quick to say, after all these years, under intense pressure, boy, I will watch myself. That's always a temptation and a default. And I have to kind of shake myself and say, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, wait a minute. I don't need to respond to everybody and everything.

And I still have those cards and still review them. I'm sure that in our culture, there are literally thousands of people who are Christians in the broad sense of the word. They've worked hard and they struggle with lust their whole life. And they just feel like I'm never going to be free from this. I'm in bondage to this. Can there be real deliverance from that?

Absolutely. I was one of those people. That was about two and a half, three years into my Christian life because I was committed not to be a hypocrite. And the external things changed. As I renewed my mind, my bad mouth went away. But my internal, even my behavior, my external behavior was righteous or holy towards women.

My thought life was a whole different story. And I remember trying, trying, trying, trying, trying, trying. And I still remember walking into my dorm room and telling God, I'm done. I can't do this.

I'm not going to be a hypocrite. And even though, you know, I'm not sleeping around and all the rest, my mind where I look. And in the midst of that, you know, the Lord spoke to me and I didn't have any big dramatic moment. And I had a fellow brother, you know, wasn't in isolation, who said, hey, you know, let me encourage you to try something. And I had no idea what I was doing. But I actually went to one of those navigator training programs myself. And in preparation, you know, I had this silent struggle with lust. And by now, you know, I'm actually doing a little bit of teaching. And now you feel even more guilty, like, you know, this beautiful coed you're teaching God's word to.

And then lusting for her, it was like, oh, my soul was ripped apart. And to get to go, if you remember, Gary, to one of those training programs, you had to have the topical memory system memorized, you know, all 60 verses. And so I was on the basketball team.

My roommate was a wrestler and we always had this sort of fun competition. And so he was on his way to one of these training programs and he left the room. And so I took all of his cards and I cut three by five cards and I wrote down all 60 verses and he was doing like a couple verses a week.

And so completely wrong motives. I decide I'm going to do a verse a day. I'm going to nail all 60 of these down word perfect.

And I'm just going to casually walk in and say, how's it coming, Bob, with your verses and then go through all 60 verses. And so I went nuts. I mean, I actually did it like psychology class.

It was very boring. I put my book up. I reviewed verses. I remember jogging to baseball practice, reviewing verses. And I mean, it was just I'll never forget that I met this beautiful co-ed who was very godly. And all I know is that if you lust for anyone, you feel guilty when you lust for a very godly woman.

It's really double guilty. And I came around the corner of the library. I still remember it was my 21st verse that I'd memorized. I saw her. We had a conversation. My eyes made eye contact only. We had a great conversation. I walked away.

And for the first time as a Christian, I did not lust for her. And then I started to head over to the cafeteria with the other basketball guys because we would sit on the bottom floor. And the top five floors were the girls' dorms. And they would walk past and we would, you know, eight point five, nine, three. I mean, it was terrible.

I mean, it was terrible. And as I started there, the Spirit of God, oh, I'll go to the other cafeteria. And what I want people to hear is I didn't know about mind renewal. But God's Word is powerful and active and sharper than a two-edged sword and piercing to the division of soul and spirit of both joint and marrow and judges the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

It's powerful. And when Jesus wanted to overcome temptation and the enemy, he spoke and quoted the Word of God. And those first 21 verses, I was free. I thought, what happened? I still didn't make the connection.

So I did all 60 verses. And all I can tell people is I didn't know enough because no one told me that mind renewal was the key to transformation, but it broke the power. And so the other side of this is, you know, I didn't go to that cafeteria in our day. You can't watch Netflix. You can't log on and you can't watch movies that stir your heart toward lust. You have to say no to the things that are bombarding your mind. Say yes to renewing your mind. And then you have to have a brother or if you're a girl, a sister that you can be totally honest with. And as you go through that process, I have seen countless men and women break the power of lust.

But it is available today. And I think it is literally paralyzing the effectiveness. If your thoughts aren't pure, you live with guilt and you live with guilt.

You're not going to be used by God, but you don't experience the power of God. This is Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" . Chip Ingram is our guest, the author of our featured resource. It's titled, Yes, You Really Can Change. Find out more at fivelovelanguages.com.

Again, go to fivelovelanguages.com. Chip, in the last segment, one of the things I heard you saying was, you know, it's the power of Scripture in the mind that God uses to change our hearts and our minds. But it also involves an application of that. It involves changing some things that we've been accustomed to doing.

You mentioned moving from one cafeteria to another cafeteria. Yes. And so it's God and we have a responsibility in this, right? It's not that God zaps us and does all this. We work with God. Yeah, I love the thought, and I don't know where I got it from probably some wise theologian, but only God can change a life, but he never chooses to do it alone. And, you know, God has, aren't we thankful that God has given us these lungs that we breathe in air?

But you know what, if I don't suck in the air, he doesn't do it for me. You know, it's a cooperation. And I think part of it is that it's that no yes proposition. You know, there in Romans chapter 12, verse 2, he says, literally grammatically, it's stop allowing yourself to be squeezed into the mold of the world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind that you might experience the will of God, which is good, acceptable, and perfect. And so I think there's a stop, and it's, you know, it's just like a person on a diet or an alcoholic not going to a bar. You've got to look at what information, what people, what relationships are feeding my flesh that says I want to lust or I want to drink or I want to please people, whatever it is. Then you renew your mind, and then you have to take a step on the other side.

What people, what experiences are positive in my life that help me do and become the man or woman that I want to become, but who Christ wants us to become? I always was, I had a guy who called me, and I didn't know him well, and I think he called me. He was a supporter of our ministry, and he said, can I talk to you? I said, well, sure. He goes, I'm scared to death, and I'm in a bad situation.

I said, what's that? He goes, well, I own a business, and I'm emotionally attracted, and I'm just about ready to have an affair. I've got three kids, four kids, I can't remember, and it would destroy everything, and I don't want to be there, but I own the business. This person works for me. It's very mutual, and we're like magnets when we're around one another. I mean, we look at each other. I find myself looking forward to going to work, and he goes, I see all the signs.

What do I need to do? I remember having the Spirit of God give me some insight. I said, you need to do whatever it takes to break this off.

He said, what do you mean? I said, I mean, if your right eye is causing you to sin, pluck it out. If your right hand is causing you to sin, cut it off. I said, now, obviously, Jesus is speaking in hyperbole, because you can sin with your left eye or your left hand, but I think what he's saying is be as drastic as you need to be to confront it, and I said, if that means selling your business, you know what? Sell your business.

You need your wife, your kids, your walk with God. He can give you another business, but don't take anything off the table. Be as drastic as you need to be, and that's one of those great stories where he did.

He literally probably incurred huge financial loss, but I'm still friends with him, and he's got a great marriage, great kids, and a great life. So I think you're right. There's times where God doesn't zap us, but he does speak to us.

Yeah, yeah, and we never regret making the right decision. Isn't that the truth? You know, Chip, as I'm listening to you, and I've gone through this book a couple of times, and I can't tell you how much I've underlined it. It was almost like I should underline the places that I didn't need to underline because everything else is so good, but what you just said brings up one of the points that we have to get to, and that is you say it's impossible to grow alone, and so many people who are struggling today are isolated. They're not plugged into the church. They're not connected for a lot of different reasons, and some of them are good. So what do you say about that? I believe isolation is where we literally die. It is impossible.

It's absolutely impossible. In fact, if you could go through all the New Testament and put it on a screen instantaneously, every single command, they're in the second person plural. I can find, I mean, maybe one or two, and the whole New Testament, it's you all love one another. You all honor one another. You all encourage one another.

God has designed this that we can't do it alone, but that doesn't mean just casual relationships. I remember studying in Romans chapter 12 where he says, Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in brotherly love.

And there's about 13 quick little staccato encouragements that are all commands. And what it really talks about is the real you has to show up and meet real needs in another person, and you have to do it in the right way with the right motive. And I don't know how to describe this to you except to say there's this level of vulnerability and intimacy, and you do it layer by layer, and you do it wisely with people that you can trust, but there's this I'm going to do life with you, with Jesus together. And I think every man needs a man or two or three in his life that they can do that with and every woman the same, and often seasons to do it as couples, but I think there's a lot of people that are muscling through, trying so hard, wanting to please God, feeling the pressure that they'll let down their family, let down the church, ruin their reputation, but life is a struggle because there's not, a quart of three is not easily broken. God gives us grace through His word. Yes, He gives us grace through good teaching. He gives us grace through taking the Lord's Supper and the baptism, but Jesus lives inside of other people, and often when He wants to hug you, He's going to use the body of another person in whom He lives.

When He wants you to know He understands, it's going to be through the look and through the eyes of a fellow traveler who cares, who doesn't judge who's for you and says, you know what? You're not alone. We will go through this together. I mean, even Jesus, I think on His last night in His perfect humanity, you know, you three, come stay with me.

You know, I'm over here duking it out. He was fully God and fully man, and He chose, but He needed Peter, James, and John. Guys, I need you to be with me, and if Jesus needed them to be with Him, how much more each one of us? And if you don't have that, I will just predict you will not live the life or experience the victory that God has intended.

Yeah. You know, I hope, Chuck, that church leaders can discover or perhaps rediscover that truth, because I think we have thousands of people in this country who go to church on a regular basis, but they do not have the kind of relationships that you just described with one or two or three other people in which they're really sharing life with each other. Even more tragically, Gary, I spent a good portion of my time with pastors. There are very few pastors that have those kind of relationships, and what I've learned is an anemic pastor who feels this pressure to be and to appear but doesn't have those is in such a vulnerable position, and it's tragic, and I remember making a decision as a pastor of churches of all different sizes, and I got where I literally didn't even look at how many people showed up at church, you know, because as pastors, you think, wow, you know, a few hundred people showed up or 10 more people depending on the size of the church, and a pastor's emotions goes up and down with, and what I did is I said, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to measure the people that are connected in small groups, and if that's up and to the right and we're making progress, and I'm going to track the people that are connected and serving because what you find is when people get together and serve and care, then they build relationships that are great, and those became my new metrics, and I thought, you know what? At the end of the day, it won't be how many people come to any church.

It will be what kind of people are leaving that church and making a difference in the world and the community. Chip, you and I both knew Howard Hendricks, and you mentioned something he said to you that you've never forgotten. Share that with us. Well, Gary, Prof, as we called him, had an incredible impact in my life. We're at a brown bag lunch with 10 other guys, and he says, gentlemen, get this down. God will never love you more than he loves you right now at this minute. There's nothing to prove and nothing to lose. And now once you get that, then what you need to say is, how do I say thank you for all that he's done for me?

And then he went on the board and he wrote objective. Who do you really want to be? Priorities, how badly do you want it? Schedule, where does it show up in your life on your calendar? And discipline, are you willing to stick with your schedule to follow the path, not to prove anything, but to express your love for God? And I was 28 years old after that brown bag lunch, and I drove to a Dairy Queen, and I sat down with a napkin, and I did something that changed the whole course of my life. Instead of my to-do list, I wrote a to-be list. And I wrote down, I want to be a man of God. I want to be a great husband, I want to be a great father, I want to be a great pastor, I want to be a great friend. And for whatever reason, I want to be in great shape. I don't know why I added that.

And I wrote those on cards, and I put them in my calendar, and since I was 28 years old, very imperfectly, I've gone by my to-be list and squeezed my to-do list in on the side. And it really changed the course of my life. Well, that is powerful. Well, I wish we had another hour to talk, Chip, but I'm going to encourage people to read the book, and you'll get, not only what we've talked about, you'll get a whole lot more. But thanks for being with us today, and God bless you as you contended the ministry God has given you. Well, it's a joy to be with you, and you get this a lot, but I'm going to keep saying it. Thank you for what you have done and what you are doing. It changed my life and my marriage, and I'm deeply grateful. Yeah, thank you, Chip. Isn't that great?

What an encouraging conversation. Chip Ingram is his name. You can find out about Yes, You Really Can Change at FiveLoveLanguages.com. Look for Chip's app. Just go to your app store and search Chip Ingram, I-N-G-R-A-M, and you can find out more.

Or go to the website, FiveLoveLanguages.com. And next week, how to help your children value and connect with the older generation. Isabel Tom will join us in one week. A big thank you to our production team, Steve Wick and Janice Todd. Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.